The true GCG

[Timmy K.]

Thanks Photo Guy,

For sure its on the back of my mind, and we all know that a RW wants a better life, one of the main motivators for them to come here, also there are some others,   

1- A good man who can take care of them and give them the family they so desire, a man who isn;t going to abuse them and come home drunk the majority of the time, a man who is going to give them their say in all matters, I think this phrase from them is " mutual understanding". How many times have you read a profile from a RW that theses 2 words were not there

2- A real chance to use their education to their benifit, I don;t know how many times that I have read that a RW who applies herself in school here can usually get her American qualifications in about half the time her American counterparts can. Now I do not know the details of all of this but right here in Des Moines I can give you 3 or 4 examples of their ability to achieve.   I think this is what a RW means when she says I want a man who will " Share in common goals and interests"                              Vika told me she wants to make her man a better man, '''thats me guys"" this is what she believes she must do for her family and if I listen to her, which I do and if I keep this honesty, which I do with her,and if I keep this open mind with her, which I do and if I am willing to let her be the woman she wants so much to be, which I try to do with the best of my ability. I think we have a pretty good chance for a lasting relationship. A good female friend of mine asked me awhile back, [ How is it going with your Russian girl friend ?} I said good. She said { Tim , is she good for you?} and of course based on what I just wrote I said -very much so.  Yes, it is hard to pinpoint what might happen in 2, 3 ,4 or more years, and like Bruno said they are all potential GCG'S. LETS GET REAL, any one from another country would love  to get a green card here in America. Look at all our great neighbors down south. Any thing beats the dirt floors they have slept on. ---- But a traditional RW, according to what I have read, will stay with her man,  IF he is a  "good man' This means for me to keep doing what I have been doing and take the action to be better. This is what she wants from me and what she wants to do for me, I hope I can hold the candle.  Maybe I have gotten off track here, but I have to trust what we have, I think I heard some one say trust. and along with honesty, openminded and willingness.

[Rando]

Sorry havent read this whole thread...

 

I think GCG are real and more common than we may imagine. Even if they dont start out as GCG the local russian population will soon have them up to speed on what to do if things dont work out. Also who to see about insurance fraud, medicare fraud, and priate software and video...all Russian specialties.

I see Jb has injected some political humor here in that Dumbya has somehow won a popular vote...I beleive it was just the electoral vote. I would agree that the DEMS have put forth piss poor choises but how can you defend this fool just because he comes from your state? His best qualification was that his father was pres (and not all that successful either)

I think 2000 dead vets families would disagree that doing something is better than doing nothing. In fact those responsible for 9/11 are still at large and Iraq never had weapons of mass destruction... rather Dumbya attacked because his father was made a fool years before. And now we are in a quagmire worse than Vietnam...where I served uselessly!

I will agree that Gore and Bush are idiots...and that both the DEMS and REPULBS have put forth the most terrible choises we have had to pick from for leaders.

Without a war Bushy would have been gone last election...not that the Dems had a good canidate there either...although I liked the look at that vice pres canidate...

It always amazes to find people willing to stand up for this fool knowing what we know today...better to do something indeed. A 1.85 GPA fool thats all hat! God save us all!

[andrewfi]

1~If the women did not want to marry a foreign guy they would not sign up with an internationally facing marriage or dating agency. There are literally millions of women on FSU facing dating sites and a few tens of thousands on internationally facing ones. If one signs up with the purpose of leaing their country by marriage then that makes them 'GCGs'. Sorry, but if that elemental truth is uunacceptable it is not my worry.

2~ That some women are more manipulative, or more scheming than others does not mean that the ones who are less so are not GCGs.

3~Circumstantial evidence can get you hanged. In crime solving it is reckoned that 7 pieces of circumstantial evidence are enough to conclusively demonstrate guilt.

4~Is being a GCG a bad thing? Of course not. For women to seek economic betterment is normal and accepted by many, if not most, men; but as Maxx and others have found out there are benign and malevolent GCGs. Your task as a suitor of a woman who is seeking to live in a different country is to find a woman who is of benign intent; one who is willing to offer adequate value in return for her exit ticket. Maxx and others have found women that did not offer value. Whether the intent of these women changed due ot the what they found out about their man I do not know; my guess would be that at least some women change their intent based upon their increased knowledge of the man to whom they are married and their choice to follow through upon their overall plan.

