Guest speaker at English class

[Ronnie]

Ronnie-

Quite simply, it's rude to go to another country and criticize their politics.  I can slam Bush all I want, I'm American.  But to criticize Putin or Russia while being a visitor is foolish, and all it's going to do is make Americans look worse.  I'd similarly have a problem with a Russian visitor to my home city slamming my country. 

As to whoever asked about my response to the economy question:  I told them it's not my field and not my expertise on what caused it.

Roy, I did not mean to suggest you be rude.  There are certainly ways to to answer questions without feeding the anti-American propaganda fire.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott,

There is the perfect solution...it's called the ignore button.  In fact I'm using right now myself.

Sandro, il mio amico -
Evviva i rompicoglioni! Abbasso chi pensa di essere perfetto!
 

Sorry to hear that alternate views offend you so much.  Better just to cover your ears.

[roykirk]

Roy, I did not mean to suggest you be rude.  There are certainly ways to to answer questions without feeding the anti-American propaganda fire.

I know there are ways, but I guess I just agreed with more of the "propaganda" than I disagreed with it.  If they had popped off with something really stupid and uneducated like American spies instigating the war in Georgia* or something, I certainly would have corrected them, but as it was there wasn't anything really over the top. 

*  This is perhaps the scariest thing right now.  My GF said a lot of people are paranoid about Americans right now because of this rumor.  She actually told me to "keep a low profile" during the day I was on my own while she was at work.  Scary and sad how pliable the minds of some people are.   

[Ronnie]

Maybe it would be enough to just remind those "pliables" who is running their country - they know Putin was and is KGB.  That should explain a lot to them if they haven't forgotten the legacy of the Cheka.

[Chicagoguy]

Several months ago I was invited to speak to adult students learning English in a Russian city. Most seemed to have positive opinions of America. Maybe because their teacher had been both here and in Great Britain.

One man did ask me if I thought the U.S. would have a recession. I told him it was possible but to remember that when the U.S. sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold. But even then I thought Russia's economy was bulletproof.

[Ronnie]

Several months ago I was invited to speak to adult students learning English in a Russian city. Most seemed to have positive opinions of America. Maybe because their teacher had been both here and in Great Britain.

One man did ask me if I thought the U.S. would have a recession. I told him it was possible but to remember that when the U.S. sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold. But even then I thought Russia's economy was bulletproof.

Teachers are in a powerful position to influence their students.  Especially those students who have limited access to objective information and no experience to draw on.

My wife has been enrolled in ESL classes here in California and she and her fellow students has been subjected to almost daily political indoctrination from her teachers.  When I wrote to the director of this taxpayer supported adult school, I got no reply.  However, my wife found herself suddenly the victim of the teacher's wrath to the point where she went from enjoying her classes to dreading them and eventually quitting.  The teacher in that case was a Cal Berkeley grad, if that helps you understand her leanings.

Currently my wife and her fellow students are once again subject to daily campaigning by her state-supported ESL teacher.  Recently, after weeks of haranguing against McCain and Palin and in favor of Obama/Biden she took a poll in the classroom by a show of hands who was for one side and who was for the other.  When the few raised their hands for McCain-Palin, they were subjected to boos and catcalls.  Disgusting!   Fortunately, my wife abstained knowing she's not permitted to vote anyway and knowing my views as an independent.

If I could speak to that class or any class, I would voice my view that party politics should be replaced with discussing each issue on it's own without looking to see what one's party leaders have to say about it.  The founding fathers felt that way and wisely so.

[Blues Fairy]

When the few raised their hands for McCain-Palin, they were subjected to boos and catcalls. 

Here's a post from VJ with a recent video from NYC demonstration of Republicans and how the New-Yorkers reacted.  Very educational.  Unfortunately I can't link to Youtube directly so I'll just post the link to the thread:
http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=156343

[msmoby_ru]

Tax increase is coming with Obama so I plan on not working much after 2009.   

Doesn't REALLY matter who gets elected.. be it the USA , UK .. taxes WILL go up - in the future.. we're ALL going to be paying for the bailing out of financial institutions..nationalising banks..

