Bribes and Corruptions

[daveyj]

Although I'm still a relative newbie to learning about the FSU, it seems that one of the big differences between the CIS states and the Western countries is the judicial system (or lack thereof)

I've heard a number of stories about the prevelance of bribes, and indeed the social acceptance of them. 

I noticed that the police only seem to pull off modern expensive cars to "check papers" and never seem to pull over the crappy Lada's etc.

I'm curious to hear about experiences from present or former locals, or from Western men who encountered this?

[Shadow]

I do not know where you noticed this, but the reverse could be true.
Modern expensive cars could be driven by people who are 'contacted' high enough for the police to lose their jobs.
The 'normal' cars would be a much better target.

[daveyj]

Noticed it in St.Pete's, which is the only place I've visited

Was also told that if I'm out at night, and am asked for my papers by the police and told they want to check me for "narcotics" then I should hold my passport, cellphone, wallet and all money in my hand while they check me.  Otherwise any loose cash in my pockets might disappear.

[Shadow]

I do not know the situation in St Pete, however what I saw in the past in both Moscow and Kiev was that most militia had an aversion against stopping the fast driving black Mercedes and Jeeps. 

As far as a narcotics check, I think you should not get in to a place where that happens anyway...

[Lily]

Although I'm still a relative newbie to learning about the FSU, it seems that one of the big differences between the CIS states and the Western countries is the judicial system (or lack thereof)

I've heard a number of stories about the prevelance of bribes, and indeed the social acceptance of them. 

I noticed that the police only seem to pull off modern expensive cars to "check papers" and never seem to pull over the crappy Lada's etc.

I'm curious to hear about experiences from present or former locals, or from Western men who encountered this?

daveyi, with this question you are right in my shop a big part of my job that I am doing for a big international company in Moscow consists of persuading our business counterparts of a higher corruption risk to sign our anti-bribery agreements Having signed these, our partners undertake liability for any behaviour that may lead to liability for bribery. If they fail to disclose to us the cases on non-compliance, we contractually reserve some additional rights. So Lily's job is a very little but particular input in improvement of the situation

Well, you are quite right about general tolerance or even acception of bribery among general public. Russians are often not just asked to bribe. The instances where a person is simply put in the situation where bribery is just the only acceptable way out, or it is wrapped in a form of facilitation payments, or payments for some kind of unneeded extra services, are more often to notice.

What is especially pity is that sometimes honesty is a privilege of rich and strong, while poor or weak just have no choice.

[groovlstk]

I'm curious to hear about experiences from present or former locals, or from Western men who encountered this?

One thing you'll want to get past as quickly as possible is an inclination to moralize or a sense of indignation when you read about or experience this stuff.

[GoodOlBoy]

Bribery and corruption in Russia?? You are joking? It starts when you land at Sheremetyevo International Airport and ends when your leaving Sheremetyevo International Airport.

[ScottinCrimea]

Although I'm still a relative newbie to learning about the FSU, it seems that one of the big differences between the CIS states and the Western countries is the judicial system (or lack thereof)

I've heard a number of stories about the prevelance of bribes, and indeed the social acceptance of them. 

I noticed that the police only seem to pull off modern expensive cars to "check papers" and never seem to pull over the crappy Lada's etc.

I'm curious to hear about experiences from present or former locals, or from Western men who encountered this?

daveyj, there is corruption and bribery in ALL countries.  The form may be different and it may be more transparent in some countries than others, but it is there nonetheless.

I think in the FSU it is more prevalent at the lower levels of society and in the lower levels of government, but at the higher levels, even with what little the media chooses to share with us, it is obvious that both are rampant in the US and I'm not sure that it is any better or worse than in the FSU.

One feels it more in the FSU because it has more of a direct effect on day to day activities, but the indirect and longterm effects of corruption at the higher levels are no less impacting.

I agree with groov that one has to use caution with is jumping to judgement whether morally or otherwise.

[Shadow]

daveyi, with this question you are right in my shop a big part of my job that I am doing for a big international company in Moscow consists of persuading our business counterparts of a higher corruption risk to sign our anti-bribery agreements Having signed these, our partners undertake liability for any behaviour that may lead to liability for bribery. If they fail to disclose to us the cases on non-compliance, we contractually reserve some additional rights. So Lily's job is a very little but particular input in improvement of the situation

And do these cases include the hiring of 'lawyers', 'company advisors', 'accountants' and similar staff ?

[daveyj]

The following link from www.transparency.org displays the 2008 "Corruption Perceptions Index".  http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2008/cpi2008/cpi_2008_table

You will note that Russia is rated at 147th out of 180 countries with a score of 2.1 out of 10. In contrast the US is tied for 18th at 7.3.

