That was then, this is now

[kievstar]

msmoby, your probably right about harder for some guys if they have not adapted to what women want in a man.  But these men should be focusing on improving themselves before going overseas.  I find dating women in Kiev the same as Chicago or Brussels.  It is very easy if you have what women want.  But is Kiev and other cities really overfished?? Kiev has added more than 200,00 women in past 10 years.  So the population of women is a lot higher.  Most of these women are younger coming to work in Kiev. But you will not find them in agencies but you will find them on the free internet sites.  Method of finding women has changed a little over time.

I do think the overall quality of women (appearance) has increased in Ukraine do the easier life women have now. When I look at women over 40 years old in Ukraine they look very old and beaten down generally.  Not all women but most. Hard lives make people age.  I cannot speak about Russia only Ukraine.  Women who tend to be poor in the USA also age fast. 

In Ukraine I still see think the best place to look for an attractive girl with smarts is Kiev.  Most jobs that pay decent money are in Kiev.  So girls with ambition are going to head to Kiev.  But if you want a stay at home wife than smaller cities maybe better.  I think guys need to be careful of Kharkov.  A lot of guys are going there now but going after girls younger than 25 years old is playing with dynamite.  Girls older than 26 years old usually know what they want in life. 

Just my thoughts.  But seems very simple to me right now finding RW. 

[msmoby_ru]

I do think the overall quality of women (appearance) has increased in Ukraine do the easier life women have now. When I look at women over 40 years old in Ukraine they look very old and beaten down generally.  Not all women but most. Hard lives make people age.  I cannot speak about Russia only Ukraine.  Women who tend to be poor in the USA also age fast. 

Ooops, I found the opposite to be true of FSUW in their 40's..!!

As I'm nearly 50, now, I chose to date FSUW in their 40's and mostly found them to be astonishingly young looking..

All of them were single Mums bring up teenage kids, holding down full-time jobs (one was supporting her then 24 yr old son , daughter-in law and GRAND CHILD) 

They were VERY attractive and had bodies most girls in their TEENS would have died for.. 

These ladies have had VERY hard lives and they were just coming good - they had good careers in Kiev and had wanted ME to move there....  At the time 4-5 yrs ago, this did not seem an attractive financial or life-style option to me .. Guess what..? Kiev BOOMED - they were right ..

My wife is as near as damn it 40 and most folk think her son is her brother.... she did NOT have it easy, either - sharing a one bed apartment for many years with Mums / Mother in laws and they all worked to make ends meet... OK, it wasn't UA - but it was just after the USSR was breaking up.

May be I was "lucky" or "choosey" - but I don't think so...

In Ukraine I still see think the best place to look for an attractive girl with smarts is Kiev.  Most jobs that pay decent money are in Kiev.  So girls with ambition are going to head to Kiev.

In general, agreed..

But if you want a stay at home wife than smaller cities maybe better. 

Hmm .. Many ladies in the provinces don't / didn't have the opportunity to move to Kiev - especially if they had kids, and now could never afford to move - even if they wanted to...

There were quite a few ladies I talked to / met who were very intelligent and KNEW Kiev was the place to go - if based in UA, but many couldn't find work - having been laid off - and would have liked to be able to move - but couldn't.

I think guys need to be careful of Kharkov.  A lot of guys are going there now but going after girls younger than 25 years old is playing with dynamite.  Girls older than 26 years old usually know what they want in life. 

Why single out this city ?! As an "old git" I'd agree that "older" women are more certain of their needs and more mature about what they are...

Just my thoughts.  But seems very simple to me right now finding RW. 

To find, may be - but many of the ladies in the "well-fished" areas are "jaded" with WM and the dating scene...

[Misha]

Hmm .. Many ladies in the provinces don't / didn't have the opportunity to move to Kiev - especially if they had kids, and now could never afford to move - even if they wanted to...

Demographics plays a role as well. My wife was born at the tail end of a baby boom (relatively speaking). Shortly afterwards, there was a bust. Consequently, it was much harder for a woman from the regions to successfully write the entrance exams to study in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Now, as there are fewer young men and women in their early twenties, it has become much easier for a young woman from the regions to go to Moscow or any other large city to study. If she studies in Moscow or any large city, she is likely to stay there.

[davidbdc]

What has changed in Russia over the past 10 years?

Well, 10 years ago the ruble was in the gutter.  The average person was lucky if they made $200/month, there was poor leadship in the country and things generally looked bleak.

