Does Russia get viewed differently?

[chivo]

I mention this as we see the markets stumble around the world.

It was interesting to read the other day that Washington express deep concern, and cautioned the Russian government to stop meddling for its 5 billion dollar sell off to keep the ruble from further decline.

What was so interesting was that yesterday's fallout from the Lehman Brothers fiasco, that other country's, most notably China and Japan, basically did the same thing, with the help of Britain and the US, without a peep from the politicos in either country (the west).

I have no doubt that the last thing the US wants is for Russia to become strong again. While Russia certainly has caused some of its problems, and its history is far from commendable, the US surely in the last 8 years, doesn't have much to say, or should be throwing any stones, that's for sure.

The hypocrisy that the US and other western countries aim at Russia is so blatant that Ray Charles could see it if he was still alive. While their are things I'm proud of from my country, their are many things that make me bow my head in shame.

I certainly see it (hypocrisy) from the Americans on this board. The rhetoric will always fall back on the past, and killing will always be acceptable if its in the name of "freedom". I guess its OK if you smile.

chivo

[Shadow]

Perhaps Russia should issue a request to join the EU. 

[Kuna]

I mention this as we see the markets stumble around the world.

It was interesting to read the other day that Washington express deep concern, and cautioned the Russian government to stop meddling for its 5 billion dollar sell off to keep the ruble from further decline.

What was so interesting was that yesterday's fallout from the Lehman Brothers fiasco, that other country's, most notably China and Japan, basically did the same thing, with the help of Britain and the US, without a peep from the politicos in either country (the west).

I have no doubt that the last thing the US wants is for Russia to become strong again. While Russia certainly has caused some of its problems, and its history is far from commendable, the US surely in the last 8 years, doesn't have much to say, or should be throwing any stones, that's for sure.

The hypocrisy that the US and other western countries aim at Russia is so blatant that Ray Charles could see it if he was still alive. While their are things I'm proud of from my country, their are many things that make me bow my head in shame.

I certainly see it (hypocrisy) from the Americans on this board. The rhetoric will always fall back on the past, and killing will always be acceptable if its in the name of "freedom". I guess its OK if you smile.

chivo

chivo,

I couldn't agree more with your comments except where you talk about bowing your head in shame. Whilst the hypocrites should be ashamed of themselves, your introspection proves you're a cut above.

The (often) constant criticism of Russia and all things Russia makes me wonder what a few of the men here really think of their wives families...  a terrible situation really when a few have such a poor ability to understand and accept things that are different.

[groovlstk]

The (often) constant criticism of Russia and all things Russia makes me wonder what a few of the men here really think of their wives families...  a terrible situation really when a few have such a poor ability to understand and accept things that are different.

Kuna, I sometimes scratch my head and wonder the same thing, and I'll add this:

There are guys here who criticize nearly every aspect of Russia/Ukraine and their culture (almost always against a backdrop of how the US or the West is superior), yet have somehow justified in their own minds that their gf/fiance/wife miraculously emerged untainted and pure as driven snow from the dreck. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

[Misha]

There are guys here who criticize nearly every aspect of Russia/Ukraine and their culture (almost always against a backdrop of how the US or the West is superior), yet have somehow justified in their own minds that their gf/fiance/wife miraculously emerged untainted and pure as driven snow from the dreck. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Well, I wonder why some husbands feel the need to put on rose-colored glasses and become apologists for the Russian state. Would I say that my wife is pure as driven snow? No, but I love her for who she is and all her imperfections, and I am happy that she reciprocates and loves me and all my imperfections. However, that is not relevant to the discussion. The problem is that some people interpret any critique of Russia as hating Russia and all its culture. I am sorry, but the two are not the same. For example, I am more than capable of simultaneously criticizing the Bush administration of the United States and yet value and respect many other elements of American culture. Likewise, though there are many things that I love about Russian culture, I do not support the policies that have been implemented by Putin in recent years.

[Ade]

Kuna, I sometimes scratch my head and wonder the same thing, and I'll add this:

There are guys here who criticize nearly every aspect of Russia/Ukraine and their culture (almost always against a backdrop of how the US or the West is superior), yet have somehow justified in their own minds that their gf/fiance/wife miraculously emerged untainted and pure as driven snow from the dreck. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

I agree wholeheartedly and just as annoying, if criticism is levelled at the US for similar things then it's usually seen by these same people as "anti-american" rather than an objective critique.

