Was the Holodomor Genocide?

[OlgaH]

Sorry Olga, I don't really understand the point you are trying to make.

Misha
To understand my point, please read the articles that Dan and Sculpto posted. I could not find any expressions as you used "is whether the Soviet Union specifically set out to murder"  or something similar as "the genocide was the requisitioning system employed by Soviet Union". It is also about "the loose expressions" as professor Kulchynsky has said.

[Misha]

Misha
To understand my point, please read the articles that Dan and Sculpto posted. I could not find any expressions as you used "is whether the Soviet Union specifically set out to murder"  or something similar as "the genocide was the requisitioning system employed by Soviet Union". It is also about "the loose expressions" as professor Kulchynsky has said.

Well, I did not say the "people of the Soviet Union" or the "peoples that made up the Soviet Union" and throughout my posting I keep referring to the Soviet Union and the Soviet state, which should make it clear that I am referring to a political structure that was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

[Gtex]

Wiki entries are often so "balanced" they obscure rather than illuminate.   This is a problem of "open source" resources.   Actions of a government represent and result in the "collective guilt" of the citizens by the very nature of complicity in action of the populace, all the way to passive acceptance (which is tacit approval).  This is how we arrive at the collective guilt of the German population for the actions of the  Nazi regime.

One of the best overviews (IMHO) of the Holodomor is available at:
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/Ukraine_famine.htm

My opinion, state sponsored genocide; although those hair splitting and legally parsed defenses can still be made, they are specious at best and spurious most often.    

[OlgaH]

Well, I did not say the "people of the Soviet Union" or the "peoples that made up the Soviet Union" and throughout my posting I keep referring to the Soviet Union and the Soviet state, which should make it clear that I am referring to a political structure that was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

thanks for the clarification... finally   

Probably it would be better to be more  cautious with the term using as the authors of the posted articles were intelligently cautious and did not use the term "Soviet Union" referring it to Soviet leadership. 

[BC]

Wiki entries are often so "balanced" they obscure rather than illuminate.   This is a problem of "open source" resources.   Actions of a government represent and result in the "collective guilt" of the citizens by the very nature of complicity in action of the populace, all the way to passive acceptance (which is tacit approval).  This is how we arrive at the collective guilt of the German population for the actions of the  Nazi regime.

One of the best overviews (IMHO) of the Holodomor is available at:
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/Ukraine_famine.htm

My opinion, state sponsored genocide; although those hair splitting and legally parsed defenses can still be made, they are specious at best and spurious most often.    

I tend to disregard any site that starts off with a conclusion.. the link you posted is one such site.

The good thing about wiki is that you are free to contribute factual information or interact with the authors of the wiki.  Have you done so?

[ScottinCrimea]

BC, Here's the link to an article written by an author that Olga cited that in my opinion is quite scholarly and objective in its aproach:

http://www.day.kiev.ua/250821/

I can see why Olga took exception to the comments regarding the Soviet Union.  In the minds of those of the FSU there is a more distinct separation between the Soviet Union as a government and the Soviet Union as a people.  This makes sense as the common people had little or no influence on actions of the government and would not feel it fair to be indicted along with their leaders for policies that they really had no control over.

It is much easier to blame all Americans for the acts of the government as they have more control over who the elect and have some mechanisms to influence policy.  Still, I think many would take offense, justified or not, if they were personally blamed for the situation in Iraq, the banking fiasco, etc.

[BC]

BC, Here's the link to an article written by an author that Olga cited that in my opinion is quite scholarly and objective in its aproach:

http://www.day.kiev.ua/250821/

Scott,

Thanks, will read and digest..

[Sculpto]

A citizen of the Soviet Union is/was no more responsible for genocide in Ukraine than was an average Americna citizen repsonsible for the genocide of the native Americans.

The responsible parties are/were the leaders of governmental and military organizations that make and implement decisions and orders.

Every solider has the right and responsibility to disobey an immoral order.  Leaders who exploit the patriotism of thier citizens to contribute to the illegal acts of genocide and massacre are called tyrannical despots for a reason.

