Moscow or Bust!

[felix8787]

Well Sculpto, now that things are out in perscective, it good that you know what is going on so far. I say IMO, whether you 2 wrote for a week, month, 6 months or a year, you are finally going to see your lady. I do hope the best for you and that things go well while you are there.

Have fun
felix8787

I leave to tomorrow for Kiev...

[ScottinCrimea]

I don't think I've heard so much rationalizing even from Pres Bush.

[Sculpto]

Billy,
Your latest post is actually pretty accurate regarding my state of mind.  In respect to the length of time we have been corresponding.. well.. she wasn't looking for a foreign boyfriend at all when I found her and her softening to the idea took a long time, probably the first three or four month of correspondence, and even then she resisted the idea of ever leaving Russia.  Life events that have occured since then have opened her eyes to alot of things I told her back then and she has acknowledged I was right about a lot of things.

I first planned to go to her in Tomsk last spring.  I had the visa in my hand.  But.. I work on commision and sales literally felll through the floor between January and April.  I remember when I told her things were not working out financially and we ended up talking for several hours on how the US economy is tied to the world economy and so on.  That is when she rubbed Siberian oil in my face and told me I should move there instead.  LOL.. and her next comment was.. "I weell come to you" and she started process on her end.. passport app, visa app for journalism..etc.. that was all moving in the right direction when her Father fell ill in late May and was diagnosed with cancer.  Everything fell apart after that and after she consumed her saving paying for her Fathers hospitalization she had no other choice but to go to Moscow, an offer which had been on the table for several months but she didn't want, but, finally agreed to because the money was a lot greater and she as able to get some sort of lump payment in advance.  I do not have all the details about exactly how everything worked.. she was too stressed to explain every single thing.. but.. that is what I understood.  So, it really hasn't been a case of a girl who was looking for a foreign boyfriend or husband waiting for a year.. it has been a case of a girl finding a guy who did not meet her previous expectations and the online relationship evolving over time into something that we both agreed we need to follow through on. 

As far as her current "party" atmosphere in Moscow.. I asked her about that because her lifestyle in Tomsk was not at all like that.  She told me since she quit her job because the boss is trying to extort her and she has about a week before going back to Tomsk she is going to have a little fun and enjoy being in Moscow. 

Frankly I probably "party" more than she does.  I still go to Rock n Roll shows, raves, Burning Man is always a possibility, I would love to go to Kazantip, I regret I couldnt make the Eclipse festival in Altai in Siberia this year.. I 've heard it was amazing...  She has criticized me for being too free spirited, so, seeing her loosen up a bit is a good thing.  She would probably not be very happy in San Francisco if she doesn't lighten up even a bit more than she has already.

As I have said in a lot of previous posts, this is a young woman with a very defined purpose in her life.  She is rare amoung all the previous RU/UW I have corresponded with in that she actually has a plan and vision for what she wants to do with her life that is more complex than making a cozy home and having babies.  I would be bored to death with that kind of woman and if I was seeking such a woman I could find a plethora of them rather quickly.  I am not terribly worried about her making any drastic variations from that plan and am very willing and able to support her in whatever choices she might make. 

I do have a variety of back up plans that I can fall back on if things don't go as hoped.  As I said several times before I have some very good contacts with artists in St. Peter so I can go there with no notice.  I have been invited, either way it works out in Moscow, I or we, are invited to St. Pete.  I have a lady in Pskov, with personal contact info from when I was still using an agency.  I stopped regular correspondence with her because of agency interference and she knows that, but I did call her over the weekend and told her my situation.  She is willing to meet with me also.  And, in a week or two I will send out some intro letters on the free sites.  I spent four days out of seven in Kherson last year pissed off and completely alone.  I am not going to let that happen again.

So, again Billy.. thanks for your thoughts.. your commentary is helping me keep my head clear as the excitement and emotions build surrounding the actual travelling and meeting.

so... moving on..

Scott.. your comment isn't helpful at all.  Just critical.  So, that would be your problem not mine.  Pity you don't have anything usefull to add since I have found many of your posts on other parts of the board to be insightful.  Comments like yours make me personally regret being open about my situation.  I could have easily excluded the two items that open me up for criticism as I knew some unhappy people would grab onto them as items to attack on.  I just didn't expect it from you.  So, unless you have something usefull to add, please do not bother to respond to this thread again.

One last thing.. I am still looking for any hookups on apartments in Moscow.  I have some leads.. but.. if a better deal is out there I am all ears.  Thanks.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott.. your comment isn't helpful at all.  Just critical.  So, that would be your problem not mine.  Pity you don't have anything usefull to add since I have found many of your posts on other parts of the board to be insightful.  Comments like yours make me personally regret being open about my situation.  I could have easily excluded the two items that open me up for criticism as I knew some unhappy people would grab onto them as items to attack on.  I just didn't expect it from you.  So, unless you have something usefull to add, please do not bother to respond to this thread again.

