Some thoughts about scams

[Photo Guy]

That's funny and entertaining, but really...it's very sad. Apparently, most of the clients are just as bad as a bad agency.

[Bruno]

Of the guys that make the trip at least one third are weird enough for me to pretend to be French or Dutch so I don't have to speak with them.

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Maybe you need to speak with them... i know a little French agency running by a russian woman... she work with maximum 20 men in the same time... usualy, these men are married in the year... last year, she have make almost 100 marriage... and the price is not high... one time fee : 250 euro...

What make the difference ? Very simple, a man is accepted in the agency only after a interview... man need to show that he is able to support a future russian wife, he need to explain his motivation and need to reply all the question from the psychologue present during the interview...

Why do you think that mainly American are victim of scam, why the majority of the weirds are American... here, the working from marriage agency is regulated by law... not everybody can open a agency, you need to meet some minimum condition... in USA, the first weird with enough money can open a agency... it can be a simple cow-boy who have never go outside USA, never meet foreign woman... if he have enough money for start his business, it is enough... what quality of service can offert these weird !!! ... Of course, we have our own problem with foreign marriage in Europa but not so much that in USA... old retired men around 70 year old don't hunt young cutie in Russia, they hunt old woman in rest house... it seem that European are more realistic that American... maybe it is a part of the wel know "American dream"... but how much are able to realise these dream... for several, it become a nightware...

Leslie, maybe you can speak with Shadow, a dutch speaking man... he have recently bring a russian women home... and he is certainly not a weird... about French speaking men like me, maybe i am a weird... but i already know it... not like several of your english speaking friend who think that they are like a God but who are in reality a pack of sh!t.

 

[andrewfi]

Les ~ Tell that to the guys on RWG...

Some of this stuff I tend to forget about. I live in 'FSU Lite' and frankly things are both better and easier for most women. This, I have said before, why there are so few women looking for escape that there is almost no organised MOB activity. The last agency I knew of closed down a year or so ago.

But we, even here, forget how things are for many. I got an email from an angry Estonian woman the other day. She thought, wrongly, that I was writing about Estonian women in some of my posts and she felt insulted, but it seems her reality is not that of most women here. Even today when many girls can earn 800-900 euro per month (about 23 Euro per day after tax) that most are still earning around 300 euro or 9 Euro per day after tax, when we can take a girl out and easily drop 100 euro on the night, this is big money. It turns the head of Ms Average Waitress, or shopgirl. When I wonder how my American friend, recently arrived, gets multiple women in his bed, per night, I forget that, yes, most of these girls, (apologies to my Estonian correspondent) sleep on a sofa bed in an apartment shared with several others. That to go out for a night of drinking, dining and sex that costs half a months wages is a tad special. I have had women visit my apartment just to see what it looks like - and for me it is nothing special, but compared to what I had before, here and what most people have, it is huge, modern, luxurious and very comfortable. I remember one woman coming here and saying to me 'I dream of living in a place like this' another, who lived near my first home in Lasnamae exclaiming in delight when she saw I had a walk-in garderobe with sliding doors.

That is how we trun the heads of these women, raise their expectations and train them, without even trying.

I guess that if Iwere to tell the guy on the thread on RWG that he should simply not do anything when dating a girl over here that he would not do at home - not give money, not go to ostentatious places, not give excessive gifts etc etc he would not know what I meant. Way too many of these guys use MOB agencies as low grade porn, do not have relationships, except when they eventually get on the big silver bird and simply do not have any idea as to how to behave.

BTW, I agree strongly with Les about the nutters. This board has its share of the delusional, stunted and strange. RWG, on current evidence has more. Experience of meeting 'wife hunters' in general persuades me that those not posting on such boards as these are even worse. I am not sure, but I start to wonder if this is not just an issue of the guys who are seeking foreign wives as a cultural issue faced by Americans in general, of which foreign wife hunters are simply symptomatic.