What I sense is some of the Russians in our little web community feel they are under attack, in this thread, for what Stalin did.  I would say to those who feel they are being attacked that is not the case.  Persons such as myself hold absolutely no negative feelings towards a Russian former Soviet. 

However, as you may be aware, the Ukrainians and many in the Blatic states as well as the former "Iron Curtain" nations hold a lot of resentment towards Russians.  And to that feeling, Sculpto once again has a story to tell. 

20+ years ago I made my first trip to Europe after graduating from Art School.  At the time I still had some remnants of the Jewish identity I grew up with and one of my major goals on the trip was to visit some concentration camps in Germany to pay respects to the victims of Hitler.  On one day I visited Dachau and on the day after I visited Hitler's Eagles Nest.  At Dachau there were only Americans and Israelis and plenty of historical documentation.  At the Eagles nest there were tons of Germans enjoying ice cream and the amazing view atop the Bavarian Alps, yet, there could not be found even one historical marker or notice that might educate even the smallest amount of the horrific history which took place there.  Just Ice Cream.  I left Germany confused. 

Weeks later I was on a train from Madrid to Barcelona.  On that ride I met a young German doctor.  Now, for a Jew there is nothing more horrid than a German doctor, and, after the confusion and disillusionment of Germany I wanted nothing more than to get as far away as possible from the young "Mengele" I imagined this doctor to be.  However, the more I tried to escape the doctor the more he would not let me go.  He followed me around for three days in Barcelona.  No matter how much I tried I could not get rid of him.  Then, on the third night, something odd happened.  We were walking back to the Hostel from the Plaza Real and found a bunch of drug addicts huddled in the corner.  I had noticed my "Mengele" always had a medical bag with him and when he saw these miserable homeless heroin addicts he immediately approached them and began doctoring.  I was very suprised and afterwards I asked him about it.

I can not quote his words exactly after so many years.. but, what he told me was this.  Because of WW2 the reputation of German doctors in the world was destroyed.  But, in the modern medical system of Germany there is great emphasis placed on education in human rights and the responsibility of modern German doctors to not only be above suspician but to do everything to set the highest example in all the world in regards to the value of human life.  For this reason he had dedicated his early career to travelling around Spain, where Germany had committed many atrocities in support of Franco, and to administer medical help for free to those who needed it the most, such as junkies and homeless people.  My "Mengele" turned out to be Mother Theresa and his generosity, honesty and dignity changed me forever.

So, I think no one here is trying to blame the average Russian for the doings of Stalin and his evil collaborators.  But, I think there are moments when I personally wish I could find my German doctor in the ideas and values expressed by some Russians.

And, just to lighten things up a bit.. I just worked with a very nice couple from St. Petersburg.  The bought some granite and told me I must take the overnight train and see St. Petersburg. 

[BC]

Sculpto,

Having lived in Germany for 18 years or so, I must say that their past haunts them to this day.  Every week (and I still watch German TV almost daily),  at least one or two documentaries shown.  Of nations that have committed such horrible acts, they have done the most to openly accept and take many efforts to ensure the past is not forgotten.

[ScottinCrimea]

However, as you may be aware, the Ukrainians and many in the Blatic states as well as the former "Iron Curtain" nations hold a lot of resentment towards Russians.  And to that feeling, Sculpto once again has a story to tell. 

While I commend you for an excellent post, you generalize way too much in this sentence.  I lived in Ukraine and didn't feel a general sense of resentment toward the Russians among the populace, though there were individuals who had such feelings.

[OlgaH]

Any country, any nation should have its Memorable Days about horrible events in its history and  the whole World should know about these events to never repeat it again. But all these Memorable Days should never be used for the instigation of interethnic and international hostility. Unfortunately the some politicians with their own selfish ends try to use  such historical facts for the instigation of hostility . Therefor we should be very cautious using these terms and expressions.

Such expressions as "if you support Russians you support KGB" don't hurt me personally but such expressions can easily affect the immature minds.

