Why does she need an escape plan if you're such a nice guy?

[Enot]

There is quick, and then there is meeting for a few days and starting to fill out the K1 paperwork before the week is over quick In many ways I am quite happy that it is difficult for a Canadian to successfully sponsor a spouse and her gain permanent residency.

If at least the men and women were more critical in the process. How many posts have I read here where the men shrugged off behavior and comments from their fiancées that should have sent them running  to the hills? How many women have unrealistic expectations that their fiancé clearly won't be able to satisfy, yet they push ahead? How many men are blinded by the idea that all Russian women are "traditional" and couldn't possibly be out for their own best interests? How many men clearly lose it because they have the attention of a much younger and very attractive woman, perhaps for the first time in their lives?

It is not only the speed at which they decide things, but all these other actions that exacerbate the problems for both men and women. I like Gator's metaphor. How many men in such forums (and those many others who don't even bother reading forums) not only play Russian roulette, but also insist on putting more bullets in the gun?

Oh please ... you must think most men looking for a foreign bride are complete idiots.  Come down from your high horse and get your nose out of the air.

[Misha]

Oh please ... you must think most men looking for a foreign bride are complete idiots.  Come down from your high horse and get your nose out of the air.

Touchy. I presume that you had a very quick courtship before getting married.

[William3rd]

Oh please ... you must think most men looking for a foreign bride are complete idiots.  Come down from your high horse and get your nose out of the air.

Uhhhhh- way too many of them these days ARE idiots. Look at the tour guys. . . . . .

That is what the process has become. Just like a tourist spot- overused, overfished, over cliched

[Turboguy]

Frankly if you only took a sample from RWD I would say most men are not idiots.  If you look at the overall picture, the ones going on AFA tours and sitting home writing some hoty from A-web the cold hard reality is that most are complete idiots when it comes to looking for an FSU woman.

[groovlstk]

Oh please ... you must think most men looking for a foreign bride are complete idiots.  Come down from your high horse and get your nose out of the air.

I wouldn't go so far as to say most are idiots, but enough are so woefully inexperienced in matters of the heart that they are easy prey for RW who don't have good intentions.

It's just the worst imaginable collision, like turning a team of pickpockets loose in a school for the blind.

[Misha]

Frankly if you only took a sample from RWD I would say most men are not idiots.  

I would not say that the men are idiots, but there is a tendency for men to lose reason when seduced by a pretty face (I would say that is what motivated John McCain, a man that I would consider quite smart, to choose Palin, but that is another matter).

[Misha]

I wouldn't go so far as to say most are idiots, but enough are so woefully inexperienced in matters of the heart that they are easy prey for RW who don't have good intentions.

True, and then they are likely to justify unethical behavior as simply "cultural."

[Faux Pas]

FP, I understand completely, and I also think a good argument can be made that if you don't have the luxury of living with your GF for an extended period, there are other ways of getting to know her and, just as importantly, giving her the opportunity to know you.

I spent a total of four weeks face time with my wife before we were engaged. But during our courtship we spent hours together on the phone and in ICQ each and every day. I'd say approximately 6 hours per day, more on weekends. It was mutual - if I had a lunch meeting and couldn't phone her during our normal time she was really disappointed. Her desire to know me was as great as my desire to know her. I sometimes see guys who are engaged and exchange an email every few days and a phone call now and then with their fiancees, and I can't understand it. These women will be relying on their men for everything when they arrive here, why aren't they more curious in getting to know him? Why are they so indifferent?

groov,

I completely agree. I can already see this thread is splintering into many different directions which is good. One point you touch on in this post is getting to "know" her and she getting to know him. If her only interest is his house, job, property ect that should raise a major flag. Both should be exploring the individual, the moods, personalities and idiosyncrasies. Much of the foundation of this can be done before a first meeting and from across the pond with ample and constant communication.

There are two sides to this coin and it works both ways. If either the man or the lady felt the other didn't ask the right questions or dig deep enough they should run. Run and throw rocks. I can't imagine marrying someone whom you do not know. It's happening and we know it's happening. It my mind that is recipe for disaster. Much due diligence is mandatory for a cross cultural marriage to stand a chance where the odds already aren't very kind.

Like you, although not married yet, my face time is multiple trips and slightly less than 5 weeks. Thats because of my work schedule. I would spend much more time if I could but the demands of my time prohibit long periods away. Thus making more frequent trips and more expense.

