Can anyone in Moscow verify this?

[Sculpto]

I have to agree with a lot of what Mishenka has said about the possibility of some type of master plan behind this.  I posted something silly about it the other day, but, the siliness aside I learned to be paranoid about such things when i lived in Mexico and saw what was going on, though on a much smaller scale. 

I doubt Bushwacker came up with the idea.. but I wouldn't be suprised if career intelligence officers developed and promoted the plan and it was finally adopted.  Though, there could easily be something more sinister, I just don't know what.

Regarding the Georgia conflict.. and who started what.. I think you have to go back to when Stalin gave those provinces to Georgia.  If my memory serves correctly Stalin was Georgian.  Artifical borders that divide ethnic populations are a recipe for war.  Kurds come to mind as a particularly relevant current example though there are dozens more around the world.  Ossetians have a right to self determination, Georgia has a right to maintain its recognized borders.  I see this more as a "mouse that roared" scenario more than anything else.  First the little Ossetian mouse roared and Georgia roared back bigger and finally gets caught in the Russian mousetrap.  In the end aid dollars get poured in on both sides of the borders and the corrupt officials on both sides of the borders get to finish the additions on their country estates plus pick up the new black Benz. 

Yeah, I am going to have to keep my mouth shut in Moscow.  I suppose I can imagine what being a dissident might have felt like.. for a week anyway. 

[Mishenka]

If "winning" is leaving US folk crippled with debt - you're "correct" ! ..

"If winning for Bush meant he left his enemies bankrupt so they could not fight a war" he has succeeded.
let's talk about debt. The total National debt is $10.3 Trillion. The National Gross Domestic Product is $14 Trillion. US  Treasury income, $14 trillion  http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/management/budget/budgetinbrief/fy2009/index.shtml

http://www.federalbudget.com/

Current Debt Held by the American public is $6,060,010,376,937.96      
Intragovernmental Holdings is       $4,271,128,623,907.96    this is the budget of the US Government.
Total Public Debt Outstanding     $10,331,139,000,845.92   includes all Americans,plus Government spending.

This has to make us all sick.
When the value of the US dollar recently went up 20% worldwide and your GDP is 14 trillion a year, the value of that money should also go up, right?  Gas prices are down 25% across the country and falling possibly another 25%, oil prices cut in half across the world. Demand is smaller, price smaller, production will also become smaller. All prices will decrease because of this. Inflation will not be a problem. Money is still flowing. The media with their negative "election year" scare tactics have everyone fooled into thinking there is no money. Hello? Where is the money, there is the same amount of cash flowing in the world today as their was yesterday and will be tomorrow. It simply is not moving in the same directions as it was. This money is in different hands.  People are holding on to it.  Does anyone actually know what the balance in the US treasury?  Look at it this way, it would take less than 10 months of GDP to pay off all USA debt. Reasonable? No.  With a short freeze on some government spending, and eliminating unnecessary programs and pork barrel spending,  it could be paid off soon enough. 94+% of the US workforce still at their jobs, while California unemployment rate is high at 7.7%, New Mexico is lost at 4.4 and Texas at 5.1 People are working. Few countries enjoy such low unemployment as USA.  Interest rates are still under 6% for home loans. This talk of recession was started and caused by the media with their scare tactic reports that put fear in people and cause paninc to withdraw funds from banks, stocks, etc. If all was left alone, no fear, no panic, no negative reports from TV news, everything would be much better. With the exception of housing values in the toilet.  This is all about the election year.  Why did the bottom fall out of the housing market? Negative press?  I'm sure all you economics majors out there will be screaming corrections at me.  What's your opinion?
 
Mishenka

[BC]

Mishenka,

Multiply x 5

On 30 September 2008, the total U.S. federal debt passed the $10 trillion mark, for the first time[2], with about $32,895 per capita (that is, per U.S. resident). Of this amount, debt held by the public was roughly $5.3 trillion.[3] Adding unfunded Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, and similar obligations, this figure rises to a total of $59.1 trillion, or $516,348 per household.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

[Mishenka]

Sculpto, its good to be wise when speaking about politics while standing on Russian soil.  I follow Galina's advice when in public, "be silent", this works best. In private we may all speak out against our leaders but we all still love our country.

