Wife split!

[Misha]

I never dated any girl if I knew she smoked.  Wife did not smoke but she says that about 6 months before coming to USA she started. 

Wayne, this is very unlikely. People rarely start smoking in their thirties. You never did answer my question: how much time did you spend with your wife in Russia?

[Sculpto]

Nobody (I suspect) will argue that there are not heinous behaviors on the part of some RW. At the same time, most rational persons would acknowledge that there are equally heinous behaviors - arguably MORE heinous, in fact - on the part of some WM.

The key is balance. Do you believe your position/bias in this topic is balanced Maxx?

- Dan

Dan, you just hit the nail right on the head.  Maxx is so obsessed with what happened to him and "protecting" others from a repeat that he has lost a real perspective.  In the overall percentages the GCG and even the "traditional scammer" are almost statistically irrelevant.  And, when compared to the crap American women pull, well, the risk of running into a GCG is not enough to stop me.

[Faux Pas]

Dan, you just hit the nail right on the head.  Maxx is so obsessed with what happened to him and "protecting" others from a repeat that he has lost a real perspective.  In the overall percentages the GCG and even the "traditional scammer" are almost statistically irrelevant.  And, when compared to the crap American women pull, well, the risk of running into a GCG is not enough to stop me.

Bullshat. Maxx learned a hard, cruel, invaluable lesson and has a unique perspective you cannot begin to fathom. He is doing a very valuable service to many men that need such help and unable to find it elsewhere. I can only imagine the hurt and helplessness some of these guys feel. For the men that were used in such a manner it would equate to emotional rape. Some of it brought on by the men themselves and some of it not but the end result is often the same. You owe Maxx an apology IMO.

[William3rd]

It isn't obsession-not when you get to experience everything from elder abuse, child abuse/neglect, false arrest and other similar depredations heaped upon you and your loved ones by some disingenuous spawn of hell. . . .

To listen to some of these platitudes from some of you . . . when you don't know jack of what you speak.

Tell it to your child when he finds out his new step-mom only mistreated him because she never really liked him, that he was part of the ticket for her to get a green card and his family be damned. . .

Maxx knows exactly what he is talking about and most of you are not qualified to even speak on  this subject. As for the correct "perspective", adhering to the characteristics of blind sheep walking toward a cliff is not my idea of a perspective

[OlgaH]

Maxx is so obsessed with what happened to him and "protecting" others from a repeat that he has lost a real perspective. 

Sculpto I think you are mistaken about Maxx's obsession because I have different perception of Maxx's posts  , and I agree with Faux Pas about Maxx's valuable service.

Yes, these women are deceiving men, yet are the men not also deceiving themselves? 

Gator,

there is a fine line between "deceive oneself" and "trust somebody"

For example a RW says that she is short of money, AM, who already spent time with her offer her to take some money from a debit card that he gave her. With some her excuses, that give the man impressions she really feels uncomfortable using his money, she takes some money from his card. Question is can  the man, sitting in his home in US, be 100% sure that she did not spent his money for a new outfit trying to impress other man with whom she is going to have a nice time?   

Does he trust her or simply deceives himself dismissing any doubts?

IMO any relationship should begin with trust... 

[groovlstk]

Bullshat. Maxx learned a hard, cruel, invaluable lesson and has a unique perspective you cannot begin to fathom. He is doing a very valuable service to many men that need such help and unable to find it elsewhere. I can only imagine the hurt and helplessness some of these guys feel. For the men that were used in such a manner it would equate to emotional rape. Some of it brought on by the men themselves and some of it not but the end result is often the same. You owe Maxx an apology IMO.

If my best friend decided to visit Russia tomorrow and I could pick three men he should speak to for advice before leaving, one of them would be Maxx. We may differ on the causes and the best way to warn guys who are new to this venture, but I have no illusions about the damage a GCG can inflict on a man's life.

[William3rd]

If my best friend decided to visit Russia tomorrow and I could pick three men he should speak to for advice before leaving, one of them would be Maxx. We may differ on the causes and the best way to warn guys who are new to this venture, but I have no illusions about the damage a GCG can inflict on a man's life.

admirable post!!!

[felix8787]

Why is it that what Maxx does is an obsession? Someone who gives information on protecting one self from fraud and deceit.
Would we be so reluctant to a woman who got raped and she advocates to protecting one self (a woman) and tell her to let it go?

