That was then, this is now

[KenC]

There has been a lot of talk here regarding the difference between how things were done in the process ten years ago to now.  Was it easier then or now.  Was it more treacherous then or now.  Just how have the agencies changed?  Is the prevalence of home computers in the fsu good or bad for the guys involved today?

Travel should be a given as something that has grossly improved over time.  I will say that my first trip to Russia was ten years ago and I didn't have any problem with visa's or hotels back then, so maybe the travel difficulties predates 1998.

The ability to communicate directly with the women today, is the one biggest benefits today IMO.  With the increased availability of computers in the fsu, I would think would be a great improvement for the guys today.  When I think about the couples that have daily chats, some with cameras, it is a big improvement over what was available years ago.  Although most of our communication was done by phone and I do not think that the intimacy of speaking directly to each other can be topped by anything today except the camera thingy.

Your thoughts?
KenC

[AugustD]

Well I did not look 10 years ago so certainly cannot compare though I do think some of those making comparisons are looking at "easier pickings" type of thing with then to now.  Frankly I know I was LUCKY as Hell this time and cannot say I would have been so lucky 10 years ago so I have no idea.  But I can speak to travel and communication.

Travel now is a piece of cake.  Of course it depends on where you are going but there is no comparison to travel 10 years ago.  I would be interested to hear about how it was to travel in the past.  Compare my 9.5 hour direct from O'Hare to Moscow, a layover and a 1.25 hour flight to Kazan.  I would like to hear some historical experiences in a similar path.

The communication.  Well compare the cost of the phone from then to  now.  I hooked up dsl at her apartment for $25 a month and I can talk with her via skype whenever I wish.  Throw in the videocam and it is a better connection than I would think it was previously.  I have also put a vonage softphone in her laptop with a local number to me so I can call her from my cell phone, my parents, my office, or wherever if I wish.  She can also.  It is a free call.  Put on top of this the availability to email for her.  Was it as readily available in FSU 10 years ago?

There may have been less men looking a decade ago or more women willing to come to the US or whatever but I know I only needed one.  I lucked out.

[Turboguy]

Right at the moment I am very busy with a big project that I hope to wrap up soon.  Once I get it done I may try to put something together about my first trip or two.  I think some would find it pretty funny, some may enjoy seeing what it was like and how things have changed.  I will try and post it in this thread when I can. 

[KenC]

Right at the moment I am very busy with a big project that I hope to wrap up soon.  Once I get it done I may try to put something together about my first trip or two.  I think some would find it pretty funny, some may enjoy seeing what it was like and how things have changed.  I will try and post it in this thread when I can. 

As I told you in the PM, your input here would be greatly appreciated.  You are one guy that bridges the "then" to the "now"!
KenC

[LEGAL]

Great thread Ken!     Yes Turboguy is one to bridge the "then" to the "now"! The pressures on Turboguy.

[kievstar]

Travelling and communication is definitely easier today than 10 years ago.  Also finding a place to stay very easy.  I was married 10 years ago so not going to meet girls but I traveled all over the world for work and going to emerging countries was an adventure in itself.

Yes there are more guys visiting now but there a lot more women now too to see.  I have been using agencies for a little more than 3 years (dated a girl for 2 years so usually not using an agency).  But the girls now are better than the girls 3 years ago and there is a lot more of them.  A lot.  

Regarding economics girls may have higher standards now but that is hard to debate.  I have never yet seen a picture of a very young model looking girl with a western man who is not welloff.  Even 10 years ago.  I am talking magazine type attractiveness.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I think people understand what I am getting at.    But these welloff guys do know how to win a womens heart and trust.  

I think the big difference is guys who seem to do well in todays age do not write many letters and just fly and visit and go often.  Girls generally do not have the patience and want face to face meetings. Keyboard romeos do better in the smaller cities with less guy traffic but these smaller cities are getting more visitors.

I think it is easier today than 10 years.  But I do think the girls under 25 years old are very picky and you better be a good dater in your own country.  But I do not know, maybe girls under 25 years old 10 years ago where the same.  

A lot more information now to help in process.  Has to be easier today.  I cannot imagine it being any easier than it is today which is fairly simple.  Visit often, date within your league, and win her heart and trust.  Not hard.  

On a different angle - I think it is a lot harder for women now.  There are a lot of women to men.  I bet higher % now than 10 years ago.

[KenC]

Good post Kievstar!
You touched on something I would like to expand on.

[A lot more information now to help in process.  Has to be easier today.  I cannot imagine it being any easier than it is today which is fairly simple.  Visit often, date within your league, and win her heart and trust.  Not hard.

When I went to Russia ten years ago there was very little information available.  It was like the difference between flying a plane with or without radar.  When we went over, it was almost by the seat of our pants.  There wasn't the support group like we have here at RWD.  Today, it is almost easier to post a question here than to Google it.  Then we had to figure it out ourselves.

On a different angle - I think it is a lot harder for women now.  There are a lot of women to men.  I bet higher % now than 10 years ago.

Don't know if this is true or not.  More women involved today for sure, but isn't there also a lot more men involved too?  If those percentages have grown at the same pace, I have no idea.  One thing I would like to say is that the pretty girls never had a problem meeting foreign men.  My wife met at least a half dozen guys while she was listed with the agency, so meeting Americans was not as unusual as you may think.
KenC

[docetae]

Good post Kievstar!
You touched on something I would like to expand on.When I went to Russia ten years ago there was very little information available.  It was like the difference between flying a plane with or without radar.  When we went over, it was almost by the seat of our pants.  There wasn't the support group like we have here at RWD.  Today, it is almost easier to post a question here than to Google it.  Then we had to figure it out ourselves.Don't know if this is true or not.  More women involved today for sure, but isn't there also a lot more men involved too?  If those percentages have grown at the same pace, I have no idea.  One thing I would like to say is that the pretty girls never had a problem meeting foreign men.  My wife met at least a half dozen guys while she was listed with the agency, so meeting Americans was not as unusual as you may think.
KenC

I don't know for yesterday, but friend of my girlfriend received more than 120 messages the day after I posted (on her request) her profile on several sites... She is beautiful but not model looking and 33 years old. She receive at least 6 messages per day one month after...