On the Georgian conflict, some facts are clear. Putin had his eyes on this situation and was planning the "excursion" into Georgia since April. Executed down to the hour and minute almost as it was designed to be implemented. The president of Georgia made some errors in judgement, Russia came in to give him a hard spanking. Far to many people died in the process. One problem with Putin's plan, the West got involved and caused him to fall short of the removing the"powers that be"  He didn't count on the harsh reaction and global condemnation of over use of force. He didn't count on the economic collapse that followed with investors pulling out of Russia. This had nothing to do with US banks or wall street, This was a direct result of the conflict itself, it was only compounded by the drop in oil prices, bank failures and recession that followed. He did OK until the "bottom" fell out of oil prices and must now renegotiate along with gaz prices. I imagine most people work thinking business as usual only to find on payday, their check is half what it was. Russia must take blame for their own economic collapse. It was a result of their actions in Georgia. They can hardly blame the US for the consequences that followed.

Welcome to the new world order.  There is an agenda. I hear it is back to the G7 again as Russia is left out. That doesn't seem to bother them in the least.

Mishenka

[Mishenka]

Mishenka,

Multiply x 5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

Sorry BC I missed that.  multiply what X 5?  Wiki is not a safe source to use for accuracy on any kind of figures. In any caase, they are not audited numbers. It is written by the general public with their slant and opinion. The numbers from the Treasury source are 10.3 trillion is what it is. Of this amount personal debt is $4.3 trillion and government debt is 6 trillion. Total 10.3 in any case, its alarming but also payable when the GDP is $14 trillion a year.

The bail out of AIG for example of $85 billion cost each taxpayer $420
$850 billion cost each tax payer $4200 which is about what this whole mess is going to add up to eventually before its over.

[OlgaH]

Putin had his eyes on this situation and was planning the "excursion" into Georgia since April. Executed down to the hour and minute almost as it was designed to be implemented. The president of Georgia made some errors in judgement, Russia came in to give him a hard spanking. Far to many people died in the process. One problem with Putin's plan, the West got involved and caused him to fall short of the removing the"powers that be" 
Mishenka

Mishenka,

and when the West got involved?  Even CNN reported:

U.S. officials said they warned Saakashvili not to provoke Russia militarily by sending Georgian troops into South Ossetia and they had ruled out any U.S. military action to defend Georgia.

Saakashvili "planned S. Ossetia invasion": ex-minister
Washington had always made clear to the Georgian leadership that it would not support an invasion, Okruashvili added.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSLD12378020080914?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

But now, five weeks after the end of the war in the Caucasus, the winds have shifted in America. Even Washington is beginning to suspect that Saakashvili, a friend and ally, could in fact be a gambler -- someone who triggered the bloody five-day war and then told the West bold-faced lies.

The details that Western intelligence agencies extracted from their signal intelligence agree with NATO's assessments. According to this intelligence information... Saakashvili's plan, apparently, was to advance to the Roki Tunnel in a 15-hour blitzkrieg and close the eye of the needle between the northern and southern Caucasus regions, effectively cutting off South Ossetia from Russia. The intelligence agencies were monitoring the Russian calls for help on the airwaves. The 58th Army, part of which was stationed in North Ossetia, was apparently not ready for combat, at least not during that first night.
Russian troops from North Ossetia did not begin marching through the Roki Tunnel until roughly 11 a.m. This sequence of events is now seen as evidence that Moscow did not act offensively, but merely reacted.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,578273,00.html

[groovlstk]

On the Georgian conflict, some facts are clear. Putin had his eyes on this situation and was planning the "excursion" into Georgia since April. Executed down to the hour and minute almost as it was designed to be implemented.

Some facts are clearer than others, it seems. Putin "had his eye on this situation" in part because Saakashvili campaigned on the promise of retaking Abkhazia and South Ossetia. He would have been foolish not to have such a plan in place. It seems clear now that Putin suspected Saakashvili would ultimately give in to his own foolish vanity and ego, and Saakashvili didn't disappoint him.