[Ronnie]

Here's a post from VJ with a recent video from NYC demonstration of Republicans and how the New-Yorkers reacted.  Very educational.  Unfortunately I can't link to Youtube directly so I'll just post the link to the thread:
http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=156343

Thanks Blues Fairy. While watching the video is dismaying, it is not shocking as New Yorkers have always been a rowdy, loud-mouthed bunch with no history of civil discourse. 

However, I'm more than dismayed to see the teachers indoctrinating our children and new immigrants with such intolerance and stupidity and it's going on even in places like my county which is generally tolerant of all views.

[docetae]

Thanks Blues Fairy. While watching the video is dismaying, it is not shocking as New Yorkers have always been a rowdy, loud-mouthed bunch with no history of civil discourse. 

However, I'm more than dismayed to see the teachers indoctrinating our children and new immigrants with such intolerance and stupidity and it's going on even in places like my county which is generally tolerant of all views.

Blues Fairy and Ronnie, this is showing nothing. Do a democrat rally within a city with strong republican roots, you will see the same. Why ? Because the number of assholes is always the same, on both side of the political landscape and in all countries...This is really strange because proportion is always the same whatever the size of the sample. and whatever you do, this is always them you will hear first.

We should all remember this sentence, written by a friend of Voltaire, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

[groovlstk]

Here's a post from VJ with a recent video from NYC demonstration of Republicans and how the New-Yorkers reacted.  Very educational.  Unfortunately I can't link to Youtube directly so I'll just post the link to the thread:
http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=156343

Before anyone on the Right thinks they can teach New Yorkers something about civil discourse, perhaps they should learn to reign in sick religious extremists from their party like Jerry Falwell who hadn't even let the bodies of our dead families and friends cool to days after 9/11 before blaming the whole thing on "liberals" rather than Al Qaeda.

[Ronnie]

Before anyone on the Right thinks they can teach New Yorkers something about civil discourse, perhaps they should learn to reign in sick religious extremists from their party like Jerry Falwell who hadn't even let the bodies of our dead families and friends cool to days after 9/11 before blaming the whole thing on "liberals" rather than Al Qaeda.

The bolded words tell you all you need to know about certain people who want to control the speech they don't agree with.  It has always been the socialist attitude and always will be.  Just purge those who don't hold the party view.

Docetae...show me a video to back up your words.  The severe and pervasive intolerance is uncategorically on the left.

[groovlstk]

The bolded words tell you all you need to know about certain people who want to control the speech they don't agree with.  It has always been the socialist attitude and always will be.  Just purge those who don't hold the party view.

Docetae...show me a video to back up your words.  The severe and pervasive intolerance is uncategorically on the left.

Funny, I don't see books being burned or challenged in schools and libraries in NYC.

Then again, the religious right doesn't read very much so perhaps in the bible belt they don't count the written word as speech.

[docetae]

The bolded words tell you all you need to know about certain people who want to control the speech they don't agree with.  It has always been the socialist attitude and always will be.  Just purge those who don't hold the party view.

Docetae...show me a video to back up your words.  The severe and pervasive intolerance is uncategorically on the left.

Yes, certainly, Pinochet was a far left activist, Karl Rowe has a secret wet dream about Karl Marx and Ann Coulter was Trotsky's lover in a previous life.

I can explain you why you are irritating people  This is a mix of several behavior:
- You are acting like a 2 years old trying to find the limit where you can push your interlocutor in order to show him his/her lack of patience and openness.
- You classify everything and refuse to debate about ideas, pushing the idea of conspiration against your group of thoughts in order to refuse debate. In absolutely no cases, you have tried to argument your ideas but you always talk about the lack of openness of the "other side" in order to shutdown any exchange of thoughts.

During this thread, despite our opposite political views, I have tried to get ideas and arguments from your side:

- I asked you about your understanding of the social democrat model, you always replied with socialism as doctrine without telling nothing about your thought on this model, why you are against this. No answer make me think you know nothing about this and you hide your lack of political culture this way. Socialism, Communism and social democracy are 3 different things for your information.