It seems there are many more men than women willing to look for love abroad and publishing their infos on web site... This is not statistical but I was really surprised by this number of answers.

[Turboguy]

I will try to have the start of something up this afternoon.  I am working on a video for my business and have lags while it processes.   I am working on it during the lags.  Travel to the FSU got much easier every time I went.  Some of that was knowing what to expect and some was Russia becoming a part of the modern world.  I am going into some detail so I hope it won't be too boring.

[Admin]

There has been a lot of talk here regarding the difference between how things were done in the process ten years ago to now.  Was it easier then or now.  Was it more treacherous then or now.  Just how have the agencies changed?  Is the prevalence of home computers in the fsu good or bad for the guys involved today?

Travel should be a given as something that has grossly improved over time.  I will say that my first trip to Russia was ten years ago and I didn't have any problem with visa's or hotels back then, so maybe the travel difficulties predates 1998.

The ability to communicate directly with the women today, is the one biggest benefits today IMO.  With the increased availability of computers in the fsu, I would think would be a great improvement for the guys today.  When I think about the couples that have daily chats, some with cameras, it is a big improvement over what was available years ago.  Although most of our communication was done by phone and I do not think that the intimacy of speaking directly to each other can be topped by anything today except the camera thingy.

Your thoughts?
KenC

I found a few things from my trips back then. One of them was this UPDATED post about arrivals into Ukraine. I apparently did not keep the original from 1998, but this gives some idea of how things have changed since 2001:

International Arrival Process:

First -Kyiv (updated March 2001):

1 - Exit the airplane and head for the entry desks - along with the other passengers from your aircraft. Kyiv
actually has passenger-ways that allow passengers to disembark the aircraft directly into the terminal - much
as we have in Europe and the US. Most other airports in Ukraine use a shuttle verhicle to get you back and
forth from the terminal and the airplane.

2 - You follow a hall and go down a couple of flights of stairs. As you enter the area where the lines begin, you should see a desk to your right and individual Passport Control agents, maybe 8 or 10 of them, checking passports to your left. Your first stop is the insurance desk which is the one you see on your right when you enter the large room.

3 - Tell the person at the insurance desk (usually a woman) how long you are staying in Ukraine. This will
determine how much you will pay. I have never paid more than $7 and I have stayed as long as 3+ weeks.
They only take US Dollars, so be sure to have some small bills to pay the fee. They will give you a yellow
document that you must show the Passport Control agent at your next stop.

3A - Note, as of September 1, 2001 - the insurance requirement is *supposed* to be eliminated. When confirmed, I will revise the process to reflect it.

4 - Passport Control is directly across from the insurance desk. There will be lines for Ukrainian citizens and there will be lines for foreigners and they are marked in English. I don't recall how many of each, but it is a safe bet there will be fewer agents, hence longer lines, for foreigners. Obviously, you will need to find and join one of the lines for foreigners. I recall always passing through Passport Control in the lines to the right. There is a yellow line painted on the floor just as at every country in the world, including the US. It is not a problem. I think it is designed to prevent anarchy at the Passport Control agent's desk. Simply wait patiently behind the yellow line until the person in front of you has finished and then step forward.

5 - Passport Control is checking for 2 things. One - do you have a valid visa? If you have made it this far, the airlines have already checked that your visa is valid and it should be no problem. Two - they will ask for proof of insurance - the yellow document provided you at the insurance desk a few moments earlier. Assuming all is in order (it will be), they stamp your passport to show you have entered the country.

6 - Step forward to the baggage claim area. Since you have probably waited for a while by now - half an hour or more - your bags may already be on the carousel. If not, just wait and they should appear. If it takes too long, there is an Austrian Airlines agent that speaks excellent English that will be able to advise you as to what to do. Assuming no problems, retrieve your bags and put them onto a luggage cart - which you can
easily find in the baggage area.

7 - Now move towards the Customs area. As you step into this area, you will first have to place your bags on a large x-ray machine to be x-rayed. I've never seen anyone stopped at this point, but I *know* of someone that was stopped because they were carrying rolls of the new US $1 bill coins. Apparently it showed up as suspicious looking on the x-ray. There are two distinct channels and they are marked. Just look for signs that are posted high on the wall. There is a Red Channel for those that have declarations to make and there is a Green Channel for those with nothing to declare. The rules are written in English and they are not difficult to interpret. The following rules will help you decide if you are to use the Red Channel or the Green Channel - to use the Green Channel, you must have in your possession:

* less than 1 liter spirits
* less than 2 liters wine
* less than 200 grams tobacco
* less than $250 USD (or equivalent) value of other items
* less than $250 USD (or equivalent) worth of jewelry
* if Ukraine resident - less than 170 Grivna
* if NOT Ukraine resident - less than 85 Grivna
* less than $1000 USD (or equivalent) in foreign currency

In the event you exceed any of these thresholds, you are supposed to list all items on the Declaration form and use the Red Channel.

8 - BEFORE actually entering the Customs lines, you will need to retrieve the Customs declaration forms and complete them. The are directly across from the baggage carousel and next to Austrian Airlines baggage office. These forms are prepared in many languages - just look for the English version. Complete it according to the instructions. If the instructions appear obtuse - you can either ask the kind folks at the Austrian Airlines baggage office (you should be standing right in front of it), or fill it out as best you can and explain any confusion to the Customs agent upon introduction. They are usually pretty helpful. Frankly, it is best if you give the appearance of knowing what you are doing though, so I'd ask at Austrian Airlines if I had any questions.

9 - It is best to declare any valuables that you intend to take back out of the country (camera, jewelry,
laptop computer, etc.). Also declare the cash you are bringing into the country. It is legal (though, perhaps
not advisable) to bring up to $10,000 USD in cash and up to $50,000 USD (or equivalent other currency) in
traveller's cheques into Ukraine. If you have more than a small amount of cash (I *think* it is $250 USD or
equivalent), then you MUST include the cash on your declarations form. Next, stand in the line for the Red
Channel and wait your turn. They may ask you a few questions - depending on the language skills of your
particular agent. Just answer honestly and it should be a painless process.

