Beware Yalta Apartments

[KyivTrip]

Hi Everybody,
I had a horrible experience with Lyudmila and Yalta Apartments.  She is listed right here on this board with apartments in Yalta.

I first went to Ukraine in 2005 and have spent about 25 weeks there, altogether.  On my second trip, September 2006, I met Lilia and we got engaged on my third trip - Christmas/ New Year 2006/07.  Unfortunately, Lilia had a massive stroke, has not recovered, and I have had to start over.  Thus the new trips.  This trip I met Olga from Vinnitsa.

I have rented over a dozen apartments in Kyiv, 3 in Yalta, 2 in Zaporozhye, 2 in Vinnitsa, one in Dnepropetrovsk, one in Sevastopol and one in Lugansk.  The only problem I have had prior to this was the one in Lugansk arranged by Jack Bragg.  In fact, when Olga was hospitalized, my apartment resource in Kyiv offered me a full refund - $240 for 3 nights.  I must say it has been my general experience that Ukrainians do not charge me for services I don't use.  I have had money returned to me on a couple of occasions where my plans changed and I had paid in advance.

Olga met me in Kyiv on September 24, 2008 but we went back to Vinnitsa together instead of going to Yalta on the advice of her doctor.  He was concerned about infection or other complications and told Olga not to travel.

I sent a $150 deposit, for 3 nights, to Lyudmila.  I have stayed with her twice before and could not have imagined that she would steal my money.  I bought her some kitchen towels and a nice omelet pan on one visit to Yalta - I thought we were friendly, apparently not.

I left for Ukraine on September 23, 2008.  Olga and I had planned to go to Yalta for a week or 10 days.  Olga got ill on September 16, was hospitalized on the 17th and had minor surgery on the 18th.  On the 19th I advised Lyudmila that we would not arrive on September 27th as planned and she acknowledged my cancellation.  In an e-mail dated September 29 Lyudmila said she would return $100 of the $150.  She never returned a penny.  If you care to read the sordid details - the lies, the stories and the runaround I got, use the link below.  If you care to ask Lyudmila about this - maybe she would be motivated to return my money if she knew people were finding about this - I would appreciate the support.
I will provide contact info on request.

http://www.idromdenver.com/lyudmila_leonidova.htm

Ciao,
David

[Sculpto]

Such nastiness for $150. 

Hey Jack since he is calling you out in his post.. care to respond?

[KyivTrip]

Hey Sculpto,
You know, these trips cost 3500 or 4000 dollars if you stay a month, like I do.  $150 ?  who cares, really.  It is the way I was treated over this that made me angry.  If you read the "link" you know what I mean.  And this woman has seen me in Yalta the last 3 years and certainly can imagine I would be back.  I was just there in May and stayed with her almost 3 weeks.
Jack and I had it out last year over the apartment in Lugansk.  I didn't like the "tour" and decided to leave.  I had paid for 4 days and only used one night when I realized the "tour" wasn't for me - wound up using 2 nights so I could get a better train time.  I asked him to refund $80 (of $160) and the shit hit the fan ;-)
David

[Sculpto]

David,
I did read the link and found it a bit strange.  First of all I think by demanding the woman refund the money through your friends you put her into a difficult position.  If I went to Macy's and asked them to put a refund on my friends credit card they would most certainly refuse.  In fact no business would do that, except with a notarized letter of instructions.  She was just protecting herself.  I think she stopped responding because you behaved without respect and insulted her.  I have a client right now that is acting the same way.  He signed the contract, I gave him the plans, he changed the plans without understanding the consequences and things ended up not working out, but, he is demanding a refund even though if he had followed the plans he wouldn't have a problem.  I am not taking his calls right now because he has yelled at me, complained to my boss in an effort to damage my reputation and refuses to accept the fact that he caused the problem.  If he was treaing me with respect and asking me for a solution instead of yelling at me and trying to hurt me I would be happy to help him, but, since he thinks he can bully me he will get nothing.

Then, from her perspective you did waste some of her time and she may have lost some other chance for renting the apartment that you had reserved.  By demanding she do this or do that or go here or go there you wasted more of her time. 

