Wife split!

[Diplomacy]

Wayne:

I am glad you got a plan going over there.  I was worried about you, doing nothing could get you in a whole lot of trouble. 

[Maxx2]

Came home from work.  Found two keys on table.  One to back door.  Other to the room wife occupied.  Looked in room.  Things were cleaned out. Putting out trash.  Found some papers that might be useful.  Guess the process server caught wife at the house.  Waiting to hear from attorney.

Found some interesting information on the immigaration fraud website:


"Warning signs:

Good but brief relationship before the marriage and a drastic change to the worse after the marriage

After marriage refuses sex except for times when wants something from you (a present, a credit card, separate bank account, etc);

Demands separate living arrangements (different bedrooms or even apartments); separate credit cards and bank accounts;

Very unsatisfied about your social or financial status; demands expensive purchases that she knows you cannot afford; gets angry or violent when refused her demands

Does not socialize with your family or children; treat them with disrespect
Does not invite you to socialize with her friends

Behave in a secretive way; has friends that you find shady or unpleasant


I also add that there seems that many of them push their husbands to marry them quickly and to file the immigration papers quickly.

Also there seems to be little concern about having a showy wedding. I think of Gary's case where he got married in a plain blue shirt with it open for the first two buttons. Why didn't she care about his being not dressed up for such an occasion? How she wanted a justice of the peace wedding instead of a church wedding. Then got into their first argument two days later about him wanting to go to bed before he completing filing out her immigration documents. It was a race to get her immigration process going as soon as she could arrange it. They even stopped by the Social Security office to file for her SS card on the way back from doing the Adjustment of Status at the USCIS.

Another sign is a secretive computer life. Always hiding her internet history and quickly closing down windows when the husband enters the room.

If her friends do not like her husband even though he is kind to them. She maybe telling them stories of abuse, control and neglect so that they will help her when she is ready to leave.

An empty refrigerator and empty food cabinets when he comes home from work when they were stocked when he left that morning. Were her friends over to witness this "evidence" of his starving her? Believe me these tricks happen!"

Wife followed the above score almost to a "t".     

I wrote that Wayne. I had it happen to me almost to a "t". I know how you are feeling 


Maxx

[Maxx2]

Maxx, I was once married to a Ukrainian woman who I met in the States. Although she was already living here, she had yet to receive her green card after marrying me. I called them up and they told me although I'm her husband, they could not release any info to me or talk to me. Guess why and guess who lobbied for rules and laws like that?

1) If a guy like Wayne calls up Immigration, it could be interpreted as an attempt to further harrass his wife and show a vindictive side of him due to a marriage not working out. Sounds good if a guy reports fraud but regardless, a free pass to a green card is DV securing her stay here forever. That is the hand she may play if Wayne is successful in getting immigration to hold her green card.

2) Is it worth Wayne declaring all out war to send her back home at the risk of a DV record? He should stay away from her and let an attorney take care of the situation. My guess is in a court of law, Wayne says she's insincere and soon left him after the wedding and wife says she married Wayne in good faith but he abused her, couldn't stay in the abusive marriage, and he threated to take away her green card unless she came back to his bed as evident of him calling Immigration. Judge says Wayne loses.

I hope everybody reading this thread is better educated and understands how important it is to find a sincere woman vs. a insincere woman, how important it is to get it right the first time unless you like living in hell.

1) I was asked "maybe she will be handcuffed and sent to jail until her immigration trial". My response "Well that's not what am trying to achieve here. I am trying give you information so that you can examine it to determine whether she commited marriage fraud or not". The worst thing a guy can do is to go to the USCIS hot headed and demand that she be deported.

2) No need to declare a all out war. Just go through the steps of withdrawing the sponsorship by sending a letter of such (state why) to the local and Regional service center. Do not tell her about any of this. Leave her immigration documents that are in her possession alone. Make no threats about deportation.  Yes, stay away from her. 


   

[Doll]

maxx, she already got her GC- no need to write to INS

[Maxx2]

maxx, she already got her GC- no need to write to INS

I am not sure if she has her 10 year LPR card or not. It doesn't seem likely due to the shortness of their marriage. If she has a green card it is more likely a conditional 2 year green card. Those have conditions. Namely that they live together in a Bona fide marriage. If they divorce she has to return to her home country within 30 days of the divorce being final. That is why my service center wanted the divorce certificate when I got it. They needed it to send the deportation order out. What will stop a deportation order is an abuse claim. That is why false allegations of abuse come so often after the word divorce is mentioned. The abuse "evidence" from false allegations and charges is what is needed to support a abuse self petition. These are dangerous times for the husband.