9a - To be clear, there are 4 major steps. A) Insurance, B) Passport Control C) Baggage Claim and Declaration Form, and D) Customs. That's it.

10 - Now you begin the process to exit the airport. You will find a throng of people waiting to meet arriving
passengers. It is nice if you have someone there to meet you. If not - be prepared for a barrage of 'taxi'
drivers wanting to drive you to the city. Your best bet is to walk through all these 'taxi' drivers (briskly) and
head out toward the right-hand side of the airport where you will find an exit. These guys are persistent, so
just keep walking. Once outside (you'll still be getting propositioned from the drivers) - look directly across
from the airport entrance - and a little to the right and about 100 yards away, you should see a legitimate taxi stand where they have cars that are clearly painted as taxis. This is where you are heading. Be sure to tell the taxi driver that you want him to use the meter. If it isn't working immediately - stop him and get another driver.

Note - the airport is quite a distance from the city, so depending on where you are staying it can take as long
as an hour to get you there. Don't be nervous if it takes a while to drive to your destination.

OK - I think that should do it. It will get you out of the airport and into the excitement and chaos that is Kyiv.

SUPPLEMENT (as of August 2000):

I recently discovered that Kyiv (and other entryway cities in Ukraine) offers a VIP service for arriving passengers. It must be pre-arranged and the cost as of this writing was $62 USD. The service works as follows:

1 - Disembark the aircraft as above. As you walk down the hallway, you will be met with someone that has a sign with your name on it. This person will coordinate your processing through the VIP terminal.

2 - Instead of following the throngs of people to the insurance and passport control desks, you will exit the building and climb into a small mini-van.  You should also provide your baggage claim checks to the coordinator (the person holding the sign with your name on it).

3 - The mini-van will deliver you to the VIP terminal (Terminal ‘C’) a short distance from the main terminal.

4 - The coordinator will take your passport and assist you (if needed) with Customs Declaration Form preparation - and then deliver them to the appropriate agent.

5 - You sit and have a cold soda (or beer) and wait for a few minutes while they process your passport and for your baggage to arrive.

6 - Once your baggage has arrived (it is specially expedited from the aircraft), you simply answer a few questions from the Customs agent, and you are finished.

Total time elapsed - usually less then 30 minutes.

Note that Boryspil airport actually has 3 separate terminal buildings. The main terminal, and the one that everyone usually refers to when they refer to Boryspil, is Terminal B. The VIP terminal is terminal C, and there is another small terminal called Terminal A which is used for some domestic flights

Next - Odesa (as of November 1998):

1 - Odesa uses a system to shuttle passengers from the airport to the terminal where you will first enter a
'bus' that will be waiting at the bottom of the steps when you get off the airplane and will unload all passengers in front of the entrance to the terminal building.

2 - Upon entrance into the hall, looking straight ahead, you will see 2 or 3 Passport Control Agents. Before you get to the Passport Control Agents, you need to buy insurance which is sold at a small kiosk which is very inconspicuously placed where you might have difficulty seeing it if you don't know it's there. It is to your immediate left when you enter the room and the window itself is facing the direction of the Passport Control agents, hence, you must enter, see Passport Control, then look BACK to see the insurance window. Buy your insurance (see Kyiv above - same deal in Odesa).

[Note: See item 3A Above - for Kyiv]

3 - Proceed to Passport Control. Since there are only 2 (maybe 3, but I seem to recall only 2) lines, it may be one is for foreigners and the other is for returning Ukrainians. Present your passport and insurance form and wait for the agent to stamp your passport. He/she may ask you why you are visiting Ukraine, but just answer honestly and it should be no problem.

4 - Next, proceed directly forward to the baggage claim area. I do not recall any carousels here. I believe I
had quite a wait till the baggage handlers brought all the baggage into the terminal by hand and placed it in
the hall for retrieval by the owners.

5 - Further, I recall no specific Customs area. Once you retrieve your bags, if Customs decides to check
something, you will be summoned (or motioned) over to one of the desks that surround the baggage claim area and invited to answer a few questions and open your luggage (if they desire).

6 - Please note that there are recent reports of serious corruption among the Customs agents in Odesa.
Apparently one of the ploys is to find inbound travellers that have declared both a significant amount of cash AND some items of value such as a camera or laptop computer. They will then challenge the traveller with a claim that the valuable items are dutiable and must be either left with Customs until departure (yeah - right!), or the duty paid then and there. Any attempts to force them to produce proof of their rights to assess fees and duties results in detention. This ploy usually results in the extraction of $100 or so - depending on what the agent thinks they can get away with. I know of no way to successfully counter this ploy - so, at least be forewarned!

7 - After Customs has finished with you --smile--, you exit through some doors that are clearly marked. If I
recall correctly, the stations you move through between entering the terminal once the bus leaves you off -
all the way though exiting past Customs is all one station after another and they are all straight ahead. No left or right turns that I recall.

8 - Once again, you will usually see quite a few people waiting for arriving passengers and you will be subject to taxi drivers wanting your business. My experiences in Odesa have led me to believe that the taxi drivers are not so dishonest as in Kyiv, so I usually take the first one that appears decent.

Departures

1 - First, a word of caution. Numerous foreign travelers have been subject to hassles while departing Kyiv’s Boryspil airport. The police seem to be targeting foreign travelers that are pressed for time as they are trying to catch an airplane. They challenge your paperwork to insure you have properly registered your stay with the local OVIR office. If you have not, they will hassle you until they extract a bit of cash (usually less than $100 USD) and then allow you to (barely) make your plane. This practice was documented in the Kyiv Post newspaper a few months back and it seems to be getting a bit worse since then.

1A - Ukraine recently eliminated the OVIR/VVIR registration requirement for most foreign visitors. Your stamp of entry from the Passport Control agent represents your official authorization to enter and stay in Ukraine.

2 - Approach the main Terminal (Terminal ‘B’) and enter the main doors. Once inside, your first step is to clear Customs which will be to your right in the next room. As you make your way there, this is the area that most people are confronted by the police, so move briskly.

