If I had it to do all over again, I dont think I would even leave the airport in

[Turboguy]

TG, in your decade-long search did you use any other methods of meeting women other than agencies, agency tours, and freepersonals.com?

Groov,  When I first started I was using catalogs by Club Prima in Houston and Latin-Euro Introductions in Atlanta.  After that I tried 3 European Connections tours.  One to Kiev-Moscow.  One to Moscow St Petersburg and another to Kiev Moscow.  They were fun but a waste of a lot of time and a lot of money.

After that I tried a listing through AFA where they send your info to all the women on their mailing.  I met my first fiancee that way.  I also used some of the free listings on EECL.org. 

After my first fiancee did not work out I used Elena's and FreePersonals.ru.   By then I had found RWD which helped me a lot.  Of course I also went on one of Jack's tours but that was more for my son than for me.  Actually Jack's tour was very impressive, particularly having had done a few EC tours so I had something to compare with and could see the difference in the sincerity of the women I was meeting.

I think a lot of things have their time and I think the time for the big agency tours has passed.   Perhaps a decade ago it was a good thing.  I think the agency time is passing for a lot of the reasons you mentioned.   I do think as you said, there are still lots of women everywhere who would like to find a good husband. 

 

[vwrw]

Do you believe that the "best" women in any city are looking for aging white foreigners to come rescue her? Sorry, but this is extraordinarily arrogant and insulting to Russian and Ukrainian (and Moldovan, etc.) people and if you said such while in the FSU you'd be laughed out of town or tarred and feathered.

Which exactly part of Turbo's post made you thinking that he would believe in the absurdity ?
You'd be laughed out of town or tarred and feathered EITHER if you said that the "best" women in any city are looking for young white foreigners to come rescue them.
Do you really believe that the "best" women in any given city consider youth of men to be the most dominant and compelling reason to marry them?

My wife has plenty of single friends in Moscow who are pining for a good man - they aren't specifically seeking Western guys but they'd be more than open to relationships w/foreigners. ........they have standards, too - your blue passport and heavy wallet don't carry as much weight as they do in the hinterlands.

How many women from “the hinterlands” have you scrutinized to infer that blue passport and heavy wallet carry much weight for them?
 

[Misha]

In looking at my own experience, I can say that there were many advantages to dating in Russia. As I noted in other threads, whereas there were only a couple of dozen women on my local dating sites in my city, there were hundreds or thousands in any city in Russia. Also, it was much easier to go from initial contact to real date in Russia as opposed to my city. This made it much easier to meet women. Also, the standards for most Russian women were more reasonable: they wanted a good man, a decent guy, a man they could spend the rest of their lives with. That is all I needed.

In Russia, it was simply easier to actually meet women, and by meeting enough women, I found the one that I wanted to be with and who wanted to be with me.

This is not to say that my wife was willing to marry just anybody, but she was willing to meet with any man who seemed decent enough to check him out. This is the attitude of large numbers of women across Russia.

To go from date to marriage requires a bit more however. If a guy is an a**hole, then a thousand dates won't help him and this is true whether he is in Moscow, the most distant Russian hinterland or one of the Stans or Moldova.

What do we know? Well, we have the affirmation that 10 women changed their minds and chose not to join their fiances in the United States. The guilt is laid upon the women. Yet, what if it is the men? What if the women after an initial euphoria, realized that the men were not good and decent men? I don't know the men, so I can't judge. But, why should I presume automatically that the women are at fault? Perhaps they had valid reasons for changing their minds. Maybe the men did something or said something that made them worry as to what kind of life they would have with him in the United States?

If the problem is with the men, then sending them farther in the hopes of finding women that are more desperate won't change things. Yes, maybe they will find a woman who is willing to tolerate any man until she gets her permanent green card, but that is far from the ideal IMHO.

[Shadow]

My definition of poverty, is someone who makes a certain amount of money enough to get by but not enough to live well.

They might have some modern gadgets, even poverty stricken people here have modern gadgets including a car, but US and FSU are 2 different to make a comparison IMO, here in the US, There are programs for welfare, foodstamps and other various opportunities to get back on your feet. I don't know anything about FSU other then go and get a job and just trying to make it.


felix8787

I guess your standards of poverty will allow about 95% of the world to be poor.