5~The question to ask yourselves is whether being a GCG is inherently a bad thing. Posters here seem conflicted. On the one hand they nowadays seem willing to accept that women DO have an economic motive for moving and that it is significant, if not overriding - That is good, it shows learning, a couple of years ago, most guys seemed to think it was all about love. On the other hand, the use of the word GCG carries with it an emotional weight that hinders the acceptance of the concept by guys. If you do not accept the reality, you can not deal with it. Guys, Deal with it!

For myself, it seems that the change of country, the visa, the Green Card is the basis of the transaction betwixt the men and the women. If you were Russian men the agency women would not p!ss on most of you guys if you were on fire. The reason that you get the time of day from them is because of the 'non personal benefits' that you offer: life in a different (and dreamed of) country, relative wealth, security, more leisure etc. All these things come because you live in your particular country (be it the US, or Italy, or even Belgium. So, in order to achieve their goals they will put up with your obesity, your lack of language skills, your advanced age, poor personal grooming and your personal attitudes.

You wanna find a less emotionally charged term to describe women who sell themselves in agency catalogues, to guys they hardly know, in order that they might live with their dependents in another country, then fine, find a term and agree to use it and that it carries little negative emotional weight. In the mean time, the phrase works, it is accurate and it describes very well the attitudes of the women in the internationally facing marriage agencies.


BC~ Originally you asked if it was easier to scam than to travel. I think that you are correct in thinking that scamming is easier than travelling, but of course, most of the scamming is likely not done, or organised by women anyway. When one gets to the Pareto Girls, well, my guess is that in the end they will settle down with somebody, the guy who offers them a package that persuades them to change path, whether he is local or foreign is moot. The long tail of women in agencies might dream of scamming guys, but get so few opportunities that they are not in a position to emulate their more popular sisters and so go down the emigration route. There are vastly more women in the long tail of agency women than there are Pareto Girls and hence many more GCGs


Bruno ~ I would tend to believe centrally collected statistics over what you see on the back of your lawn tractor. Sorry but there it is. It is obvious from your reply that you did not understand what was written, in English. You are still confusing two different but overlapping concepts, that of being foreign and being from the EU. I wrote specifically, plainly and without confusion about people from the EU, who are, of course foreigners when they live in different countries of the EU, but they are but a small subset of the whole group of 'foreigners'. You can tell me that there are over 8% foreign workers in your country, but the number of EU citizens among them is much smaller and is, subject to local variations, as I noted. Sorry if the difference is hard to understand. I dunno how to make it simpler for you.
 

[Bruno]

Bruno ~ I would tend to believe centrally collected statistics over what you see on the back of your lawn tractor. Sorry but there it is. It is obvious from your reply that you did not understand what was written, in English. You are still confusing two different but overlapping concepts, that of being foreign and being from the EU. I wrote specifically, plainly and without confusion about people from the EU, who are, of course foreigners when they live in different countries of the EU, but they are but a small subset of the whole group of 'foreigners'. You can tell me that there are over 8% foreign workers in your country, but the number of EU citizens among them is much smaller and is, subject to local variations, as I noted. Sorry if the difference is hard to understand. I dunno how to make it simpler for you.

Andrewfin, you are really a a$$hole when you wish... read my post before make so comment... i have show that on the 8.7% from foreigner in Belgium, more of 50% of these foreigner was from Europe... if i post link, it is because i hope that you read them... but since you seem not accept the reality, i close the discussion about this...

Now, about all women be GCG, it is the same... closed to other idea... some have show that FSU don't all wish go outside FSU... i have personaly life 5 year with a GCG and now, i know some of the behavour of these women... and i keep to say that FSU women can marry for several reason : Green card is one possible but not the only one... by example, what are the chance to find a man locally for a divorced FSU woman from 35 year old with two children... almost none locally... so, she have more chance with foreign dating... She don't wish a GC but a husband and father... of course, if she is cute, she can find some localy lover but not a man for marry...