3 - The Green Channel is to the far right and immediately adjacent to a small café. The line moves briskly, so even though the lines may be long, it shouldn’t take more than about 10 minutes to clear the Customs desk. They almost always ask if you are taking out any icons or antiques, and they *always* ask about the amount of currency you have in your possession. They will probably also ask for your initial Declaration form you completed when you arrived.

Note: the airlines only open for check-in exactly 2 hours before scheduled departure. If you arrive to the airport earlier than this, you are unnecessarily exposing yourself to a greater risk of being confronted by the police as you wait around for the desk to open. You are not allowed to process through Customs until the airport desk for your flight is opened.

4 - Once you clear Customs, you take your bags to be x-rayed. There is only one machine and it is impossible to get lost. Place your bags on the machine and retrieve them when they are x-rayed. I’ve never seen anyone stopped to have their bags examined, so don’t be too concerned about that.

5 - Once you retrieve your bags, head over to the airline check-in desk which is straight-ahead - impossible to miss. Check your luggage and receive your boarding pass.

6 - Next is to go upstairs to the departure area. Prior to entering the departure area, you will need to have your passport reviewed and stamped. From there, you will pass through security. It is no different than security in western Europe or here in the US, so don’t sweat it.

7 - Now you are in the departure area and can have a drink or sandwich at the restaurant there - or buy something from the duty-free shops. In any case, just wait till they call your flight number (yes, in English), and then proceed to the appropriate gate. Since there are only 4 gates, it isn’t too difficult to find your way.

Next - Lviv

I have visited Lviv, but arrival was by train, hence, I do not know about the international airport arrival
process. If anyone has specific step-by-step instructions, please post them and I will incorporate them into
future posts.

Miscellaneous:

Since procedures in Ukraine constantly change, I am confident that what I have written will be different soon - if it is not already. Anyone travelling to these locations that sees any differences in what I have posted - or wishes to share more elaborate descriptions - please send me e-mail or post corrections. My e-mail address is => icpilot_at_yahoo.com.

Domestic Plane Travel:

I have taken domestic Ukrainian airline travel only a few times. It is always an adventure! I'll be happy to share my experiences, if anyone would wish.

Train:

I have taken quite a few trains in Ukraine and would be happy to share my experiences with Ukrainian train
travel as well. If there is enough interest, perhaps a 'step-by-step' of what to expect would be useful. Just let
me know.

Since domestic Ukrainian plane and train travel does not involve Customs interaction, I suspect it will be of far less interest than the international arrival process. Anyway, just let me know if anyone would like more
information.

Arrivals into Boryspil has changed dramatically since the time I published this. Insurance requirements are gone. OVIR/VVIR registration is gone. The need for a visa is gone. Access to the baggage claim area is now much different.

Back then, arranging domestic flights internally in Ukraine was virtually impossible from outside the country. Now, not so.

Apartments were not something one could reserve in advance - now, it is available right here at RWD.

HUGE changes.

- Dan

[Admin]

Here is my ancient write-up (circa 2000) on acquiring a visa for Ukraine:

Let me start by saying that I've traveled to Ukraine quite a number of times these past few years. In the past, I've always used and recommended the services of a travel specialist such as RJ's Tours (a frequent poster on this board). Based on recent changes (05 May 2000) in Ukraine's visa regulations which relaxed the formal invitation requirement for *some* types of visas, I decided to acquire my own visa for my travels. I have also provided coaching to others how to do this and all, so far, have been successful.

There are probably only 3 types of visas the readership of this board needs to be concerned about - Tourist, Private, and Business. Here are a couple of important facts to be considered:

* Invitations. Ukraine no longer requires invitations for Private or Business visas. Formal invitations *are still* required for Tourist visas, however. This applies to citizens of North America, the EU and Japan. Citizens of other countries should check with the Ukrainian Embassy in their locales to confirm requirements.

* Both Tourist and Private visas are issued for a maximum term of validity of 6 months. A Business visa may be issued for a maximum term of 3 years, but are more commonly issued for 1- or 2-year terms, at the discretion of the Consulate/Embassy issuing the visa.

Now, the step-by-step process for acquiring a Private visa is as follows:

1 - I use the Consulate General of Ukraine in Chicago. There are others, but this is the one I chose. Send a self-addressed and stamped envelope along with a letter requesting an original visa application form to:

Consulate General of Ukraine
10 East Huron Street
Chicago, IL 60611.

Additional Consular Offices:

Consulate General of Ukraine in New York
240 East 49th Street
New York, NY 10017
http://www.brama.com/ua-consulate/index.html

Embassy of Ukraine
3350 M St., NW
Washington, D.C. 20007
http://www.ukremb.com

You must have an original application form. They no longer accept faxes or copies of the originals.

2 - Once you receive the form, complete all the sections. Your biggest problem will probably be to decide if you are applying for a Tourist visa or a Private visa. With recent changes in Ukraine's visa laws, it is easier to obtain a Private visa, so that is what I suggest you request. To make this request, simply insure that section 15 of the application (Purpose of Your Journey) states: "To visit friends and relatives" - and you will need to supply a name and address for a local person in section 20 (Private Person Who Invites). Not to worry about the Consulate checking with them or anything - they do not. Prior to May 5 of 2000, you needed a formal invitation. Now, simply writing a name and address suffices.
Contact me by e-mail if you need help on this point.