Furthermore, most of the countries that are perceived as more corrupt than Russia are underdeveloped 3rd world countries with small population.

I used the Wikipedia population #'s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population
and of the 23 countries with a population greater than 50million, Russia ranks 22nd on the PCI.

The bottom five are:
2.3  Pakistan   165m
2.3  Iran         71m
2.3  Phillipines  90m
2.1  Russia      141m
1.7  Congo      63m

Considering its population and corruption rating, it seems reasonable to conclude that there are few countries in the world which are home to MORE corruption than Russia.

Elsewhere on this board there is a 25 page thread raging about the ethics of the actions of a recently married FSUW.  Throughout this board there are discussions about scammers/ scamming agencies etc.   

It has been said that the mindset of a scammer is that if you let yourself get hustled, then it is your own fault. Surely the corrupt environment of the FSU must bear some responsibility for the attitude?

Yet, thus far in this thread no-one has offered any specific examples of their personal experiences with bribery and corruption.

Hmmmmm....??

***

Allow me to be clear - in my originating post I did not jump to judgement, nor do I scorn the FSU or its citizens for the prevelance of corruption. 

To the contrary, I think Russia has had a tough 100+ years of questionable leadership, going back to the bizarre antics of the the Rasputin era at the beginning of the 20th century.

Rather I began this thread because if I'm going to marry someone from a foreign culture then I don't think I can truly understand them (love them?) until I understand the environment from which they have come.

ps.  I repeat my earlier invitation for specific personal experiences with corruption or bribery, whether from FSUW or from the WM who have journeyed east to meet them.

[Lily]

And do these cases include the hiring of 'lawyers', 'company advisors', 'accountants' and similar staff ?

In a few cases, hiring of auditors may be included. For instance, our partner has to undertake a clear system of accounting, and should be prepared to let us have an insight into their books. If and when our party would like to review their books related to our business, and the counterpart would not want let our employee to inspect these, an external auditor sworn to confidentiality would be invited. In this case, a question of sharing or not sharing the audit expenses arises

[Shadow]

In a few cases, hiring of auditors may be included. For instance, our partner has to undertake a clear system of accounting, and should be prepared to let us have an insight into their books. If and when our party would like to review their books related to our business, and the counterpart would not want let our employee to inspect these, an external auditor sworn to confidentiality would be invited. In this case, a question of sharing or not sharing the audit expenses arises

Nice diversion 

As the husband of a RU financial professional I have information in just how businesses are dealing with keeping systems alive while at the same time avoiding the possible difficulties of denying. The connections are important there, as you might know.

But the whole matter is too complicated, and would probably go far beyond what most Western people could comprehend.

[daveyj]

Here are three instances of corruption/bribery I experienced in my recent visit:

1.  Traffic pull over
My pick up from the airport was by van, sent by the apartment company.  While driving in we were flagged over by the police as a routine stop.  After checking papers, the police officer took my driver into a small telephone sized police booth for about 30-60 seconds.

Since I couldn't see them, I have no direct knowledge of what transpired in that one minute.  But since I clearly didn't speak Russian, it seems to me that any discussion they wanted to have could have taken place in plain sight.  Unless of course there was something the police officer didn't want me to see.

2.  Bribe for  return of lost keys
Midway through my visit I ate dinner at a VERY nice restaurant.  We're talking about what would have been a 10000+ rubles dinner.  My date's face went white as a sheet when she saw the menu prices, and at her insistance we had merely drinks and a desert and then left.

When we left,  like a moron I left the keys to my apartment on my chair.  (i had taken them out of my pocket to get my wallet)

Upon arriving home I realized exactly what had happened, and telephoned the restaurant.  They told me that the keys had been given to the head of security who had placed them in the safe and then gone home.  Since he was the only one who could open the safe, it would be an "inconvenience" for him to return and perhaps I could be so kind as to pay for his time?

I agreed and headed back to the restaurant.

Upon my arrival, the manager took me into a small room and told me that my keys had been found outside the restaurant by a taxi driver, and that they would now call him to bring the keys and perhaps I could pay him a small "finders fee" of 1000 rubles?

There was no mention made of the previously provided story about the head of security/safe/etc.

I agreed, and the manager went out to "telephone" the taxi driver, leaving me in the small room.  The driver must have been very close to the restaurant because 2 minutes later the manager returned with my keys and I paid the 1000 rubles.

Keep in mind that this was an upscale 5 star restaurant, so this process was effected with silky smooth charm

3.  The Russian "911"?  Prepare for looks of shock

There was a third event which I am not at liberty to discuss in specific detail.  I mention this because I ended up filing criminal charges with the St.Petersburg police, and the case is outstanding.