[groovlstk]

Well, I wonder why some husbands feel the need to put on rose-colored glasses and become apologists for the Russian state. Would I say that my wife is pure as driven snow? No, but I love her for who she is and all her imperfections, and I am happy that she reciprocates and loves me and all my imperfections. However, that is not relevant to the discussion. The problem is that some people interpret any critique of Russia as hating Russia and all its culture. I am sorry, but the two are not the same. For example, I am more than capable of simultaneously criticizing the Bush administration of the United States and yet value and respect many other elements of American culture. Likewise, though there are many things that I love about Russian culture, I do not support the policies that have been implemented by Putin in recent years.

Misha, don't know if you're referring to me personally, but if you took the time to read my history here (not that I'd expect you to do something so boring and unrewarding, however  ) you'd see that I've often criticized Russia. The fact that I have zero sympathy for the neocons who'd love to go to war to defend an egomaniacal Georgian president who started the whole mess and who has about as little claim to democratic principles as Putin doesn't make me an apologist for the Russian state.

That said, politics represents only a few pixels of the entire picture I was referring to. Some guys here love to point out how "bad" Russian men are - they're terrible alcoholics, lazy at work, those in positions of power force sweet and innocent Russian women to have sex with them in order to keep their jobs, etc. Corruption pervades every aspect of life. Racism and sexism run rampant and unchecked. They cheat at everything. They are superstitious and primitive.

I'm not saying that there isn't a grain or two of truth to the paragraph above - you can slap many of the same accusations against segments of US society, also - but to paint everything absolute black or white and then have the audacity to claim that their gfs - who were raised in this culture and have ties to it as strong and enduring as steel cable - somehow were unaffected by the environment they were raised in is pretty ridiculous. 

[Misha]

Misha, don't know if you're referring to me personally, but if you took the time to read my history here (not that I'd expect you to do something so boring and unrewarding, however  )

No, I was alluding to Shadow to be perfectly honest. He is the one who asked me why I hate Russia (or something to that effect) because I am critical of Russia.  :evil:

[groovlstk]

He is the one who asked me why I hate Russia (or something to that effect) because I am critical of Russia.  :evil:

Sounds like my wife, actually 

[roykirk]

I'm also frequently critical of Russia and their troublesome goose-stepping recently, but I'm also highly embarrassed to be an American after the past 8 years, especially when I'm traveling.  It used to be something I was proud to admit if asked, unfortunately that's no longer true and hasn't been for awhile.  There have been times when I've thought if I could find a similar paying job and hours to what I make now, I'd move permanently to somewhere a little more enlightened, like Canada or to Europe.  The Neo-Cons can call it anti-American, it doesn't matter much to me.  In the situation with Georgia and Russia, I've commented to my girlfriend that when the entire world is against you and your actions, it should put an inkling of doubt in to most sane people's heads about whether you're doing the right thing.  I think she's finally starting to see that.  Unfortunately, there's a lot of my fellow hillbilly Americans that see such opposition as a challenge.  "Screw 'em!  We're America, we can do whatever we want and who cares what people think!"   

So anyway, my vitriol goes both ways.  I'm disgusted by the whole state of the world most days.  When you realize your own country causes about 50% of it, it makes you want to move to the South Pole and build an igloo.

[chivo]

Of course there's enough blame to go around, be it Russia, the USA, or whoever. Is it that we tend to focus too much on the negative?

I think the reason I started this thread was to give a little balance. I'm glad you all took it that way.

I certainly would like the US to stop trying to play the part of world policeman to everybody. Lord knows it should concern itself more with what's going on within its borders. Things are hardly in good shape there, and I'm not just talking about the current crisis going on.

I do find it strange to see foreigners persuing RW, yet feel so negative about things in Russia, and Russians in general.

I started this process regarding russia because I like many things about this culture, and well mostly the women  . Seriously, if you don't like the culture, why try to marry a woman from here. What/who do you think you'll be living with?