So I guess you didn't mean this:

So, feedback please and if it has to be harsh give it to me.

One of the biggest problems many men have in this venture is rationalizing inappropriate behavior in the women they are corresponding with,often blaming it on misunderstandings, the culture or their situation.  I just wanted to give you a wake up call to maybe step back and see if you were not doing that.  If I was too harsh, I apologize.

One thing I would recommend is that you are very clear with her about your lifestyle.  Some RW wouldn't see some of your activities as such as attending raves as those of a stable man.  It's a very different concept to them.

[Sculpto]

Scott..

No, I meant it.. but, short wildly general criticisms do not help anyone.. myself in my current circumstances, or anyone who might read the thread in the future.  Anyway, your apology is gallantly accepted. 

I am not rationalizing anything.  I gave her permission, which she gave to me also, and she took it.  I give her credit for actually telling me about it.  It must not have been easy for her to do because she knew she risked me dumping her and then she loses a years worth of communication, hopes and so on also.  But, the bottom line is, as Docetae pointed out, and I agree with, I have not met the girl IRL and therefore have no right to demand fidelity.  Afterwards, should things go to the positive after I meet her.. that is clearly a different story.  But this situation does not affect my trust in her, on the contrary.  Besides, as I have said before.. I was on the "hunt" during this time and I have corresponded with several other ladies during the past year, so, does that make me somehow a bad man?  No, I do not think so and I have to give her the benefit of the doubt.

She is very aware of my lifestyle and is curious about it.  I spent hours with her trying to explain what the Burning Man festival is about, showed her tons of pictures, including those of a lot of naked people.  She has seen the website for the Folsom Street Fair and for kink.com so she knows how completely insane San Francisco can be.  It just made her more curious.  I told her about the clothing optional Hot Springs I go to every summer north of San Francisco.. she would like to visit there as well, especially after she told me about the hot springs near Tomsk that are covered in garbage from the drunks who go there to party.. where as the place I go to is so pristine and safe the deer don't run away when they see people, smoking and alcohol and meat to be eaten are not allowed anywhere on the property and so on.  She had a hard time imagining that such a pristine place could exist with water so pure you can drink it from the place it comes out of the earth.

Every person is different.  I have made a point of finding a lady who is open minded about my lifestyle, understands to the best of her ability what a "hippie" was and is and that I live a VERY non materialistic life.  She is OK with all of it.  In fact, she says it is a big part of why she likes me.  She says I have "soul" and she is right. 

I have a long list of questions I have developed over the last three years that I use to try and understand anyone I correspond with and try to judge how well they will match up with the kind of person I am.  This list got a lot longer and more specific after the crash and burn in Kherson last year.  I have never expected ANYONE to tolerate every single thing on my list.  But, it is something of a psychological as well as cultural "test" that has helped me weed out a lot of very sweet girls who I would be bored to death with and who would probably end up resenting my lifestyle.  Being realistic no American hippie freak artist female has even been able to meet all the requirements, so, armed with a little bit of knowledge about FSUW I am well aware it might not even be possible to find someone there.

I do not wear suits and ties, I used to have hair halfway down my back and a grizzly Adams beard.. if my career and the ensuing baldness hadn't interfered I would still to this day sport at least a long ponytail.  These days I present a casual professional style at work and I resort back to the comfortable retro hippie style, or, all dressed in black "artist" style, when I go out.  She once complained all I wear is black so I showed her the "purple haze" style and she was a bit shocked but liked it.

I might be more suited to Latin American women who are a lot more open minded about roughing it in nature, but, I have found FSUWs who did.  One is in Odessa and if she was not 6'2 (i am 5'9) I never would have needed to continue.  My friend in Odessa, whom I have met IRL, smoked medicine with me that she procurred within 15 minutes of my arrival in Odessa and is an awesome woman and she would not have made an issue about me being so much shorter than her.. but, I was not comfortable with it.  Nevertheless she remains a great friend and has been an adviser regarding the same current situation.  Her advice was simple... and she used her own self as the example.. "until a man comes to see me in real life.. and we find we are a match.. I do what I want, when I want, with who I want.. even if I do nothing at all.. but.. if a man comes to me.. and I want him to be my man.. I will give myself only to him."  This comes from a woman who understands my lifestyle with the same depth as my lady in Moscow.   