[Jet]

Honestly Marc, I do not know one person personally who got into our country that way, nor has anyone ever approached me to act as a mule prior to marriage.  

 

We have a neighbor, who's russian that did this for 10k The AM husband lives down in Miami somewhere and he phones her anytime something comes in the mail from BCIS. They file taxes as a married couple but otherwise have no contact, she lives w/ her RM boyfriend here in Ft Laud....

 

[andrewfi]

Bruno, you are being silly. You were not commenting about your country when you queried, erroneously, what I wrote, but Europe. You can try to slice your 'definitions' as fine as you wish, it does not make a difference. You were incorrect in your original assertion. I do not expect you to apologise, there is no need, but when you continue as you are then I have to understna that you are either illiterate or a fool. I have chosen to go with illiteracy until now as it is the most charitable explanation. Do you wish that I should change my opinion? As I wrote upthread, what you see from the back of your park tractor is not Europe, it is one small area in one small country.

BTW Bruno, tell me, why would a woman who did not want to leave her country be advertising on an internationally facing MOB site where the stated objetive of such businesses is to find foreign husbands for women who seek them? If you met your 'example' through such a site, I would suggest that she was politely telling you she was not interested in you, at least not for a long term relationship... We probably do not need to examine why that might be, but as you told us, you already have  experience of a woman who will accept you as you are, in order to leave her country.

[KenC]

KenC

[Maxx]

i keep to say that FSU women can marry for several reason : Green card is one possible but not the only one... by example, what are the chance to find a man locally for a divorced FSU woman from 35 year old with two children... almost none locally... so, she have more chance with foreign dating... She don't wish a GC but a husband and father... of course, if she is cute, she can find some localy lover but not a man for marry...

Bruno nailed it. There are allot of RW past a certain age and especially with children who know a chance to get a Russian husband who doesn't drink, use drugs, isn't abusive or womanizes is slim to none. They don't want a lover who comes and goes. Someone they can't trust around their children and teenage daughters. They don't want to put up with a drunk who lays around the house all day waiting for her paycheck. Good Russian men with a good income for a family? I am sure there are some but if they find themselves unattached why choose a woman in her late thirties or early fourties with kids if there are 20 something HRBs all over the place?

Guys I have traveled some. I have friends who have traveled some. Even some who live overseas part of the year. I know there are places in the world that if I lived there as an expat I could fill my house with 18-20 year olds if I desired that (Note:I'm 52). With family approval no less. Just provide a roof and food. RM with limited bad habits and a bit of money find themselves in similar circumstances with perhaps just slightly older women.

Maxx 

 

[KenC]

Maxx,

I think you were very near the root of the problem when you questioned the availablity of good Russian men with a good income.   Besides the (some what over exaggerated) characteristics of RM being drunks, abusers and unfaithfull, there is a great portion who simply cannot afford to have a wife and family.  They become eliminated from the mix automatically because of their lack of any financial standing. 

Hmmm, let me think now.  RW are not going after men that cannot afford to provide even the basics for life?  They must be GCG's!!!!

KenC

 

[Bruno]

Like Ken wrote, russian man beeing all alcholic is a big myth... some drink a lot but not all... the main problem is in the spirit of Russian men...

First, fidelity is something not usual in Russia... if a man have not some side woman, the other man think that he is a looser... and really, for these who have visit russian, they have no problem for hunt young meat...

Second problem is the responsability... a lot of time, in very young couple, the man go away when the woman is pregnant... they marry young, make child and run...

Woman older ( up 30 year old ), of with child have a low chance to find a life partner... and usualy, russian men don't like child who are not from his own... foreign dating is a way...

Now, about the young sexy RW around 18 year old who begin be numerous on MOB site, i have really some doubt over the real motivation... maybe SOME of them are GCG of economical bride ( gold finder )...