If we are talking about the famine in Ukraine as genocide the first question is what's the main goal of the current Ukraine government.  I hope it is a good goal... But why Yuschenko talking about genocide tries to distort some facts artificially increasing number of victims for example. Looking through the articles about the Ukraine famine I found a conference where some Ukrainian politicians determine how many people of Jewish, Russian, Ukranian and of other nations were at that time at the ruling position and responsible for the tragedy, and also how many Ukrainians, Moldavians, Kazakhs, Russians became the victims of Stalin's repressions... What is their purpose  in comparing the  numbers of victims and predators on the basis of nationality ?

In 2007 Roman Shukhevich, who lead the Nachtigall Battalion during the Operation Barbarossa, was awarded by Yuschenko with the title "Hero of Ukraine"...  And what about the veterans who fought against Nazis?... and about victims of Nazis? What they feel and how they feel?

Not so long time ago Yuschenko offered to separate Russian and Ukranian Orthodox Churches. The wise Ukranian Orthodox Church gave its answer that the Church will not let politicians destroy the good Orthodox relationship that exist for centuries between two Churches. I also hope it will never happen and the unit of the Russian and Ukranian Churches will consolidate the unity of two nations and I also hope that the recognition of the Ukranian  famine as a genocide that was committed by Stalin's regime will never be turned by any politicians into disparate international hostility.

If somebody quoting me replying on my concerns above wants again to start to point out  the shortcomings of Russian government, I would like to tell that I know about the shortcomings of Russian Government. I just also want to hope that the Russian and Ukranian Governments will not make any harsh decisions, conclusions, accusations using the history as a "weapon"  and they finally will come to the mutual understanding that will lead to the strong friendship.   

   

[Sculpto]

Olga,
Very well written, thank you. 

Scott.. My comment may have been generalized to a degree, however, I did follow very closely the removal of Russian war monuments in the Baltics and the Russian reaction to those events.  In the case of Ukraine I am quite sure the feelings towards Russia depend very much on the particular locality.  Ukraine is a big country with diverse ethnicities and opinions and therefore can not be generalized.  My comment should have been qualified to the part of the population that speaks Ukrainian as its first and prefered language which is trying to create a new national identity from the ashes of Holomodor and the decades of Soviet rule that followed.  To a degree this is probably a rather small but vocal percentage of the population.

A lesson that I learned during my period of activism in Mexico is that it is not the guilty party or the outsider that gets to define the language and feelings that define a peoples view and perspective about its opressors and the new identity which such a ethnicity wishes to create for itself.  That important job can only be done by those who have experienced the deprivations and loss and somehow managed to survive and regain self respect.  It is called Self Determination. 

[Misha]

Any country, any nation should have its Memorable Days about horrible events in its history and  the whole World should know about these events to never repeat it again.

I agree with you. However, it is also important that past misdeeds be acknowledged. I am not convinced this is the case with Russia. How did Putin put it, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the state, was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century. Also, the new Russian history textbooks that will be used in Russian schools are also rehabilitating the Soviet past, and I am sure that they will gloss over the 1930s and the famine.

[OlgaH]

Also, the new Russian history textbooks that will be used in Russian schools are also rehabilitating the Soviet past, and I am sure that they will gloss over the 1930s and the famine.

The new history textbook by Alexander Phillipov aroused heated disputes and received the sharp criticism by Mass Media, even the history textbooks of 1960s were more honest about Stalin's time. The disturbing fact is the Minister of Education defends the Phillipov's history book. I understand the patriotic education is also an important part in the youth upbringing.  Question is "how to educate patriotically?"

In 1841 the famous Russian poet Yuri Lermontov wrote (a literary translation)  "Goodbye, unwashed Russia, the land of slaves, the land of lords, And you, Blue Uniforms and you, obedient to them (to Blue Uniforms) people, goodbye..." Can we say that Lermontov was not a patriot of Russia? I don't think so. He wrote that words with a heavy heart. His true words were his anguish for Russia.