I have several Russian friends and the main difference 10 years ago was that a decent % of people wanted to GET OUT.  And basically to anywhere.  USA was the first choice, Europe the second, and some would settle for the Middle East/Turkey.  They had some friends of their that did the internet dating/marriage agency thing for a few years.  Russian women were much more open to the idea of leaving IMO ten years ago.  You need to understand that historically in the USSR you moved out of your parents flat and got your own place to live when you got married - and you married young.  Generally speaking a Russian woman views "love" much differently than a Western woman - more of a checklist approach to winning her heart.

Today, Russia is booming (and not just Moscow and St Pete).  There is opportunity and it is visible.  National pride is back.  Women have career opportunities (and still the pressure for marriage and kids).  They have the own flats in many cases.  10 years ago they lived with their parents until they married.  Ten years ago there was no thought to foreign travel as no one had the money.  Today they are likely to have taken trips to Turkey, Thailand, Egypt, etc.  There is an upper class of Russian men for materialistic women to chase after (and that group of wealth is very large).  10 years ago if you came and had a house, a car and made 75K you were unbelievably rich.....today your a middle age loser, NEXT.  Russian women today know much much more about the outside world than 10 years ago.

Travel TO Russia is much easier today.  BUT it is much more expensive.  Moscow is the most expensive city in the world.  Western run hotels will run you $300-$600 USD/night in Moscow.  Travel within Russia via air is easier from Moscow/St Pete.  You can now book on some airlines over the internet and more and more will follow I'm sure.  But even that is only recent....it was only about 9 months ago that St. Pete allowed you to enter checkin without having a paper ticket, and some immigration folks still want to see your paper tickets.  Internally, its still a little iffy but much improved to 10 years ago.  I can remember going to the airport in Kazan and being told that actually no flight today (Monday)...try to come on Wednesday and maybe there will be a flight  The recent changes to registration makes things easier....and with the olympics coming to Sochi I think visa's will get even easier.

I'm sure there are some Russian women that take to the internet to try to find someone when they haven't found anyone locally.  And some of them are truly interested in meeting foreigners.....but I personally think its a much much smaller number than 8-10 years ago and its due to the economy.  The last time I looked at a Russian dating site I'd estimate that 60% of the photos I saw were basically not placed by women.....10 years ago I think that 90% of the pictures were legitimate.  

[Ooooops]

I first went in 1992. There was no dating as we know it now. The women were only beginning to come out of their shell.

I wonder what is "dating as we know it now"?    

[Mishenka]

I wonder what is "dating as we know it now"?    

I can't answer for him but it looks like he meant, in the 90's there were fewer RW coming out of their shell, meaning  fewer RW were available to date compared to the millions we see flooding the internet today.  It's clear with immigration statistics, nearly 970 THOUSAND visa's were approved in 2007 with nearly half that number being fiance or fiancee visa's.  This shows the huge business of international dating sites we have today compared to 10 or 15 years ago. The selection is overwhelming.  Now 10 years later, AM and RW have an unlimited selection to choose from.  This is why so many of us say, meet, date and visit many before making a final choice.  The whole world is a different place because of the WWW.  Russia can no longer sensor their people from the West as in times past.  The same goes with US propaganda about Russia, We can not know a people until we have lived among them. When I lived among the Russian families in the 90's I learned of their great love for family, and their close friends, and how hard a woman works to take the best care of her family. It reminded me of the early years living in USA.  Now much of this attitude in American women is non existant. Few AW care about their husband and children like a RW does.  Few AW know how or are willing to raise their children like Russian mothers do.  Maybe it's just a sign of the times. Quality family values are easier to find in RW than in AW, I think this is the main attraction, it is as important or more important than the beauty and gracefulness that RW possess.

Mishenka

[BC]

It's clear with immigration statistics, nearly 970 million visa's were approved in 2007 with nearly half that number being fiance or fiancee visa's.  This shows the huge business of international dating sites we have today compared to 10 or 15 years ago.

huh??

[Ooooops]

It's clear with immigration statistics, nearly 970 million visa's were approved in 2007 with nearly half that number being fiance or fiancee visa's. 

Mishenka, where did you get those numbers?   Take a look - http://www.dhs.gov/ximgtn/statistics/   -   Nonimmigrant Admissions to the United States: 2007   - Alien fiance of US citizens - 38,507.

Few AW care about their husband and children like a RW does.  Few AW know how or are willing to raise their children like Russian mothers do.

I guess I'm surrounded by very exceptional American women as they are nothing like you describe.    

[Mishenka]

Sorry about that typo,  The total number of visa's granted in 2007 was 970,000   as in thousand  not million, of all types.  Another case of typing ahead of my thinking,  if you are surounded by great AW thats wonderful, not to many like that exist in Sounthern CA.  Then again, we live in a different world here full of wealth and selfish ambition.  I got the numbers off USCIS.