[groovlstk]

Which exactly part of Turbo's post made you thinking that he would believe in the absurdity ?
You'd be laughed out of town or tarred and feathered EITHER if you said that the "best" women in any city are looking for young white foreigners to come rescue them.
Do you really believe that the "best" women in any given city consider youth of men to be the most dominant and compelling reason to marry them?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I didn't say anything about youth being the main attraction for any woman. I pointed out the age factor because I dated many agency women (many good women, by the way, but none that I felt strongly enough about to ask for marriage) and one of their chief complaints was that they were pursued by men who were much too old, men who were well outside their age requirements but ignored their agency profile and still hounded them. Some complained about the quality of the men, some about guys who strung them along.

To my knowledge, none of the women I dated complained that their foreign suitors were too young.

Regardless, take out the word "aging" from my sentence if it is less offensive to you and my comment still stands.

How many women from “the hinterlands” have you scrutinized to infer that blue passport and heavy wallet carry much weight for them?

If you consider Arsenov or Khmelnytskyi oblast to be the hinterlands, then several. My point uses geography only as a general backdrop because living conditions and economics are more likely to be lower than big cities. Bottom line is that poverty or difficult living conditions = more incentive for a woman to emigrate. 

[groovlstk]

No I was not mislead by pride of RW.  Every woman FSU woman I dated could afford their own ticket to the places we visited and lived in nice apartments which they owned.

Again, these two points might sound like they support your position, but they do not.

Public transportation, particularly by rail, is dirt cheap in the FSU. I probably pay more to take two subway trains to work and home each day than it costs to travel several hundred kilometers in Ukraine or Russia.

And the women you dated owned their own apartments? Hmm, guess they must have saved a lot to pay for them, right? And the equity they have in their apartments can improve their living standard because they can sell them at a profit and move into a bigger place like Westerners do, no?

My wife has friends in Moscow who have propiska + apartments that are worth well over $300k. They joke that it's all an illusion. They can't sell the apt. and use the proceeds to buy a bigger apt. in a nicer area because to do so they'd have to take a loan, which at 20% interest is legalized loansharking - not to mention that even if they don't have to pay rent they can barely make it from paycheck to paycheck, so a mortgage is out of the question. They're stuck to their homes like glue and it doesn't matter if the home is worth $1 million - the only way to cash in on that equity is to move abroad where the proceeds can used to better themselves.

[Misha]

They can't sell the apt. and use the proceeds to buy a bigger apt. in a nicer area because to do so they'd have to take a loan, which at 20% interest is legalized loansharking - not to mention that even if they don't have to pay rent they can barely make it from paycheck to paycheck, so a mortgage is out of the question.

It is going to get even harder now. With the global credit crunch, a lot of Russian banks are teetering. Even the 20% loans are getting quite hard to get from what I have been reading as the banks don't have the cash to lend.

[Enot]

Well Faux, I guess you haven't been reading this thread very well.  I count 4 people that agree with me.

This statement stands on it's own, it doesn't need explanation.  I'm sorry you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

[Shadow]

It is going to get even harder now. With the global credit crunch, a lot of Russian banks are teetering. Even the 20% loans are getting quite hard to get from what I have been reading as the banks don't have the cash to lend.

That is nothing unusual in Russia. Most people do not trust banks, as they tend not to give their money back.

[Misha]

That is nothing unusual in Russia. Most people do not trust banks, as they tend not to give their money back.

It is not the people not trusting banks, it is the banks not having the money to lend or not wanting to lend to the people.

[Faux Pas]

Well Faux, I guess you haven't been reading this thread very well.  I count 4 people that agree with me.

This statement stands on it's own, it doesn't need explanation.  I'm sorry you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

Enot,

I have been reading the thread very well. You it would seem are in a serious case of denial. I understand what you said. Scout the poorer countries to increase one's odds of finding a serious woman. The problem with this statement Enot, is that it is very false and misleading especially to newbies. I've explained to you why it is false and misleading and you seem hellbent on continuing to defend it without any supporting data other than 10 guys you know

[Shadow]

It is not the people not trusting banks, it is the banks not having the money to lend or not wanting to lend to the people.