[Maxx]

Yes I did over exaggerate with the RM. I know there are plenty of good ones. Also there maybe some who would pass by the twenty year olds in favor of a more mature late 30's woman. Maybe adopt her children as his own and give them his inheritance when he dies. Somehow I see this as few. Maybe very few. I am exaggerating again. You are right there is not allot of RM who can provide well for a family especially a second family. Yes this is about money. But a woman wanting a man to provide for her family is not a dishonorable woman. A woman using a guy to get into a Western country with no intention of making the marriage work, scamming him with lies to get his money and then running off with a younger or more well off man is dishonorable. It's the second woman who is a GCG not the woman who wants her daughter to have a good education and puts real effort into making her marriage work. I see these women as well intentioned and honorable.

 
Maxx

 

[KenC]

Maxx,

My comment about over exaggerating how many RM are drunks, abusive and unfaithfull was not only directed to your post because many of us, me included, have done so in the past.

KenC

[Maxx]

I wasn't offended in the least with your comment Ken. I do want to present a balanced picture in this discussion about what is a GCGs. As example I cannot call a woman a GCG if her marriage just doesn't work but she waits the appropiate time (after she gets her GC) to pull the plug. To me it is simply about 2 things. Her intention when going into the marriage of trying to make it work and her following through with this. Even the INS sees it that way. However the intent of the woman is hard to prove in most cases. That is why the INS does not prosecute marriage fraud except in the cases of more than one person involved in the fraud. In other words a man who has been defrauded by a GCG is not protected nor is she prosecuted by the INS. If however together they conspire then the INS will prosecute as in these cases it maybe more easy to prove intent with the money trail and/or not living together but claiming to (Caulfield) and so on. Then the fraud is against the government. Understanding this is the key to understanding exactly what is a GCG. She is a woman who commits marriage fraud against her husband or with her husband's help against the government (laws).

Maxx

  

[anono]

in one corner we have andrewfi who is of the opinion ALL women, without exception are GCG's.

then we have the more moderate, like kenC, racer and a few others.

my experience, here in the trenches, has been, most of the ladies i met did not care if the agency was "international" or not. the ladies in poltava simply said they did not want to be limited to the men in poltava. one said "we all know each other" and simply are looking outside of just poltava. dasha, my last girlfriend met with a russian man who found her on a site.

"j" does not want to come to the usa, she wants me to live in ukraine. i had a long talk with a representative of an agency. she told me she would prefer europe over america any day, this coming after having seen how most of the AM she meets act.

in fact, many of the women here are becoming disillusioned with AM and hope to meet a man from europe or their own country.

andrewfi is like some "know it alls" that i know. they disregard any new information and are unwilling to change their minds regardless of the new facts. i respect his opinion on just about everything with the exception being that all these ladies are GCG's "no if's and or butts". i welcome andrew to come to ukraine, meet julia and see what her motivation is himself. her reactions to what i say are real and pure. she would live with me in siberia if that is where i chose to live. i am not going to repeat what she has said and done, but i know when i told her about coming to america it was a simple "ok". when i told her i may come and live in ukraine, i could hear her jumping up and down while she was saying with force and emotion "YES! YES! YES! YES!" it was not acting, it was real, pure and simple. she loves her family, she loves her job and while she would come to the usa to be with me, she would much rather i come to live in ukraine. it is simply a fact.

andrew, i basically live in ukraine. when is the last time you have been to an agency and meet a ukrainian woman, in ukraine? i agree, many, maybe even the majority (but i do not know and i am not going to pretend that i do) are GCG's but i doubt it. many just are seeking an alternative to the descriptions above about ukrainian and russian men.

there are a lot of women going to waste here in ukraine because the chances of them finding a good man who will make a good husband are slim. there are simply too many ladies to go around. even julias best friend is "dating" a married guy. why? no decent single guys to date. to her, the married guy is probably more stable and seeing fewer women than the single guys.

we may as well just give up on trying to educate andrewfi...he is exhibiting the rationality and behavior of a "know it all", one who actually is proving to me he does not know much at all, at least about the motivation of some of these women. while some of these agencies are indeed "international" in scope, many of the women who join these agencies would much rather meet a man from their own country and have little to no desire to leave their families, friends, jobs and life here in ukraine.

now, who is going to know this? a man in estonia or a man here in the trenches, with almost two years here in ukraine?

[Bruno]

in fact, many of the women here are becoming disillusioned with AM and hope to meet a man from europe or their own country.

