Wife split!

[AnastassiaAsh]

I agree Groovlstk, and probably the most important is "perhaps most of all consistent in his ability to deceive himself." Why do such situations keep coming and coming? Because somebody lets them! In both emotional and financial way. For some it takes only one time to be fooled to stop and change something within them, for others it can take several times and for some it will never end...

[Sculpto]

I didn't mean to be so definitive in offering a different explanation.  But, I just remembered how my girl was posing for me and taunting me a lot with innuendo and suggestiveness with a terribly devious look on her face.  I could see how that might confuse some men who are not accustomed to women who are not passive about their sexuality.

[Maxx2]

Contrary to what some might think, I also believe that people on this board do not automatically side with the man in this situation.

No, mostly the men are put on the defensive. They are blamed for being conned. The reasons why,

1) To boost to their ego that they were smart enough to avoid such trouble. Many times they are just lucky.
2) Man haters, both women and men. Usually had daddy, brother or ex-husband problems. "Hating" can range from full bore hate to just irritation with men.
3) RW sisterhood solidarity types.
4) Men with misplaced chivary.
5) They're GCGs!!
6) Men married to women who are GCGs in heart.
7) The Male need to strut to impress the women on this forum by sounding wise and show they are lovers of womankind. 


Maxx

[Misha]

No, mostly the men are put on the defensive. They are blamed for being conned. The reasons why,

The problem is that invariably many such men prior to being conned would not have heeded any warnings and rushed headlong into a relationship doomed from the start arguing valiantly that they were the exception or that ALL Russian women were traditional and inherently superior to AW, etc.... 

[groovlstk]

The problem is that invariably many such men prior to being conned would not have heeded any warnings and rushed headlong into a relationship doomed from the start arguing valiantly that they were the exception or that ALL Russian women were traditional and inherently superior to AW, etc.... 

Maxx's stories about men who get conned always have at least one common element: the men never bothered to take the time to get to know the women they were marrying. Most of the men seem to admit this as an aside when they tell their stories, but overall they prefer to think of their misfortune as random, like being struck by lightening.

I can completely understand their behavior in the aftermath of tragedy, and Maxx's passion in defending them.

What I do not understand is that despite prominent, sobering examples like Wayne, Gary, Maxx, and the hordes of others who've told their stories publicly, new guys put the very same blinders on and get engaged to pretty strangers after a week or two together, strangers with whom they can barely communicate with. It's like they read and learn a lot from RWD about scammers and red flags and pick up a lot of logistical tips, but when it comes to behaving rationally in the presence of a pretty woman - forget it, most men might as well be pimply teenagers who can't be expected to do much more than get dad's car home in one piece after his first date.

[Misha]

What I do not understand is that despite prominent, sobering examples like Wayne, Gary, Maxx, and the hordes of others who've told their stories publicly, new guys put the very same blinders on and get engaged to pretty strangers after a week or two together, strangers with whom they can barely communicate with.

And, not only the new guys. Based on what I have read from Wayne's posts, if his marriage were to be magically annulled today and he could file for another K1 (or whatever they are called in the United States), he would repeat the same pattern all over again.

most men might as well be pimply teenagers who can't be expected to do much more than get dad's car home in one piece after his first date.

LOL. Pretty much.

[Maxx2]

Maxx's stories about men who get conned always have at least one common element: the men never bothered to take the time to get to know the women they were marrying. Most of the men seem to admit this as an aside when they tell their stories, but overall they prefer to think of their misfortune as random, like being struck by lightening.

I can completely understand their behavior in the aftermath of tragedy, and Maxx's passion in defending them.

What I do not understand is that despite prominent, sobering examples like Wayne, Gary, Maxx, and the hordes of others who've told their stories publicly, new guys put the very same blinders on and get engaged to pretty strangers after a week or two together, strangers with whom they can barely communicate with. It's like they read and learn a lot from RWD about scammers and red flags and pick up a lot of logistical tips, but when it comes to behaving rationally in the presence of a pretty woman - forget it, most men might as well be pimply teenagers who can't be expected to do much more than get dad's car home in one piece after his first date.

Wayne was involved with her for years. I for six visits and about 3 months face time over a year and a half, many many phone calls, e-mail letters etc. From what I gather from the rest most spend as much time as most of the men here including those with successful marriages with their future (ex) wives. One fellow I know with a successful marriage of 8 years married his wife a week after her met her. Most of the week before the marriage was working on getting all the permits in Russia and lining up ZAGS with a bribe presented to them by her parents. In other words they got engaged before he met her. Pure luck in my opinion that their marriage worked out. 