- I tried to get more thoughts from your side, hoping you will be able to understand that my remark about the syllogism you use very often was just a gate open for you to enter this talk.

- Finally, as I don't want to go trough an exhaustive statistical analysis of extremist left and right who tried to limit speech, I wrote this last post.. but you come back with your note about socialist doctrine again.

You do exactly here the behavior you tell about socialist/leftist :
- You refuse to oppose point of view.
- You try to change people understanding by deception rather than by understanding

You use perfect propagandas techniques:

- You are attacking your opponent instead of attacking his arguments.
- You are using socialism ad nauseam, repeating always the same hoping it will become the truth for the reader.
- You are appealing to fear
- Black/White arguments, no shade allowed
- You oppose individual to organizations (the good right activist against socialism)
- You use syllogism, dysphemism, repetitions and testimonials

You are very talented at this and I am suprised, if I follow your thoughts that you have not yet been used as model by socialist activists who would like to improve their knowledge about propaganda.

Of course, I can be wrong, but I let you answer with only one request, please. Even if this is the first time in your life, do not use words, socialist, communist, left and try to have ARGUMENTS.

ps: English is not my native language as you know probably, so all my apologizes if I have done mistakes.

[Blues Fairy]

Before anyone on the Right thinks they can teach New Yorkers something about civil discourse, perhaps they should learn to reign in sick religious extremists from their party

And how should they "reign them in", put scotch across their mouths? 
I like religious extremists even less than I like liberals, but if any of them chose to go with a peaceful demonstration across our town, booing and insulting them would be the last thing on my mind.  But I guess that's just the naive me.  I thought liberalism, too, was all about tolerance, acceptance etc?

[Ronnie]

I thought liberalism, too, was all about tolerance, acceptance etc?

Such is the hypocrisy of liberals who so poisoned the word that they now call them selves "progressives".  There is nothing liberal about the left nor is there anything progressive about them. As we have seen demonstrated over and over there is very little difference between authoritarian left and authoritarian right.  They pretend to be far apart but they actually meet if you bend the spectrum into a circle which is as a practical matter, how the spectrum seems to work politically.

Docetae, I haven't refused to debate you nor have I attacked a messenger.  Come to think of it, that's exactly what your last post does.

Tell us all about your social democracy and what makes it appealing to you.  We remember well that East Germany was officially the "German Democratic Republic".  Words mean nothing unless you show an example.

[ScottinCrimea]

The bolded words tell you all you need to know about certain people who want to control the speech they don't agree with.  It has always been the socialist attitude and always will be.  Just purge those who don't hold the party view.

Docetae...show me a video to back up your words.  The severe and pervasive intolerance is uncategorically on the left.

Wouldn't this be like putting someone on your ignore list?

[docetae]

Docetae, I haven't refused to debate you nor have I attacked a messenger.  Come to think of it, that's exactly what your last post does.

Tell us all about your social democracy and what makes it appealing to you.  We remember well that East Germany was officially the "German Democratic Republic".  Words mean nothing unless you show an example.

For me, social democracy make me think to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Brazil (now)...
Definition: "Social democrats aim to reform capitalism democratically through state regulation and the creation of programs that work to counteract or remove the injustices and inefficiencies perceived in capitalism." You have a strong central government who will have universal welfare, help to jobless people. For me, some part of our environment must not respond to capitalistic logic. So this is normal to have losses in the health sector, pension, etc, losses that must be balanced by taxes.

One more time, as it was already said, socialism defined by Marx is previous state before communism, this is why these countries were called socialist. Everybody agree to say that this definition of socialism as it was used as doctrine has nothing to do with freedom.

[Blues Fairy]

For me, social democracy make me think to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Brazil (now)...
Definition: "Social democrats aim to reform capitalism democratically through state regulation and the creation of programs that work to counteract or remove the injustices and inefficiencies perceived in capitalism." You have a strong central government who will have universal welfare, help to jobless people. For me, some part of our environment must not respond to capitalistic logic. So this is normal to have losses in the health sector, pension, etc, losses that must be balanced by taxes.