One problem with Putin's plan, the West got involved and caused him to fall short of the removing the"powers that be"  He didn't count on the harsh reaction and global condemnation of over use of force.

How did you determine this? Where is your proof that Putin was planning to depose the Georgian government? Throughout this ordeal, the West was completely ineffectual. And what was the aftermath of the conflict? As far as I know, and you may correct me if I'm wrong, not a single sanction was imposed against Russia by the west for this conflict, outside of a joint US-Russian military exercise that was canceled.

[Sculpto]

Anyone remeber the Gulf of Tonkin incident?

Olga my point is media or governmental reports about the readiness of a particular army mean nothing.  The provocations on both sides of the border were going on for some time.  There is plenty of blame for all the players in the conflict from Russia and Georgia themselves to the US and Israel for arming and training the Georgians, to the other Former Soviet Republics who atuomatically sided with Georgia, to NATO and so on ad infinitum. 

What seems to me as being more important at this point is creating a human rights awareness in the entire region that prevents something like this from repeating, and, even more importantly helps the people whose lives were disrupted, damaged, destroyed, regardless of which side they are on, reclaim some sense of normalcy and security.

BTW, this argument reminds me somewhat of the question of who won WW2.  It was not until I became more educated to the Soviet view of history that it even occured to me that the way the history of that war is taught in the US, and I assume in Western Europe, might be in conflict with how the Russians view it. 

[UTRO]

hmmmm, let's get back to the hat discussion shall we?  :kissing:

[OlgaH]

What seems to me as being more important at this point is creating a human rights awareness in the entire region that prevents something like this from repeating, and, even more importantly helps the people whose lives were disrupted, damaged, destroyed, regardless of which side they are on, reclaim some sense of normalcy and security.

Agree.

Armenian minority fear isolation and poverty in Georgia
Tens of thousands of Armenians living in Georgia's Javakh province say their economic problems are being ignored by the country’s government. They warn that bringing about change could be difficult, as many have stopped speaking out, fearing recrimination.

Because of the fear of prosecution, many Armenians in Javakh are afraid to speak their minds.Those brave enough to raise their voices in the past have felt the strong arm of the law.
Video

Do your remember the conflict between Georgia and the autonomous republic of Georgia Adjara four years ago?

[Mishenka]

Some facts are clearer than others, it seems. Putin "had his eye on this situation" in part because Saakashvili campaigned on the promise of retaking Abkhazia and South Ossetia. He would have been foolish not to have such a plan in place. It seems clear now that Putin suspected Saakashvili would ultimately give in to his own foolish vanity and ego, and Saakashvili didn't disappoint him.

How did you determine this? Where is your proof that Putin was planning to depose the Georgian government? Throughout this ordeal, the West was completely ineffectual. And what was the aftermath of the conflict? As far as I know, and you may correct me if I'm wrong, not a single sanction was imposed against Russia by the west for this conflict, outside of a joint US-Russian military exercise that was canceled.

Hi Groov,
true, Putin has his eyes on Georgia for a lot of reasons.  One may be as you mention, two, he is enjoying getting rich on oil and gas revenues. or at least was enjoying it, until prices cut in half. There's nothing worse than going backwards.  How did I determine Putin was planning to depose the Georgian government? proof?  it came right from Medvedev's lips,among others in the Russian military on video and in print on or about the third or fourth day of the invasion.  You can google CNN or some other worthy news clip archive. It's common knowledge Putin wanted and needed Saakashvili out of his way to gain control of Georgia, the 4 pipelines included. Russia wanted to teach Georgia a lesson not to cross Russia and join NATO. They are using the same fear tactic on Ukraine and other FSU countries. It won't work.  Russia did cease fire and no sanctions were needed. However, they lost their place in the G8 who are now the G7, they lost their application for consideration to join the WTO, they lost their face (trust) with important trade partners in the west.  They also lost 1 Billion each year in foreign aid from USA and more from UK and others, ( USA gave 16 billion in the last 16 years).  They lost investors and foreign companies who withdrew  their investment cash, over 18 billion in a weeks time, and more later so Putin had to bail out banks to the tune of 285 billion last count. (correct me if I 'm wrong) investors left town. The Ruble lost more value, was Ru 26.352 to $1 today .  So look a little deeper and you will find more losses, certainly more than just a joint military exercise. The west was actually very effective. One only has to look at where it got Putin today. 1990 Nightmares. I remember, I was there.