It sounds to me like you demanded some sort of instant gratification and when you didn't get it you've thrown a tantrum on the internet with the purpose of damaging this womans reputation and harming her business.  Certainly you wouldn't do the same here in the USA where your actions could be constituted as defamation and you could then therefore be subjected to civil suit.  Your actions make me want to make an uneeded trip to Yalta and specifically rent from her.  I am also suprised with as much on the ground experience as you have that you would demonstrate so little understanding of the culture.  Do you wear bright hawaiin print shirts, knee length lime green shorts, flip flops and pilots sunglasses too?

And, from what you described about your circumstance with Jack frankly it sounds like the same thing.  You didn't get what you wanted so you have no problem defaming him.  But, you show no respect for the fact that regardless of the circumstances of your cancellation in either situation, YOU CANCELLED.  You did not fullfill your end of the deal and somehow you expect to be refunded even though YOU BROKE the contract.

I also want to point out that I found your comment about your girl who had a stroke to be pretty callous.  The poor woman has had her life destroyed but you had to start over.  Poor poor you.  You don't even show the tiniest bit of compassion for her.  Did you ask her for a refund also?  I suspect her stroke was Gods way of saving her.   :evil:

[Jack]

Hi Everybody,
I had a horrible experience with Lyudmila and Yalta Apartments.  She is listed right here on this board with apartments in Yalta.

Hey Everybody, if David from Denver is saying something bad about this lady from Yalta chances are she is a fine, upstanding individual who could care less about ever having such a client as this David guy again after seeing what a fine piece of work he is.

I have stayed with her twice before and could not have imagined that she would steal my money. 

David, maybe because she realizes you are really a piece of schit.

If you care to read the sordid details - the lies, the stories and the runaround I got, use the link below. 

Hey, I can do one better than that.  If you care to read of the lie's, the stories and the runaround of this David from Denver, read further.   

If you care to ask Lyudmila about this - maybe she would be motivated to return my money

Didn't you try to blackmail her?  And it didn't work!   Maybe you told her if she sends you the money you won't say anything bad about her. You know you have a nasty habit of doing this.

I would appreciate the support.

Haaa, you have me laughing, YOU, would appreciate these people's support!!

Hey Jack since he is calling you out in his post.. care to respond?

Sure Sculpto, would be happy too.

Sculpto, you know these guys we call a 'sex pervert'?  Well this scu   ...oops, forgot I told Dan I would not call anyone that, this piece of shict takes the cake. What a low-life, lying @!m#f.

A short version, David from Denver decides to join us in Lugansk. He is going to two cities, Lugansk and Dnepropetrovsk. We have set up meetings with ladies for him in both Lugansk and Dnepropetrovsk.  Although David from Denver was only suppose to be part of our tour in Lugansk and Dnepropetrovsk, he joined the group in Kharkov. David decided to ride the chartred bus we took from Kharkov to Lugansk. The bus ride from Kharkov to Lugansk was not part of the tour that David had signed up for. I gather David thinks these type of things, these bus rides, must be free.  When Galina went to collect the $25, or whatever the fee was, for his portion of the bus ride from Kharkov to Lugansk, David told Galina he had already paid Jack. This was while I was in the hospital last fall and so Galina took David for his word. That was, and always is, a mistake.  So the group get's to Lugansk. Galina and I talk daily, a couple of times. She informed me that David from Denver had told her that he had paid me for the bus ride from Kharkov to Lugansk. I told Galina that David was mistaken. I told Galina that the next time she saw David to call me, I would tell David he had not paid for his portion of the bus ride from Kharkov to Lugansk.

A little later that day Galina was surprised to see David at the hotel.  In an effort to save $6 a day, David did not stay with the rest of the group, he was in a flat some 25 minutes from us. Once Galina got me on the phone she handed the phone to David. I told David that he had not previously paid me for his bus ride to Lugansk and he had told Galina something that was not factual.

David earlier had said he could manage getting to Lugansk on his own, he never indicated he was going to be riding with us until he got on the bus the morning the group went to Lugansk.  I told David on the phone that Galina had paid his portion of the bus trip from Kharkov to Lugansk and his cheap ass was not riding with us from Lugansk to Dnepropetrovsk without paying his portion of the bus trip.