This might work for me.. and it might not.  But.. the thing everyone should hopefully learn, EVERYONE is different and has different needs, desires, interests and so on.  Most of you guys would be shocked at a lot of the things I have done in my life, things you probably don't even know exist.  Some of you would probably even say I am a degenerate or a godless atheist sinner.  You might be right, according to your world view.. but.. if that is true.. than I better find a degenerate godless sinner of a woman to share the rest of my crazy, creative, artistic and full of adventure life. 

Rent the movie "Henry and June" about the authors Anais Nin and Henry Miller, or, "Diego and Frida" about the Mexican artists Diego Rivera and Frida Khalo, (who by the way was the daughter of a Russian Jewish immigrant to Mexico) and you might have a chance of understanding who I am and the kind of woman I need.

[Sculpto]

Just a quick report here.. my girl has arrived safely back in Tomsk after a 3 and half day trip on the train halfway across Siberia.  When I got her on the phone she was with her friends in Tomsk who threw her a welcome back party.  She did something really cute because I had been trying to call her unsuccesfully for a few hours and apparently, I found out after, she was out of minutes on her phone.. so... all of a sudden I get 7 or 8 sms messages from unfamiliar phones in Russia.. she got all her friends to send me a hello!  Then when I called she answered and just laughed for three minutes.. I have never heard her so exhausted though.. I should finally have a nice long chat with her on yahoo sometime over the weekend and we will get our details finalized for my trip next month to see her.

[Sculpto]

Well, my girls exhaustion has not gone away and her short return to Tomsk "honeymoon" is clearly over.  She is working 12-14 hours a day already and her voice and attitude are full of anxiety which is causing me some confusion.

She is very stressed about going back to Moscow to meet me.  She refuses any suggestion I send her money for her travel expenses and in the next breath complains that her money situation is tight.  Nevertheless she is committed to meeting me at the airport in Moscow.  I suggested going to Tomsk and she refused saying if she is there she will have to work and not have time to be with me but if we meet in Moscow she will not have any other obligations so we can focus on each other.

She also complained she is terrified to come to the USA and be abandoned here where she knows only me and will be dependent, not something she is accustomed to.

So, there are some clear yellow flags.  Mostly I think it is just nerves because she made the statement, "I need a man who will be there for me when I need him" and then complained that one year is a long time to wait.  I know she has gone through a lot with her father and I feel she is angry that I did not come to her immediately when he fell ill.   She didn't come out and say it.. but, she did say, "Why you come now when I deal with all problems alone?" 

So, I am asking advice.. but.. if the advice is to forget her please save it.  I am going.. but I am looking for thoughts about how to ease her fears and get her to understand I am doing my best for her.

Thanks in advance.

[Ade]

So, I am asking advice.. but.. if the advice is to forget her please save it.  I am going.. but I am looking for thoughts about how to ease her fears and get her to understand I am doing my best for her.

Thanks in advance.

I'll admit that I haven't read every post, however, it seems clear to me that you have far too much emotional investment in this girl/situation for someone that hasn't actually met her yet which really isn't ideal for making rational decisions. 

And from what you've said, this girl is going through a very turbulent and emotional time and probably isn't in the best frame of mind to think all that clearly either. Even so, she still makes noises about being terrified at the thought of moving to the US and being dependant on you; this is before reality hits home that it's a definite possibility which usually comes way after the initial meeting.

All in all, just too much drama described here and although you didn't want to hear it I'd still suggest you walk away as it'll probably be the best thing for both of you.

[ScottinCrimea]

Why are you even spending so much time talking about her coming to the US?  You haven't even met the poor woman yet.  Why don't you take some of the pressure off and just discuss it as a visit to see if you are compatible and that any discussions about a possible future together and what that would involve can be had later.

Of course she's feeling unstable right now.  Her father, a solid foundation for her, is crumbling and she has the feeling of being abandoned and left on her own in a sense.  Now to have her talking about putting all of her trust in another man is just the wrong thing to do right now.

What you are describing are more than yellow flags and I, too, think that you have way too much invested emotionally at this point.  Unfortunately, you are expecting her to have the same level of investment and she's just not prepared to do that yet.  At this point, I think you are waving more red flags than she is.

[Sculpto]

Good points from both of you guys.  I should clarify.. I didn't bring up coming to the US today.  She brought it up along with a lot of other fears and issues.  My discussion all along has been this meeting is to see if what we have felt during correspondence is the same in real life.  When I remind her of that she seems to calm down.  I do know she went through the effort of getting an international passport and going through the line at the embassy to see if she could get a visa to visit me here.  For months she insisted on doing that rather than me going to Russia so we lost a lot of time in that process.  She also described to me that she felt somewhat degraded or humiliated by the comments made to her by whoever she spoke with at the embassy when they told her she could not have a visa because they think she will come here and make a fake marriage with the purpose of immigration.  I feel like I need to give her at least some credit for her effort and make at least as much effort on my end.  Besides, knowing how proud she is and how she has often in the past diminished her "problems" even when I pressed her to discuss, in some way I take her "rant" today as a good thing because in the past she has been alot more reluctant to really explain what is going on, so, her telling me what is really on her mind may actually be a sign of growing trust, and even possibly a test to see if I can really listen to her or if I only care about my own needs and feelings.