Where do you think banks get money to lend out from ? People who trust them with their savings.

[Enot]

I've explained to you why it is false and misleading and you seem hellbent on continuing to defend it without any supporting data other than 10 guys you know

My supporting data is that 4 other members agree with me and people I know who had RW/UW end visas.  Where is your supporting evidence?  I only see your opinion here.

Well I just heard another guy got a divorse from a from a Russian woman.  As soon as she got her green card ... she was gone with most of his money and possesions.  She was cheating on him and had her profile on mulitple websites trying to find her next husband during their marriage.  She had this planed from day one.  Doesn't sound like a "good and serious" woman to me!

[docetae]

My supporting data is that 4 other members agree with me and people I know who had RW/UW end visas.  Where is your supporting evidence?  I only see your opinion here.

supporting evidence is called "common sense"

[Enot]

Common sense doesn't hold up in a court of law, supporting evidence (like observations and documentation ... not opinions or common sense) does.  So there is a BIG difference and I suggest you learn it.   

[msmoby_ru]

My supporting data is that 4 other members agree with me and people I know who had RW/UW end visas.  Where is your supporting evidence?  I only see your opinion here.

Well I just heard another guy got a divorse from a from a Russian woman.  As soon as she got her green card ... she was gone with most of his money and possesions.  She was cheating on him and had her profile on mulitple websites trying to find her next husband during their marriage.  She had this planed from day one.  Doesn't sound like a "good and serious" woman to me!

Hi Enot, I see you are STILL quoting examples to support your "opinion"...

I, too, know of a recent RW in the US who has come on a visa to live with one guy and ended up with another ... the immediate reaction of her friends was shock...

Then it turns out - that the guy had promised her the earth and was up to his neck in debt and treated her as if she was his "property"..

If you are STILL thinking this relates to where a woman is from .....

[groovlstk]

Common sense doesn't hold up in a court of law, supporting evidence (like observations and documentation ... not opinions or common sense) does. 

You are woefully inadequate on all accounts.

It's almost comical how you cling to your beliefs to protect your vanity.

[docetae]

Common sense doesn't hold up in a court of law, supporting evidence (like observations and documentation ... not opinions or common sense) does.  So there is a BIG difference and I suggest you learn it.   

I will be married next saturday with a wonderful woman living in Kiev today, in Montreal tomorrow. She is talented, clever and beautiful. She loves me, I love her.  I think you have more to learn by listening to other, me included. We talk about relation, you talk about court of law. Your case is desperate..
Common sense is about building feeling, harmony and relationship. This is not picking up a woman in an agency and monitoring all her behavior to see when she will be cheating you.

ps: We have made prenuptial contract and everything that common sense require. In fact, we have same worth on each side... So please don't come back with usual bs on divorce, etc. I have been in relation with one canadian woman during 8 years and know very well about this.

[Diplomacy]

There is risk versus reward here and common sense is needed.  There is statistics that will support both sides of the argument.  There are women there that will use men here to get citizenship.  If you want to site economic reasons as a factor, also realize that there are very determined and resourceful women in harsh economic areas.  They have made it to their age somehow.

There are also men in the USA that are older and have more money then sense.  A fool is easily parted with their money.  There are some that equate the fiscal war chest as a sense of entitlement.  

I know about 10 people American-FSU couples on different levels of friendship.  The ones that are committed to work on the marriage and understanding the needs,feelings,goals, and thoughts of the person they married are very happy.  One girl, I only know her side of the story. She says that her husband only sees her as a pretty face and is not willing to understand her.

What about the extremely low success of K1 Visa to marriage percentage here in the USA.  How many women quit their jobs and took the risk of coming here to return to no job and the old life 90 days later?  I am sure that those woman would have a bad taste in their mouth also.

The reality is both sides have to realize that the mistakes of others are also brought into the situation.  For me, I made mistakes but learned from them.  Each time asking better questions and getting better answers.