There were greatest achievements in the country during the Stalin's time but the price was tragic and horrible, to hide and gloss that price is equal to lie. The youth will grow and know the truth... Such textbooks that hide truth or tell just half of it are the Government's biggest mistake that sooner or later will be turned against the Government or lead to the repeating the same mistakes in the history.

The same story with the history textbooks in Ukraine and other countries of FSU.

Will the Governments forget about the political games and  start to think with head? 

I hope the teachers will help...

[Gtex]

BC:
Yes, to interaction with Wiki and no to such on this subject.  The "open source" allows people with an agenda to make their case but not with any required objectivity.  Still, even people with an agenda are sometimes correct.

Too bad the upront conclusion put you off.   Often people start with the conclusion and then begin the defense.  Actually, it is standard training in journalism schools for some types of reporting and appears appropriate here.  In the sense that it makes clear the intent of the writer, it is perhaps the most truthful (and therefore) least time wasting approach.   If your mind is closed on the subject (as it is on the style) you need go no further.

Seems to have stopped you reviewing and learning (or not) from their effort.  Again, I thought the article generally good and balanced.  Set aside your bias, which in this case is stylistic and consider the substance. 

[BC]

BC:
Yes, to interaction with Wiki and no to such on this subject.  The "open source" allows people with an agenda to make their case but not with any required objectivity.  Still, even people with an agenda are sometimes correct.

Too bad the upront conclusion put you off.   Often people start with the conclusion and then begin the defense.  Actually, it is standard training in journalism schools for some types of reporting and appears appropriate here.  In the sense that it makes clear the intent of the writer, it is perhaps the most truthful (and therefore) least time wasting approach.   If your mind is closed on the subject (as it is on the style) you need go no further.

Seems to have stopped you reviewing and learning (or not) from their effort.  Again, I thought the article generally good and balanced.  Set aside your bias, which in this case is stylistic and consider the substance. 

I must also admit that I am not impressed with journalism these days.

Do feel free to contribute or criticize the wiki.. for months now it has asked for input http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor

The discussion involves folks that are much more knowledgeable than I am and their research is quite extensive.  Discussion is ongoing.

I'm a 'gimme the facts and I'll draw my own conclusion' type guy.. this includes wiki or any other source.  Platforms that want to interpret or draw conclusions for me have little chance.

[Diplomacy]

This is a good read, and gives a lot of fact and also tells when speculation is needed.  They even tell where the 10 million figure may have come from and is in fact probably not true. 

http://www.search.com/reference/Holodomor

As for any of our Russian friends on the board.  I always like the other side of the story as you know it.  Please, even Stalin's comrades where scared to death of the man.  I think it is fair to say it is very hard to judge a person in fear of their life and people protecting their family. 

Yes, there were monsters who got enjoyment out of such torture. The majority of the people that implemented this famine were also in fear of their lives if they were not carrying out orders.

It is well documented that Stalin did not allow any foreign media into the region, and even is alleged to start a well orchestrated trial with some British patriots to deflect from the famine.  Any member of the media that tried to report the famine would be not allowed to cover this story.

As for a slanted view of the facts, it is also based on a trail that has been very well covered by Stalin.  Reasons sited such as drought conditions are false.  1936 were far worse and produced greater yield.  The amount of horses and the effect of improper care of the horses must also be brought into the fold. They were not cared for and then the labor was shifted to people once they perished.  I am sure more than a couple had to have been eaten also.

Where did the seed for planting come from the following year, if the harvest was collected?  I wonder to if that had an effect, but I do not see it being discussed.  Did Stalin take all seed for next years planting?

The way I see it, the area was encircled and supply cut off in a manner similar to siege warfare, and the people starved into submission.

While “summoned “ by November 10-17 1929 meeting of VKP(b) Central Committee “Twenty-Five Thousanders" only trained at special short courses, main “drive-force” of collectivization and “dekulakization” in Ukraine became a “poor peasants committee” (“komnezamy”) and local village councils “silrady” were komnezams members had a voting majority.