The only common factor I find with men that get burnt is their naivety in their knowledge of GCGs and how they operate. Most it scarcely crosses their minds that this could happen. There are exceptions to that rule as well. That is why I try and enlighten these guys.


Maxx

[Misha]

In other words they got engaged before he met her. Pure luck in my opinion that their marriage worked out. 

Even when you play Russian roulette it does not mean that you will be shot each and ever time, but when you do the results are messy...

[groovlstk]

Maxx, you might have made six trips and Wayne may have "courted" his wife for four years, but both you and Wayne knew doodly squat about the women you were marrying. There is no excuse for what a GCG does to a man, yet to say that the man bears no responsibility for his fate is as silly as Wayne cussing out the consular officer in Moscow for delaying his wife's visa and then, a few years later, blaming the USCIS interviewer for not knowing his marriage was a sham and handing his wife a green card. I could write a thesis on this and it would be ignored, misunderstood, and taken out of context, but here it goes, anyway. With apologies to mathemeticians here, a simple formula for disaster is Lonely Western guy + desperate FSU woman = trainwreck.


First, to be fair, you and Wayne (and guys like Gary, et al) could never have gotten to know your wives prior to marriage as well as "normal" couples because your wives made it a priority to hide their true selves. Yet what's apparent from reading about events prior to all of these trainwrecks is that the women are always as cold as ice, indifferent, and do little more than go through the motions once they've flashed a winning smile, spread their legs, and shown a minimum of interest in the men courting them. She'll keep up this half-hearted effort for the length of courtship, with flashes of warmth whenever a gift arrives or a vacation is offered. This occasional affection is just enough to keep the man's self-deception machine running smoothly. She'll send a daily SMS or by-rote email every few days, but it's funny how she often has an excuse as to why she can't talk on the phone as often as you like, isn't it? At this point it's obvious to everyone except the man that she has little interest in him and he's chasing the moon - but that pretty face and the occasional scraps she tosses his way are enough to keep him committed. And since she's 5000 miles away, the friends and family who could see them together and instantly note the lack of chemistry are useless until it's too late.

Once she arrives in the US, she feels more secure and can shed some of those annoying pretentions she had to adopt to help fuel her fiance's self-deception. That's when she starts sleeping in another room -  doing this during courtship on her own soil would have been too risky, but she's emboldened, now. She has her own friends, and contrary to what Wayne thinks - that she has told her friends lies about what a terrible guy he is - she has in fact been perfectly honest with her friends. The reason they're cold to him is that they understand his wife's motivation and tacitly support her. They may not go around ruining people's lives for gain like she does but they don't judge her for it, and getting to know Wayne might stir some uncomfortable feelings of sympathy once she lowers the boom on him, so best to keep him at arm's length. (I wish I could say my opinions about this subject were shaped by reading discussion boards, but I dated women like Wayne's wife and saw things from both Wayne's side as a potential mark and later when I unwittingly dated some RW who were unhappily married to US men.)

Bottom line is that the signs are always there in boldface, yet to paraphrase the Bible, there are none so blind as those who will not see. Guys who hook up with GCGs attribute these signs to cultural differences and bend over backwards making excuses for their women.

I make no excuses for women who take advantage of lonely and naive men, they're the scum of the earth. But to create this impression that men all over are vulnerable to their charms and that those of us who managed to marry good women were simply lucky - or that we're headed for the same fate as you and Wayne someday - is mean-spirited poppycock. GCGs aren't Oscar-winning actresses and their talent is nothing more than a pretty face. 

[Sculpto]

Groov.. stand up and take a bow.. really well written post.

I think what often gets overlooked on the forums are the numbers of women who end up scammed by western men.  Whether it is the casual sex tourist or even more sinister types of scams the reality is it happens to women also. 

There is a guy I know of who is a complete control freak and very demanding sexually with girls he has recently met.  He has made several promises of K1 but never followed through and always finds some "excuse" to get rid of the girl.  He is going to meet a woman in Ukraine later this month.  Through a grapevine I have heard that the woman is already completely aware the guy is pretty much of a jerk, yet, this woman is still onboard with meeting him.  Anyone care to speculate how that might turn out?