[Gator]

Gator,

there is a fine line between "deceive oneself" and "trust somebody"

For example a RW says that she is short of money, AM, who already spent time with her offer her to take some money from a debit card that he gave her. With some her excuses, that give the man impressions she really feels uncomfortable using his money, she takes some money from his card. Question is can  the man, sitting in his home in US, be 100% sure that she did not spent his money for a new outfit trying to impress other man with whom she is going to have a nice time?   

What do I mean by "deceiving one's self?"  There are several examples. 

-  To believe all the agency hype that by being an American one is naturally better than a RM and exactly what a RW seeks.

-  To be so optimistic that one assumes all the unknowns will somehow work themselves out favorably.

-  To believe that one can compensate for what he lacks in youth, virility and good looks merely by being a nice guy.  Charm, money, sense of humor and intelligence can compensate, but being a nice guy does not.  I think RW respect strong, protective, decisive men (who do not necessarily give everything that a RW wants).  They do not respect nice guys who submit to all of their demands.

-  Several posters have expressed another example - to dismiss questionable behavior as nothing more than cultural deviation.  Misha brought up a good example - endless communication.  The lack thereof is indeed a sign that the woman is not into you (or worse, she is banal and boring  :hairraising:).  How could Groovlstk and his wife spend hours and hours each week on ICQ unless they found each other very interesting?

In your example about trusting her with money, I went against the guidelines and actually gave money generously to RW (two) when I felt headed on a path to marriage.   I was generous on purpose - to give them enough rope to hang themselves.  I discovered both were careful and honest with money and did nothing to take away my trust (but not yet my blind trust). 

[OlgaH]

I know you prefer to think of GCGs as the devil incarnate, but if you scratch the surface a little you'll see that it's not easy for a woman to pretend to love a man for an extended period of time. Prostitutes do it for a few hours - but only with money up front. For GCGs and girls who simply want a better life and hope to fall in love with their sponsor, it's easy as pie via email. It's more difficult maintaining that facade during the first date, when Romeo makes his first trip. It's even more difficult when spending a week together in Egypt.

groovlstk,

prostitutes sell their service and they more honest about it, they let you know about price that you should pay for service in advance.

GCGs are swindlers, and as any swindler they count on trust and feelings of their clients and understand that they must be very trustworthy  Their game is "I will be for you what you want I to be till time when I get from you what I want"

I would not advice man to count so much on the first date during a week, because of the situation of newness that very often can play not less part in delusions, more over it is much easier for a woman (and also for a man) to pretend to love during vacation time at the resorts or just staying at hotel when the atmosphere of romanticism and the absence of some "irritants" that can be at home is very helpful in a love delusion creation. 

[OlgaH]

I think RW respect strong, protective, decisive men (who do not necessarily give everything that a RW wants).  They do not respect nice guys who submit to all of their demands.

Gator in general I agree with you about what you wrote, but there is different type of RW, and there plenty RWs, especially among youngest generation, who respect and love a nice guy because he has money, expensive car and can satisfy all their demands, and they will not worry to much about his sense of humor and intelligence and even age.

A man also can deceive himself thinking that she respects and loves him because he is a strong, protective, decisive men with a good sense of humor and so on, when she from her side "respects" and "loves" him just because he has a blue passport.     

[Gator]

Gator in general I agree with you about what you wrote, but there is different type of RW, and there plenty RWs, especially among youngest generation, who respect and love a nice guy because he has money, expensive car and can satisfy all their demands, and they will not worry to much about his sense of humor and intelligence and even age.

Good point, but most of them are not RW.  They are RG ("G" for girls).  I had no experience with RG.  Even if I had tried, they would have ignored me (and to be frank, they would have bored me).  I never did understand the RM's focus on RG when there were many interesting RW.  Yes, a tight body is nice to look at, but how much time does a man spend looking?

A question for you Olga (assuming you would somehow know something about GCGs even though you are not one).  What type of young dyev were they?  Did they fall for the RM with "money, expensive car and can satisfy all their demands?"  Somehow I doubt that they chose "sense of humor and intelligence"  over the former.  And now that she is older (many RW consider a 30-yo RW as old) and no longer the first choice of RM with money, she turns her sights to America.

I do not know the answer about what type of life the typical GCG led in her young dyev days.  I wonder if you do.  Or do they come from all backgrounds and now are simply so desperate that they are willing to do anything to alter their plight?  What is the persona of a GCG?

Perhaps William3rd has a reasonable clue.  He mentioned how GCGs run in packs.  I have noticed that my wife has made several RW friends in her short time here, and most seem happily married to their original American husband.  One is divorced and calls my wife a lot even though my wife largely avoids her.  She has invited her to the house only once when she brought her son, the same age as my wife's son. 