2a - Notes for completion each section of the Application:

Section 1 - Surname - write it exactly as it appears in your passport
Section 2 - Full Name - First name only - write it exactly as it appears in your passport
Section 3 - Other Names or Surnames - Middle name - write it exactly as it appears in your passport
Section 4 - Date of Birth - self-explanatory
Section 5 - Sex - self-explanatory
Section 6 - Nationality - country of your citizenship (ex. USA)
Section 7 - Personal Number - for USA citizens, this is your Social Security number
Section 8 - Address of Permanent Residence - self-explanatory
Section 9 - Passport Details - write it exactly as it appears in your passport
Section 10 - Marital Status - self-explanatory
Section 11 - Infectious Diseases - asks for active infections
Section 12 - Criminal Offenses - don’t worry about traffic/minor offenses - only major or felony offenses
Section 13 - Ever Been Prohibited/Limited from Entry into Ukraine - self-explanatory
Section 14 - Ever Been Deported/Removed from Ukraine - self-explanatory
Section 15 - Purpose of Your Journey - (ex. “Visit family and friends” - for Private visa)
Section 16 - Duration of Stay in Ukraine - must be less than 6 months for Private/Tourist visa
Section 17 - Date of Proposed Entry to Ukraine - be sure to state an exact date that is clearly in advance of the date you plan to arrive in Ukraine. Do NOT state a range of dates. Your visa will not be valid until this date, so it is extremely important that you indicate a date that is earlier than your earliest possible date of travel.
Section 18 - Point of Entry to Ukraine - self-explanatory (ex. “Kyiv” or “Odesa” or . . .)
Section 19 - Means of Transport for Entry to Ukraine - usually an airline company such as “Austrian Airlines” or “Lufthansa”
Section 20 - Name and Address of Organization/Person Which/Who Invites - for Business visa, identify the primary business you will work with - for Private visa, identify the person you will spend time with. Note: There is NO direct connection between this entry on the visa application form and the subsequent OVIR/VVIR registration that must be conducted after you arrive in the country. The Consulate does NOT check out the validity of the address, nor do they check with the people/entity named on the application. Prior to May 2000, it was required to supply an official invitation for all visa types. Now, it is NOT necessary to supply the invitation for Private or Business visas, *but* it remains a requirement for a Tourist visa.
Section 21 - Cities in Ukraine you Intend to Visit - self-explanatory. Note: this information does NOT limit your travels once within the country. Present laws allow you to travel wherever you wish.
Section 22 - Address of Temporary Residence in Ukraine - can be a friend’s address (Private visa), or can be a hotel.
Section 23 - In Case of Need Who Will Give Financial Support - can be your friend’s name (Private visa), can be your company or the company that invites you (Business visa).
Section 24 - Children Under 16 Included on Your Passport that Will Travel With You - self-explanatory
Section 25 - Date of Last Visit to Ukraine - self-explanatory
Section 26 - Visa Requested for [Single/Double/Multiple] Entry - self-explanatory
Sections 27 through 31 are only for those seeking Transit visas
Section 27 - Country of Destination
Section 28 - Means of Transport to Point of Departure from Ukraine
Section 29 - Entry Clearance for Destination Y/N
Section 30 - Place of Proposed Departure from Ukraine to Destination
Section 31 - Date of Proposed Departure from Ukraine
Section 32 - Additional Information - it is a good idea to EXPLICITLY state your desires for the duration of the visa. Example - “Please issue a Private visa that is valid for 6 months” or “Please issue a multiple-entry Business visa that is valid for 3 years”.

3 - Assuming you are applying for a Private (also called 'Home-Stay') visa, you will need to send a completed package to the Consulate with the following items:

* completed application form.
* passport
* one passport-sized photo
* money order in the appropriate amount - (no personal checks or cash). Note: some Consulates require 2 separate money orders - one for the processing fee and another for the visa itself.
* self-addressed and stamped envelope (so they can return your passport with the visa stamp).

That is all.

As for fees, there is a static fee of $45 to process any visa application. There are 2 other variables. Will you wish to enter Ukraine more than once during the 6-month term of the visa? If so - you need a double-entry visa. The other variable is - how quickly do you need the visa processed? The range is from Next Business Day to 10 Business Days. Here are the fees for Private and Tourist visas:

Regular (10-days) Single-entry: $30
Rush (5-days) Single-entry: $60
Expedited (1-day) Single-entry: $100
Regular (10-days) Double-entry: $60
Rush (5-days) Double-entry: $120
Expedited (1-day) Double-entry: $180

The range of total costs is from $75 ($45 + $30) up to $225.

Keep in mind the processing time is all in Business Days and the Consulate works fewer days than most. My experience is that 10 Business Days equals 3 full weeks and that was with using courier (UPS) service for delivery of documents in both directions.

As a reference you can find the Ukraine Consulate of Chicago's website at this address => http://www.ukrchicago.com.

A final point, the Tourist visa is *really* what most travelers would normally request. Unfortunately, Ukraine continues to create barriers to tourism by requiring that all applications for Tourist visas be accompanied with a formal invitation from the hotel where the traveler intends to stay. If you choose to go the route of the Tourist visa, I can suggest a couple of travel agents that deal specifically with Ukraine and can help you.

I hope this helps.

- Dan

Now, there is no visa requirement for a short-term visit to Ukraine.

- Dan

[Misha]

My first trip to Russia was in 1995. Moscow was a different city back then. You would walk down the streets and it was one big open bazaars. You would have babushkas selling a hammer, babushkas selling flowers from their dachas, meat being hacked on stumps with axes....

There were some advantages back then: it was very cheap to travel anywhere in Russia (including Moscow). On my first trip, I spent $1000 CDN and traveled from Estonia, to Latvia, to St. Petersburg and Russia. I was there a month simply traveling and did not run out of money.

Back then, the MOB business was focused on catalogs. Anastasia was the main company back then. You would have to buy address, send letters, and wait a month or two for an answer. It was much harder: e-mail and the internet was still in its infancy in Russia (and in North America); you browsed the web on dial-up, and in Canada long distance international calls still cost a fortune.

Now, you have millions of women of free dating sites (nonexistent 10 years ago), everybody has heard of e-mail, calling Russia is now dirt cheap compared to back then. The main disadvantage is that traveling to Russia has become that much more expensive. Many of the cheap hotels have either been torn down or renovated. They now charge an arm and a leg. Food and other expenses are now as expensive or even more expensive than in North America.  

[KenC]

Dan,
I must have had a great travel agent back then.  When I called him to make some flight reservations to Moscow is when I found out I needed a visa! :selfharm:  Some how he was able to pull it all off for me as my trip was a little spur of the moment too.  IRRC, I received my visa the day before my flight!

Misha,
You touched on costs.  Other than phone costs, I bet everything else is waaay higher now.  Even though I had phone bills in the $500 to $700 range, a dinner for 4 with all the bells and whistles (and drinks) ran $42 in Tver.  I pulled off my first trip to Russia for about $2,500 and that was including the gouge factor from the agency for one of their flats.
KenC

[kievstar]

Maybe more letters being written to girls but actually visits.  I think with the ease of letter writing now and you can do it for free once first phone call.  I think % of visits to growing number of women is less.