Since the financial situation in FSU become better slowly, not so much women wish relocated... only if they find the right man... they are not so desesperate that previously... from financial, the interest have shift to real value... these who make a good husband...

Now, European men are not better that American... we have only the advantage of distance, to be on the same continent, to have a more easy politic in regard of tourist visa ( 3 month visa, can be prolong to 6 month... several visit possible )... Odessa-Moscow or Odessa-Paris need around the same time for a trip...

But we have not only these little advantage over American men... European have bad reputation, FSU people find us "greedy"... because we don't show so much money that American ( since we have more low money )... so, scammer, Gold digger and GCG choice more a American man that a European man...

In any case, we have our poll of looser, misluck or sexual maniac in Europa too...

 

[catzenmouse]

when i told her i may come and live in ukraine, i could hear her jumping up and down while she was saying with force and emotion "YES! YES! YES! YES!" it was not acting, it was real, pure and simple. she loves her family, she loves her job and while she would come to the usa to be with me, she would much rather i come to live in ukraine. it is simply a fact.

Elena would love nothing more than to move back home to Omsk. She does not like Americans in general nor very many of the FSUers living here. She says in quite plain language that the only reason she stays here is because of me. We are beginning to plan on how I can take an early retirement so that we can move to Russia and live decently on her job and my retirement. I've still got a few years to go before that happens but she's ready to go now and said that she will work and I can stay home with Sergei.

 She feels (and I agree with her in most of this) that Americans in general are borish, uneducated, self and country centric with no regard for others or the rest of the world. They are so locked into the "we are the greatest" that they cannot see how patheticly they represent the country or how lowly they are viewed by the rest of the world.

Ken

[jb]

Ken,

What she is going through is fairly typical of the newly arived RW. After she has been here a year and then makes a trip home to Russia, you might see her turn her head around a bit.  America isn't nearly as bad as she thought at first comparison.

The fact that you appear to somewhat agree with her is a little troublesome to me, perhaps you should think first about a change of location, or a change in social circles.  Richmond, VA is hardly the intellectual or social center of the universe.  Before you decide to give Lady Liberty the finger and move to Russia, you might want to get away from all those Virginia rednecks and see what life is like in a more cosmopolitian part of the country.

[KenC]

Ken,

What she is going through is fairly typical of the newly arived RW. After she has been here a year and then makes a trip home to Russia, you might see her turn her head around a bit. America isn't nearly as bad as she thought at first comparison.

The fact that you appear to somewhat agree with her is a little troublesome to me, perhaps you should think first about a change of location, or a change in social circles. Richmond, VA is hardly the intellectual or social center of the universe. Before you decide to give Lady Liberty the finger and move to Russia, you might want to get away from all those Virginia rednecks and see what life is like in a more cosmopolitian part of the country.

jb is right on the money with his comments here.  Every year Lena became more and more attached to the US and less attached to Russia.  It has been a hoot watching her transformation.  In the beginning she had endless debates with me and my adult children in regard to how much better Russian life was over the American way of life.  Slowly, this has turned 180 degrees around.  On her last trip to Russia, she was involved in a huge debate on the same subject, but only this time she was defending America to her Russian relatives.  The truth is, is that there are good and bad in both countries but you cannot ever match the opportunities found in America.

KenC

[catzenmouse]

I'm not ready to bolt just yet and early retirement for me is still 10 years off at the earliest. I won't move to let her work and me stay home and we've talked about this also. I hope that after she gets some education here and gets into a field that she enjoys that she will like it better but if she doesn't and cannot handle it I would rather be with her there than without her here. I know from others that I have talked to that trips home to see the reality of it all over again can, and sometimes do make a difference so we will see next Spring when we go for a visit.

 I am in this area because my mother is nearby and is getting on in years. No one else in the family is worth a s*&t for helping out so I am in this area for a few more years anyway. And yes, Richmond is a backwater in many ways and in mentality is quite often stuck in the 50's. I had a house outside of the city when she first came here but with her not driving and nothing to do for work we decided to move more into the city. That has helped some. I have been looking at the DC area for work for the last few months but so far nothing has come up that I could take and afford to live on in the DC area.