I met several women that appeared to me to be gold diggers,scammers, and not good people by my definition.  I also met several that appeared to me to be wonderful and had amazing wife potential.

In the end it was a woman that has a similar philosophy, goals, interests, and passions that I needed.  I found her, and now we are working on building a life together.  We are both committed to building a life together and are capable of getting more done in a day than we could alone.  She makes me a better person, and will fight for what she believes in.  

She made a good life for herself there, and I asked a lot of her.  I am asking the same of myself at the same time.  Life is what you put into it.

  

[Enot]

Docetae, I see you still haven't gone back and read what I had written earlier so I will repeat.  THERE ARE "GOOD AND SERIOUS" WOMEN IN THE UKRAINE AND RUSSIA.  I prefur other places based on experience and observation.

Congratulations and I am truely happy that you have met someone and will be married. 

[Faux Pas]

My supporting data is that 4 other members agree with me and people I know who had RW/UW end visas.  Where is your supporting evidence?  I only see your opinion here.

Well I just heard another guy got a divorse from a from a Russian woman.  As soon as she got her green card ... she was gone with most of his money and possesions.  She was cheating on him and had her profile on mulitple websites trying to find her next husband during their marriage.  She had this planed from day one.  Doesn't sound like a "good and serious" woman to me!

Okay Einstein, one can only guess you have a much more emotional attachment than first considered for making such an asinine statement. Your statement was all about "odds" was it not? Odds in any equation is strictly the numbers. Here they are, the populations of the countries in question:

Russia    141.377 million
Ukraine    46.299 million

total       187.676 million

Belarus      9.724 million
Moldova     4.320 million

total         14.044 million

This gives you an estimated female population of Russia/Ukraine of 93.688 million and Belarus/Moldova of 7.022 million or a 13 to 1 odds in favor of Russia/Ukraine. These are your basic odds based on the shear numbers. 

Source: http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

Other variables will be the individual. The man, if he is of quality will increase those odds and if he is not those odds will decrease. Other variables will include both his judgement in choosing the right woman and his ability to form a healthy loving relationship.

Marriage/divorce ratio in most industrialized nations are at 50%. So even if the man is of quality and both the man and woman form a healthy loving relationship the odds of the marriage lasting is still only 50/50.

I don't know of any statistics that track green card girls but to a person of reasonable intellect this would again have to fall back to the judgement of the man.

I am also reasonably sure that some women in the economically depressed areas would cling to any man passing the breath test to escape those areas. This woman is serious about leaving but not serious about a loving relationship. (please don't construe this statement as agreeing with you or your previous statements) Thus green card girls, loving serious women willing to relocate are still in the same basic group of odds. Again, the judgement of the man in choosing the woman no matter where she is from is paramount in this process. The odds are, bad judgement will end in bad results no matter where the lady is from. It is irrelevent.

[Enot]

Well Faux, like your name you're a fake and not an Einstein.

Population has no bearing on the number of "good and serious" women in a country.  You've only stated numbers and your opinions.

GET A BRAIN!

[msmoby_ru]

Well Faux, like your name you're a fake and not an Einstein.

Population has no bearing on the number of "good and serious" women in a country.  You've only stated numbers and your opinions.

GET A BRAIN!

Hmm, I seem to remember my French teachers telling me "faux pas" meant to make a mistake .. Faux pas' "mistake" is to try and reason with you

Fine, you've got an opinion - based on experience ... but PLE-eae try not to suggest it means something "concrete"... or that it denotes a "trend" ...

[Blues Fairy]

Population has no bearing on the number of "good and serious" women in a country. 

This means that you think "good and serious" women constitute less than 1/13 of all women in RU/UA?    If Moldova+Belarus have more of them despite their smaller population?

[Enot]

This means that you think "good and serious" women constitute less than 1/13 of all women in RU/UA?    If Moldova+Belarus have more of them despite their smaller population?

No, it means the population has no bearing on the number of "good and serious" women.  I think maybe anyone with half a brain knows this ... except for maybe 1 person ... maybe less than half a brain?