Good luck

chivo

Kuna, thanks for the kind words.

[roykirk]

Of course there's enough blame to go around, be it Russia, the USA, or whoever. Is it that we tend to focus too much on the negative?

I think the reason I started this thread was to give a little balance. I'm glad you all took it that way.

I certainly would like the US to stop trying to play the part of world policeman to everybody. Lord knows it should concern itself more with what's going on within its borders. Things are hardly in good shape there, and I'm not just talking about the current crisis going on.

I do find it strange to see foreigners persuing RW, yet feel so negative about things in Russia, and Russians in general.

I started this process regarding russia because I like many things about this culture, and well mostly the women  . Seriously, if you don't like the culture, why try to marry a woman from here. What/who do you think you'll be living with?

Good luck

chivo

Kuna, thanks for the kind words.

Well, speaking only for myself, I love the Russian culture, I just hate the government.  I'm slightly annoyed by some Russians who have the illness of blind nationalism, but that's because they remind me of the same people we have here who live off of Fox News. 

[Misha]

Seriously, if you don't like the culture, why try to marry a woman from here. What/who do you think you'll be living with?

Well, my wife hasn't invaded any countries lately; she hasn't even claimed to be a "peace keeper" in neighboring countries   I agree that you should like the culture of the country from where your wife originated. That does not mean that you obligated to like the politics of the country where she is from. Likewise, I know many wonderful Americans and consider them good friends, even though I abhor some of Bush's policies.

[Sculpto]

Famous latin American folk musician and revolutionary, Gabino Palomares said/sang upon the fall of the Soviet Union.. "Como ya no hay comunismo, el mundo esta en peligro"

That translates to...

'Now that there is no Soviet state the world is in danger.'

His reference was to a USA with no counter balance of power in the world.  As things have evolved he could not have been more correct.

Personally given the choice betwen a strong Russia or a strong China.. well.. I will take a strong Russia any day of the week over China.  Putin and Co. may be getting hard handed but the People have had at least a taste of freedom and with the seemingly inbred nature to "beat the system" I believe no matter how hard the authorities try the People will somehow find ways to subvert the power structure, not that much differently than sometimes goes on here in the States.  In China on the other hand.. I think the brainwashing is quite complete which makes China a far more dangerous country in many ways.. with you know.. 5000 years of empire under their belts...

[BillyB]

In a forum that deals with the FSU, I actually see too many negative things talked about America. At least the negative talk about Russia is on theme somewhat. We can talk day and night about one's personal opinions on the negatives and positives of each nation but one way you can gauge a nation is based on the people coming and going and right now the population in Russia is declining and America's population will explode if we didn't restrict immigration. I certainly see an overwhelming amount of Western/FSU couples living in Western nations and not the FSU. People have spoken with their feet.

[Blues Fairy]

I certainly see an overwhelming amount of Western/FSU couples living in Western nations and not the FSU. People have spoken with their feet.

Perhaps because the overwhelming majority of Western people don't want to go settle in Russia, not because their FSU spouses WANT to leave FSU.  My husband would never live in Moscow and does not know the language, whereas I know both languages and could easily live anywhere.  So the choice is obvious.   

[Shadow]

No, I was alluding to Shadow to be perfectly honest. He is the one who asked me why I hate Russia (or something to that effect) because I am critical of Russia.  :evil:

Misha it was a question that I asked by request of my wife. 
Your answer was more than satisfying, however the topic showed that the balance of information available in the 'US' media was different to the balance available in Russia. I still believe that Russia has played this game very well, and even with some (hidden) cooperation from the US. The Dollar/Euro rate has been corrected and oil price is down. Both things are vital at this time for the US economy, which means the conflict has been very beneficial. Russia has some short-term effects, but they will be solved. If needed Medvedev can always send Putin home and announce a 'new wind' to get back investors.

[BillyB]

Perhaps because the overwhelming majority of Western people don't want to go settle in Russia, not because their FSU spouses WANT to leave FSU. 