BTW, for those I have met from these boards, most of the meetings have been interesting and pleasant, the ones that actually want to speak to me in real life seem to be the 'best of breed'! There was one guy though who had married, on a K3, a Russian doctor and gotten her pregnant whilst she was still living in Moscow. He was here on a regular visit to Tallinn to have sex with prostitutes and play the big man whilst planning his retirement when his high earning doctor wife would be supporting him in the US... Well he was too much, sorry mate, for walking away from you in the street, but you were just too much for me!

[Michelangelo]

I have no doubt that some of the men who seek a foreign wife are strange.  I was questioning that more than half are.

If it's really as bad as you say, I'm wondering WHY any of the agency owners here are still in the "business?"

I'll bet the word "majority" is overstated, and that the weird ones stand out and dominate the memories of those making these claims.

Well, on second thought, that leaves more decent girls for us normal, mature, serious guys!  That is if they are not scared away by all the weird ones!

I have noticed how well received I am in the FSU by girls....guess I'm the cream by the standards of what girls usually see with agency clients

[coco]

Ah Andrew and Leslie the last Mohican of the English enlightenment and your American cousins are now back to creationism.:dude:

[jb]

In my experience in travels to and from Russia I've met some lulu's, that's for sure.  I remember one time standing in the passport control line waiting to board my flight and there was a guy in front of me, dumpy little guy in his 50's, very little hair and a bad comb over.  He was giving tongue to a tall slim blond beauty of about 25 or so.  Before we got to the counter I saw him reach into his wallet and gave her all the USD he had left, looked to be about 400-500 bucks.  The girl had "Hooker" writ large all over her.  You know what I mean, she was not wearing the cheap plastic shoes that were so typical in Russia in that  day, this gal was decked out in the very best from Italy, makeup was perfect, and her lambskin coat was obviously expensive.

She waved him goodbye at the gate and left with a big smile on her face.  None of the tears you'd expect from a sad parting of true lovers, just a big smile.  And, I'm sure, he got on the plane thinking he'd found the "Pearl Beyond Price".  I don't know where he got hooked up with her, but that was during the time when romance tours were all the rage in Moscow and St. Pete.

The stupidity of some men is beyond belief.

[Bruno]

She waved him goodbye at the gate and left with a big smile on her face. None of the tears you'd expect from a sad parting of true lovers, just a big smile. And, I'm sure, he got on the plane thinking he'd found the "Pearl Beyond Price".

At the return of my last trip, i have see better... since the evenement i was at the airport from Odessa 6 hours before my departure...

I have see a good locking man, around 50 year old with a babe around 35 y.o... they was speaking english... of course, the woman have cry when he have go away for his departure... but the woman have stay around one hour at airport... waiting the next guy at the arrival door... of course, again a foreign man !!!

Very good organisation ... and good comedian :?

[Michelangelo]

The stupidity of some men is beyond belief.

Right, I agree.  I was simply reacting to Les's assertation that most men are like that...

We always notice and remember  extreme behaviour more than normal behaviour, which we don't even notice....

[Bruce]

This is a must read thread for newbies.  JB, what happened to that destinguished looking guy with the beard that was briefly under your name?   Suprised the heck out of me.  With that photo I think you are ready to run for congress - now you appeared.  Maybe I should get a photo in - nah, I like being a blue ball!  Thanks Les for retrieving your well written, though often forgotten advice.  

By the way, agencies are scamming women and women are getting wise to it as well.  One agency made an announcement that they were looking for English speaking translators, paying top dollars etc.  The English speaking girls had to come to an open call competition to "win" the job.  They had to take alot of photos besides "interview" for the jobs.  The next thing you know the agency had 100 or so girls who spoke fair to excellent English.  Thirty girls were knocked out of the "search" for poor photos.    The rest were posted as English speaking girls on their website.  How many got the jobs - why none of course.  How many were guys writing - too much $ for the agency to count.  Disreputable agencies get girls to doubt they ever will meet a Western guy using an agency  - and in the process give all agencies a bad reputation.   Unfortunately, it seems the scam agencies are thriving and the more legitimate ones are suffering. 