Maxx

[dobradavid]

I am not sure if she has her 10 year LPR card or not. It doesn't seem likely due to the shortness of their marriage. If she has a green card it is more likely a conditional 2 year green card. Those have conditions. Namely that they live together in a Bona fide marriage. If they divorce she has to return to her home country within 30 days of the divorce being final. That is why my service center wanted the divorce certificate when I got it. They needed it to send the deportation order out. What will stop a deportation order is an abuse claim. That is why false allegations of abuse come so often after the word divorce is mentioned. The abuse "evidence" from false allegations and charges is what is needed to support a abuse self petition. These are dangerous times for the husband.

Maxx

I agree - the spouse needs to be proactive in an international marriage situation - and pre-nups can be a good way to sort out "sincere" from "insincere". 

[Sculpto]

Sincerity:

How can you ever know if anyone is sincere in their interest, let alone someone from another culture?

There are the little things that I am sure make the difference.  Small details of action and concern that should give a person confidence.  For example, in my case.. I've got a classic American belly.  My girl was very tender about my belly, she rubbed it sweetly and so on.. but then after a few days she said.. "I worried you will have heart attack, I will to help you lose fat, you will to eat my Russian food I make for you and not to eat bad American food".  If she wasn't sincere probably she would want me to have the heart attack LOL.

Expectations and disappointment:

I think this is a giant risk.  A while back when I was in a tight money situation a different girl, from Tashkent, I was corresponding with, asked me for $50.  At the time she asked I really didn't have $50 to spare and told her so.  She did not believe me so I went through the trouble of explaining the cost of living to her.  Sure, I bring home thousands every month, and that particular month every single penny and then some was accounted for.  Her response, "So $50 is not much for you, who you don't give?"  I ended that correspondence shortly afterwards because it became clear to me she would never understand and would more than likely end up disappointed, if she wasn't a gold digger to begin with.

The Ukrainian girl I was hanging around with over the summer here in SF, from Kiev, arrived in USA with GC which she had acquired by going through the process in Kiev, ended up VERY disappointed here.  She has a degree in Ukrainian Lit and was working as the manager of a furniture store in Kiev.  After 6 months here of struggling to survive she started to become very depressed.  Well, I would also.. in Kiev she had her own apartment, worked 14 days on 7 days off, had money to go to clubs, shopping or eat out and so on.  She had a hard time adapting to the five day work week.  She was shocked at the cost of living.  She was totally surprised that she would have to re-educate herself to be competitive in this market to get a job equal to what she had n Kiev.  Now, in this example the girl came here on her own.  Imagine the same scenario with a woman who came here for a marriage.  It would put enormous pressure on a marriage and would take an exceptional man to be able to do damage control and keep his woman on the right track.  How many of us are hardwired for such a difficult task?

With the girl from Kiev I knew she was not sincere very quickly.  How?  Well, her actions proved it.  She was never concerned about how much I spent on her and more was always better.  We would go someplace to eat and she would order a lot and then not eat anything and take it home.  She never offered to kick in anything, even after it was obvious we would not become romantic and we continued to hang out as friends.  (Which I chose to do for the purpose of self education and frankly from boredom)  She was inconsiderate about the use of her phone when we went out by engaging in a lot of long conversations in Russian and never explaining anything, but, getting agitated if one of my friends called and I had a conversation on my phone.  Once when in the car and I was talking with a client she cranked up the radio really loud.. think she was mad?  When I introduced her to friends she was just short of rude, mostly just withdrawn, including when I took her to a dinner party where I knew there would be a woman from Odesssa who has been in the USA since 1991.  (Friend told me afterwards she was not a good girl)  When we hung out with her Russian and Ukrainian girl friends I would often hear "americanski" and they would all start laughing and look at me.  "Yeah the stupid American took you to Beni Hana and you have all the food ina doggy bag so we can eat it later after he is gone".  I understood well enough what was going on.  Insincerity, even as a friend.  "Choose your friends for what they can do for you, not because you actually like them."

Nevertheless I feel that being able to see the difference between Miss Kiev and my current GF helped me to be able to feel more certain the my GF is sincere.