David said he understood and we hung up the phone. At that time, at that exact time, David told Galina he was leaving Lugansk. This was his first day in Lugansk. He told Galina that tomorrow he would like help, he asked if we could take him to the bus terminal to buy his bus ticket. Galina told him we would.

Then David did a couple of things. While at the hotel he began to ask the guys on the trip if they would be interested in renting his flat. He told them it was a very nice flat, etc. A few guys asked where it was, David told them 20 minutes away and they just laughed at him. To save $6 over the price of the hotel room, to be 20-25 minutes from the group, they would spend that in taxi alone meeting up with the other guys. David told them they could walk. The guys, who ALL thought David was a wacko, told David they were not interested.

David asked for this flat for four days. When he got to the flat, after seeing the flat, making sure he was happy with the flat, then he paid the flat owner directly for four days. The flat owner took the money and went to her country dacha.  Poor whittle David wants to leave early. He spoke highly of the flat, their was nothing wrong with the flat, plenty of hot water, clean. The flat owner lived up to her part of the deal, but poor whittle David from Denver wants to leave after two days, he wants the flat owner, who is in the country, she vacated her flat for four days, and David wants her to give him two days back because he wants to leave early.

Then David showed what a true scu,...err, .. person he is. While sitting with a group of men, according to these men, David said something to the effect of "Do you guys want to see why I am going back to Zaporozhye". One or two guys said sure and David then showed them photos of a woman in Zaporozhye that he had just spent some time with. Some of the photos were simi-nude, one photo was a photo David had taken of this girls p_ _ _ y.

If that was not bad enough a short time later David saw Galina at the hotel. David asked if she wanted to see his photos, Galina, being nice, said sure. David started showing his photos and then got to the photos of this woman from Zaporozhye. When he got to his girls p_ _ _ y shot Galina quickly, embarrassed, turned her head away. She thought that he had mistakingly showed her this photo and said something to the effect "Oh David, I think that must be a personal photo".  David said, "Ohh, excuse me".

As soon as David left Galina called me and told me what had just happened. Galina has seen and taken care of several hundred clients but not one had ever done this before, to show her a photo of his girls p_ _ _ y. Galina felt bad, she said it made her feel a little dirty. I was pissed but not much I could do about it being 6000 miles away.

Galina thought that David had shown her this photo by mistake. I was hoping it was also an accident showing a married 32 year old Ukraine woman such a photo, even though we knew he had shown these photos to many of the men.

Then later than evening, one of our 21 year old workers came to Galina in her hotel room and told her what David had just done. David from Denver had just shown this 21 year old girl the photo of his girls p_ _ _ y. The first time with Galina, ok, maybe it could have been an accident. To show such a photo to a 21 year old girl a few hours later?  Not an accident,.. a PERVERT! 

Galina called me right away and told me what had just happened.

I told her that was it, we don't want these type of clients, let's do what we need to do to get rid of this scu ...., uhh.., person.  I don't know what type of Russian women David from Denver has been meeting but not many good Russian women I know want to see photos of another Russian womans p_ _ _ y.

The next day David asked for help in getting his bus ticket.  The young 21 year old did not want to work with him but she was the only one available at the time and so we thought this would be a 20-25 minute deal to have a taxi take her and David to the bus terminal. She went to call a taxi and David told her no, they could take a local city mini-bus. He said they could save $3 or $4 by taking the bus. So they walked to the place where the bus picks up people, and they waited, and waited. She said they waited over 25 minutes before a bus came that could take them to the bus terminal. This cheap bastard thought nothing of having this young lady wait half an hour for a bus so he could save $3 or $4.

Their's more to the story that may come out but to cut this short, David get's back to America. He writes me an e-mail, which I still have if he wants to deny any of this, and in this e-mail he writes me "Jack, if you will send me $80 for the two nights flat in Lugansk, I will not say anything bad about your tour". 

WHAT!