U.S. Immigration Facts

"Nearly 70,000 foreigners arrive in the United States every day. Most of these travelers are visitors, not settlers. More than 60,000 are tourists, business people, students, or foreign workers who are welcomed at airports and border crossings. About 2,200 daily arrivals are immigrants or refugees who have been invited to become permanent residents of the United States. Finally, about 5,000 foreigners make unauthorized entries each day. About 4,000 of them are apprehended just after they cross the U.S.-Mexico border. But nearly 1,000 elude detection, or slip from legal to illegal status by violating the terms of their visas. Many will remain, while others will return to their home countries."

Approximately 28.4 million foreign-born people live in the United States, representing 10.4 percent of the U.S. population.

Recent shifts in patterns of immigration have resulted in a much more racially and ethnically diverse foreign-born population.

Prior to the mid-20th century, immigrants came primarily from northwestern Europe (Great Britain, Ireland, Germany, Scandinavia, France) and from Canada. By 1999, there had been a dramatic shift. Over half of the foreign-born population now originated from Latin America. Europe accounts for only 16 percent, and Canada for 3 percent. Only 2% of the foreign-born originated in Africa.

Relatively few (10%) of the foreign-born are under age 18 compared with 28.3 percent of the native population. The largest percentage of foreign born are in the 35-39 age group.

The foreign born are more geographically concentrated than the native-born population. Three-quarters of the foreign-born population is concentrated in just eight states (California, New York, Florida, Texas, New Jersey, Illinois, Massachusetts, and Arizona
The foreign born are more likely than natives to live inside central cities of metropolitan areas.

The 1990 census tabulated almost 32 million speakers of hundreds of languages from other continents as well as more than 330,000 people speaking more than 130 native North American languages at home.

More than one in five legal immigrants settle in California, and the 355,600 immigrants who landed there and in New York in 1996 represented 39 percent of U.S. immigration. New York City alone was the planned destination of 15 percent of immigrants.

With such a large share of immigrants heading to just two states, it's no wonder that some states receive very few. Idaho, Kentucky, Nebraska, and South Carolina each claimed only 0.2 percent of immigrants in 1996. The 8,100 people who planned to go to these four states were fewer in number than those thinking of living in El Paso, Texas.

Mexico was the country of origin for the largest share, at 18 percent. The Philippines was next, at 6 percent, followed by India, Vietnam, and China, 5 percent each.

Immigration has a modest but positive effect on the U.S. economy, according to American Demographics, adding about $10 billion a year to America's economic output. Even more important is the contribution immigrants and their children make just by being here to provide workers and leaders for the future. If today's immigration totals hold steady, it will account for about two-thirds of U.S. population growth over the next 50 years.

[tfcrew]

From Table 1 ...

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ois_ni_fr_2007.pdf

Total 2007 visas exceeded 3.5 million.
2006 nearly 3.2 million.
I was stunned by these figures.
Fiancee visas accounted for the 38,000 or so mentioned by Oooops = 0.1 % of the total.

[groovlstk]

Now much of this attitude in American women is non existant. Few AW care about their husband and children like a RW does.  Few AW know how or are willing to raise their children like Russian mothers do.
Mishenka

BS 

[Mishenka]

BS 

just your opinion, look at the divorce rate. I'm at least half right.
My point is RW for me have the qualities I seek in a wife and mother and far exceed the qualities in AW.  There is no contest there.

The visa numbers are staggering, so are the illegal numbers, making my point even stronger that there are more Russian women to choose from than there were 10 years ago and more AM for them to choose from than 10 years ago. We can all be more picky about who we end up with now than years ago.

[tfcrew]

A glance at divorce rates...
 
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

It is best to not generalize stuff.

 

[Mishenka]

Here are some interesting numbers to consider over the years 2002- 03 AND 04. check the last paragraph, number of visa's BEFORE  we had WWW dating sites.  Notice how the numbers increase each year to what it is now.

The yearly breakdowns follow:
2002, Nonimmigrants admitted to the United States on a K1 Visa (by country)

1,447 - Russia*
1,266 - Ukraine*
961 - United Kingdom
287 - Germany
241 - Poland
202 - Romania
117 - France
111 - Netherlands
95 - Belarus
80 - Moldova

Other former Soviet Republics: Kazakhstan (56), Latvia (48), Lithuania (46), Uzbekistan (46), Kyrgyzstan (36), Armenia (25), Estonia (21), Azerbaijan (14), Georgia (7), Turkmenistan (4) and Tajikistan (0).
* 442 visas were also issued for dependents of Russians receiving K1 visas. 524 such visas were issued to Ukrainians.