For example, In Sevastopol one of the main writers fro Anastiaweb (Vika) tells me how she gets letters from certain men every week for three years - no visits.  They like writing letters.  They also tend to always write the new girl.  A new girl in anastiaweb can generate 1000 letters a month no problem, however, maybe only 10 visits a month.  Odds of these 10 guys who like her and her being interested in them is remote.  Most guys who visit tend to be of bad quality according to my connections.  

There are girls who get a lot dates in person.  But how many good men are really visiting them.

[Turboguy]

Part 1, Getting there the first time.

I always had a bit of a fascination with women from other countries.   I had occasionally dated some women who were from outside the country but living here.   Sometime in the early 1990’s I got interested in exploring this interest a little more.

I had seen some ad’s for a place called Cherry Blossoms. They had a magazine and sold addresses I started to write to a few women.   Most of the ones I was writing were from South America and Asia.   I wrote some nice ladies but none really grabbed my attention enough to make a trip. 

Cherry Blossoms would occasionally have a few women from Russia and had a disclaimer in their catalog about Russian Women.   It said Russian women were trained not to smile in the photos and wore little make up but really they were often prettier than they looked.   In the few photos they had, the clothing often looked more like an Army uniform and the hair was often in a tight bun.  Not quite what I would see a few years later.

I never thought that much about RW.  One day in 1995 or so a friend who knew I was writing some women from out of the country showed me a catalog from a company called Club Prima.  It was about 30 pages of Russian women who were unbelievably beautiful.   I was hooked. 

I began to write.   I would sit for hours and hours writing women using mail since e-mail even here was virtually unknown.   From the time you wrote until you heard back was usually 4 to 6 weeks.   If you were making arrangements to meet by mail you really needed months and months to set your plans up.  Looking back I should have used the phone more.   International phone calls were very expensive and most girls in those days really didn’t expect phone calls and few even gave a phone number.

Anyway, I was writing to a lot of very nice women.  I bought a map of Russia and Ukraine and started to plot out where they were.  All the cities had strange sounding names and finding them on the map was tough.   When I was done it looked as if you had thrown darts at the map blindfolded.   They were scattered all over the place.   I picked Moscow, Perm and Kiev for my first trip in 1996.

I wandered up the street to my favorite and very knowledgeable small town travel agent who had arranged many international trips for me.    I told Theda, the travel agent, I wanted to go to Russia and Ukraine.   She looked at me with a funny look and said she had been to Russia about 10 years before and why would anyone want to go to that God awful place? 

I had purchased a book and tape set called Russian Fast and Easy and began to learn some Russian.  I tried to find a travel guidebook to Russia and even that was hard. Tourists just did not go there in those days.   After visiting 4-5 bookstores I finally found one. 

Theda, my travel agent made the plane reservations pretty easily except for Perm.   Aeroflot and flights inside Russia were not in the system.    She whipped out a big book about the size of a NYC phonebook of worldwide hotels.   Moscow showed one hotel.  It was a French hotel called the Cosmos.   She faxed them.   She found one hotel in Kiev for me.   She managed to find some Visa applications from her trip to Russia and gave me a copy.  It was totally in Russian with no instructions, just the form.

The tourist guide book I had found gave little info on Visa’s but did give the phone number of the Russian and Ukraine Embassy.   The phone number for the Ukraine embassy never worked or at least they never answered the phone.  I called the Russian Embassy.   The gal who answered the phone had a beautiful accent but was about as rude as could be.  She told me there was an automated fax number that would send me the info and gave me the number.   I called it and entered my fax number.   About 5 minutes later the fax rang and started to spit out applications.   Actually something was jammed and it spit the same thing out for an hour until I finally unplugged it.  So, what I had was 100 sets of the same thing the travel agent had given me, all in Russian,  with no instructions about what to send, where to send it or how much to include.

I started planning my trip a few months ahead.   At three weeks before the trip I had no visas, no real idea for sure if I could get my visas, no flight to Perm and no hotel in Moscow.  Washington DC was only 5 hours away.  I was thinking about going down and just going to the embassies and staying however long I had to.  About that time I was passing through a big city and stopped at a bookstore and saw a different travel guide to Russia and Ukraine.  I bought it and looking at the visa info they had the phone number of an agency in Washington DC that arranged Visa’s   I called them and yes, they could arrange the visa.   I sent everything off and that worry was behind me. 

Theda was having no luck with a Hotel in Moscow.  She kept faxing the Cosmos and they would never reply.  Two days before my trip she threw up her hands and said I was on my own for a hotel in Moscow.    The idea of going someplace like Moscow with no place to stay was not comforting.

I tried calling the guy with the visa service in Washington and asked if he knew anyone who could arrange a hotel in Moscow.   He said yes and gave me the number of a Russian travel agent in NYC.   I called and they said they would work on it.  I kept calling back and they would only say “They were working on it”   Flight day arrived.   I still had no hotel reservations for Moscow.   I made a last call before heading for the airport.  No, they had not heard back.   I landed at JFK and tried again.  Yes, they had a reservation for me at the Cosmos.   I could now breathe easily.     

Part 2 coming later.  Moscow

[KenC]

WOW, Turbo, great stuff, please keep it coming.
KenC

[Misha]

Misha,
You touched on costs.  Other than phone costs, I bet everything else is waaay higher now. 

As I said, $1,000 for 30 days. This covered: train fares (Tallinn-Riga-Moscow-St-Petersburg-Tallinn); hotels/hostels, food, museums, the occasional beer....

True, I was looking for the cheapest ways to travel and the cheapest places to stay, but there I no way I could travel so much for so little today. It would cost me at least 2 or 3 times as much today to do the same trip and I would be doing a lot less.

[tfcrew]

I had seen some ad’s for a place called Cherry Blossoms. They had a magazine and sold addresses I started to write to a few women....   