Guys just have such an easy time falling into scams.  The hardest thing for guys in the "process" or in the "game" to learn is when to spend money and how much to spend.  If a girl is demanding you buy her something - next!  If a girl is asking for money for a relative, school etc. - next.  If you take a girl on a date and she is insisting on you taking her to a high priced place - next!  New guys out there - remember to scout around the neighborhood if you like dining with girls.  Go to the inexpensive places.  If the girl is into you she will not care that you did not take her to one of the "in" places.  Get her to show interest in you.  Get her to have you meet her friends and relatives.  Get her to share her life with you.  Then you know she is real.   Then and only then open up the walet a little - but do not spoil her.  When you commit then things normalize ie. when she gets here the truth will come out and hopefully you'll have worked out how finances work in your household together.

[jb]

OK... The avitar is back.

Run for Congress????    I've got so many skeletons in the closet I couldn't get elected to "Dog Catcher".  I'd best just keep a low profile and stay out of politics.:D

[Michelangelo]

OK... The avitar is back.

Run for Congress????    I've got so many skeletons in the closet I couldn't get elected to "Dog Catcher".  I'd best just keep a low profile and stay out of politics.:D

Yep, you are too competent for a job in this administration

But when I'm elected, I'll name you my Scam Zar

[coco]

Yes jb to the congress and dawai bistra.

He knows the world,speak many languages,thats more then you can say from many of your politician.

[coco]

Denis Hastert ancestors are from Luxembourg.He is now in Luxembourg for the fourth time.

[Leslie]

Well I seem to have caused quite a furore !!

I will try to address some of the comments made.

Michael  my wife and her friends are (or were) involved in MOB.  One of my wifes friends owns an agency.  So I know about both sides of this enterprise.  About a year ago my wife made a comment -  

« There are so few decent guys involved in this process.  Nice guys are quickly taken »

I think this is spot on judgement. 80 - 90% only send e-mails. Richard(RVR) is right.  I have been shown some of the filth that these guys right.  If you sent e-mails like this to a British woman the police would break down your door at 5am and cart you away. 

Of the remaining 10 - 20%  Maybe one third are seriously demented.  The kind of guy who cannot even get a date at home.  These guys are not only american the worst examples I have encountered were British.  I am not calling French or Dutch guys weird Bruno. They are no more weird than Brits or Americans.  I have talked with Shadow on RWG chat on several occasions.  I wish him and his lady the best of luck. The only reason I pretend to be French or Dutch is simply not to talk with these nutters….. 

Another third of these guys are sex tourists or are dating really inappropriately.  Fifty year olds dating teenagers !  Just like the guys you meet in Thailand sampling the local « pootang »  As long as these guys stick with dating and f*cking whores and good time girls I have no problem with them.  Offering a young girl a better life just to get into her pants is another matter.  That is a really SICK trick[/b].[/size] 

OK - that leaves about 5% of the guys as decent marriage material. Just like my wife said.

I am not insulting anyone Michael.  I am merely describing MOB as it is.

Andrew, 

I cannot post stuff like this on RWG.  It will be deleted VERY quickly.  Telling the truth about MOB is bad for business ! My views won't sell any advertising.  These guys don't want to hear my advice - Spend lots of time (months !) in FSU. Learn the language. Try to understand the culture. Don't act like a tourist. Don't try to buy a women's affection (It's impossible anyway !) etc…  Most of these guys want a Mail Order Brdide 5' 6 tall, blonde, 50Kg, submissive, sexy and delivered next Thursday…. 

This is why I resigned from RWG.  I rarely even browse that site.  It is just chock full of MOB losers and the moderators ensure that no one tells these guys just who and what they are.  If you tell it like it is you will be banished. 