What a real piece of work this guy is. If I agree to send him $80, he won't say anything bad.  Well I thought about this for one half of a nano-second and called him things that Dan doesn't want me to write on this board and told David that no scu,...err,.. no sorry ass sex pervert is going to blackmail me into anything.  If I had of been in Lugansk when David had done these things he would still be wearing one of my size 15's in his ass today.

[Sculpto]

Jack, LMFAO!!!!

I knew I smelled sheeet all over the place after I read that guys post. 

Your story does suggest a new thread.. and a quite relevant topic.. what are the consequences of sex tourists on FSUW and the men that want to marry them.  How well does the "Ukrainian Telegraph" actually work in spreading the word about bad American men.  How much negative impact does one sex tourist, especially one who might be using the promise of marriage to get laid, have on other serious men who follow him.  Does a man like that represent the next Hans Reiser?

[KyivTrip]

Hello Sculpto,
I notified Lyudmila on September 19 that Olga had been hospitalized and, on doctors orders, could not travel to Yalta on September 27.  That is 9 days before we were to arrive.  Lyudmila offered to return $100 of the $150 and it was her idea to have her son George, in Kyiv, return the money to Slava.  She knows Slava because he helped make arrangements with her for me, before.  She mentioned that this seemed most convenient for her.  She could have sent the money directly to me at any time over the next 3 weeks (except for 3 days in Uman, I was in Kyiv or Vinnitsa), but kept changing what SHE wanted to do.  In the end, she returned no money even though she had many possibilities to do so over a 3 week period.

As far as Jack Bragg goes, over a dozen people contacted me "off list" last year with similar stories about his gouging and misrepresentations.  They didn't post publicly because he takes the low road.  Can't blame them.  Jack started a name calling shit storm talking about things he doesn't even know - HE WASN'T EVEN THERE.  He had been schmoozing me up to go on one of his tours for more than a year.  I was curious, I agreed to Lugansk.  He kept saying I should join the tour in Kharkov and ride the bus to Lugansk.  An hour out of town his rep asked for $65 for the bus.  A bus tour, but the bus was "extra".  I could have taken the train for less than $15.  A couple of the other guys were also surprised at this extra charge.  To be brief, because I really find these nasty character assassination things childish, I didn't like the party or the way the meetings were set up.  By the way, the meetings were "extra" also - everything but the party was extra.  And the prices were higher than if I had arranged the services myself.
So - I paid Jack Bragg over $500 to attend a party with 60 something women - many around 20 years old.  The 35 to 40s that I had been told would be there - well - there were a couple.  At the party you could have a piece of bread with a slice of meat or cheese and a glass of juice or champagne.  Definitely worth it !!!  When I went out to have a cigarette after the musical tables were over, half the women left - many to meet men right in front of the restaurant.  I spoke to a couple of them.  They get a gift for coming to the party and had nothing better to do - not, necessarily interested in meeting Jack's clients.     

Fortunately for me I had other plans I could pursue - and did.

Any time I do business with people I consider to be dishonest or have misrepresented their services I will make a complaint.  So sue me ;-)
David

[groovlstk]

There have been many acrimonious threads about what the word "greedy" means in the FSU.

Gentlemen and Gentlewomen, behold! Finally, a specimen that satisfies all definitions.

[Mir]

How come both the women you went out with ended up in the hospital?

In my experience if you rent an apartment and pay the rent in advance there is little chance of a refund if your plans change, certainly they never refund the one night advance they require at the time of booking if you cancel.

[Sculpto]

yeah if that happened to me and my GF ended up in the hospital I would certainly be posting about that and trying to find out how I could make sure she was comfortable and well taken care of.  But.. David is onyl worried about his measly $150 and making other people look bad.. so sad, so sad...

Why can't guys like him just go to Thailand or the Philipines to get their fantasies fullfilled?

[KyivTrip]

Hi Mir,
I can't really answer your question.  In 2006 Lilia and I spent a week together in Yalta and then another 11 or 12 days in Nikolaev.  I went back for 3 weeks over Christmas and the New Year.  The only "incident" I recall is that we stopped and had tea for an hour on the waterfront in Yalta (September 2006) when Lilia was feeling a bit woozy.  She did have chronic high blood pressure but, otherwise, seemed to be a healthy 34 year old woman.  It is tragic, really.  She became very distant and her fear was that, if she came to the US she would have another stroke here and wind up in a foreign hospital far from her family and all that she knew.  There was also a risk when flying because of the change in pressure.