 I have seen a lot more of the predijuce of people in general since she has been here with a great deal of stupid comments of all kinds. I know part of that is the area and part of it is because Joe Public is just not very bright no matter where you are. I appreciate your comments and advice and I think that some of this is just my frustration at the current situation with the situation and the issues we are facing.

Ken

[anono]

jb, and you think texas is the answer !!??!!  just kidding....

i agree with ken and cat.. there is both good and bad in all countries, some worse, some better than others. but i also agree with ken on what most americans are like..they are, in general, boorish and uneducated. even in texas! and yes, in illinois as well. just not my family... ;-)

[jb]

anono,

I've been to Virginia, I know from which I speak.

Edit:  I've also been to Illinois,,, so don't push it.

[Aventurero]

I want to say that what I am about to go into is a little off topic, but when I went back to previous posts I recognize that it really isn't. Nevertheless, if the moderator decides that it is, I would still like to cover the remainder of the topic as a separate post.

Here goes...

I retired early and have really looked into different places to live, including Mexico, Germany, and the FSU. I speak Spanish, German, and I'm trying to learn Russian.

I'll also add that I have lived in Europe for a total of 18 years, so I'm pretty familiar with life in Western Europe.

My first wife was German and she didn't really enjoy living in the US. Granted, there is a great difference between Western Europe and the FSU. I have also been to Mexico and I don't find living there much different than the FSU. Of course, I speak the language so that does make it easier on me to get around. Some of the other countries I have visited include: Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, France, Italy, Spain, England, Russia, and Central Asia.

With the type of family ties which are common in these other countries, I am somewhat amazed that many of these women would leave all their family behind without a significant amount of emotional distress. As a result, it is easy for me to understand how some would want to return to the "motherland/fatherland" to be with family again.

The other aspect of this subject is the economic impact retirement has on most people. For the most part, many people have to cut in the cash flow. As an indicator of this I can point to a little place in Central Mexico where a whole contingent of Americans, Canadians, and some Western Europeans are now calling home. They all moved there to live in a warmer climate AND to stretch their retirement funds. Last count there are about 40,000 expats living in the Guadalajara area.

So, with this in mind, it would seem to me that the FSU will be an area to which many Americans may be moving to in the coming years. Therefore, the question regarding the number of people on this forum who are considering or have considered moving there is one which really is of interest to me since I am thinking about this myself.

Any thoughts?.... Thanks

[Bruno]

So, with this in mind, it would seem to me that the FSU will be an area to which many Americans may be moving to in the coming years. Therefore, the question regarding the number of people on this forum who are considering or have considered moving there is one which really is of interest to me since I am thinking about this myself.

The move from US ( or Europe ) to FSU have already begin... not specialy because of foreign marriage but more because business opportunities... FSU seem a poor country but if you have a little capital, it can be enough for start a business... foreign factory grow from ground each day since the low cost of the worker...

Now, for myself, i see FSU like a potential retirement place... i have already search for some little home... by example, i have see a little home, 3 room, big garden, 600 km south of moscow, 15 km from a other big city, in a little village, with water, gaz and electricity... price : 4000 euro... for so price, here, i have a parking place... not yet a garage... of course, if you choose city like Moscow and Kiev, the price of ground can be more expensive that in Paris...

 

[KenC]

Adventurero,

I hear that Costa Rica is supposed to be nice and a good value too.

KenC

[anono]

kenc, you're right, i saw a good documentary about retiring americans buying up new houses in costa rica.

adventuro, see my last post in my trip report about living here. my friend jim naseum just left. most of the conversation centered around living here.

basically the conclusion came down to: we'd be crazy if we didn't.

i do not like making statements i am not completely (positively) able to carry out or back up, but as far as i can say at this moment, if it can be done, i'll be living here in the not too distant future.

it'll save me a lot in airfare as i come here so often as it is anyway.:cool:

what was the topic?  oh, yeah, GCG's. i guess i won't have to be concerned about that if i live here.

jb, i used to live in texas. been a lot of places in texas too. i'll take illinois over texas any day.  not kidding.

and we had a better president than tx could ever hope to produce. gosh, and he was a wig ;-)