Ok, sorry for the rambling post.. and Wayne, congrats on the first step in getting your life back.  You will become a better person for all that has happened to you.

[Maxx2]

I agree - the spouse needs to be proactive in an international marriage situation - and pre-nups can be a good way to sort out "sincere" from "insincere". 

I know one Green Card Girl who got advice from her boyfriend on what she would ask her fiance to put into the pre-nup. She asked for and got that in the case of a divorce she would be able to live in his home for a year. After all when her boyfriend told his wife he wanted a divorce he would also need a place to stay. So she set her husband up with false charges. Got him arrested and then got a restraining order on him. The boyfriend moved in with her and her husband of eight months had to rent another place. He had told his son before he married her, "If there is one that really loves me, has to be Yelena!" He came from Ukraine and spoke the language, knew the customs and so on. She was an actress and could cry on cue.

BTW a pre-nup does not always sort the sincere from the insincere. It is the Green Card and a start of a new life that is of paramount importance to a GCG. Beautiful Russian women here in the States will not want for company and they know it. There was a joke website once called www.RecycledRussianbrides.com that illustrated this. 


Maxx 

[Sculpto]

How does a pre-nup prove a woman is sincere?  I suppose if you are a millionaire and need to protect your assets its one thing.. but for an average guy like myself what good would it do me except to possibly put a negative feeling on a possible marriage before things have really had a chance to develop.

[ScottinCrimea]

Some here seem to think that a pre-nup is a safety net to protect them from the consequences of rushing into a marriage with a woman that they don't know well.  If she doesn't turn out to be the fantasy woman that you envisioned, you can just send her back, keep all of your assets and roll the dice again.  I don't have a pre-nup, have never had one and never will have one.  It's just not how I approach love and marriage.  If we do split and she takes half, she probably deserves it for putting up with me.  Call it a stupidity tax.

[Maxx2]

Some here seem to think that a pre-nup is a safety net

They seem to work in protecting assets but have no effect on DV charges. What guys forget is that there is usually some rather big legal costs when that happens. Usually in the ten's of thousands of dollars. Pre-nups give a false sense of security.


Maxx   

[William3rd]

and prenups can be set aside in many jurisdictions. And I see a DV charge as going to duress.

[dobradavid]

BTW a pre-nup does not always sort the sincere from the insincere. It is the Green Card and a start of a new life that is of paramount importance to a GCG. Beautiful Russian women here in the States will not want for company and they know it. There was a joke website once called www.RecycledRussianbrides.com that illustrated this. 
Maxx 

I agree...but it immediately sorts out those who are thinking "property, money" after a divorce.

[dobradavid]

How does a pre-nup prove a woman is sincere?  I suppose if you are a millionaire and need to protect your assets its one thing.. but for an average guy like myself what good would it do me except to possibly put a negative feeling on a possible marriage before things have really had a chance to develop.

If a women is marrying you for "you" - or even for any material aquired AFTER the marriage - then a standard pre-nup excluding pre-material assets, spousal support, etc. in the event of a divorce will not be an issue. Alll a "fair" pre-nup does is give an FSU wife the same rights she wouild have under slavonic law in the FSU. If she has trouble with this...you have a problem.

[dobradavid]

They seem to work in protecting assets but have no effect on DV charges. What guys forget is that there is usually some rather big legal costs when that happens. Usually in the ten's of thousands of dollars. Pre-nups give a false sense of security.

Maxx   

They "work" by sorting out the women who are thinking "post-divorce" before the marriage.

[dobradavid]

and prenups can be set aside in many jurisdictions. And I see a DV charge as going to duress.

Pre-nups are set aside when they do not comply with the existing law.

[BC]

Ya know.. with probably a zillion prenupt posts over the years we have yet to see what one looks like with a RW and what it contains.

Much ado about nuthin new.

[Maxx2]

Dobradavid, William3rd is an experienced immigration attorney that tells it like it is. I have talked with a number of immigration attorneys over the years and most say the party line. That is until they talk too much and then say some rather revealing things about their clients motivation. William doesn't do this. What William and I am trying to tell you is that a DV charge, which is VERY likely if a divorce happens before she gets her LPR card, will be used by her as proof that she was under duress when she signed the document. This is how it works. She goes the DV route. Goes to a shelter and gets their legal help. They groom her to look abused. She suddenly speaks no English. Needs an interpreter. Then tells lurid stories of abuse in court in a PTSD monotone. She gets a conviction. Then all this is replayed in divorce court when she argues that her husband threatened her with deportation while holding a gun to her head unless she signed the pre-nup.  

