Wife runs off with child to Brazil

[roykirk]

I was just watching this story on NBC's the "Today" show a few minutes ago.  It really got my blood boiling and also raised a lot of questions because I just didn't understand it.

A man named David Goldman married a Brazilian woman several years ago in the U.S.  They had a child born here, who was obviously an American citizen.  Four years ago, he drove both to the airport, ostensibly for a trip home to Brazil to see her family.  It was the last time he's seen either of them.  She then obtained a divorce in Brazil and then remarried a Brazilian man.  His wife then died during delivery of a second child, and now her Brazilian husband wants to adopt his child.

Bowman said he's been trying to get the U.S. government to step in to help in this bizarre situation, but they haven't been able to offer him much guidance.  He said he just can't understand how this is being allowed to happen since so many international laws were broken when his wife kidnapped his child.  He's especially worried that this Brazilian man may be allowed to adopt his child. 

This story just left me seething.  This obviously has implications for those of us married to a FSU woman, or planning on getting married to one.  Here's a link to the story:  http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26867370/

[topofthekey]

you got a good looking, well spoken, educated guy that got completed screwed. From what he said the family (the guy) in brazil has a lot of influence. Because of that remark I think the real fathers appearance on the Today show will shine the needed light on this to squash those breaking the law like bugs.

I'll be rooting for this guy. Keep us updated!

[groovlstk]

Where's the idjit from a few months back who came here boasting about how Latin women were infinitely more faithful than RW and how we were all so foolish? 

[kievstar]

I lived in Sao Paulo Brazil for a year.  This is very easy.  For about $25,000 (including travel costs) he can take his child (use actual police officers) go over the border to Argentina USA embassy or straight to airport and fly home legally.  Probably can fly home from Sao Paulo airport if he wanted.  Police in Brazil are very corrupt. 

USA government should not waste there time on this case.  If he wants his child, he should go to Brazil and take matters into his own hands or go through Brazil legal system.  I know the Brazil legal system.  It will be very difficult for him and expensive.

[Shadow]

Lets look at this from another angle.
The child was as much Brazilian as it was U.S. citizen. 
For four years the child has not been in the U.S. and has not seen the father, who will probably be like a complete stranger to him.

If the woman had been American, in a divorce the child would have been appointed to her, and if she had been remarried the stepfather would probably get custody of the child when she died, supposing the marriage was good and the child saw him as the prime caretaker.

Just because she was living in Brazil and remarried there, does not make such thing suddenly invalid.
Would it be beneficial for the child to be taken away from its family and place in a strange environment with its biological father ?
If his wife got a divorce in Brazil, we do not know the reasons. Just because he looks good on TV, does not make him a saint.

Playing devil's advocate here, but I believe the fundamental rights are with the wishes of the child and its well-being.

[roykirk]

Lets look at this from another angle.
The child was as much Brazilian as it was U.S. citizen. 
For four years the child has not been in the U.S. and has not seen the father, who will probably be like a complete stranger to him.

If the woman had been American, in a divorce the child would have been appointed to her, and if she had been remarried the stepfather would probably get custody of the child when she died, supposing the marriage was good and the child saw him as the prime caretaker.

Just because she was living in Brazil and remarried there, does not make such thing suddenly invalid.
Would it be beneficial for the child to be taken away from its family and place in a strange environment with its biological father ?
If his wife got a divorce in Brazil, we do not know the reasons. Just because he looks good on TV, does not make him a saint.

Playing devil's advocate here, but I believe the fundamental rights are with the wishes of the child and its well-being.

Sorry, I can't buy in to that line of reasoning.  Let's suppose a man kidnaps an American infant who is a complete stranger.  They flee to Brazil.  8 years later, police find the man and and the now 8 y/o child, living a seemingly normal and happy life.  The 8 y/o thinks of the man as his father, in fact he's known no other father and doesn't even remember life in the United States.  Using your devil's advocate logic, this man should be left alone to live his life raising this child, simply because he managed to hoodwink authorities for long enough.  If the child was asked, I'm sure he'd want to stay with the man.  That still doesn't make it right, and it still doesn't address the fact that international laws were egregiously broken.  In my world, the man gets thrown in jail and the child gets shipped home to his rightful parents.  The child will have to adjust.  It's a form of Stockholm's Syndrome to me.  It's no different than a parent raising a child to think that molestation is normal. 

[kievstar]

I guess I was raised to take action into my own hands.  You have a decent point.  Many views for any situation.  But when it comes to family I do not trust politicians.   

[Shadow]

Sorry, I can't buy in to that line of reasoning.  Let's suppose a man kidnaps an American infant who is a complete stranger.  They flee to Brazil.  8 years later, police find the man and and the now 8 y/o child, living a seemingly normal and happy life.  The 8 y/o thinks of the man as his father, in fact he's known no other father and doesn't even remember life in the United States.  Using your devil's advocate logic, this man should be left alone to live his life raising this child, simply because he managed to hoodwink authorities for long enough.  If the child was asked, I'm sure he'd want to stay with the man.  That still doesn't make it right, and it still doesn't address the fact that international laws were egregiously broken.  In my world, the man gets thrown in jail and the child gets shipped home to his rightful parents.  The child will have to adjust.  It's a form of Stockholm's Syndrome to me.  It's no different than a parent raising a child to think that molestation is normal. 