[Misha]

What type of young dyev were they?  Did they fall for the RM with "money, expensive car and can satisfy all their demands?" 

My wife likes to read the forums online on odnoklassniki. We were going through some of the topics last night, and one that came up was "Money or Love." Most of the women posted that given a choice, they would prefer to be with a man for love. A handful said love AND money. I didn't read one that that preferred money to love.

[OlgaH]

My wife likes to read the forums online on odnoklassniki. We were going through some of the topics last night, and one that came up was "Money or Love." Most of the women posted that given a choice, they would prefer to be with a man for love. A handful said love AND money. I didn't read one that that preferred money to love.

Here is a poll "Money or Love"
23.33% chose money, among them are women and men as well.
http://otvety.mail.ru/question/16321699/opros/?pg=1

Gator, I'm cooking right now I will give my answer later 

[Misha]

Here is a poll "Money or Love"
23.33% chose money, among them are women and men as well.
http://otvety.mail.ru/question/16321699/opros/?pg=1

Gator, I'm cooking right now I will give my answer later 

And 76.67% chose love. By far, the majority.

[OlgaH]

And 76.67% chose love. By far, the majority.

and it is a positive fact, but... 23.33%  people who prefer money to love exist and we will hope it this percentage will not grow 

I never did understand the RM's focus on RG when there were many interesting RW. 

Gator, it is unfair towards RM to say such things about all RW. I have noticed that the intelligent RM's focus more often on interesting RW  than on RG.

Yes, a tight body is nice to look at, but how much time does a man spend looking?

I think AM who are married RW in her early 20s will give their objective answer 

A question for you Olga ...

There is no need to be a shell game artist or his victim just to know about shell game tricks. 

People who use other people for satisfying their own needs exists in this world from time immemorial. IMO GC girls and also boys (Robert and I had the "honor" of meeting 50y.o.GC boy) are the such type of people, only their need is US residence.

"What type of young dyev were they"? I think usually the same that they are now, but some of them become much craftier.

I have my favorite place in my city, a coffee house. Almost every day I spent some time in that coffee house with my friends. It is not a big room and tables are placed very close to each other, so you unwittingly hear a conversation of other people. There were a jolly company of 5 young girls-students (18-20 y.o.), appears that they also preferred that coffee house for their meetings, and every time when I saw them their noisy conversation was the same - "what night club they visit, what presents they get from their "darlings", how many "darlings" they have, how much their darlings love them and spend money on them and so on".  I know nothing about background of that girls, but honestly I doubt the girls'  views on life  will be totally changed after 10 years.


 

[Sculpto]

Bullshat. Maxx learned a hard, cruel, invaluable lesson and has a unique perspective you cannot begin to fathom. He is doing a very valuable service to many men that need such help and unable to find it elsewhere. I can only imagine the hurt and helplessness some of these guys feel. For the men that were used in such a manner it would equate to emotional rape. Some of it brought on by the men themselves and some of it not but the end result is often the same. You owe Maxx an apology IMO.

I never said Maxx isn't providing a valuable service.  In fact I am SURE he is and I have read with great interest every word he has posted, and, I have huge sympathy for what he endured.  However, I see a tone in his postings and a suspician that is so great that I feel he is missing the forest for the trees.  I know something about obsession and I know how it can cloud ones persepctive.

Once I had a girlfriend who cheated on me.  She was sex addict and did it for along time before i figured it out.  Did I become obsessed with exposing every cheater on earth?  No.  did I go through an emotional upheaval that caused me to refrain from involvement with women for 6 years?  Yes.  I know what pain feels like, but, I am not going to let what happened in the past stop me from achieving happiness in the future. 

At the end of the day we ALL live in the world WE create.  The girl I am dating now might be unstable and i might choose to ignore it or think that I can "fix" her.  If she takes advantage of a situation that I created for her who is to blame?   On the other hand maybe I am unstable and she will choose to ignore it until she can't take it anymore.  If she leaves me then who is to blame?  For that matter, why blame anyone?  Life is full of upheavals and disappointments and triumphs and happiness.  Without one the other would be meaningless. 

So, I am sure as men searching in another country for something we can not find at home if we do not take extra precautions to begin with and we allow ourselves to be sucked into things we are not sure about and we ignore the small details and we delude ourselves into complacency and end up hurt and destroyed why do we point fingers at the so called GCG?  We enable them to do what they do. 

So, do we just go with Darwin?  Or, shall we enforce a new code of ethics that somehow forces people from trying to dominate each other?

[Vaughn]

We enable them to do what they do.