It is common knowledge that Putin wants to rebuild the old USSR. It may only be a dream but it is a dream of many. Apparently you did not get the gist of what the European community and Condi Rice had done to force a quick cease fire and withdrawal of Russian troops from inside Georgia. 1 million barrels of oil a day is a lot to protect for the owners, Israel, UK, USA, companies, BP has their own private Army of troops guarding the portions of above ground piplines that flow into the EU marketplace.

My question and reason for posting this thread was, "can anyone from Moscow verify" the news article that I started this thread with? I'm still waiting for any answers from Muscovites who can verify it.  Are the shelves in many of the stores really empty in Moscow? Are people not getting paid? Are suppliers not being paid and refusing to deliver goods?  It makes no sense to me that Russia is sending a fleet of ships along with "Peter the great" to Venezuela for west coast maneuvers if the economy of Russia is 3 months away from collapse. Nor does it make sense that just last week (Tuesday and Wednesday) they launched 3 missiles from their new sub in the North sea as a test to show accuracy, (They hit their target spot on) when they can't afford to pay vendors to keep food on the shelves or money in their banks. Considering a $6 Billion loan to Iceland? Sorry but none of it makes sense.  I understand Putin has just made deals with Chavez to deliver a few jets over the next 10 years but that money won't come in for a decade. There is also a submarine deal with Chavez and one with Indonesia, but again these take years to build and test, so it won't help todays problem.
Mishenka

[OlgaH]

How did I determine Putin was planning to depose the Georgian government? proof?  it came right from Medvedev's lips,among others in the Russian military on video and in print on or about the third or fourth day of the invasion.  You can google CNN or some other worthy news clip archive. It's common knowledge Putin wanted and needed Saakashvili out of his way to gain control of Georgia.
Mishenka

Mishenka, I understand the CNN is worthy news for you with its  "Control over Georgia... to rebuild the old USSR"    "This takes a sick imagination" as Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov said 

The Russian Foreign Ministry officially stated yesterday that it “does not want a regime change in Tbilisi,” but deputy head of the Foreign Ministry’s department of information and the press Boris Malakhov observed yesterday that “Saakashvili’s fate is in the hands of his own people.” The position Russian diplomats repeated in chorus yesterday was that there could be no negotiations with Saakashvili. “What decent person will talk to him now?” Russian Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin asked. Russia’s NATO representative Rogozin told Kommersant that “no one wants to talk to [Saakashvili] now.”

The topic of regime change in Georgian was first raised at a session of the UN Security Council on Sunday. U.S. Ambassador to the UN Zalmay Khalilzad claimed then that Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that Russia’s main goal is to remove the regime in Tbilisi. “‘Regime change’ is an American term,” Russia’s chief diplomat observed. “Sometimes there are cases,” he continued, “when leaders become obstacles to a people’s way out of a situation. In those situations, some leaders make the brave decision in regards to their political future.” In other words, as Churkin implied, Saakashvili should leave office on his own.

A while later, Lavrov stated that Rice misunderstood him.

Rogozin told Kommersant yesterday that a tribunal along the lines of one in The Hague has to be set up to pass judgment on the “aggression, war crimes and ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia.” He was echoed yesterday by Deputy Chief of the General Staff Anatoly Nogovitsyn, who also called Georgia’s actions “war crime.”
http://www.kommersant.com/p1010382/r_1/Russian-Georgian_conflict_South_Ossetia/

[ScottinCrimea]

My question and reason for posting this thread was, "can anyone from Moscow verify" the news article that I started this thread with? I'm still waiting for any answers from Muscovites who can verify it.  Are the shelves in many of the stores really empty in Moscow? Are people not getting paid? Are suppliers not being paid and refusing to deliver goods?  
Mishenka

It seems yet another good topic has been derailed by those who prefer to debate politics.  I'm starting to think it should be renamed the "Russian Political Discussion Forum".