The process of trying to call the police was entirely surreal - one of the most bizarre experiences of my life. 

In trying to ask various people what was the russian equivalent of "911" I was greeted with confused, shocked, frightened looks.  The concept of calling the police for assistance is apparently entirely foreign to the Russian mindset.

Eventually, after much effort, I travelled to a local police station with the aid of a cab driver, a $50 "tip" to the police officer, and a charming police translator who reminded me of Dr.Ruth I was eventually able to put the slow moving Russian wheels of justice in motion.

In closing I say this to any Western man meeting a Russian lady in Russia...

Innocently ask them what is the Russian equivalent of "911", so that you know how to call the police if you have an emergency.  Ask the question, and give some thought to the response you receive.

[groovlstk]

Daveyj,

I have no doubt you've honestly documented your experiences above. There are guys here who will rib you for being a bit naive and some will even blame you for "allowing" Russians to take advantage of you. I'm not one of them. Guys here bemoan the rude Americans, the sex tourists, and the Winston Wus who ruin our collective reputations among Russians, yet there are plenty of Russians who do precisely the same thing in the opposite direction.

The real test for a Western man is not whether he can come to terms w/his experiences when he's been rooked, or overcome his bitterness and avoid moralizing. The real test is this: can he have a serious relationship with an intelligent Russian woman who acknowledges and deals with such crap on a day to day basis yet still loves her homeland? Will he point out again and again how rare it is for someone to bribe a cop in his homeland, or will he learn to shut up when he sees how ferociously she defends her country and understand that this is something she can come to terms with without your preaching? It's not easy, but it's an important part in maintaining harmony, particularly when she arrives and feels homesick.

[Shadow]

1. Traffic pull over

As I previously said there is probably no vehicle on the road in Russia that fits the rules.
For instance, your driver and yourself might not have been wearing seat belts.

The real thing is that while it is very common, being a driver requires paying taxes. Now the militia had to give only one look to understand the situation, and he can give the driver a chouce between starting a tax investigation or a simple ticket payment.
Guess which one is chosen ?

2. Bribe for return of keys

First of all you take your dinner to a place that (at least the eyes of the managers) you can not afford.
I doubt you left them the Amrican a standard of a tip.
They probably recognized you on return, which is why you got away with a mere 1000 Rubles. The original story would have cost you more, but they still remembered.

3. Alarm number

In the most emergency services only Russian is spoken.

Fire Rescue: 01

Militsia (Police): 02 or 164-9787 (for foreigners)

Medical Care (government): 03

Information about casualities: 278-0055

International phonecalls (order): 077

Exact time: 060

Train Schedules: 055

Information Line: 326-9696 (24h) or 09 (only russian) or 050

24h pharmacy: 311-2077

Lost & found: 278-3690 (Zakharevskaya ul., #9; open: mon-fri 10-17)

This took me 10 seconds. It would be advised for anyone to check this while preparing for a trip.


As groovlstk pointed out, it is part of the daily life in Russia and it is based on simple but effective principles.
Either you go the official way and take a lot of time, or you pay money and take the shortcut. There is always a choice.

[Lily]

The real thing is that while it is very common, being a driver requires paying taxes. Now the militia had to give only one look to understand the situation, and he can give the driver a chouce between starting a tax investigation or a simple ticket payment.
Guess which one is chosen ?
 

Taxes? what particular taxes do you mean? The traffic police does not do anything with taxes.

Either you go the official way and take a lot of time, or you pay money and take the shortcut. There is always a choice.

Exactly.

[Blues Fairy]

1.  Traffic pull over
My pick up from the airport was by van, sent by the apartment company.  While driving in we were flagged over by the police as a routine stop.  After checking papers, the police officer took my driver into a small telephone sized police booth for about 30-60 seconds.

Since I couldn't see them, I have no direct knowledge of what transpired in that one minute.  But since I clearly didn't speak Russian, it seems to me that any discussion they wanted to have could have taken place in plain sight.  Unless of course there was something the police officer didn't want me to see.

It's customary for the cops to ask the delinquent driver to sit in the police car or enter their booth while the violation documents are being filled out.  Cops like to take their sweet time when doing the official paperwork and it's one of the reasons why it's easier/quicker to offer to "just pay the fine on the spot".  If they didn't take 30-45 minutes of my time but just gave me the ticket which I could pay by mail, I wouldn't have been tempted to pay bribes.  