Since the day we decided we had to meet we have been in constant contact. Daily phone calls, emails and txt messages. For well over a year now we haven't once had nothing to discuss and are learning more about each other every day. I proposed after returning from my second trip. We are now in the K-1 process and waiting.  I knew when I first set eyes on her she was the woman for me but, I didn't act on it until months later. Almost everything I thought I knew about her at that time was also true and is to this day. Perhaps I just got lucky I don't know. Also, all the cows aren't in the barn and we're not married yet and living together so it could still go south. But I do feel confident I have done all I can do in finding the right lady and a wonderful woman. I know her and she knows me.

[Faux Pas]

Frankly if you only took a sample from RWD I would say most men are not idiots.  If you look at the overall picture, the ones going on AFA tours and sitting home writing some hoty from A-web the cold hard reality is that most are complete idiots when it comes to looking for an FSU woman.

Your sample size is skewed. Those that come to RWD are usually looking for some factual information which moves them out of the "idiot" category. Or most of them anyway

[BC]

There's that age old saying 'if she's into you, you'll know it' that the pickle barrel boys aka OMB keep kicking around.

I think it holds up and many are ignoring this, compromising due to lack of time, funds and most likely both.

As to her needing an escape plan, I think most women have them and it is quite reasonable to do so.  It's probably quite healthy to talk about escape plans beforehand (we did).

Adjustment for both parties is as tough as it gets.  The inability of even visiting home for many months may startle the uninformed and even make the best home seem like a prison, causing a lot of stress in an already fragile relationship.  Here it wasn't a problem with travel home possible within weeks of arrival.  I'm sure we had it a bit easier than those settling in the US.  Most experience the 'Packed Bags Test' within the first year or so.. simply knowing one can go freely is comforting.  Kinda hard though when you can't get back in the country, have few or no local friends or family to spend the night with.

A bird will nest where it feels most comfortable and safe.  You have to work extremely hard to be that place.

[Enot]

I think a better term would be uneducated, but definetly not idiots.  I'm a member of many of these RW sites and there are more failures than successes.  Were they idots ... very few in my opinion.  Most were just not educated on foreign relationships. 

You can talk, see, meet women from any country (including your own).  You think you know them but you don't.  Also ... People's goals, opinions, and needs change which can turn a successful marriage upside down.

Any sort of relationship is a crap shoot, that's why more than 50% of them fail (relationships/dating and marriages) but it's not because they don't know each other.

[Misha]

Any sort of relationship is a crap shoot

Maybe, but throw in an imperfect knowledge of the other's language, the time and money invested in finding someone (and the stress of succeeding sometimes all costs), the rush of going to another country and meeting a younger more attractive woman and your dice are starting to be quite loaded. Women likely fall to similar pressures. They meet someone, he proposes in a week or less, do they want to take the risk of saying no, I would like more time to think about it? They may see it as their last or only chance to find someone in the near future. They might think that if they say that they want to wait that he will move on to the next woman on his list. Under these circumstances, the best option might be for her to say yes, go to him, but have an escape plan just in case things don't work out.

[SANDRO43]

It's just the worst imaginable collision, like turning a team of pickpockets loose in a school for the blind.

Aren't the blind actually more sensitive to touch and sound than people with normal eyesight ?

[Enot]

I would bet dollars to donuts that most foreign women don't have an escape plan, except for maybe returning to their former life if things don't work out.  Anything else would be a defeatist attitude.

[groovlstk]

Any sort of relationship is a crap shoot, that's why more than 50% of them fail (relationships/dating and marriages) but it's not because they don't know each other.

Pointing to the general divorce rate and using it to try to account for the statistical inevitability of failures like Wayne's, Max's, Golden25's, Happyness's, etc., etc., is an obfuscation. If anything, adding the stranger factor to the already dicey odds tips the chances of success even further in the direction of failure. If the failure rate for "normal" marriages is 50%, I'd put the failure rate for one-week wonders at 90% or higher. Again, just based on my own personal experience, but there's not much to indicate otherwise.

One juicy rationalization for marrying a stranger that I see here all too often is when a guy cites that old statistic that says people who lived together prior to marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don't. Some guys completely misinterpret that to mean that those folks who didn't live w/their spouses spent very little time with their spouses prior to marriage. Thus, they see it as justification for their one-week engagements.

Another is when guys cite the 50% divorce rate and think that alone justifies taking a huge risk. But if they understood their real odds were closer to 10% or even less, would they be so cavalier?

[Misha]

Another is when guys cite the 50% divorce rate and think that alone justifies taking a huge risk.