[Sculpto]

Mishenka.. I will verify to the best of my ability in a week.  I would aks my girl about conditions currently but I do not want to get her riled up on politics right now before I go.

Olga.. have you looked at Pravda.ru, or RussiaToday or any of the other media outlets from inside Russia?  I am not saying CNN is great, far from it.. but.. come on now.. pravda is making al jazeera look positively unbiased these days.

[OlgaH]

This is not the early 1990s, when images of bread lines and food shortages were beamed across the world. But small businesses and even some mid-size chains like Samokhval are finding it impossible to get credit or that it is available only at exorbitant rates.

In the case of Samokhval, which has 60 stores in the Moscow area, and Mosmart, which has 54 stores and four superstores, suppliers are refusing to deliver goods because of outstanding debts, distributors said.


Mishenka

Mishenka, you are funny

Some world famous companies and banks become bankrupts because of the world economic crisis 

Just wait for a while may be till the next article about Moscow mass starvation and revolt of the hungry Muscovites 

[OlgaH]

Olga.. have you looked at Pravda.ru, or RussiaToday or any of the other media outlets from inside Russia?  I am not saying CNN is great, far from it.. but.. come on now.. pravda is making al jazeera look positively unbiased these days.

Sculpto I have posted links to the articles.

[Mishenka]

We all know what is spoken in public is mostly for show and not the same as what is spoken behind closed doors.  This is the purpose of this thread, to discover the truth in the situation. I rarely believe or take any news from TV as gospel truth, but when I see dated satellite photos of Russian troops, tanks and ships mobilizing into Georgian territory, they speak for themself, louder than words.  On the other hand, I have friends in Moscow that tell me what this article says is true, others say their life is "business as usual" so each person says something different. One says her phone is tapped, so she can not speak as she thinks for fear someone is listening. another says she speaks her mind and doesn't care if someone is listening. So,, take it for what its worth. I was looking for some consensus.
 

[OlgaH]

As always it is the public who pays the price for its leaders mistakes.
Mishenka

 

October 4, 2008
WASHINGTON -- As the presidential election season nears its climax, there is growing evidence that the country is slipping into the deepest recession in decades.

The latest marker came Friday, when the government reported that employers shed 159,000 jobs in September, far more than expected. That was the worst one-month drop in more than five years and brings to 760,000 the number of jobs that have disappeared this year.

Mishenka, and your worries are about empty shelves in Samokhval and Mosmart's stores in Moscow

[OlgaH]

I rarely believe or take any news from TV as gospel truth, but when I see dated satellite photos of Russian troops, tanks and ships mobilizing into Georgian territory, they speak for themself, louder than words. 

Mishenka, why your satellite did not show you how Georgian troops were killing South Ossetians and burning them alive?

[Sculpto]

Oddly the article that Mishenka posted to start the thread can now be found on pravda.ru.  Given the bizarre nature of the editorial content on that site I am suprised to find it there. 

Olga, I suggest you don't throw so many stones on this lest I remind you about a little place north east of Ossetia and certain atrocities that were committed there and perhaps continue to be perpetrated on a smaller scale though the international press doesn't find it interesting anymore.

One main reason the world reacted the way they did is because of previous Russian action in the region.  The destruction of Grozny certainly didn't involve any innocent people losing their lives did it?

I know you are proud of your country, and with good reason, but there is enough imperialistic history over the last few hundred years to cast legitimate doubt over the most recent events. 

I think it was in a biography of Solzenitzen I read (paraphrased) "Historically when Russia has problems at home they engage in some kind of military action to distract the population from the actual problems"

It would seem the US has adopted the same stupid policy during the last eight years.

2012

[Mishenka]

Mishenka, and your worries are about empty shelves in Samokhval and Mosmart's stores in Moscow

You are forgetting about over 50,000 new jobs each month, or 600,000+ new jobs during 2008,, so lets balance the news and include all the statistics. Things are not as bad as the media reports.

This is an election year, and the democrats control the media, as always, filled with deceit. Take a step back, look deeper, longer, wider, you will see a different picture.

Mishenka

[Mishenka]

Mishenka, why your satellite did not show you how Georgian troops were killing South Ossetians and burning them alive?