I remember Cherry Blossoms. It didn't really cost all that much to get addresses in the Philippines and Indonesia.
Other than just the addresses...the visa procedure was never really fully revealed.
 

 

 

[Mishenka]

My little tidbits,

My first trip to moscow was in 1999.  Russian visa was $30 and Travel was much cheaper tickets $560 RT LAX to Moscow. The USD was worth more because Prices in Russia were dirt cheap then compared to now. In this respect it was cheaper to travel but not easier. More stress at the airports, registration, I did not go with a tour, I was alone, so everything was new to me.  3-4 star (not rated) Hotels cost me 11 per night included breakfast and I could add lunch and dinner for $6 more.Total cost for the  hotel with food, 17 bucks, or 102.000 rubles. Ruble exchange was 6000 to 1 usd at that time. Food bought in local stores cost me $6 per day.  A quality ice cream bar from the hotel was under .50 for something as good as a dove bar in USA that cost $3 A pair of new boots I bought for my interpreter Asya on Arbot in a local store cost $40 now would cost $150- 200 US. Interpreter was $20 per day, now cost $100?   I didn't need to take much cash with me because I stayed and ate with her Russian family and friends that cooked great food. Taking the metro or bus was .25 each way.  in SVO2 this April 2008 I paid USD 19 for a cup of tea and fruit salad.

I stayed 10 days on the ground my first trip.  I don't remember the banks taking visa cards that that time. Not many ATM's around either. Because of so much fraud, most banks/credit unions in USA now will not allowing transactions from Russia and block them unless you have prior consent and tell the bank you are traveling, then the bank will unblock them as I did when I traveled in March/April this year.  Thank God for internet banking, free Skype calls and easy contact with USA while in Tashkent. Now most Hotels and banks take Visa, some take mastercard, most will change dollars to rubles, but the fee is higher than in banks, changing money on the street is still not legal but if you know the right people, your dollars are worth more. in this respect times are easier.

The process of immigration was much easier before the events of 9/11/01, and became more difficult again as of January 08. Mostly because of the volume in millions of applications each year being processed and the degree of security measures that have changed the waiting time. FBI background checks, terrorist name list check, finger print  are adding as much as 6 months to the process now. What used to take 6 months total is taking 10-12 months now, and even longer as we hear from some. If your fiance' is Russian from a FSU Muslim country like Uzbekistan, or the Islamic republics they seem to be tougher to get approval and take longer to process. I'm speaking about FSU republics with a population of 88% Muslim, 8 % Russian like Uzbekistan, Tajikistan. In this respect it is harder to immigrate than 10 years ago. The cost of immigration has more than doubled.

Looking at cost of living, Russians in Moscow earn much more but prices are much higher they have about the same buying power as 10 years ago. Rubles were 6000 to 1 USD, then after 2000 went to 6 to 1, after the currency change and now stand at 26 to 1, making prices even higher.  Cost of living is relative. Back then 1999, and 2001.  I feel Russians were more friendly with Americans back then, than they are today. A flat in Moscow was USD $800 per month for a foreigner, $200 per month for a registered Muscovite. Huge difference today in cost of living. Rents now are out of control in the city. Some hotels $300 per night. You can't take the Metro for .25 anymore. In comparison, quality of life maybe better for some, imports are more available so the appearance of quality of life looks better from the outside,credit is more available to people, there are more cars on the streets, more crowded.  Behind closed doors they still struggle to keep their heads above water according to my friends there. They still say the quality of is better for most in general than it was 10 years ago.

With the internet and travel so much more available in the workplace and in Russian homes, this makes contact much easier in larger cities,  not so much outside the metro areas, People in small cities still have slow internet and poor cell phone coverage. It beats better than waiting 3 months to get a package as it did in the 90's. Mail delivery is much faster now,  international priority mail arrives in 8 days on average to larger cities served by local airports.  

More women, more choices, better traveled, more educated, more US men traveling there, millions more Russians living in USA?  Well, this is all true, because they all seem to have friends who know someone who have married men outside Russia and they are living happily ever after.  It's not as much a mystery as it was 10 years ago.  

[Chicagoguy]

I first went in 1992. Part business and part tourist.

You really needed a guide as they weren't prepared for visitors. Only a very few hotels were available. Hammer and sickle emblems were still seen. There was no dating as we know it now. The women were only beginning to come out of their shell. Restaurants were only in hotels as far as I could see. $$ could only be spent at stores called Birch - like the tree. And very few of those. $$ could only be exchanged on the black market.

Very few cars. People parked in the middle of Tvererskaya in front of National Hotel.
Only nice car I saw was a BMW with Nebraska plates.   How ???

The Metro looked the same. And the Russian people were extremely hospitable ! I should have kept a diary but I do have some video.

And I am still friends with some of the same people I met then. Saw some in January when I went to Omsk and some came here this Summer. One couple actually moved to Chicago with their son in '94.

[Gator]

Travel

My first trip was in 1987 to visit friends with the Dutch Embassy.  It was USSR and not Russia. 

As Chicagoguy noted, few cars.  We drove up to the Kremlin wall, parked the car (plenty of spaces) and paid nothing.  When we returned, several Russians were taking photos of each other standing in front of my friend’s Benz. 

The Gum sold plastic shoes and the like. Outside the store selling TVs people jammed together to stare at the illuminated screens.  Men queued to the stores selling vodka.

One ruble was worth  $1.50 officially, except on the streets where a dollar would buy 10-15 rubles (if you risked it as it was highly illegal).  

When arriving, passport control poked a thin needle through my passport photo.  When exiting, I was interrogated for 20 minutes by an incongruous trio of Soviet officials because I did not stay at a hotel.  They did not attach the visa to my passport nor stamp it.

[Gator]

Meeting Women Then vs. Now

I made two trips preceded by letter writing campaigns. 

In 2002 I wrote 60-70 women whose addresses I had purchased from AFA and Angelica.   I would email the agency who would send the letter via email to the woman’s address.  About 67% of the women I wrote responded favorably.  Less than half had email - the others sent snail mail to the agency.

Why write so many women?  The response was so fantastic that I kept raising my target. 