The above tells me it was in fact a planned and orchestrated event. 

To cite facts as individual statistics is a dangerous way to form consensus.  Look at factors that can influence that statistic.  Then look at other years as a barometer of the validity of that opinion.

Look at all of the events and not specific events.  Look at the future and history to prove or disprove anything. 

[JR]

Genocide or not? Hmmm, for me it would have to pass this test: would the history have been different if the people of Ukraine had gone along with the Soviet system? Were they persecuted and starved because of their race, religion, status or some other tangible or intangible item you could point at and say "they are different, they must die" or was it due strictly to the fact that they resisted?
I think from the evidence presented thus far the latter is was what happened. Of course hashing out a reason does not lessen the severity of the tragedy

[Sculpto]

Genocide or not? Hmmm, for me it would have to pass this test: would the history have been different if the people of Ukraine had gone along with the Soviet system? Were they persecuted and starved because of their race, religion, status or some other tangible or intangible item you could point at and say "they are different, they must die" or was it due strictly to the fact that they resisted?
I think from the evidence presented thus far the latter is was what happened. Of course hashing out a reason does not lessen the severity of the tragedy

"A" and I had a long conversation about this topic.  She pointed out that the forced collectivization also affected millions of Russian peasants.  So, perhaps singling out Ukraine for genocide is not accurate.. the genocide was committed against peasants, Russian and Ukrainian. 

Also, Jolly.. your definition making the distinction between those who resist and those who do not is flawed.  Mass murder against any ethnicity or socio economic group is genocide regardless of resistence.  For example, in Darfur the whole world is calling it genocide, yet, the victims support armed and violent rebel groups which are resisting the government and trying to protect the ethnic Africans in a Muslim country.  So, by your definition they are resisting and thus it is not genocide.  See the flaw?

[Ronnie]

"A" and I had a long conversation about this topic.  She pointed out that the forced collectivization also affected millions of Russian peasants.  So, perhaps singling out Ukraine for genocide is not accurate.. the genocide was committed against peasants, Russian and Ukrainian. 

Not sure how long the conversation would have been.  It doesn't take very long to parrot the official Russian position, the red herring that it so obviously is.

This stuff coming from Putin - that Stalin was justified in his hard line tactics - is simply setting up the country for a new Stalinist regime with VVP as it's supreme leader.

[Sculpto]

Ronnie I personally believe it was a genocide perpetrated specifically against what the new "Czars" percieved to be a dangerous and uncontrollable enemy.. however.. there is legitimacy to the other perspective since the suffering was not limited to Ukrainians. 

This is mostly a rhetorical question.. but.. I wonder why the "powers" of any given country often percieve peasants to be a threat of some sort.  I bring this up because of what happened in Mexico.  After the uprising there the offical media tried their best to demonize the peasants as savages.. not Mexican.. and a variety of other ethnic and national insults.  The Zapatistas responded by draping themselves in Mexican flags and proclaiming on national tv "soy 100% Mexicano"  I am 100% Mexican... it was actually a brilliant pr move that completely legitimized the rebellion and humilated the government.  Anyway.. the same dynamic exists throughout central and south America to this day...  peasants are always dangerous and not to be trusted by the "civilized" population.

[JR]

"A" and I had a long conversation about this topic.  She pointed out that the forced collectivization also affected millions of Russian peasants.  So, perhaps singling out Ukraine for genocide is not accurate.. the genocide was committed against peasants, Russian and Ukrainian. 

Also, Jolly.. your definition making the distinction between those who resist and those who do not is flawed.  Mass murder against any ethnicity or socio economic group is genocide regardless of Resistance.  For example, in Darfur the whole world is calling it genocide, yet, the victims support armed and violent rebel groups which are resisting the government and trying to protect the ethnic Africans in a Muslim country.  So, by your definition they are resisting and thus it is not genocide.  See the flaw?