The child was not kidnapped, that is a very crucial difference in this case.
As I have not sen the show I do not know if the father started to care only after his ex-wife died, if he has tried to get permission to see his child during the four years, if the mother has wilfully obstructed his rights other than divorcing him, if he has continued to support his child during that time.
All of these would be important factors to make a judgement on the current situation.

[roykirk]

The child was not kidnapped, that is a very crucial difference in this case.
As I have not sen the show I do not know if the father started to care only after his ex-wife died, if he has tried to get permission to see his child during the four years, if the mother has wilfully obstructed his rights other than divorcing him, if he has continued to support his child during that time.
All of these would be important factors to make a judgement on the current situation.

I guess it depends on the legal definition of kidnapping.  Maybe William can weigh in on this.  To me, what happened in this story is no different than my example.  The mother willfully took an American citizen to another country with the intent of keeping him there and thereby denying the father his parental rights.  When this happens in the United States, I think they call it custodial kidnapping, but they still call it kidnapping when police put out the posters.  The link I posted pretty much gives the complete story that was on the show.  According to the father, the mother contacted him shortly after arriving in Brazil and told him he'd never see his son again if he didn't sign over parental rights. 

But in general, I would go the route you suggest, but I'd go a step further.  I'd pay the money to not only have my son brought to me for a flight back home, but I'd have the ex's husband wacked to make sure he wouldn't be a problem in the future.  Yes, a bit extreme, but if this was my own kid who had been taken from me, I wouldn't hesitate for a second.

[BC]

http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/country/country_3056.html

[Shadow]

I guess it depends on the legal definition of kidnapping.  Maybe William can weigh in on this.  To me, what happened in this story is no different than my example.  The mother willfully took an American citizen to another country with the intent of keeping him there and thereby denying the father his parental rights.  When this happens in the United States, I think they call it custodial kidnapping, but they still call it kidnapping when police put out the posters.  The link I posted pretty much gives the complete story that was on the show.  According to the father, the mother contacted him shortly after arriving in Brazil and told him he'd never see his son again if he didn't sign over parental rights. 

But in general, I would go the route you suggest, but I'd go a step further.  I'd pay the money to not only have my son brought to me for a flight back home, but I'd have the ex's husband wacked to make sure he wouldn't be a problem in the future.  Yes, a bit extreme, but if this was my own kid who had been taken from me, I wouldn't hesitate for a second.

If he is American citizen or not does not matter. The mother took her child, and has not followed up on legal procedures.
As such I agree with you that counter measures should be equally strong.

[BC]

I guess it depends on the legal definition of kidnapping.  Maybe William can weigh in on this.  To me, what happened in this story is no different than my example.  The mother willfully took an American citizen to another country with the intent of keeping him there and thereby denying the father his parental rights.  When this happens in the United States, I think they call it custodial kidnapping, but they still call it kidnapping when police put out the posters.  The link I posted pretty much gives the complete story that was on the show.  According to the father, the mother contacted him shortly after arriving in Brazil and told him he'd never see his son again if he didn't sign over parental rights. 

But in general, I would go the route you suggest, but I'd go a step further.  I'd pay the money to not only have my son brought to me for a flight back home, but I'd have the ex's husband wacked to make sure he wouldn't be a problem in the future.  Yes, a bit extreme, but if this was my own kid who had been taken from me, I wouldn't hesitate for a second.

Here there is a child that recognizes a father, whether biological or not.  As long as the child is well cared for (and that seems to be the case) at this point interfering would probably do the child more harm than good.  All the bravado in the world will not change that.

Goldman went to court in New Jersey, where Sean was born, and obtained a court order calling for a custody hearing in that state and granting custody of Sean to Goldman pending the hearing. According to the laws of Brazil and the United States, as well as international law as spelled out in the Hague Treaties, to which Brazil is a signatory, Sean should have been returned home for the hearing. But Brazilian courts waited a year to respond to the New Jersey court, and then ruled that since so much time had passed, the child should stay with his mother.

With a young child and circumstances as described, the Brazilian court probably ruled correctly.  Other countries that also adhere to the Hague Conventions have ruled similarly.

I have had personal experience with a child abduction case (child abducted by the biological father to the US, subsequently returned to Europe after a decision by US courts), and know that it is a very tough experience for both parents which will ultimately be tragic for one..  After all, would any parent agree with King Solomon's solution?

With this case it is probably best that the biological father does whatever possible, within the legal system, but also accepts the results thereof.  I wonder about the circumstances that led up to the demise of their relationship.

Brazil is a signatory of the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Parental Abduction.  Russia has not, and I believe Ukraine only recently.  Just something to keep in mind.

In any case a sad story..