2003, Nonimmigrants admitted to the United States on a K1 Visa (by country)

1,814 - Russia
1,195 - Ukraine
976 - United Kingdom
253 - Germany
240 - Poland
192 - Romania
135 - Belarus
131 - France
80 - Ireland
65 - Uzbekistan

Former Soviet Republics: Moldova (76), Kazakhstan (61), Lithuania (57), Kyrgyzstan (48), Armenia (47), Latvia (44), Estonia (31), Azerbaijan (12), Georgia (11), Turkmenistan (6) and Tajikstan (Disclosure standards not met).

*Only six visas were issued to children of Ukrainians who had a pending immigration visa, such as a K1. Disclosure standards were not met in Russia. If you know what changed this year as opposed to the previous year, when there were so many more dependent-visas issued, please comment here.

2004, Nonimmigrants admitted to the United States on a K1 Visa (by country)

2,046 - Russia*
1,400 - Ukraine*
1,082 - United Kingdom
345 - Germany
323 - Romania
293 - Poland
152 - Belarus
130 - France
102 - Uzbekistan
98 - The Netherlands

Former Soviet Republics: Moldova (85), Kazakhstan (81), Lithuania (64), Kyrgyzstan (57), Latvia (48), Armenia (37), Estonia (27), Azerbaijan (21), Georgia (16), Turkmenistan (3), and Tajikistan (Disclosure standards not met).

* 10 visas issued to Russian dependents of those with a pending immigration visa. Six such visas issued to Ukrainians.

To put this into further perspective, in 1998, the year before everything went dot-com, 13,748 K1 visas were granted worldwide, with only 3,976 given to Europeans and 1,828 of those distributed within the Former Soviet Union (though for some reason the Baltic States were not included in that statistical grouping -- they had an additional 106 between them, with the fewest, 12,in Estonia.

All statistics supplied by the Office of Immigration Statistics, a division of the Department of Homeland Security that is in dire need of a new name. Come to America, where you're not just a citizen -- you're a statistic!



  

[Mishenka]

A glance at divorce rates...
 
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

It is best to not generalize stuff.

 

Can you find something more recent than 2002? 

still 50 % average in this country and in Russia today, making my point clear. Women are leaving men at alarming rates,  especially RW who have become much more independant in recent years. Thus the dating sites are filled with them. 

[groovlstk]

just your opinion, look at the divorce rate. I'm at least half right.
My point is RW for me have the qualities I seek in a wife and mother and far exceed the qualities in AW.  There is no contest there.

The visa numbers are staggering, so are the illegal numbers, making my point even stronger that there are more Russian women to choose from than there were 10 years ago and more AM for them to choose from than 10 years ago. We can all be more picky about who we end up with now than years ago.

Half right about what? That there are more western men marring russian women now than ten years ago?

Duh.

[Misha]

Few AW care about their husband and children like a RW does.  Few AW know how or are willing to raise their children like Russian mothers do.  Maybe it's just a sign of the times. Quality family values are easier to find in RW than in AW, I think this is the main attraction, it is as important or more important than the beauty and gracefulness that RW possess.

I can't speak of American women, but I can attest that Russian women are not necessarily any better or worse than Canadian women as wives and mothers. There is a fair share of great mothers and wives among Russian women as there are in Canadian women, and there is a fair share of terrible mothers as well in both populations. Likewise, Russian women don't necessarily have a monopoly on beauty and gracefulness as well.

[Sculpto]

I still wonder if the reception on the ground today is different than it was ten years ago. 

Last night I found some interesting articles...

http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/28318

http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/19360

[KenC]

.  Few AW know how or are willing to raise their children like Russian mothers do.  Mishenka

I would have to disagree with this based on my personal experience.  My ex was an excellent Mother to our children.  She was totally committed  to their development and welfare.  Helping with homework, providing a taxi service to them and their friends and was completely involved with their lives every step of the way.  It was all "hands on" and the children attended preschool only because it was recommended for the development of their social skills.

Lena, my current Russian wife has an entirely different outlook on child raising.  As she was mostly raised by her Grandparents and attended a day care.  In speaking to many different women from the fsu, it seems that they pass a huge amount of the child raising burden onto the grandparents, almost to the point where their own involvement in the child's up bringing is secondary.  I love my MIL, but I surely would not want her to raise my children.