I also spoke with her after a 14 hour day and it has been a pattern in the past that she says some pretty wild stuff when she is exhausted and then the next day apologizes and insists everythign is ok.

I should probably mention this woman is not Russian ethnically.  She is Armenian even though she lives in Siberia.  I have had a considerable amount of contact with the Armenian community here in the Bay Area and can say Armenians and Russians are VERY different culturally.  Her passions and mood swings are consistent with my experiences with Armenians here. 

As far as my own emotional investment.. yes.. I have some.. but please refer to a previous post I have made about the phenomena of AOLOVE.  I have my head on straight and am working on backup plans.  I've already cleared the time off from work and have a ticket so it is kind of hard to back out now.  Besides, if I walk away now it will only reinforce all the negatives that are running through her mind.  I feel like I would be doing a lot of damage if I did walk away.  That would not be an expression of being a "real man" now would it?

Just because she is terrified doesn't mean she won't do it.  She made the same comment before she went to Moscow for work.  She didn't know anyone there and the director fo the newspaper, whom she had not met in person, made all of her arrangements.  She didn't know where she would be staying, where she would be working, where they would send her, what her responsibilites would be and so on, yet, she still did it and even though she had a very difficult time she completed her contract and feels her time there was well spent and succesful even though exhausting.

Guys, you have to please try and put your advice into the frame of who I am, not who you are.  I like some drama in my life.  I like passionate sometimes erratic people.  It is who I am and who I look for.  I would be bored with a woman who keeps her "stuff" boxed up inside, or, someone who just doesn't have "stuff".  She is committed to riding the train 3 and half days each direction on her own dime to spend 8 and half days with me.  I am just looking for ways to demonstrate to her now that she is making a good decision so when we finally do meet the expectations will be realistic and both of our hearts open to the possibilities.

[dispozo]

  I suggested going to Tomsk and she refused saying if she is there she will have to work and not have time to be with me but if we meet in Moscow she will not have any other obligations so we can focus on each other.

I am confused..... Can get time off from work to go to Moscow, but no time off to see you in Tomsk.

I would think after a year of talking and looking for a future together. She would want you to meet her family and friends. With her father in not so great condition. She will risk being away from him, just to meet you.....

But I only know what I read here.

Good luck

[groovlstk]

Guys, you have to please try and put your advice into the frame of who I am, not who you are.  I like some drama in my life.  I like passionate sometimes erratic people.  It is who I am and who I look for.

Sculpto, just my observation, but I see some guys advising caution not because your friend is mercurial or unpredictable, but because she may be playing you.

[Sculpto]

This is what I know about her Fathers condition.. he underwent treatments while she was in Moscow and is feeling well enough to be be out and about.. unlike three months ago when he was on bed rest in the hospital.  When my Mother had cancer four years ago things were pretty similiar so I don't feel there is any funny business going on there.

The Tomsk situation has always been complicated.  She runs a newspaper there and is constantly working.  She is obsessively dedicated to her work.  Last January when I was considering coming to Tomsk she warned me at that time I might be frustrated because she would be very busy.  So, she is consistent on this point.  Our chats have always been early in her morning or late in her night, but almost like clockwork almost every day for the better part of a year. I think she is also trying to accomodate me in that I have a very limited amount of time and if I go to Tomsk on this trip I would lose almost two full days of time with her.  Adding in for jet lag, Tomsk is another 3 hours forward from Moscow, and it would actually be a pretty rotten trip if I went there.

I asked her about meeting her family and her answer was simply.. "My father is like old soviet, he will not like it, he hates America."  Her mother is supportive and I have spoken with her on the phone.. well sort of since I don't really speak Russian and she doesn't speak English.. but.. we did have several chats with her Mother there and she asked me a lot of questions.  I could see her Mom and she could see me on the cam.  Almost everytime I speak with my girl she says her Mom says hello or that she had asked about me.  I asked if it was very important I meet her Mom and she said it will be ok if it happens anytime in the future.  When her sister got married last spring it was sudden and they had never met the guy until literally a few days before the wedding.  So, I feel that is just how they function.  She has also said on several occasions "it my life I do what I want" when I questioned her about family approval.