[wxman]

Here's another sad story. However, in this case, a French man took his 2 year old and Russian authorities are looking for him.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/1010/42/371155.htm

[BillyB]

Before my divorce trial, I the ex-wife and others go through a number of hearings where we're all in the same room. A Native American Indian who does not live on an Indian reservation told the judge that his wife went to another State onto an Indian reservation and took their child and he hasn't seen his child in months and would like the court to force his wife back to Washington State. According to State law, parents can't move out of the State without the other parents consent. The judge didn't know exactly how to force the guy's ex-wife since the State's law doesn't apply to Indian reservations.  I sensed extreme sadness in the Indian man's voice to the point he almost cried. It's a shame parents can hurt each other by using the children. It ends up hurting the children too.

[William3rd]

According to our latest refresher course, the latin American Countries are the absolute worst in enforcing Hague Convention issues, and add Germany to that list since the local courts seldom follow the rules.

I had a couple of clients years back that had RW that stole the biological children of the parties and returned home only to try to come back later with another fiance. Got the kids back though. . . .

[BC]

According to our latest refresher course, the latin American Countries are the absolute worst in enforcing Hague Convention issues, and add Germany to that list since the local courts seldom follow the rules.

The German courts will likely weigh the effects of (again) disrupting the child's life quite heavily, as the Brazilian court did.

[roykirk]

So, it doesn't matter how many international laws were broken, as long as the child's equilibrium isn't disturbed?     Again, I don't see how this is different from my example of a man who kidnaps an infant and takes him to another country to raise him as his own.  In both cases, the parental rights of a biological parent were violated.  If I was the father, I just can't fathom being told, "Sorry, we know your child was abducted, but we just don't want to disturb them." 

[William3rd]

Its all pretext. . . . if there is an existing court order, then there is an expectation that the order would be followed. But if there are no court orders, then anything goes. Any result to the contrary is just BS to keep the kid.

[BC]

Its all pretext. . . . if there is an existing court order, then there is an expectation that the order would be followed. But if there are no court orders, then anything goes. Any result to the contrary is just BS to keep the kid.

I wonder why it took two months after he knew her intent to get a court order. In the case I am familiar with even immediate intervention of Interpol and a court order while the airplane was still in the air, US officials stopped the traveling party but allowed entry since a valid passport was presented (acquired without the consent of the other parent - at that time still possible).  It later had to be settled in US courts, but only after a long effort to find them.

It's pretty much up to the courts in the country where the child is to decide what happens and when.. -

Here's an interesting case RW related:

http://familylawinternational.blogspot.com/2008/09/russia-lawful-child-kidnapping.html

What struck me a bit in the Brazilian case is that there seemed to be a lot of animosity between the US parent and his wife and her family.  I wonder what really happened.  Surely she didn't bump her head getting out of the airplane and change her mind about returning..  The relationship was obviously sour - the primary aspect in all such cases, sadly with the kids often used as pawns.

http://familylawinternational.blogspot.com/2007/09/germanys-pattern-of-noncompliance-with.html is also interesting.. father not paying support or visiting the child often.. - and later files to have the child returned from Germany..  I wonder what happened after that..

[ca71447]

... I guess my question would be - what was their married relationship like, how long had they been married, and what situations/conditions led up to the wife deciding to take the child and leave.

[roykirk]

... I guess my question would be - what was their married relationship like, how long had they been married, and what situations/conditions led up to the wife deciding to take the child and leave.

With the exception of some sort of proven abuse, that question should be immaterial to the case.  I would assume there was no abuse alleged or proven, otherwise the Brazilian government (as well as the media writing this story) would trumpet that fact/accusation immediately when discussing this case.  So, going with my opinion that there was likely no allegations of abuse, the rest becomes moot.  I don't care if they were married 6 months before the baby was born, or 10 years.  I don't care if they had a fairytale marriage or if they fought like cats and dogs.  In the end, the legal parental rights of the husband were violated and international laws were broken.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or attack anyone personally, but I'm just struggling to understand how anyone can have a viewpoint that supports the mother's actions or that this child should now be allowed to stay in Brazil with his stepfather.  This is why I would have been a poor law school student.  Cases like this would have just made me get up and storm out in a rage having lost all faith in the legal system.   

[ca71447]

... don't worry ... I am not supporting the wife's position in any way, shape, or form.  What it sounds like is a very calculated move on her part.  My speculation would be that she had already made contact with and established a relationship with someone in Brazil.  I do not think her move was a sudden decision ... she had it all planned out before hand ....

[William3rd]

Here is a rule- carve it in stone and do not deviate. If you deviate, you are truly an idiot

If you plan on divorce, file the papers and get them served on the other party, then negotiate  your settlement. Dont be a malt shop moron, and sit down to "discuss" the matter before acting.

In most cases, it is abundantly clear where the marriage is headed long before the actual termination begins.

[diverboy70]

I can feel the pain of this guy! i have a 3 year old boy myslef, and I would personally go down and get him myelf, if it was me!

[William3rd]

I went through some of this crap 10 years ago. As a sole custodial parent for ten years with a 4 ft tall court file, you dont want it to get that far. Once the case is back in her country, you are in for years of misery. Very hard to pick the kid up in a foreign country-or to spirit the child back to the US.