Also, it seems that people don't understand that the 50% is over a lifetime. It includes those who divorced after a few months as well as those who divorced after 20 or 30 or 50 years. True, people are more likely to divorce in the first few years, but there are many people who will divorce after 15 or 20 or 25 years of marriage. Is there anybody here on this forum who has been married for more than 10 years? KenC is getting close, I believe, and that is about it as far as I know.

[Enot]

I still say love and respect are more imortant than knowing someone.  I have heard many times that FSU marry but are not in love and they think they will "grow into" love.  This is not the attitude to have.

[AnastassiaAsh]

that old statistic that says people who lived together prior to marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don't.

By living together in this context they usually mean having sex before marriage. Then the whole statement makes sense. At least in Christian circles.

But I agree that nobody and nothing is in the way for both a woman and a man of spending quality time together. It should be the decision of their lives, so at least both should put enough of effort into the whole process. It seems to me that if people divorce in 15-20-25 years, it can't be because of cultural differences or things like that. At that point it's already a common marriage like anybody else's. And the main reason is lack of communication and desire to work on the relationship. Very often both AM and RW simply don't know the meaning of what i have just written.

Getting back to the question: Why does she need an escape plan if you're such a nice guy?

1. She needs an escape plan if she decides to marry you to get and stay in the country, but deep inside doesn't want to marry at all
2. She needs an escape plan if in deed she thinks you are not such a nice guy yourself, but she decides to go ahead and still risk it all

Why would I want to escape anything if I am open and honest with my intentions and if my man is my dream? If I am even 1% not sure about the guy, why would I go?

[BC]

I still say love and respect are more imortant than knowing someone.  I have heard many times that FSU marry but are not in love and they think they will "grow into" love.  This is not the attitude to have.

Don't all relationships 'grow into love'?, usually before marriage?

In modern times the process is dating, living together, marriage.  A huge step is being skipped here by most.

Love is a product and not a result of a few dates.

[Misha]

I still say love and respect are more imortant than knowing someone.  I have heard many times that FSU marry but are not in love and they think they will "grow into" love.  This is not the attitude to have.

But, how will you know? Is a woman likely to say, "I don't love you, but I am going to marry you anyways." No, she will likely keep it to herself and tell her fiancé otherwise. As for love and respect, this is the product of time. Yes, the chemistry/falling in love part can be quick, but love (what remains once the chemistry has cooled) takes time.

[groovlstk]

I still say love and respect are more imortant than knowing someone. 

I think that's what's referred to as infatuation, not love.

[Jumper]

enot said

Anything else would be a defeatist attitude.

good point.
and along those lines, i would say a very large majority of FSU women do indeed have a defeatist attitude in general.
and yes they will look at things with a negative view,,
expecting the worse.
often not even hoping for the best.


yes its a generalization, many are positive people.

my advice, look for one of them.


Russian women ,like Nastya, and other RW posting here,
 are the exceptions, not the norm!
at least from the women most guys traveling thier for this purpose will meet.

but they are the women they should be looking for.
certian personalities and attributes will certainly be more adaptive to a new culture and life.

 

[William3rd]

By living together in this context they usually mean having sex before marriage. Then the whole statement makes sense. At least in Christian circles.

But I agree that nobody and nothing is in the way for both a woman and a man of spending quality time together. It should be the decision of their lives, so at least both should put enough of effort into the whole process. It seems to me that if people divorce in 15-20-25 years, it can't be because of cultural differences or things like that. At that point it's already a common marriage like anybody else's. And the main reason is lack of communication and desire to work on the relationship. Very often both AM and RW simply don't know the meaning of what i have just written.

Getting back to the question: Why does she need an escape plan if you're such a nice guy?

1. She needs an escape plan if she decides to marry you to get and stay in the country, but deep inside doesn't want to marry at all
2. She needs an escape plan if in deed she thinks you are not such a nice guy yourself, but she decides to go ahead and still risk it all

Why would I want to escape anything if I am open and honest with my intentions and if my man is my dream? If I am even 1% not sure about the guy, why would I go?

Exactly right- why would someone go if even 1% uncertain? To escape where they are or to upgrade where they are going. . . . .

[ScottinCrimea]

I still say love and respect are more imortant than knowing someone.  I have heard many times that FSU marry but are not in love and they think they will "grow into" love.  This is not the attitude to have.

How can you possibly love and respect someone that you don't know?   

[Enot]

How can you possibly love and respect someone that you don't know?   

If you read my posts earlier, you would know why.