Sadly it shows this all to clearly as it travels the Earth 8 times a day, 24 hours a day, taking millions of photos. The infra red camera shows the temperature of the bodies, and can tell how many hours ago a meal was eaten by the temperature of their stomach. With clear precise focus to 16" size object. clearly reads a car license plate.   As they say, A picture speaks 1000 words. This is how we see North Korea dismantling their Nuclear plants, Iran building theirs, and Ru Submarines in the North Sea launching missiles. Other subs rusting in the North sea  at Severodvinsk as they were decommissioned and left to rot. Its amazing what you can see from a mile in the sky. This is one reason USA stayed out of that conflict, watchng as it unfolded. Still,  excessive use of force was questionable. In any case it had its purpose. They learned some lessons in Afghanistan and Chechnya.
Mishenka

[OlgaH]

One main reason the world reacted the way they did is because of previous Russian action in the region.  The destruction of Grozny certainly didn't involve any innocent people losing their lives did it?

Yes, the innocent Chechens were involved as the innocent Iraqis are involved (because of it Chechens feel sorry for Iraqis), and innocent Serbians were involved and died when NATO bombed, and investigation concluded that NATO committed violations of international humanitarian law. We can talk about many innocent people of different nations who were involved.   

You say "the world reacted the way they did" ... and what about the world reaction on the order by Saakashvili to kill innocent South Ossetians, to destroy their homes, schools, libraries,  cultural monuments? Why Western media  first of all showed that Russia invaded Georgia, but they never showed destroyed by Georgian troops Tskhinvali, burnt cars with South Ossetians inside and crying South Ossetians on the ruins? Honestly I don't need answer...

I know you are proud of your country, and with good reason, but there is enough imperialistic history over the last few hundred years to cast legitimate doubt over the most recent events. 

Yes I'm very proud of my country and my people with good reason, especially when the most of Russians supported the decision by Russian Government about events in South Ossetia, they did not sacrifice the life of South Ossetians for the piece of the Western sausage.

Imperialistic history? BTW Georgia was one of other nations that asked Imperialistic Russia for help and was saved by Russia from Turkish invasion, and you should thanks Imperialistic Russia that you are able to find you Russian or Ukranian soul mate in Crimea 

I think it was in a biography of Solzenitzen I read (paraphrased) "Historically when Russia has problems at home they engage in some kind of military action to distract the population from the actual problems"

It would seem the US has adopted the same stupid policy during the last eight years.

Sorry, I could not recall the Solzhenitsyn quote. Did you read his autobiography or his biography that was written by other writer?

Absolutely agree about stupid policy adopted by US 

[Mishenka]

Mishenka, I understand the CNN is worthy news for you with it's "Control over Georgia... to rebuild the old USSR"    "This takes a sick imagination" as Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov said 

 

  yes, forget about the words spoken in public to mislead the masses, and judge only by Putins actions. He does not hide his desire to bring back the old ways of communist Russia, everyone knows this and many support him and many don't. You only have to look to Ukraine, Latvia and Belarus to see that the corruption and interference from the Kremlin is alive and well.  This is not news nor is it a secret. Putin is who he is and makes no apology. How long have you been away from Russia?  Travel to central Asia and tell me it has changed in the last 18 years? No, it is still just as it was before the fall of USSR. No elections, no leadership changes, no democracy, anyone who tries to run for elected office is removed, jailed, beaten and you never see them again. There is no such thing as true democracy in FSU. I seriously doubt there ever will be.

I see the written quote has changed since the video I saw aired on news channels BBC and others around the world.  This quote you just posted here is not what I heard from Medvedev's original news conference. Kavrov may  have "said it differently" later, but I know exactly what I heard him say the first time. it had nothing to do with regime change, what I heard was "he was in the way and he had to go"  You won't hear this on CNN, you hear it on Euro news or Russian news. Medvedev as loose lips. I noticed he has been rather quiet lately.

[msmoby_ru]

hmmmm, let's get back to the hat discussion shall we?  :kissing:

SORRY..

If OlgaH, Mishenka, et al who wish to discuss trance enducing Olga's "soundbites" re Georgia .. I will start a new thread..