[Shadow]

Lily as a business woman who not only has to deal with bribes and corruption in the business world and the real world let me ask you a simple question.  How can Putin and Medvedev possibly expect the the European Union, the US, Canada and the other western countries to take them seriously when it is well known that bribery and corruption are an integral part of the Russian way of life in government and business?  The news media, even the Russian news media, cover this topic on a regular basis.  Do Medvedev and Putin just expect to keep taking bribes, get rich and retire to Switzerland?  At best these two are well dressed thugs and extortionists, at worst they put Bush and Cheney to shame.

Poker, bribery is present in Europe and the US, and the amounts are probably not smaller. The main difference it that it is less visible on the street and 'normal men' are not involved in it.
Dutch police officers have to reach their 'quota' of writing tickets to earn their bonus. Is that better as a militia skipping paperwork and adding his income ? Can you really take a Dutch police officer seriously in giving the right priorities to a time consuming investigation over writing parking tickets when his income depends on the latter ?
In order to stop bribery as being common, one needs changes to society, but that has nothing to do with the society as a whole being bad. Provide the militia with a good source of income, a fast way of doing paperwork and they will change. Provide citizens with the possibility of getting the services they need by legally paying extra, and they will not need bribes.

Russia is not the only country, and not the most developed country, where people take bribes. The difference between Russia and Western countries is that Russians do not have the fake indignation of people who would like to accept bribes but have no way of doing so. The 'second economy' is much more accepted and open in Russia as it is in the Western world, but that does not mean it is more present.

[I/O]

The 'second economy' is much more accepted and open in Russia as it is in the Western world, but that does not mean it is more present.

Shadow: That is missleading and IMO a very inaccurate assessment. I have never tried to paint the West as all clean, but corruption is simply not on the same level at any level as it is in Russia. The suggestion that corruption in Russia is on parity with the West maybe a nice sentiment but it is not very realistic. I guess if you consider Mexico or Peru the West, then maybe..........................

I/O

[Shadow]

Shadow: That is missleading and IMO a very inaccurate assessment. I have never tried to paint the West as all clean, but corruption is simply not on the same level at any level as it is in Russia. The suggestion that corruption in Russia is on parity with the West maybe a nice sentiment but it is not very realistic. I guess if you consider Mexico or Peru the West, then maybe..........................

I/O

I/O I may be more cynical due to my personal experiences.
In this country if a large building contract is tendered, the offer will go to the one that has 'pleased' the deciding committee the most. Government support goes to those areas where friends of people dividing the support are in the lead, or where people discharged for inadequate behavior suddenly land. You can see that as something different, I see is as similar corrupt.
If you feel that corruption is only present when it is evading rules, lets pass a law in Russia that militia can speed up procedures by direct payment. That will solve the problem at once.

[Lily]

Lily as a business woman who not only has to deal with bribes and corruption in the business world and the real world let me ask you a simple question.  How can Putin and Medvedev possibly expect the the European Union, the US, Canada and the other western countries to take them seriously when it is well known that bribery and corruption are an integral part of the Russian way of life in government and business?  The news media, even the Russian news media, cover this topic on a regular basis.  Do Medvedev and Putin just expect to keep taking bribes, get rich and retire to Switzerland?  At best these two are well dressed thugs and extortionists, at worst they put Bush and Cheney to shame.

 

Poker, you flattered me indeed with this simple question.   My expertise does not really go that far.

If I get you correctly, you asked me how can Putin and Medvedev expect a number of countries to take them seriously when the situation is like this? My apologies to you, but I am not neither Mr Putin nor Mr Medvedev. More than that, I am not even their employee to be able to talk for them. You might want to write them a letter if you want. Or eventually address Russian public service responsible for that.

Sorry I don't think that I could provide a correct answer on why the head of state think like this, given this and that.

On a personal note, I don't understand a lot in politics. I just know what I have to know in order to exercise my job.

[Blues Fairy]

How can Putin and Medvedev possibly expect the the European Union, the US, Canada and the other western countries to take them seriously when it is well known that bribery and corruption are an integral part of the Russian way of life in government and business?

Because they are sure the Western world will take Russia seriously as long as it is has military muscle and oil to excercise political pressure in the territories within its reach.  Cleansing corruption is infinitely more perilous for them than using it to stay in power and secure their profits, even at the risk of the world taking them slightly less seriously.

[OlgaH]

How can Putin and Medvedev possibly expect the the European Union, the US, Canada and the other western countries to take them seriously when it is well known that bribery and corruption are an integral part of the Russian way of life in government and business? 
 

 I remember the time in Russia before Putin, when corruption was in its blossoming, it was absolutely impertinent and undisguised corruption in every sphere and I also remember the first changes and reports about discharges and arrests of officials.  In 2008 200 mayors and heads of region administrations and 117 heads of municipal education administrations were criminally responsible. 23,000 criminal proceedings were instituted against officials in the first six months.