One thing she has always said, since the first time I met her, is that she is difficult.  She is stubborn, very opinionated and she usually gets what she wants.  She put me into contact with one of her friends and her "reputation" was confirmed on more than one occasion.  Some of you might think I am nuts, but, that is my kind of girl.  Anyway, during our correspondence there have been a couple of times we had disagreements.  Both times they were around political topics and they got way out of hand.  I once made the mistake of being critical of an article she had written and sent to me to see what I thought about it.  It took weeks to calm her down from that because in her view I had insulted her work.  It was very well written, I just didn't agree with her concepts.  The other was the classic, "who won WW2?".  BTW.. this is a very touchy subject I have since learned and I can advise extreme caution if it ever comes up.  They lost a LOT more people than we did in the war.  After the Georgia conflict started I actually expected an arguement but she suprised me coming out against the Russian position.  I was actually shocked about that because she has beena  big Putin fan as long as I have known her.

If she is playing me I do not see what the end game would be.  She refuses my money so it can't be that.  She knows I am not rich and she has a good career now so immigration is an unlikely goal.  I think she is worried that if she were to come here she would have to basically start from scratch beginning with langauge school.  Even if she has made amazing progress in English in the last year she is not fluent enough to have a job in her field.  Besides, her newspaper is something she started but she hasn't finished her degree yet so to get a job in journalism here she would have to finish school.  Right now she is a big fish in a little pond and she has the perception, quite innacurately, that San Francisco is a HUGE city.  She is aware of all of that and that is exactly where her fear of dependence on me comes into play.  She would be giving up a lot for what still remains an unknown on my end.  Besides, she is prone to worrying about everything anyway.  She is not a "live in the moment" kind of person when it comes to love and career.  I have known that from the beginning.  She is a "trust but verify" kind of person and I would be asking her to make a bigger sacrifice and risk than I am making.  As I said before.. although I am a bit confused by her mood swings the last couple of weeks, her opening up to tell me what she is afraid of, to me is a good sign.  I am just not sure how to reassure her over the internet.

BTW.. except for the conversations about her getting a journalistic visa to visit here there have been no real in depth conversations about how i might be able to get her over here.  I have mentioned fiance visa a couple of times and she laughs and calls me crazy.  What she does not know is the travel agent I am using here in SF is experienced in exactly this kind of situation and is prepared to to do a business invitation should I ask her to do it.  The agent showed me a folder full of current and ongoing visa apps of exactly this type.. some legitimately for business and others for men who want to bring their girls over without the constraints of the K-1.  The agent is Russian and most of her clients are Russians who are going back to Russia to look for wives.  But, my girl is completely unaware that this possibility exists.  She was told at the embassy she needed an invite from a news media of some sort and then they might be able to process her visa.  At the time she told me about that I had no idea how I could find her the invitation but the travel agent is connected with both the Russian language paper here in SF as well as the Russian language cable TV station.  She felt the chances of getting a visa approval are pretty high as long as we follow the procedures and have all the documentation of my girls professional life along with recomendations from employers and so on.  But, as I said.. she has no idea I have already investigated this and found someone who can help.  As far as she knows K-1 is the only way.  That might have something to do with her fears also because marriage is very serious and we have not met in real life.

I appreciate the concern guys.  And I really appreciate everyone pointing out the flaws in the "story".  It is helping me think things through.  One of the problems with posting stories and asking for help on the forum is there are so many details and subtleties it becomes a freaking novel trying to explain everything.  Nevertheless I am not against you guys poking holes.  I am hoping for success and a love match but I am prepared for something else in case it doesn't work out.

[SANDRO43]

BTW.. except for the conversations about her getting a journalistic visa to visit here there have been no real in depth conversations about how i might be able to get her over here.  I have mentioned fiance visa a couple of times and she laughs and calls me crazy.  What she does not know is the travel agent I am using here in SF is experienced in exactly this kind of situation and is prepared to to do a business invitation should I ask her to do it.  The agent showed me a folder full of current and ongoing visa apps of exactly this type.. some legitimately for business and others for men who want to bring their girls over without the constraints of the K-1.  The agent is Russian and most of her clients are Russians who are going back to Russia to look for wives.  But, my girl is completely unaware that this possibility exists.  She was told at the embassy she needed an invite from a news media of some sort and then they might be able to process her visa.  At the time she told me about that I had no idea how I could find her the invitation but the travel agent is connected with both the Russian language paper here in SF as well as the Russian language cable TV station.  She felt the chances of getting a visa approval are pretty high as long as we follow the procedures and have all the documentation of my girls professional life along with recomendations from employers and so on.  But, as I said.. she has no idea I have already investigated this and found someone who can help.  As far as she knows K-1 is the only way.  That might have something to do with her fears also because marriage is very serious and we have not met in real life.

So what are you waiting for, to spring the surprise on her ? News about her father's health ?