I admit that these are only my experiences and others may be different.  There are good and bad mothers in both countries.  Let us not make RW into the "end all" of everything.  They have their good points and bad too.
KenC

[Sculpto]

Ken I think you make a good point.  I believe any particular mother, regardless of her origin, must be "judged" based on her own parenting skills. 

I think the agency propoganda about FSUW makes it appear as they are better mothers, or more suited to motherhood, than AW.  I think there are a lot of ways to disagree with the propoganda.. and a lot of cultural/economic conditions that change the equation.

For example.. in the USA these days most families with children live in suburban areas in rather big houses which are typically spread out and quite a distance from grandparents, friends, schools, shopping districts and so on.  For an AW that considers herself emancipated being an old fashioned stay home Mom is a really boring concept.  It amounts to being a driver, maid, cook... Outside of certain very religious communites with so called traditional family values this type of family structure is disappearing. 

Now, to contrast that with typical family arrangements, at least from what I have seen, in the FSU, things are totally different.  People live in much smaller spaces.  Extended families are far mroe likely to live nearby.  Schools, shopping and so on are much closer to the residence.  Now, the financial structures of families are somthing I do not understand very well.  Given the seemingly high numbers of single women with children, at least on marriage sites, it would seem that Granny daycare is probably very very common as you suggested in your post.  But, I wonder about families that are still intact. 

So, here are some questions..
Do women typically stay home with kids when there is a male bread winner in the family?
Are such women content with this lifestyle of cook, clean, shop, take care of kids?

[groovlstk]

So, here are some questions..
Do women typically stay home with kids when there is a male bread winner in the family?
Are such women content with this lifestyle of cook, clean, shop, take care of kids?

Based on Russian families I know, this is almost never the case, simply due to economics. Women were expected to work even during Soviet times and that continues today unless the husband is an oligarch or minigarch.

The idea that Russian women are somehow better mothers than American women (or any other women) is laughable - ask Mishenka how long he has been married to a Russian woman and how many children they have raised together.

[KenC]

Sculpto,
Groov answered with what I was typing at the same time!  Russian families were two income families long before Americans and their motivation was survival not to gain luxuries.  But the end result is the same, people other than the parents are primarily responsible for raising the children.  Grandma's take the brunt of the responsibilities but there is also a number of "day care" centers in place for years.

In my wife's case, she was heavily influenced by her grandparents as they raised her while her parents established their careers and even beyond.  Thankfully, she had great grandparents!
KenC

[Sculpto]

Now you guys have just blasted giant holes in one of the main propoganda tools of the agencies, that FSUW are content to stay home and take care of kids.  Not only that.. but it actually illuminates the level of corruption with a lot of the girls themselves who profess to want nothing more than to be a stay home mom.  Now, it is entirely possible these girls who have expressed such wishes are in fact themselves victims of agency propoganda.. I can see how agents might use this idea to lure girls into their agencies.. "join the agency and find a rich foreign man and never work again" or something of the sort.

It also explains why the girl I will go to see next month has been so stubborn all the time we have been in communication about NOT wanting to stay home and take care of babies.  That has always been a plus for me because I am not that interested in having children and neither is she.

[Misha]

Now you guys have just blasted giant holes in one of the main propoganda tools of the agencies, that FSUW are content to stay home and take care of kids. 

Well, the agencies do sell fantasies IMHO.

Not only that.. but it actually illuminates the level of corruption with a lot of the girls themselves who profess to want nothing more than to be a stay home mom. 

Well, the agencies doe teach the women what the men want to hear. For a classic case, you can go to Elena's (of Elena's Models) Russian-language site aimed at women: http://zamuzh.com/

Now, it is entirely possible these girls who have expressed such wishes are in fact themselves victims of agency propoganda.. I can see how agents might use this idea to lure girls into their agencies.. "join the agency and find a rich foreign man and never work again" or something of the sort.

Some women like the idea of not working. They are often exhausted by the demands of work and commuting at home in Russia. However, after a few months of not working, most will be climbing up the walls like my wife.

It also explains why the girl I will go to see next month has been so stubborn all the time we have been in communication about NOT wanting to stay home and take care of babies.  That has always been a plus for me because I am not that interested in having children and neither is she.

This, however, requires a different kind of realism. Not all women will be able to easily integrate into the workforce in their new countries and get the same kind of jobs they had back home.

[Ooooops]

My parents sent me off to grandparents "dacha" (great place, by the way, deep in the woods of Northern Russia  I loved it there and I adored my grandparents and vice versa ) every summer for 3 months since I was 5 till I was 16.   How many American mothers you know do that?