My Mom lives in Sweden so I'm quite familiar with their brand of socialism.  I will not even start enumerating the "efficiencies" of their system.  Their economy is in deep decline.  Even among the Swedish analysts there is consensus that the Swedish model failed miserably.
An article here: http://www.discovery.org/a/2013

[William3rd]

The bolded words tell you all you need to know about certain people who want to control the speech they don't agree with.  It has always been the socialist attitude and always will be.  Just purge those who don't hold the party view.

Docetae...show me a video to back up your words.  The severe and pervasive intolerance is uncategorically on the left.

you cant really believe all the stuff that you are posting. . . you just can't.

[Ronnie]

For me, social democracy make me think to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Brazil (now)...
Definition: "Social democrats aim to reform capitalism democratically through state regulation and the creation of programs that work to counteract or remove the injustices and inefficiencies perceived in capitalism." You have a strong central government who will have universal welfare, help to jobless people. For me, some part of our environment must not respond to capitalistic logic. So this is normal to have losses in the health sector, pension, etc, losses that must be balanced by taxes.

Thank you Docetae for giving some specifics.  The countries you listed as examples are all small.  The exception of course is Brazil.  However Brazil has rampant poverty and crime and no welfare system that I'm aware of.  What they do have is energy independence.  Again, I'm not in position to say what's right or wrong with their systems.

Now, you say Social Democrat work to remove inefficiencies and injustices in Capitalism.  Free Market capitalism is in fact the antidote to government inefficiencies.  You see it as the other way around.  I find that perspective to be at odds with reality.  Government is not efficient.  And among forms of government, dictatorship is the most efficient while democracy is perhaps the least.

You say that in a Social Democracy, "You have a strong central government who will have universal welfare, help to jobless people."  You don't, however, say what for the help will take and what the welfare involves.  It has been said that the best welfare is a good job.  So it would seem that you take care of both these points if you have a system that encourages people to start businesses of the own, nurture their success so that they will need to hire people.  This is the system that I feel resolves the issues you say government can best help.  On this point, let me say that I have read many stories of successful businesses that started because the founder was laid off from his job.  What if when he was laid off, the government stepped in and said, "don't worry about your situation, we will support you!"?
That entrepreneur may never have dared venture out to pursue a dream of starting a business.

That leads me to my view of what government should and shouldn't do.  When a government over regulates and industry, what that often means is that only big established businesses can afford to meet all the requirements.  For a small guy to start up, the barriers can be insurmountable and he or she has not option but to find a job working for a big business or the government itself.  In too many countries around the world, and United States is becoming one of them, it is simply too difficult to start a business.  The result is that unemployment grows and more and more people rely on welfare.

Having said that, I agree there are certainly areas that need better regulation or controlled better by the government.  America needs reform in these areas: 

Medical care.  Our healthcare system has been hurt by trial lawyers and outrageous jury awards in malpractice cases.  Despite the cost of malpractice insurance we have surgeons earning in the millions of dollars per year.  Medical schools in America are hard for bright students to get into, many resort to going to foreign schools where admission is nearly wide open.  The result is we don't always get the best doctors we could have had.  Doubling the number of med schools would greatly improve the quality and quantity of medical professionals and help control costs.

Our business regulations need to be reviewed constantly for usefulness.  As we have seen with IMBRA, rules and regulations get put into place based on some perceived need or injustice but then never reviewed.  The regulations just pile up, making it nearly impossible to operate.

Our tax laws need to be thrown out and a new code developed that is simpler to administer and not the product of special interest lobbyists.  When I lived in Italy many years ago, practically nobody paid their income taxes.  I'm sure the other European countries had similar problems collecting income taxes.  The Value Added Tax (VAT) while decried in America at that time as regressive (sales tax IS regressive), has actually worked quite well and works as a subsidy for exporters which frustrates our manufacturers.   So I'm one who thinks should totally rethink our tax system and in so doing I would hope that we would return to the ideas of the founding fathers who did not want to tax productivity but finance the government by imposing tariffs on imported goods.

