Why does she need an escape plan if you're such a nice guy?

[SANDRO43]

Don't worry about Gogol's antisemitism it is not something like his individual and concrete (or specific), it is an old cliché of a Jew's image that was typical in literature

I don't know how accurate its depiction of Jewish life in a small Russian village may be, but this 1971 movie - from a successful Broadway musical - does include some beautiful music .

And, Sculpto, its title harkens to what famous painting ?

[OlgaH]

I don't know how accurate its depiction of Jewish life in a small Russian village may be, but this 1971 movie - from a successful Broadway musical - does include some beautiful music .

And, Sculpto, its title harkens to what famous painting ?

the musical is based on Shalom Aleichem's story, "Tevye the Milkman." I like Shalom Aleichem.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/aleichem.html
http://www.sholom-aleichem.org/

Agree about beautiful music in the Broadway musical 

[OlgaH]

Also I would advise to read Isaac Babel 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Babel

[Sculpto]

OK Sandro.. you got me.. I don't know the painting.. and I know I will let out a loud Homer Simpson style "DOH" when you tell me.  LOL

Most Jewish people I know take Fiddler as practically gospel as it describes shtetl life.  I wish there was more information easily available about Jewish life in the early part of the Soviet Union.  I have read the little bit of information available about the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in eastern Siberia.  Pretty interesting stuff about one of the most obscure parts of Russia.

Maybe it is an American thing but I identify myself more as American than Jewish, as do most other American Jews I know.  But, the persistence of such stereotypes confounds and as i consider myself highly aware of human rights and self determination of ethnicities when I encounter those sort of "yarmulke" jokes I can laugh out loud but deep down it stirs something and can make me hesitant to reveal this part of my life until I am confident in a persons deep seated views on the subject.  

And Olga, yes, it was the "Sun Also Rises".  I remember the description of the Jewish guy sleeping as the group travelled thereby missing the scenery and how it was considered somehow a sign of ignorance or stupidity.  That simple line in a book insured that I have never slept through anything my whole life and frankly instilled a prejudice in me against those who do miss seeing the "flowers at the side of the road" when they travel.

[OlgaH]

  I have read the little bit of information available about the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in eastern Siberia.  Pretty interesting stuff about one of the most obscure parts of Russia.

Here is the Jewish Autonomous Region official government website

http://www.eao.ru/eng/?p=361

[SANDRO43]

OK Sandro.. you got me.. I don't know the painting.. and I know I will let out a loud Homer Simpson style "DOH" when you tell me.  LOL

Marc Chagall's The Fiddler .

[Vaughn]

Russian Channel One recently aired the Mini-series called Тяжёлый Песок,
(OlgaH - help me here...Heavy Sand?) that portrayed Jewish village life in
Ukraine just prior to and during Nazi occupation. Many portions in the earlier
episodes reminded me of Fiddler on the Roof, minus its brilliant score.

Overall, the series was addicting. We watched every episode...

[Sculpto]

Olga thank you for the link to Issac Babel.  That is exactly what I was looking for.  I now have a big new project.    I have to say reading the wiki made me rather emotional.  These kinds of historical links are why I became interested in Ukraine in the first place.  Even though my ancestors were bakers, just common folk.. I can not help imagine that figures such as Babel may have bought bread from my great Grandfather or shared a glass of wine with him on a holiday.  It was the same kind imaginings I had when I was in Odessa and could feel the Jewishness of the place even today.

This next paragraph is defintely an American thing that may shed some light for the Europeans reading.  One of my best friends from art school days is a woman who has become rather well known in art circles and most recently had a one woman show at MOCA in Los Angeles.  Her family background is Flemish.  At some point in her career she immersed herself in everything Flemish and became an expert in everything Flemish including learning the Flemish language.  Her paintings have taken on a Flemish influence and she can discuss obscure and bizarre details of Flemish art that no one but herself cares about.  She grew up much as I did, probably as many of us did.. in a generic suburb where the "Americanization" of everything was considered the goal and the erasure of everything "ethnic" the positive by-product of Americanization.  The re-discovery of our origins is an obsession for many artists and creative people that I know.  

[OlgaH]

Russian Channel One recently aired the Mini-series called Тяжёлый Песок,
(OlgaH - help me here...Heavy Sand?) that portrayed Jewish village life in
Ukraine just prior to and during Nazi occupation. Many portions in the earlier
episodes reminded me of Fiddler on the Roof, minus its brilliant score.

Overall, the series was addicting. We watched every episode...

Yes it is "Heavy Sand" and the series are based on the Anatoly Rybakov's novel "Heavy Sand"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Rybakov

[SANDRO43]

She grew up much as I did, probably as many of us did.. in a generic suburb where the "Americanization" of everything was considered the goal and the erasure of everything "ethnic" the positive by-product of Americanization.  The re-discovery of our origins is an obsession for many artists and creative people that I know.

From what I've read and heard, that seems a fairly common development: 1st generations being anxious to integrate and rejecting their immigrant parents' backgrounds, later generations gradually rediscovering their roots.