That was the point I put on the table here, but I have to admit that when knowledgable
men such as Maxx and William swear there exist some actresses with the skills and patience
to defy any detection, there likely is no hope for some men in at least a few cases.

Still, I believe in a greater number of examples, there were likely flags that were either
ignored, denied, rationalized away or selectively overlooked. And of course, "getting to
know a woman well" takes on a multitude of meanings for different guys. I was really
knocked out by Gator's statement that he intentionally overfunded two ladies so as to
allow either to "hang themselves" at his expense - but in his own future interest. 

[Mishenka]

My question to the forum is, are they really  RED flags or just cultural differences that we are not yet aware of in a new relationship?  How do we know or judge the difference?

[Russiangirl]

 
Nobody (I suspect) will argue that there are not heinous behaviors on the part of some RW. At the same time, most rational persons would acknowledge that there are equally heinous behaviors - arguably MORE heinous, in fact - on the part of some WM.

I wonder why the high priests of anti-GCG cult (Maxx, OlgaH) never seem to mention the regrettable fact - many more RW are hurt in relationships with WM than vise versa. Even the best of WM - the decent, honest, reliable kind - sometimes end up hurting the girls badly, just because the differences are too great and the obstacles to common ground too many...

The balance of power is tilted severely in favor of WM. This also may explain the disproportionate number of excrements of society - from control freaks to sex tourists to child molesters - who pray on foreign women & kids, from Philippines to Russia to Thailand.

If we looked at total numbers of RW who had their hearts broken -

* thousands of women "courted", bedded, then discarded,

* thousands of would-be-fiancees dumped at various stages of the process while the man with a "back up plan" cut a swath through many "prospects",

* many failed K1s who returned home to the ridicule and pity of neighbors, family, friends, and co-workers because their guy decided he didn't want to marry after all, (worse yet for those girls who foolishly severed the ties with their old life only to be kicked out on the street like a no longer wanted pet),

* wives who had to withstand years of mental abuse from their paranoid husband, his friends, and in-laws silently or openly accusing them of being GCGs, (and by the way, the fastest way to kill love is to accuse the one who loves you of being a GCG),

* wives who suffered idiotic husbands who threatened to "ship them back" as if she were a parcel, not a breathing living feeling human being,

* women who were unlucky enough to get involved with drecks of society unable to find a local woman to spit in his direction, or with a control freak whose own insignificance can only be soothed by sadistic emotional (sometimes physical) torture of those weaker,

* women who were really unlucky and got involved with con artists who swindled them of all their money and property (e.g., made wife sell her apartment in Moscow, "invested" and "lost" the money, then divorced her),

* women who are being used by opportunistic bankrupt husbands to help pay alimony to his ex, child support to his kids, and his ever increasing debts,

where do I stop counting?... the numbers of RW who were humiliated, used, lied to, cheated on, and emotionally scarred from their relationships with WM are thousands upon thousands... And when you compare these multitude of vulnerable women with a few rotten apples - "GCGs" - and the few WM who got hurt - it's not even funny.

There's such a huge disbalance here, and yet, we find some posters cultivating the scare of "Oh My God! the Russian GCGs are coming!", so utterly focused on a small sub-set of problematic RW/AM relationships, while completely ignoring the other side of the picture...

You know what, I get Maxx. I understand where he's coming from, even though I do not agree with his crusade.

I firmly believe he's hurting more than he's helping - those few normal decent guys who could have been happy, but won't, because even if they were lucky enough to find a compatible woman and overcome the multitude of language and cultural differences, if they listen to Maxx, they will break her heart and exhaust her patience by their suspicions.

There're enough obstacles on the road to happiness for international marriages - but lets heap on more, by inciting paranoia over GCGs, or by hiding the ugly truth of a mirror ("GCG") being blamed for a man's shortcomings...   

[Admin]

I wonder why the high priests of anti-GCG cult (Maxx, OlgaH) never seem to mention the regrettable fact - many more RW are hurt in relationships with WM than vise versa. Even the best of WM - the decent, honest, reliable kind - sometimes end up hurting the girls badly, just because the differences are too great and the obstacles to common ground too many...

The balance of power is tilted severely in favor of WM. This also may explain the disproportionate number of excrements of society - from control freaks to sex tourists to child molesters - who pray on foreign women & kids, from Philippines to Russia to Thailand.