The other thing I am trying to say is pre-nups do NOT sort out women who are thinking "post-divorce". Most of these women are looking for a Green Card. That is why they are called Green Card Girls around here. They can always find another man to marry or live with and they know it. Take the woman you are involved with. You feel rather lucky to have such a woman right? Well some other guy here in the States would feel rather lucky (providing she is relatively reasonable) to have her "post-divorce" or maybe even "pre-divorce". A pre-nup does nothing to stop all the other damage that usually comes.

Good luck.


Maxx  

[Chicagoguy]

For me the pre-nup is mostly about protecting enough assets to leave my older children and grandchildren. We are not planning on having any of our own. Her daughter is an adult and remaining in Russia.

I believe if it is fairly drawn up and she has her own attorney and intrepreter it should be OK. My intention is not to punish her in advance. She isn't even here yet but understands and agrees.

[BC]

For me the pre-nup is mostly about protecting enough assets to leave my older children and grandchildren. We are not planning on having any of our own. Her daughter is an adult and remaining in Russia.

I believe if it is fairly drawn up and she has her own attorney and intrepreter it should be OK. My intention is not to punish her in advance. She isn't even here yet but understands and agrees.

They say that possession is 9/10ths of the law and when walking up that aisle she has ya by the nuts anyway.. so prenupt or prenut.. same same

[Faux Pas]

They say that possession is 9/10ths of the law and when walking up that aisle she has ya by the nuts anyway.. so prenupt or prenut.. same same

Very true

[ScottinCrimea]

They "work" by sorting out the women who are thinking "post-divorce" before the marriage.

A reasonable man ccould and should do this sorting before the engagement even takes place.  If you're still doing the sorting at that point, you best stay single.

[William3rd]

Pre-nups are set aside when they do not comply with the existing law.

The law changes more often than you think. . . your prenup must be in compliance at the time it is interpreted by a judicial proceeding and it may well not be. . .

[dobradavid]

International divorce a murky pit

The laws governing European marital breakups are anything but unified.

http://tinyurl.com/55nsbb

[Wayne]

Can the married people think back to their AOS interview.  Did the official ask any questions about the marriage relationship?

What evidence did you bring?  Present?  What did the official ask for?

Did you have photographs, letters, bills, etc?

Our AOS interview for the 2 year GC took place 5 months after the wedding, in Detroit.  The official, a middle aged woman who spoke with a Mexican accent, did not ask any questions concerning the marriage relationship.  Wife could not understand what official was saying.  Official asked the exact questions from the AOS form, such as:  Are you planning to over throw the government.  Are you a terrorist?  Etc.

Wife had copies of electric and gas bills with her name added; and bank account.  Wife brought many photographs of us together and other papers.  Official did not ask for any evidence.

We had an exchange student from Ukraine staying at our home.  Student came with us to the AOS interview.  Student is almost fluent in English and also speaks Russian, Ukrainian and German.  She is 16.  Wife offered that student could translate the questions for official and translate back the answers from wife and daughter.  When official learned that student was a 16 year old exchange student, she said she had to speak with her manager.  Official came back saying that the translater had to be a USA Citizen and at least 18 years old.  Student was sent to waiting room.  Official said a new interview had to be set with a proper translator.  After talking a few minutes, official was gone for about 10 minutes, then came back with student.  Official instructed student to raise her hand and swear to translate properly.  Then, student did the translations.  Like I said before, the questions were limited to the exact questions on the AOS form and no other.  I was expecting to be asked questions about the marriage relationship--but none were asked!  I would have told the truth to any questions asked of me.  I really did not know what was going to happen and I expected that the truth would come out the the green cards would be denied. 

Official approved the green cards with the condition that a letter that she typed and printed out would be signed by the country health department showing that wife had started taking the antibotics for the latent TB.  Wife took this letter.  I assume she took if with her when she went to the health department and returned it within 30 days of the AOS interview. 

So I ask does this seem right?  Did the official follow the proper proceedures?  It seemed like the official was in a hurry to go to lunch and just wanted to end the interview for her convience.  I was extremely nerveous the whole time and asked to use the toilet room in the middle of the interview.