Bruce,

Your advice is excellent - as usual.  The agency scam you describe sounds a lot like Ashley Neal and his beauty contests RWLMAO !!! 

JB,


The avatar looks great.  You have always given great advice.  People might not like the way you say it but that is their problem.  Conner's bye line says it all !

 

 

 

 

[coco]

Leslie,

I remember your outstanding trip reports very well.I will newer forget the part with the Lada in the woods.The reason I come here is that on RWG there are no posters like you or jb left.If they ban Andrew that will be the end of my time there.

[Michelangelo]

Michael my wife and her friends are (or were) involved in MOB. One of my wifes friends owns an agency. So I know about both sides of this enterprise. About a year ago my wife made a comment -

«There are so few decent guys involved in this process. Nice guys are quickly taken»

Good, I want to be taken  Quickly

Seriously, thanks for your insights, Les.  You have seen both sides, so you know more than I do.  

But this also tells me that an agency is not a good place to find a girl, cuz they have to become jaded after a few letters like this and meeting some of the men you describe.

So, on my next trip I am going to vary the routine by depending on an old girlfriend (who likes me) to introduce me to her friends...

Wish me luck

[BC]

A wise man once told me "Need good advice?.. Ask someone that has nothing to loose and nothing to gain by giving it."

I also enjoyed the 'other' board for a good while but when those giving good advice were shown the door for their honest opin I followed.

No regrets whatsoever.

[jb]

Posted in the wrong section

[jb]

My political platform for Congress:  

1. Shut off all foreign aid for the next 5 years. We need to keep our money at home at least that long to repair Katrina damage.

2. Scrap the IRS. Go with a fair comsumption tax, (national sales tax).  We'll save billions in administration costs alone.  Running the IRS itself eats up way too much of the collected revenue

3. Demand from Mexico one barrel of free oil each month for each illegal Mexican residing in the USA.  That'd be about 20 million free barrels of oil each month.  We need the gas.

4. We've got lots of low sulphur coal in the USA, let's dig it~!  We seriously need to invent a new policy to ensure energy independence.

5. Burn at the stake all greenie tree huggers who have prevented the USA from building a new refinery for the past 37 years.... Or building a new nuclear power plant in those areas which are not disaster prone, and, not drilling for new reserves in the ANWR.  I figure the heat from that fire would fuel Los Angles for at least a month until the Mexican oil started arriving.

6. Completely revamp the immigration policy, ease up on restrictions on FSU single ladies, and tighten up visas for single middle eastern males between the ages of 18 -35.  I figure if they aren't here they won't be able to do a repeat of 9-11-01.  Whoever said racial profiling doesn't work was a liar.

7. Shut down all military bases in foreign countries who vote against the USA on matters of national interest.  That applies especially to Germany and So. Korea.  We can keep those huge payrolls within our own economy.

What did I miss that would get your vote?

[ConnerVT]

But this also tells me that an agency is not a good place to find a girl, cuz they have to become jaded after a few letters like this and meeting some of the men you describe.

Not completely true.  Some math now about the ladies:

It has been said many times that 10% of the women get 90% of the letters.  Now add that 80 to 90% of the guys who write never make a trip.  The result is that many women never even meet a man through an agency, even if they were fortunate enough to receive a letter or two.

If a man sets his sights correctly, and doesn't pursue an Aphrodite type vision of loveliness, chances are he will meet a woman who's sincere and not jaded.  When I was dating in Russia, I met with a few 'professional' daters (once).  But I also met with several women whom I was the first Western man they had met, no less dated.  These were nice women, whom I hope have found their happiness.

So as scary (and also based in truth) as Andrew's posts have been, it's only showing one side of the coin.  It's each of our responsibilities to use our big head and objectively search, evaluate, and chose the women we wish to court.  Setting one's goals realistically is a start.  Remembering that if something doesn't seem right, it probably isn't, is good also.