Olga's issue is really a minor one.  I don't know the exact details but it is a "woman" thing and she needed minor surgery, which she had on September 18.  She was out of the hospital by the 20th and came to Kyiv to meet me on the 24th.  The agency in Vinnitsa checked with the doctor themselves and confirmed that she was not to travel for 2 to 3 weeks - which just unluckily covered the time we had planned to go to Yalta.  Olga did a follow-up visit while we were together in Vinnitsa and all is well.      

Happily, I can say that my experience has been - and I have rented over 20 apartments in Ukraine - that I have gotten refunds on the few occasions my plans have changed.  I asked for a refund (2 of 4 nights paid for) in Lugansk and that was my only bad experience until now - in 6 trips.  
I almost canceled my trip when I found out Olga was hospitalized and the people in Kyiv offered a full refund of the $240 (three nights) I had paid starting September 24.  I also told them on the 19th so it was less than a week's notice.  They told me I could have my friend, Slava come by and pick it up anytime.  By the 21st, though, Olga insisted that we would meet as planned so a refund was not necessary.  

One of the things that made this cancellation different from "just a change in plans" was that Olga could not go to Yalta, on doctor's orders.  I advised Lyudmila at the soonest possible moment - 9 days before Olga and I were to arrive in Yalta.  I sent Lyudmila the doctor's notes.  It is really odd - she, at first offered me $100 of the $150, lamenting the fact that her son, George, had already gone back to Kyiv or she could have sent it with him.  If she had sent me the $100 as she said, I would have accepted it, as is.  If you read the e-mails you can see that Lyudmila changed her mind repeatedly about how much and when she would return the money - but never returned a cent.  I would have used her, again, next summer, but ...
David  

[GoodOlBoy]

KyivTrip: I am curious, how old were these poor "sick" women ?

[KyivTrip]

Hi GoodOlBoy,
Lilia from Nikolaev had just turned 34 when she had an ischemic stroke on February 1, 2007.
Olga was 37 on September 18, 2008.  Olga's problem was not serious, a problem any woman might have - it was just the timing that kept us from Yalta.  And, of course, I called her every day and offered my support.
As I did with Lilia until it became pointless and she asked me to stop.

And, on another, general, note: Why some people on these lists twist things, assume the worst, call names and make character attacks, I'll never understand.  It lowers the quality of the discussion and prevents many people from participating.  I try to be positive and constructive - even if I am making a complaint ;-)
David

[Sculpto]

David,
Now you are complaininng about people making character attacks, yet, you fail to realize you started it by mentioning Jack in your original post, not to mention the fact that you have attempted to defame yalta apartments with only one side of the story.

So, you were neither positive or constructive in your complaint.  Try again and maybe you will get a more sympathetic response.

[William3rd]

Yep, Jack. That scenario seems to fit pretty well with the rest of the story. I was thinking about WHY WHY WHY someone would write so much about a hundred dollar price. If I were the lady I would have told him to pound sand.

[KyivTrip]

I only mentioned Jack Bragg because that is the only other time I have had an issue with an apartment.  And I only said I had a problem - no name calling or personal attacks.  That's the problem with Jack - if you complain he gets personal and rants and raves.  My (mercifully short) rebuttal: first of all, Jack was not there.  He was in Texas.  I do not recognize the events he states as fact - and I was there.  I made a decision: the morning after the party when I was told I must pay for meetings with 3 women PLUS interpreters PLUS whatever they might order at the restaurant, I made a choice.  Should I spend $200 or so meeting 3 women I know virtually nothing about or should I go back to Zaporozhye and spend more time with a nice woman I had just spent a week with.  I meet women after a few moths of correspondence, normally, but I took a chance and it wasn't for me.