Tariffs were in place for most of the time when America prospered and good jobs were created.  Once we signed up with GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade), NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) and the WTO (World Trade Organization) America began to falter, losing our manufacturing base as our capital moved to cheap labor regions of the world.  A staunch republican friend of mine argues that free trade is good for America.  John McCain says the same thing.  The evidence is overwhelming that they are wrong.  We need to restore our tariffs and protect our workers and business.  Someone once said tariffs are the fee we charge foreign entities for the right to sell in our market.  Nothing could be more fair.

So Docetae, most people agree on goals.  However, there are usually different routes to that goal - some work, some don't.  Nobody has all the answers.

[Ronnie]

you cant really believe all the stuff that you are posting. . . you just can't.

William,
Read "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky.  It may help you understand better the tactics used by the left, especially the part about ridiculing "the enemy".

Ooops!  It just occurred to me that maybe you've already read it. 

[groovlstk]

And how should they "reign them in", put scotch across their mouths? 
I like religious extremists even less than I like liberals, but if any of them chose to go with a peaceful demonstration across our town, booing and insulting them would be the last thing on my mind.  But I guess that's just the naive me.  I thought liberalism, too, was all about tolerance, acceptance etc?

BF, I'm not a liberal - despite what a certain ideological nincompoop on this board would like to tag me as - and the brand of liberal we have in Manhattan is among the most condescending, preachy nag you'll ever meet (perfectly described by David Brooks in Bobos in Paradise, BTW). However, for all their faults, I've found that people here are among the most tolerant in the US. We invented the Bronx cheer and will never be praised for our hospitality and manners, but c'mon: the makers of that video are outraged because a few people disagreed w/their politics and showed them the bird? They should have waited around until dark and made their way to Rawhide in Chelsea if they truly wanted to be offended. Although who knows, some of the men might have experienced a Brokeback moment.

[OlgaH]

One thing I was confused about and didn't have time to clarify was about Russia's education system.  There were two 23 y/o women in the class I spoke with.  One is working on her PhD, and the other said she was a 3rd year medical student.  I don't understand how this is possible.  Is it because Russians graduate from high school at a younger age and start college earlier?  Most Americans graduate high school at age 18 or close to it.  You'd be hard-pressed to be a 3rd year medical student here at anything less than age 25 (graduate at 18, 4 years undergrad + 3 years medical school), unless you graduated early.  I also have several friends who are PhDs, and not a one of them managed to do it before age 28.  Are our education systems so different?

GENERAL ELEMENTARY EDUCATION
http://www.russia-ic.com/education_science/education/system/103/

Russian professional education
http://www.russia-ic.com/education_science/education/system/1/

Higher Education
Types of institutions and degrees
http://www.justlanded.com/english/Russia/Tools/Just-Landed-Guide/Education/Higher-Education

[Ronnie]

BF, I'm not a liberal - despite what a certain ideological nincompoop on this board would like to tag me as - 

If you're referring to me and I think you are given your past shots at me, I'm a registered Independent and form my own views irrespective of any party policy.  I agree with the dems on some the repubs on other but mostly I disagree with both. 

Your comment about "reining in" people speaks volumes for who you are..there's no difference between hushing up someone and burning books, which you seem to despise and accuse the advocating.  I understand you being upset I called you on it but I had no choice.

We invented the Bronx cheer and will never be praised for our hospitality and manners, but c'mon: the makers of that video are outraged because a few people disagreed w/their politics and showed them the bird? They should have waited around until dark and made their way to Rawhide in Chelsea if they truly wanted to be offended. Although who knows, some of the men might have experienced a Brokeback moment.

I think the point of the video was the continuous  haranguing, cursing and middle-finger displays by not just a few people.  They were the very definition of rowdy mob.  And, I do believe you when you say these were not the worst to be found in NYC. 

You bring up Rev. Falwell for whom I have no great admiration.  Why not also mention the good reverends Jesse Jackson, Jeremiah Wright Jr.,  Al Sharpton or Father Pfleger, not to mention Louis Farrakhan all of who preach hatred and intolerance...why do you select only Jerry Falwell?  Who is the idealogue here?

I know this will only ruffle your already ruffled feathers but you don't leave a guy much choice.  You might try addressing what's said rather than trying to insult with dismissive name calling.  Just a suggestion.