[Photo Guy]

I met Larisa through a big evil agency. I wrote to her first. I met her in Kyiv. She had never met a foreign man before. She knew nothing about visas and wanted to know why I was interested in a woman in Ukraine. When she told me about the cost of her train fare, she was very reluctant to tell me. When we met in Kyiv, with our interpreter, we  did travel by taxi, but dined in relatively inexpensive restaurants. The interpreter/guide, Natalie, did a great job of avoiding unnecessary expenses for us. Larisa seems to be willing to accept money and gifts from me, but never asks for them. I avoid spending more than I need to. When Larisa returned to Mariupol from her big meeting with me, her caring parents were there at the station to welcome her home.

Am I weird?  Uh, sure -use whatever label you like. I don't care. I grew up with a generation that liked 'weird', including bands like Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa, The Doors and the Grateful Dead.  
...Guys who are obsessed with 'normal' are insecure.  Doug

[Michelangelo]

FINALLY, I'm getting some support here and we guys are defending ourselves

[andrewfi]

Conner, I agree, I am, when talking about the active seekers, talking of only one side of the coin, but sadly that is exactly what almost all the guys who get a visa are looking for.

That is why pareto applies.

Does it make a difference writing to a less pretty photo, in respect of the amount of attention? Perhaps, but in all other respects, much the same, except the motivation to capitalise upon the rare opportunity for the woman to attain her goals. At least with the ones getting the most attention, you can know that if they choose to be with you, it is because they want to be (for whatever reason). For the others, it may well be because, in her eyes at least, she has to be (and love probably ain't in the picture!).

Basically, one swaps one obvious  set of risks for a different set, one that might be less obvious and for the guys who can not divine the risks in writing to 'pareto girls' what chance is there in writing to the ones who are in the majority, the shelf girls.

I would guess that if a guy is well sorted, financially, temperamentally and physically (last least important!) then he has a greater chance of finding something close to mutual 'love' with a pareto girl, than he does with a shelf girl. But at least shelf girls might be more likely to stick with their man through thick and thin, having, perhaps less opportunity to upgrade their lot in the US. --But do we really want that?

The majority who are not sorted in these respects? I would honestly say stay at home.

[jb]

Pareto was not a figure of history that garnered a lot of attention, or respect, when I was in school, so your parallel was pretty much wasted on me, but I assume you refer to his social theories rather than his economics. [Vilfredo Pareto: Italian sociologist and economist whose theories influenced the development of fascism in Italy (1848-1923)]

Please explain farther your theory of "pareto girls" as applied to "scammer girls".  You see,,, in my view, a scammer is little more than a con artist and a low order criminal.  I tend to adhere to the KISS principal.  If something seems too good to be true, it usually is.

Edit:  This thread has taken a turn that I didn't anticipate, that which says; "scammers are monsters of our own creation".  This kind of thinking is just plain wrong IMHO.  This is the same line of liberal thought that turns common criminals into social victims.  As if to say; if only the welfare checks were larger there would be no need for the thief to steal.  I can't justify this in my world and I think anyone who believes a thief, that's exactly what a scammer is, is a victim, is smoking something other than corn flakes for breakfast.  

[Bruce]

Scammers are lowlife criminals no doubt.   I liken them more to vermin like insects or rats.   If the kitchen is completely devoid of a food source you probably would not see them.  Likewise, if guys give them nothing to chew on they will have to feed on another source.  As long as the prey (men with money and opportunity) is in ready easy supply the scammers will stick to them.  When a new better market exists for these criminals they will concentrate their efforts there.  

JB, though I view alot of your positions as radical (I would force us to develop alternative energy and save the environment) I would vote for you because I believe:  A.  I could trust you to make a level headed rational decision; B.  You never agree with all the political views of any politician; C.  You are right on immigration and negotiable on security (I would not let them in until 50 and thats including good reason); D.  I do not believe you are corruptible;  E.  All the politicians already have skeletons in the closets (Clinton with womanizing, George W. with substance abuse etc.); F.  Michael is in your home state and may be willing to be your campaign manager.