That is correct. Both the Western man and FSU women weigh what is best for their life. Nothing wrong with that. At visajouney.com, America women are bringing in foreign men in a large scale too. Those people in their minds factor in what is the best place they could live between both countries that they are from for financial security, government, safety, best place for their children to grow, etc... After they examine the truth or their opinion from our prepectives, most of them choose a Western nation. Maybe most people got it wrong and FSU is the better choice to raise families but IMO like most people's, I doubt it. The FSU does have the most beautiful women in the World and beats the USA hands down.

[Sculpto]

Billy.. with all respect i have a simple question for you.  Have you ever lived outside the USA? 

I can not speak for everyone here.. only for myself.. but.. in a lot of places in the world with lower per capita income and supposedly lower standards of living many people are actually happier and more content with their lives that what we commonly experience here in the USA.. or is typical for that matter in the FSU.  Both the USA and Russia have very high rates of mental disease, especially depression and bi-polar disorder, though, I suspect for very different reasons.  Both countries have high rates of social violence, drug and alcohol abuse, divorce and both nations are especially plagued with real class A idiots running the government and industry. 

Now take Brazil on the other hand.. low level of standard of living by US standards.. crummy houses by US standards... rotten education by US standards.. and so on... yet.. who are the happiest most life celebrating people on planet earth?

Some things are just more important than what US culture seems to value the most.  In fact.. since I happen to speak fluent Spanish and live in an area with a huge Spanish speaking population.. one would be quite suprised at how disatisfied most legal and illegal immigrants are with their lives here.  Why?  simple.. here it is just work work work.. no chance to ever celebrate life.. stuck in the car all day long with no opportunity to visit friends and family.. it is an isolating and degrading experience.  for those of us that grew up in it.. with all the benefits of a middle class lifestyle.. it can seem like it is not possible for there to be a better way of life anyplace else in the world.. but I can tell you from first hand experience.. the simple life of a spear fisherman on the pacific coast of Mexico beats the hell out of commuting in the Bay Area... and yes.. I will eventually go when I have in my "pocket" the required financials to satisfy the Mexican immigration rules.  And hopefully my anti-US, Russian girlfriend will love the tropical lifestyle as much as I do. 

[BillyB]

Billy.. with all respect i have a simple question for you.  Have you ever lived outside the USA? 

 I was born in Vietnam and I've lived in Germany for four years and I've visited more countries than I've got fingers. I work with immigrants nearly everyday in construction, mostly Mexicans and they don't want to go back. A guy who works for me said it took him three attempts to get here. He's legal now but people will risk their life to cross the desert as many times as necessary to get here. There was in the news nationwide(USA) to inform illegal immigrants to get a free ticket home a few weeks ago. It was a disaster. I think one guy showed up the first day and only a handful took up the offer. Ask those disatisfied immigrants who complained about their life here why they didn't accept the offer to go back home?

It doesn't matter if Brazil has the happiest people in the World, give people around the World a choice and USA would be #1. People may not like American politics but they wouldn't mind reaping the benefits of it's policies. There used to be a poster here named Andrew from England. He never had a nice thing to say about USA but he did put out some stats that said people from England are moving here at a ratio of 2.5 to 1 over Americans moving to England. Numbers like that and higher can be applied when matching most any country to the USA when it comes to people coming and going. This is not my opinion. This is fact based on people who spoken with their feet.

[Shadow]

BillyB a couple of years ago my country would have beaten yours in relative terms.
But as it can lodge only so many, laws have become such that entry is now much more difficult, and actively discouraged.

People are not attracted by the country, but by the money. Without the American Dream of becoming rich, people's feet will vote very different.

[kievstar]

I lived in Sao Paulo Brazil and people there are not that happy.  Most work 6 days a week to put food on the table.  A lot of commuters spend 3-4 hours on a bus per day to get work in Sao Paulo as they have to live a long ways to afford housing. 

Not sure where you got that there the happiest people in the world. 

[BillyB]

People are not attracted by the country, but by the money. Without the American Dream of becoming rich, people's feet will vote very different.

Having more money is not a bad thing, the love of it is. Money is just a tool to exchange goods, eat, and buy the security one needs among other things. America's way of life and it's policies provide that money more easily for people to attain what they want. It would be nice to hear the citizens of the World say they are living the Russian, Ethiopian, North Korean, Iranian, etc... Dream and they are living happily where they're at. Unfortunately for many people in the World, life sucks.