[OlgaH]

Heavy Sand trailer (only in Russian    )

[youtube=425,350]iWgaEJBT07g[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]NU_9NvFcB6I&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]ztdslOLJr28&feature=related[/youtube]

[Sculpto]

Wow, my reading list gets longer.. thanks again Olga. 

[Sculpto]

From what I've read and heard, that seems a fairly common development: 1st generations being anxious to integrate and rejecting their immigrant parents' backgrounds, later generations gradually rediscovering their roots.

That was defnitely the case in my family, though, because they lived in Jewish communities in New York I think it probably took an extra generation until my parents took us out of the City.  The re-dicovery is not so common though.. I think it is superficial in most cases with the exception of certain communities.  For example Italians seem to retain a strong Italian identity and are often very interested in returning to Italy.  I have seen it strongly in Germans also. The Irish never stop being Irish.

But, I really think it depends completely on where a person lives and grows up.  Cultural identity seems to be stronger in the cities where in the generic suburbs the interest seems to be of less importance.  Most Jewish people will make the connection to Israel before they would even consider going back to Russia as I have.  That is probably a remnant of Theodor Herzl's brand of Zionism and the influence of Hebrew school. 

[OlgaH]

Wow, my reading list gets longer.. thanks again Olga. 

You are welcome 

Isaak Babel Page
http://www.stanford.edu/~gfreidin/Publications/Babel.htm

I think you also will be interested in the novel "Life and Fate" by Vasily Grossman

A Writer at War. Vasily Grossman with the Red Army, 1941-1945. Edited & Translated by Antony Bevor & Luba Vinogradova (Pantheon Books).
Vasily Grossman was arguably the greatest Russian novelist since Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. Indeed, his magisterial novel, Life and Fate, is a Tolstoyan epic, rivaling War and Peace. In it, he portrayed his horror at Stalinist excesses plus the fate of his fellow Jews, including his mother, during the German invasion and occupation...

http://john.purplestateofmind.com/?p=247

http://john.purplestateofmind.com/?p=238

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_and_Fate

[SANDRO43]

the musical is based on Shalom Aleichem's story, "Tevye the Milkman." I like Shalom Aleichem.

That was defnitely the case in my family, though, because they lived in Jewish communities in New York I think it probably took an extra generation until my parents took us out of the City. 

Then you undoubtedly know what those words mean . Here's a soulful version of the song, again beautiful music:
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfdUG5ht4Xk[/youtube]

[OlgaH]

Carol Cantrell has a beautiful voice.

I also love Sh'ma Israel Elohai by singer Sarit Hadad

[youtube=425,350]_Jjy-TCHoNc[/youtube]

[Daveman]

Hey, I just found this thread after my prolonged absence.

Excellent thread Groov... just wanted to bump it...

[groovlstk]

Hey, I just found this thread after my prolonged absence.

Excellent thread Groov... just wanted to bump it...

Thanks, Dave. This thought originated in Wayne's thread, wherein Doll was talking about how women reach out to other RW via online forums just before leaving for the promised land, just in case they need "help" upon arrival.

It would scare the bejesus out of me if I married a woman who thought it necessary to do such, but then again if I married a stranger like a good number of men do, I certainly can't blame the women for looking out for their own well being.

[Al_C]

I want my wife to have complete confidence in me.  I would be dreaming to believe that I deserve complete trust after one, two, three, four, fill-in-the-blanks number of meetings.  The confidence that she needs is not going to come that way.

So how does she get that complete confidence?  Would she feel better with an escape plan?  If so, let her have it.  Why would I have a problem with her having one?  Is my self confidence so low that I have to worry that she will launch it?

Would she feel better running a background check on me?  I told several RW over the years that if they want to do that, they would have my blessing as well as my cooperation.  After all, what am I hiding?

In other words, if you think you are such a nice guy, why are you so worried about her having an escape plan?

[Julia G]

Anyone can make a mistake. I'm amazed though at how many make the same mistake twice or even more. Is that the famous 'numbers game'?

It happens because of the initial attitudes and expectations. I would recommend to pick a girl with looks you were able to get in America, but of younger age (that`s the only real thing in all advertisement of RW). Not all women are desperate GCDs and the most romantic become most materialistic when they arrive and get smart very soon. So also I would recommend to ask the lady about her materialistic ambitions - in what kind of house she wants to live, what clothes to wear, what kind of car and so on. Does she need all that just at the moment of arriving? Also if she`s going to work too to get it all. Golddiggers will drop you after that. Drama queens will make scandals and romantic ones will say they need only you, not your money etc. If romantic say it at initial stage - don`t be too charmed that`s part of the game. I`m cynical maybe but I saw many romantics whose love went away as long as they discovered men can`t satisfy their needs. But the romantic ones are not good with brain at same time cause don`t understand that a Decent man from America will be very suspisious to such a divorcee and it`s more clever to meet a nice guy from the very beginning. I believe women must marry only if they are sure they can make this particular man happy.
 Also I hate attitude - "prove me you`re not a green card digger". I spent enough time in medschool to know that paranoia is almost uncurable so i don`t want to be responsible for other women`s faults. There`s enough men for pretty, intelligent and educated women who are elite level of fiancees (sorry my megalomania lol) so we can afford to be picky.