[Misha]

Bottom line is that the signs are always there in boldface, yet to paraphrase the Bible, there are none so blind as those who will not see. Guys who hook up with GCGs attribute these signs to cultural differences and bend over backwards making excuses for their women.

That sums it up pretty nicely.

[OlgaH]

Bottom line is that the signs are always there in boldface, yet to paraphrase the Bible, there are none so blind as those who will not see. GCGs aren't Oscar-winning actresses and their talent is nothing more than a pretty face. 

This story that I would like to tell you happened with one of my friends in Russia.

He, a Russian man, married a Russian woman with a 10 y.o. child. Before marriage they lived together for 2 years side by side day by day. We, who knew him looking at the couple were thinking  what a nice match they were and she was so lovely. After three years their marriage came to divorce.  She, trying to get his apartment in the center of the city decided to put him in jail and accused him of sexual abuse of her daughter. After forensic psychologist examinations her 13 y.o. daughter finally admitted that it was her mother who taught her what to say and how to say. 

I can tell that any Oscar-winning actress could be envious of that woman's talent.

[William3rd]

"GCGs aren't Oscar-winning actresses and their talent is nothing more than a pretty face. "

Nope- you are wrong on this account. Many are, if not award winning performers, skilled and accomplished liars, who would stop at nothing to achieve their goals.

[Maxx2]

Groovistk, I never said "that a man bears no responsibility to his fate". I call it "cause and effect" not "justice". Does a woman deserve to be date raped if she misjudges a man's character? What's that Russian saying? "A man marries his fiancee not his wife." People can put up a front for years if need be. I talked to a former cop of 13 years a few hours ago. He knew the dark side of human nature. Yet he married a GCG who was hiding from him that she was still married to her previous husband. She pulled the routine on him when he was getting suspicious of her background on a few things she let slip after she married him. She was sure quiet about it before. A few years after their annulment he married another woman. He had visited her many times over a course of two years and kept his cautious eyes wide open. He found out only after he married her that she had a snap temper. She would say the must cutting cruel things to him. Some RW are like that. However she cools off quickly. The lesson from this is he had no idea what she was like until after he married her. Another guy I know is a divorce attorney. He knows the dark side of relationships conniving women and so on. He got fooled by his foreign bride and went through it with her. Another guy an immigration attorney well versed in false charges for a green card. He too got burnt by a GCG wife.

The signs are NOT in bold face. To suggest state that they are is dangerous to men in the process. I am sure Groovistk you will come back at me with fire and insult from your offended pride. Just keep the straw man arguments and hyperbole to the minimum OK?  


Maxx

[Maxx2]

I can tell that any Oscar-winning actress could be envious of that woman's talent.

Mine could cry on cue. Tears roll down her face. Snot run out of her nose. Face all puffy, quivering and shaking and clutching my arm as she said she was going to miss me. Yet at the the same time working a deal with the agency owner about getting some of his friends in America (The Davis's ) to take her to her new life after she dumped me... Meryle Streep in "Sophie's Choice" would have been give TWO Oscars for a performance like that.

Maxx   

[Misha]

He had visited her many times over a course of two years and kept his cautious eyes wide open. He found out only after he married her that she had a snap temper. She would say the must cutting cruel things to him. Some RW are like that. However she cools off quickly. The lesson from this is he had no idea what she was like until after he married her.

Many is how many? Three, maybe 4? Probably stints of a week or two. In that time, how much time did he really spend getting to know her? Talking to her?

[Vaughn]

... a simple formula for disaster is Lonely Western guy + desperate FSU woman = trainwreck.
<BIG snip>...
 GCGs aren't Oscar-winning actresses and their talent is nothing more than a pretty face.

I heartily agree with Sculpto - groov, this post deserves archival prominence. Despite my
sympathy for the duped sponsor, there comes the time to face the mirror and ask oneself, "Did
I really do all I could to know her as well as I should have?"

A lady's devotion comes with no warranty. We best make damn sure we have overwhelming
confidence in her character before even thinking of marriage.

Mine could cry on cue. Tears roll down her face.

Maxx, a woman in grief tells little to me, except that she's upset, or acting so. If I wedded every
lady who ever looked my way with tears in her eyes, I'd have rice-marks all over my face. It simply
isn't a credible indicator of sincere intention.

[Maxx2]

Many is how many? Three, maybe 4? Probably stints of a week or two. In that time, how much time did he really spend getting to know her? Talking to her?