[Ooooops]

I also spoke with her after a 14 hour day and it has been a pattern in the past that she says some pretty wild stuff when she is exhausted and then the next day apologizes and insists everythign is ok.

Does she drink much or does other stuff?   

[Sculpto]

Sandro..
There are two reasons I am waiting to to discuss her visa.  One, given the circumstances of the last few weeks and knowing how exhausted she has been and with numerous complaints about her situation I did not want to give her any thoughts of an "easy" escape from her reality.  As someone said earlier in the thread.. she must want to come here because she loves me.. not to get away from her problems.  And the second reason is I feel like it will be an awesome suprise if things turn out good when I am with her.

Oooops,
She drinks on occasion and has never done any drugs.. not even smoking a joint.  She pushes herself really hard at work.  Short of some artists I have known over the years she is the single most obsessed about their job/career person I have ever known.

She asked me to be her alarm clock this morning so I will be calling her in 28 minutes.  I will place a bet the first thing she will say is "Sorry baby I dont know why I so bad with you last night." and then she will blow me a bunch of kisses and say she is sorry two more times. 

[Ooooops]

She asked me to be her alarm clock this morning so I will be calling her in 28 minutes.  I will place a bet the first thing she will say is "Sorry baby I dont know why I so bad with you last night." and then she will blow me a bunch of kisses and say she is sorry two more times. 

Well, I guess different strokes for different folks...     If you like this kind of emotional roller coaster then everything is fine.   I, personally, wouldn't like it one bit, no matter how many kisses were blown to me in the morning...   

[SANDRO43]

Welcome back, Ooooops, we haven't seen you for some time. Were you clicking away at the Olympics ?

[Sculpto]

I cant say I am thrilled about the ride she has put me on the last few weeks.  But, I have to measure that against a year of communication with very few disappointments.  

Ultimately, if things don't smooth out in the next three weeks before I am supposed to get on the plane I can always back out.  I would hate to do that, but, if there is too much doubt or the dramas continue every day I will certainly reconsider my plans.  But, I don't even want to think about that as a possibility right now.

I was about to click send but this idea of backing out and starting over again made me think of something.  I wonder how many guys go ahead and make a trip, against their own better judgement, for fear of losing time invested and having to start over again?

[Ooooops]

Welcome back, Ooooops, we haven't seen you for some time. Were you clicking away at the Olympics ?

Thanks, Sandro    Was kinda busy with other stuff.   Actually, we saw the Olympic torch relay in Macao, purely by accident!     

Sorry for the off-top! 

[groovlstk]

If she is playing me I do not see what the end game would be.  She refuses my money so it can't be that.  She knows I am not rich and she has a good career now so immigration is an unlikely goal. 

Sculpto, sometimes the answers aren't so apparent.

If you look back in the archives, for example, you'll find a TR from a guy named Bruno who used to post here often. He had a fiancee in Ukraine, and during the trip he planned to propose to her he noticed she was behaving strangely. Long story short: she had a local BF. Local BF was married so she knew Bruno gave her a better shot at a future, yet ultimately she couldn't go through with a marriage to a guy she didn't love and rejected Bruno's marriage proposal.

I had a similar situation years ago when I first started my search. I remember having long discussions with some of my RWD friends that took a similar tack - "she's never asked me for money" and "we talk for hours each day," etc. etc., "so she must be sincere, right?" Problem was she always wanted to meet outside her city, away from friends and family. I eventually discovered she was doinking her sister's husband, a mid-level oligarch in a medium-sized Ukrainian city. Everyone in town -except her sis - knew she was a "kept" woman, so of course she couldn't bring me there. Yet she also knew that this man offered her no future, whereas I did... So she played me like a harp. For two whole years. Now, whenever I channel surf past Jerry Springer and feel compelled to comment on the unbelievably stupid trash he has as guests I remember how foolishly I behaved with this woman and shut right up, swallow, and change the channel.

I'm not saying that your situation is like the two above, only that you don't always know how and why you're being played. I'll be honest with you, too: the more details that emerge, the more I smell something rotten.

[Ooooops]

I wonder how many guys go ahead and make a trip, against their own better judgement, for fear of losing time invested and having to start over again?

I'm not a guy but I had my fair share of failed relationships     So, here are my thoughts - did you have fun conversing with this girl for a year?   Did you put your life on hold because of that?   If answers are Yes and No, then better cut the loses from the bad investment and invest in something more profitable.   

[dispozo]

I have read all your post and so many things do not make sense to me.....

All I can say is when FSU lady is really into you, you will know it. She will make ever effort possible to see. She will want you to meet her family and friends. This is my experience.

Nobody here wants you to fail. But some times our feelings, can act like beer-goggles.

 I wonder how many guys go ahead and make a trip, against their own better judgement, for fear of losing time invested and having to start over again?