After a few letters, I started calling the RW/UW.  Soon I had a list of 8 women in 4 cities and I took a 30-day trip to meet them and to see their country.  I made my own travel arrangements and did not use a guide.  Actually, all of the women spoke English and became my de facto guide (best way to fly in my opinion). 

Even in 2002 most of the women had dated foreign men before me.  Most seemed committed to move and to start a new life.

I tried again in 2005-2006.   This time I wrote fewer women and concentrated on older women (early 40s).  By writing older women and having the wisdom from dating a RW for three years, one would think that I would receive a higher response rate than in 2002.  Nope!  It declined to less than 50%.  Why?  I assume older women were simply more selective because they had raised their children and were not desperate for stepfather/provider.

[Sculpto]

Lots of great information in this thread guys.  I am guessing some of you might have been waiting for me to speak up since I may have partly provoked things...

I have seen a lot of discussion about how difficult it was to actually arrive in the FSU ten+ years ago.. as well as the difficulty in communicating with snail mail.  All valid points and certainly the improved infrastructure over there and on the web has made things a lot easier.  On the surface anyway.

Maybe, no, probably I am just weird.    Three years ago when I first went to Ukraine I chose to visit Donetsk specifically because it was not easy to go there.  I liked it because I could NOT find much information about it on the web.  I am quite sure the friendly reception I constantly recieved while in Donetsk was because it was a rare occasion that a foreigner would visit.  With the EuroCup heading to Donetsk and the influx of soccer hooligans I doubt Donetsk will remain as friendly as it was when I visited.

There were numerous occasions in the evenings by the fountain in the center when someone heard me speaking English to the person on the bench next to me that more and more people would wander over and join the conversation.  On one occasion the crowd grew so large with EVERYONE trying to practice their English on me at the same time that I had to call "Time Out!"   

On another occasion when my new friends were busy and I found myself alone one evening I sat down next to the statue of Lenin.  Within five minutes the youngsters drinking beers ten meters away came over to ask me to join them.  When they found out I was from the USA they absolutely demanded to drink beer with me.  I thought, "Great, now I have to buy beer for 20 guys" but no.. on the contrary.. they all threw their money together to buy beer for the whole group and for me.  They wouldn't even think of taking my money.  It reminded me of the social community I was part of when I lived in Mexico.  Everyone would kick in what they had and share equally.

I seriously doubt that open generosity will continue after the EuroCup.

I seriously doubt the ladies will be so friendly as they were.. simply sitting on the bench I met so many nice women.  After the roughnecks arrive I am quite sure they will see Western Men in a very different way, which unfortunately will not be entirely accurate and a negative judgement will be made on the basis of the soccer sub culture.

However.. there is one point that I have not seen discussed so far.. and it was the basis of my critique in the other thread.

When "you" went to the FSU ten+ years ago.. how did the reaction of the ladies differ from how it does today?  That is the crux of why i think it was easier then as opposed to now.  Every day we hear stories of guys meeting insincere women.. women who put their "gifts" into a guys shopping cart.. women who expect to be taken out to eat immediately after meeting.. women who expect shopping sprees.. and so on and so on.  Now it seems like trying to find a needle in a haystack.. was it the same years ago?  And I do not mean in the sense of correspondence, but, in IRL meetings.

If I had been more aware ten years ago and knew about FSU ladies I would have totally enjoyed the difficulties and challenges of travelling there. 

[dispozo]

Every day we hear stories of guys meeting insincere women.. women who put their "gifts" into a guys shopping cart.. women who expect to be taken out to eat immediately after meeting.. women who expect shopping sprees.. and so on and so on.  

I feel it is easier now.....

There is so many ways to connect with people now. There is a lot more useful information about dating and finding a FSU lady now and what to look out for. If someone does his home work. The odds of finding a good lady is very good and the odds of getting scammed in much less.

The examples you talked showed that he was prepared. He had read this board and knew what was happening. He put a end to it and if he did not read this board he may have let this go on.

Just my opinion...

[msmoby_ru]

There has been a lot of talk here regarding the difference between how things were done in the process ten years ago to now.  Was it easier then or now.  Was it more treacherous then or now.  Just how have the agencies changed?  Is the prevalence of home computers in the fsu good or bad for the guys involved today?

As *I* was one of the people who took you up on this, I'm glad of the opportunity to contribute. A Good subject for a thread..

Travel should be a given as something that has grossly improved over time.  I will say that my first trip to Russia was ten years ago and I didn't have any problem with visa's or hotels back then, so maybe the travel difficulties predates 1998.

I've been travelling to the UA, then RU via Cyprus for nearly 7 years and visited some states that were part of the FSU and are now independent.  Travel HAS got easier ( more sources to obtain Visas) and relatively cheaper ... but once there - as you pointed out - the costs are FAR higher relatively - than before.

The ability to communicate directly with the women today, is the one biggest benefits today IMO.  With the increased availability of computers in the fsu, I would think would be a great improvement for the guys today.  When I think about the couples that have daily chats, some with cameras, it is a big improvement over what was available years ago.  Although most of our communication was done by phone and I do not think that the intimacy of speaking directly to each other can be topped by anything today except the camera thingy.

Your thoughts?
KenC

The cost of calls via voice over IP, ( voIP -internet)  sms and competition betwen phone companies has brought down the cost of communication considerably - sadly not enough to places like the Ukraine ( Belarus is MUCH more expensive, again) - where the termination charges are kept high.

More ladies have access to the internet and so the dependence on agencies has been much reduced.

It is only just over two years ago that someone in Russia often had to pay to RECEIVE calls on their mobile (cell) phones.

Unlike Kievstar - sorry - *I* think a guy is going to find it  HARDER to find a good 'un as there are far more "competitors" and the ladies can be more choosey - even if there are more of them .. ! It could even be conteneded that some "waters" are over-fished" and one needs to look farther afield.  I'm not suggesting ( for example ) "forgetting" ( say)  Kiev - I just think places -  like Siberia and towns and cities farther from the normal "hubs" have a greater number of FSUW who might not be "jaded" by some of the WM who visit ( IMHO) for ALL the wrong reasons, with "crazy" expectations and who, frankly speaking, "spoil" it for those who follow.