He is semi retired and spent months at a time over there. I remember him e-mailing me in the Autumn saying he was going to be out of the country until Spring and with her. How many of the winners here spend such blocks of time with their future wives? Few.


Maxx   

[Maxx2]

There is not much hope for this thread.

[Misha]

He is semi retired and spent months at a time over there. I remember him e-mailing me in the Autumn saying he was going to be out of the country until Spring and with her. How many of the winners here spend such blocks of time with their future wives? Few.

Maxx   

The quantity of time in itself is not the only indicator. Did they share a common language? Did he really spend the time to get to know her as a person?

[Maxx2]

The quantity of time in itself is not the only indicator. Did they share a common language? Did he really spend the time to get to know her as a person?

I wasn't there but she spoke good English.

I know another fellow, actually several, who are from the FSU. Moved over here when teenagers or adults. They of course know the language and customs. They got fooled also by GCG wives from the old country.   

So it gets down to a top ten list :

1)  Speak Russian fluently.
2)  Immerse yourself in Russian customs and history.
3)  Study criminal psychology and NLP.
4)  Have a lot of dating experience with wild women.
5)  Do a detective's back check and surveillance on her and her friends and family (they might be in the plot).
6)  Spend many months there
7)  Put her through various tests and trials without her knowing you are.
  Watch her reactions when she thinks you are not looking.
9)  Tap the phone
10) Hire a RW detective to befriend her and send you reports. Similar to 5 but more extensive.

Or forget the above list and convince yourself you always know what is deep inside a woman's mind and of her friends' and family.


Maxx

[Jet]

He is semi retired and spent months at a time over there. I remember him e-mailing me in the Autumn saying he was going to be out of the country until Spring and with her. How many of the winners here spend such blocks of time with their future wives? Few.


Maxx   

Maxx,
With all due respect, and not trying to stick up for anyone else, this doesn't answer the question asked. When I talk to guys about "getting to know her" I'm not talking about a month long vacation in Egypt - that ain't getting to know her. I usually suggest paying attention to how she acts when she thinks nobody is looking; not parading around on their best behavior; picking a fight to fully understand what to expect when a real fight comes; paying attention to quality and quantity of friends; watching how she treats her family and how her family treats her; asking "uncomfortable" questions (and being ready to answer the same - honestly); trusting their "gut" when something seems "off" but they just can't put their finger on it. This is the essence of getting to know someone, and you can spend 10 years with somebody, but if you don't learn to pay attention, you still won't know them.

regarding winners,
Was my wife "exactly" the person I thought she was when she arrived? NOPE, but there weren't any big surprises either, because after the carelessness and naivety we both displayed up to our initial meeting, I'd like to think I spent my time and resources wisely, and payed attention (as did she). We got to know each other, and a big part of that was understanding with near certainty, her motivations. Could divorce be in our future? Anything is possible, but if it is, it will be for the reasons that AM/AW couples usually divorce after a period of years, and not because we don't know each other or because she got what she wanted out of her "mule" and is searching for the bigger better deal.

[Admin]

There is not much hope for this thread.

I suppose it depends on what you "hope" for Maxx. What is it that YOU hope for?

- Dan

[Misha]

I wasn't there but she spoke good English.

Okay, then there are other factors at play. My guess is that she was 20-30 years younger. She made him feel young and he was so enamored that he had such a beautiful woman on his arm...

[OlgaH]

Despite my sympathy for the duped sponsor, there comes the time to face the mirror and ask oneself, "Did I really do all I could to know her as well as I should have?"

... how much time did he really spend getting to know her? Talking to her?

So, how many times people should spend together to know each other better and what they should do to know each other better?

Groovistk's first meeting face to face  with his lady was in May 2006 (about 8 days) and in June(or July) 2006 during his second visit she accepted his proposal (if I'm wrong please correct me and I give my apology in advance for confusion) My story is almost similar to AnastassiaAsh's story - "married a man who I met only once and that was the only AM I met". Wayne knew his wife (or thought that he knew her or at least were trying to know her better) since 2005... I also posted a story of my friend.

Do we have exact formula for the time of spending and acting together and "checking" each other as an indicator of success in knowing each other better and more over knowing the person's real intentions and thoughts?   We try to deduce such formula, or just general thesis (it is not bad, it is very good and can be very useful) but it is just impossible to apply it to every case.