I have only gone to visit two ladies (past two years). Both times I was about 95% sure of a success. The first lady I went to see as a friend and the other lady I wanted more then friendship. Both trips ended up being 100% success. I now have a wonderful friend and fiancee.

[Sculpto]

Groov.. good post..

look, there are certain details that I do not feel I can post which may be what you are smelling.  Some stuff is just too private.  However, it is exactly those things which I do not feel at liberty to share that give me confidence in this woman.  It is hard to explain.  

You know.. I just got off the phone with her and it was exactly as I predicted earlier.  The girl is exhausted and full of apology for last night.  

I am also recognizing that she is just scared by this whole thing.  Remember way back at the beginning of this thread I mentioned that this woman was never looking for a foreign man in the first place.  Things just happened with us that couldn't be stopped.  At the beginning she shared a lot of her Fathers animosity about the USA.  But, her attitude wasn't limited only to an anti USA feeling.. the article she wrote that we argued about was basically a nationalistic diatribe against the whole non Russian world and showed what I see as Russian paranoia that the whole world is out to "get" Russia.  Like I said.. she was a Putin fan.  

There has been a big change in her world view over the last several months.  

Now that my words have turned into actions it is freaking her out.

For sake of discussion.. lets put ourselves into her shoes...

Imagine being something of a prodigy having achieved a certain amount of local notariety/ recognition for your work as an overly opinionated and controversial editor, who, by most standards is too young to have so much power.  So, now lets imagine we happen to have a profile on a Russian networking site and some guy from half way around the world sends a message.  Lets imagine you have never communicated with an American before but have tons of ideas about how Americans are because you happen to live in an area full of oil that is attracting oil company engineers and explorer types.. some of the most bold and arrogant people on the planet who also happen to be American (texans).  And these Americans have carved something of a reputation in Siberia for being arrogant and aggresive towards women and very liberal about throwing money around to impress girls, so, you naturally assume this American who has written to you would be the same.  But, nevertheless you are curious and decide to answer the letter.  Soon, the letter turns to chats and you realize this American is not at all like you thought Americans would be, but, instead he is an artist and highly sensitive and thoughtful and romantic.  Pretty soon the chats turn to phone calls and friendly conversations turn to wishes and hopes.. and then wishes and hopes turn to promises.

And this American man has promised to come to you, in your town, where yo are known by almost everyone and certainly by everyone under 30.  He says it doesn't matter if you are working because he will wander around and study wooden houses and draw and paint and he will wait for you in the evenings and all will be great.  So you agree to the idea and promises turn to plans.  But then, you learn the economy in the USA is turning bad.  Your internet boyfriend also happens to be in sales to support his art habit and is almost immediately affected by the economic problems, so, you tell him not to worry about it.. that you have a friend who has contacts in the embassy and this friend thinks it might be possible to get you a visa.  So.. the plans turn back to wishes and the correspondence continues daily..

Then.. just at the time when you think you can go to Moscow and start a visa process the unexpected happens and your Father falls ill with a life threatening disease.  All plans and wishes are put on hold.  All the money you have saved over a three year period by living at home is immediately paid out to the hospital.  You go from being in essence completely independent financially to completely broke.  And, you need more money than you have to pay the hospital.  You look everywhere for funds but the best thing you can find is an offer that has been sitting on the table for a while from an editor you met once at a conference to go to Moscow and set up a newspaper on the model of your own newspaper.  You didn't want to do it because you don't know anyone there.. but.. the money is five times what you can make at home so you agree to it.

In the meantime stuff happens and it is a lot harder to communicate with your internet boyfriend.. who.. by the way why didn't he come and help me whan I needed him?  Typical MAN only thinking for himself!

Then exhaustion sets in.. the financial problems did not disappear because all the money you made in Moscow is already spent on the hospital.  And now the internet boyfriend says to you.. finally he has money and free time to come.  Why must he come now?  Why he can't see I do not feel good now, why he can't see I have pressures now?  Why he can't wait.. but.. you know I am sick of waiting also.. I am sick of being alone for all that I must do.. I don't want to wait for him more.. but I also am angry he did not come sooner when i really needed him.  What is he going to do for me now?  Now he will only want I leave everything and go with him.  I don't need this pressure.

And then she blows up at the internet boyfriend who then spends the whole day on the internet venting his own frustrations and trying to understand what happened to his sweet girl.  And then everyone on the web is telling him to dump her so it makes him feel even more messed up.