Actually you are misconstruing what I am saying. My point is that everyone who opposed the Soviet system was punished. Would the starvation in Ukraine have been as severe if they were not actively opposing the established ruling party? I think the history would have been different. But no one can prove this. What happened happened and it can't be changed, only learned from.
Of course mass murder "genocide" happens to those who "go along to get along" that is why I made the statement "they are different, they must die." There are many different justifications for mass murder/genocide. History is ripe with examples of people being slaughtered because of the color of their skin, shape of their eyes, width of their noses, religious beliefs, etc. ad nauseum. It is also ripe with examples of mass murder due to resistance. There is a distinction between the two though I doubt the murdered care. Mass murder/genocide (whatever name you care to hang upon it) by governments for any reason is wrong.

[Ronnie]

This is mostly a rhetorical question.. but.. I wonder why the "powers" of any given country often percieve peasants to be a threat of some sort. 

That's an easy one to answer in Russia's case.  The peasants were tageted by Stalin because Lenin had already eliminated the intellectuals and artists.

[ScottinCrimea]

Jollyrats and Sculpto, I think you need to do some more reading about the Holodomor before you offer an opinion.  Much information has come out recently that was hidden before.

[OlgaH]

The joint declaration at the United Nations in 2003 has defined the famine as the result of cruel actions and policies of the totalitarian regime that caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs and other nationalities in the USSR.


Parliament recognises Ukrainian famine of 1930s as crime against humanity
(Plenary sessions)
External relations - 23-10-2008 - 12:14

In a resolution on the commemoration of the Holodomor, the artificial famine in Ukraine in 1932-1933, MEPs describe it as "an appalling crime against the Ukrainian people, and against humanity".
According to the resolution, the Holodomor famine of 1932-1933, which caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians, "was cynically and cruelly planned by Stalin's regime in order to force through the Soviet Union's policy of collectivisation of agriculture against the will of the rural population in Ukraine".
 
MEPs believe that "recalling crimes against humanity in European history should help to prevent similar crimes in the future" and they stress that "European integration has been based on a readiness to come to terms with the 20th century's tragic history and that this reconciliation with a difficult history does not denote any sense of collective guilt, but forms a stable basis for the construction of a common European future founded on common values".
 
The resolution therefore makes a "declaration to the people of Ukraine and in particular to the remaining survivors of the Holodomor and the families and relatives of the victims".
 
It "recognises the Holodomor (the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine) as an appalling crime against the Ukrainian people, and against humanity".
 
The text then "strongly condemns these acts, directed against the Ukrainian peasantry, and marked by mass annihilation and violations of human rights and freedoms".
 
It also "expresses its sympathy with the Ukrainian people, which suffered this tragedy, and pays its respects to those who died as a consequence of the artificial famine of 1932-1933".
 
Lastly, the resolution "calls on the countries which emerged following the break-up of the Soviet Union to open up their archives on the Holodomor in Ukraine of 1932-1933 to comprehensive scrutiny so that all the causes and consequences can be revealed and fully investigated".

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopress_page/030-40409-294-10-43-903-20081022IPR40408-20-10-2008-2008-false/default_en.htm

_______________________________________________________

In the city of Sevastopol the Ukrainian Security Service opened a photo exhibition on Holodomor, the 1930s famine in the USSR, but local politicians have noticed that some of the pictures have nothing to do with it.

“We established that some photos were taken from a US photo blog on the Great Depression of 1929-1930s. One of them made in 1935 in Arkansas, shot by Benjamin Shahn. Another one was taken in Oklahoma. Four out of six photos presented at the exhibition have nothing to do with Ukraine,” said city council deputy Andrey Merkulov.

“We recently published 19 books about the famine. We created the first ever name-by-name death toll list. And without Yushchenko this would have never happened,” said Vasiliy Marochko, Ukrainian historian.

“He spent millions on that. That’s in the times when our doctors, teachers, workers are struggling to make ends meet. It is Yushchenko, who’s orchestrating a modern day famine in Ukraine,” said Leonid Grach, Ukrainian opposition MP.

[youtube=425,350]WzmYpzJNkCs[/youtube]