If we looked at total numbers of RW who had their hearts broken -

* thousands of women "courted", bedded, then discarded,

* thousands of would-be-fiancees dumped at various stages of the process while the man with a "back up plan" cut a swath through many "prospects",

* many failed K1s who returned home to the ridicule and pity of neighbors, family, friends, and co-workers because their guy decided he didn't want to marry after all, (worse yet for those girls who foolishly severed the ties with their old life only to be kicked out on the street like a no longer wanted pet),

* wives who had to withstand years of mental abuse from their paranoid husband, his friends, and in-laws silently or openly accusing them of being GCGs, (and by the way, the fastest way to kill love is to accuse the one who loves you of being a GCG),

* wives who suffered idiotic husbands who threatened to "ship them back" as if she were a parcel, not a breathing living feeling human being,

* women who were unlucky enough to get involved with drecks of society unable to find a local woman to spit in his direction, or with a control freak whose own insignificance can only be soothed by sadistic emotional (sometimes physical) torture of those weaker,

* women who were really unlucky and got involved with con artists who swindled them of all their money and property (e.g., made wife sell her apartment in Moscow, "invested" and "lost" the money, then divorced her),

* women who are being used by opportunistic bankrupt husbands to help pay alimony to his ex, child support to his kids, and his ever increasing debts,

where do I stop counting?... the numbers of RW who were humiliated, used, lied to, cheated on, and emotionally scarred from their relationships with WM are thousands upon thousands... And when you compare these multitude of vulnerable women with a few rotten apples - "GCGs" - and the few WM who got hurt - it's not even funny.

There's such a huge disbalance here, and yet, we find some posters cultivating the scare of "Oh My God! the Russian GCGs are coming!", so utterly focused on a small sub-set of problematic RW/AM relationships, while completely ignoring the other side of the picture...

You know what, I get Maxx. I understand where he's coming from, even though I do not agree with his crusade.

I firmly believe he's hurting more than he's helping - those few normal decent guys who could have been happy, but won't, because even if they were lucky enough to find a compatible woman and overcome the multitude of language and cultural differences, if they listen to Maxx, they will break her heart and exhaust her patience by their suspicions.

There're enough obstacles on the road to happiness for international marriages - but lets heap on more, by inciting paranoia over GCGs, or by hiding the ugly truth of a mirror ("GCG") being blamed for a man's shortcomings...   

I've made no secret of the fact I too think Maxx presents an imbalanced perspective. At the same time, I find myself wondering what objective source you have for making such claims as; "the numbers of RW who were humiliated, used, lied to, cheated on, and emotionally scarred from their relationships with WM are thousands upon thousands... And when you compare these multitude of vulnerable women with a few rotten apples - "GCGs" - and the few WM who got hurt - it's not even funny."

Your claim is there is a disproportionate number of RW who are harmed relative to the AM that are harmed. How do you arrive at that conclusion? Do you have an objective source?

I am not necessarily disagreeing, but I sure would like to see objective evidence.

- Dan

[OlgaH]

I wonder why the high priests of anti-GCG cult (Maxx, OlgaH) never seem to mention the regrettable fact - many more RW are hurt in relationships with WM than vise versa.

because it is thread about Wayne's problems and he is not only AM who has experienced such problems.

If you want to talk about thousands RW who were hurt in relationships with AM you are free to start a new thread or continue in the thread "American Tears of Russian Wifes"
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7727.msg138412#msg138412

[Mishenka]

Sadly, all to often the evil ones scheme and prey on the foolish. We can make list a mile long of those on both sides who have been hurt more than once in relationships.  So many feel taken advantage of. Do we really understand until it happens to us?  Let's walk a mile in their shoes before making a judgement.

[LEGAL]

I count my blessings everyday that I met fell in love and married Olga.  I also thank those who gave me good advice. I truly am a blessed man to have such a loving caring wife, my soul mate Olechka. 

[Russiangirl]

Your claim is there is a disproportionate number of RW who are harmed relative to the AM that are harmed. How do you arrive at that conclusion? Do you have an objective source?

I am not necessarily disagreeing, but I sure would like to see objective evidence.

- Dan

It's simple math. Look at the ratio of women registered on dating sites and with agencies vs. a much smaller number of WM. Ratio of women vs. men on "dating tours" by sleezy operators. Ratio of K1 visas promised vs. K1 visas received. The number of failed K1s when girls return home without marriage - most are because the man refused to marry (culturally, a woman is more inclined to try and go ahead with the wedding even when she has doubts, because it's a social suicide for a woman to be dumped right before the alter).

How many of internet international dating cases end up in marriage? Not very many. How many then end up in divorces? Still fewer. How many of those divorces were because the wife was a GCG and not because of everything else that could have gone wrong - again, still fewer.

Simple math dictates that many more RW are hurt during the international "courtship" process than AM who were unlucky (or more often, blind enough) to marry a GCG.