And then finally he does the wake up call in the morning as she wanted.  And she feels terrible for all the crap she gave him the night before.. and he smiles at her through the phone and tells her not to worry about it.. and he makes her promise that next time she starts to feel stressed.. no matter what time of day or night it is.. to send him the SMS and he will call her and calm her down.. and she says thank you Eric.. "you still my angel".

fin

So, my next predicition is this will happen at least one more time before I get on a plane.  I know you guys do not want to see me get hurt.  Well.. I dont want to get hurt!  LOL.. but.. life without risks gets you no where.. you now.. 20 years ago I had a fledgling career racing cars.. it is still something I love.. but I find car racing to be probably the single most selfish thing a human can do.. but that is a seperate rant.. anyway... there were some amazing people that I met during that time period and a lot of lessons learned.. but there was one expression that has always stuck with me..

"Run with the Big Boys or stay home"  

Not everyone can win, and each race only has one winner, but, you can either participate and be part of something.. even if it does not achieve the desired result, or, you can stay home and sit on the couch and wine to your friends about how hard it is to find a good woman ad listen to them wine the same thing back or worse yet tell you how messed up their own marriages are with cheating wives and unreasonable demands they put up with "just for the kids but I will get a divorce as soon as they are in college".

Ooops.. I want to address your comment directly.. Yes I had fun with her.. she was/is awesome.  Did I put my life on hold.. wel.. not exactly.. as I have mentioned elsewhere in this thread San Francisco is probably the WORST place in the USA for a single straight man.  Let me give you an idea of the environment here...

First of all the gay and bi-sexual population is huge.  The city is very migrant, so, when women are graduating University and deciding where to go unlike New York which has similiar finaincial prospects.. SF being full of gays becomes a negative magnet for young single marriage minded women.  Of those that are here the competition for them is fierce.  Women who in other places who might never get dates here have their choice of suckers.  

let me break it down.. this might seem like an exageration.. and maybe it is a bit.. but.. the essence of this analysis is true.

If you have 100 single women in SF and 100 single men.. this is how it goes..

First remove 50 of the women simply because they are unattractive physically.. either very overweight, lots of hyper ghetto (if you dont know these types of girls.. all covered in tattoos, black lipstick and fingernails wearing Oakland raiders jerseys and baggy pants.. and yes.. those are females I am talking about.. "an dey be tawkin chit like dis") or some other physical/mental defect that in a "normal" place would make it very difficult for them to date.

Second.. remove 25 because they are either hookers, strippers or work in a massage parlor.. or.. they did any of the above at some point in the last five years and have serious emotional damage as a result.  There are estimates that in SF with a populations of 750,000 people there are over 20,000 sex workers.  The level of drug abuse with this demographic is hard to even comprehend.

Now, remove 15 because they are lesbians.

Of the ten that are left..
 remove 5 because they are sex addicts and sleep with different men several times a week..
remove three more because their careers interfere too much to ever have time to evolve a relationship.
of the two that are left.. one is a gold digger and only dates men with at least $1,000,000 a year in income and there are lots of them around to fight over the hot sexy gold digger trophy wife.

So, there is one attractive, well educated, available good girl with marriage on her mind that is left for 100 guys to fight over.  (of course not all 100 men are gods gift to women, but, you get my idea)

So.. no.. I did not put my life on hold for Miss Tomsk..

For those that will say.."why the hell dont you move to someplace else?" well.. with the exception of the lack of quality women and the high rent SF is a great place to live.  The culture.. the Bay.. and all the amazing places within close proximity.. the weather.. the fact that it is a real city where you do not have to have a car to get around.. well.. there just isn't any other place in this country I would live.. and if I had an awesome woman in my life it would really be paradise here because there are so many amazingly romantic things to do.

so.. anyway.. I hope you all are enjoying my posts and I hope when this is all over there will be something usefull for others.. I am enjoying writing and especially enjoying getting my anxieties about what is happening out of my system.  Thanks to all of you.  

[Sculpto]

Dispozo..

Up until I started this thread there was never a doubt.. unfortunately circumtances have changed and that is causing her confusion about things.  Clearly my timing is not good.  In that respect it may be partly my fault she is stressing because a few weeks ago when we started discussing this I told her if I didn't do it now I had no idea when there might be another opportunity.  I wish I could say to her and to all of you that I am exagerating but we all know what is going on with the economy.. in my business.. this should be a very busy time of year.. I should have signed up at least five new clients and be booking into January by now.. but.. the showroom is very very quiet.. no traffic.. no new sales.. and only a few prospects.. so, I figure I am better off taking the paid vacation time I am owed before the owner decides to shut the place down and I get stiffed.  Right now I can not be sure I will be employed as of Jan.1.  Fortunately I have some savings so even if that should happen I can continue a process with my girl should it come to that.. I can get her over here and then go down to Mexico and sit on the beach till things turn around.. and frankly she is a lot more interested in Mexico than she is interested in the USA.. Viva Zapata y toma tequilla!