I told Galina (Jack's assistant) I would be leaving Lugansk and asked if I could get some money back for the apartment.  She wanted to know why I was leaving and I told her I had just left a nice woman in Zaporozhye and a bird in the was worth 2 in the bush, so to speak.  Naturally she was curious and, after a couple of questions from her, I mentioned I had some pictures.  I showed her the pictures in my camera.  She did not run away screaming - she said she liked them.  There was one of Elena from the back cooking borscht in her panties.  She was in the kitchen - I was in the living room about 30 feet away.  There was another when we were goofing around with the camera on the bed - it is not even in focus and down her panties from chest level.  Later, at lunch, several of Jack's clients approached me in the restaurant where I was having lunch with a Swedish guy I met.  They wanted to see the pictures.  Why not ?  They are also looking to meet a woman and it is natural to be curious about someone who had just spent time with a nice Ukrainian lady. 
So ... when I asked for my $80 back I became a pervert and a slew of other nasty names.  Fine - if that's the way Jack handles complaints ...  You know, when all is well all customers are treated well.  It might be interesting to some to see how a customer is treated who has a complaint.  To me it is a better judge of a business, and a man, to see how they deal with customer complaints.  My opinion.

And it is not the money, $150 in this case - we all know that these trips cost thousands of $$.  It is that she said - admitted, let's say - that she should return at least part of the money.  Then she went through a series of stories and excuses that, frankly, are insulting. 

Anyway, I posted the unaltered e-mails and, if you care to read them you can decide for yourself if you want to do business with Lyudmila or not.  I'm just offering the information and, I think, a constructive warning.  I have been appropriately admonished on one of the lists for using someone who is "unregistered, has only a cell phone and no office, and does not take credit cards."  OK - my mistake.  It has been my experience in Ukraine that most of these agencies do NOT accept credit cards - just like Jack Bragg.
Ciao,
David

[Sculpto]

ok everyone, repeat after me... Ugly American, Ugly American, Ugly American.... or as my GF would say.. Stupid American, Stupid American, Stupid American....

[William3rd]

Hi GoodOlBoy,
Lilia from Nikolaev had just turned 34 when she had an ischemic stroke on February 1, 2007.
Olga was 37 on September 18, 2008.  Olga's problem was not serious, a problem any woman might have - it was just the timing that kept us from Yalta.  And, of course, I called her every day and offered my support.
As I did with Lilia until it became pointless and she asked me to stop.

And, on another, general, note: Why some people on these lists twist things, assume the worst, call names and make character attacks, I'll never understand.  It lowers the quality of the discussion and prevents many people from participating.  I try to be positive and constructive - even if I am making a complaint ;-)


David

Dont worry- the cheerleaders will be along bye and bye and you will get all the support that you need. . . .

[Jack]

I have a response to David's post.

I really do not like having to spend 10 seconds out of my day for the likes of you or your type. I really have much better things to be doing with my time and at this particular moment, I have very little time. I really thought about just blowing you off until I got some time this weekend but when I see you write ..... "I do not recognize the events he states as fact - and I was there."..... and I think of a 57 year old man who get's his jollies from showing a 21 year old Ukraine girl a photo of his girlfriends vagina, I say to hell with this weekend.

Will try to have response in next 24 hours.

[KyivTrip]

OK - to stay on topic: I sent this woman a Moneygram for $150.  The woman from Vinnitsa I was meeting was unexpectedly hospitalized September 17, 2008, had surgery on the 18th and on the 19th I notified Lyudmila that, on doctor's orders, we would not be coming to Yalta on September 27th, as planned - 9 days away.  Lyudmila, first, offered to return $100 of the $150.  That would have been acceptable to me.  The link in my original post contains the actual e-mails.  She had 3 weeks that I was still in Ukraine to return the money to me or, as she offered, to have her son in Kyiv return the money to a friend of mine, also in Kyiv.  Not a penny was returned and the runaround became insulting.
I posted this because I am sure that some people may find this warning useful and may not want to send a deposit to Lyudmila at Yalta Apartments. 
I have spent 25 weeks in Ukraine and rented nearly 20 apartments.  I have only had problems twice.

However, there are others who insist on inflammatory skepticism, name calling , serving beer to the pissing match, etc.  It is really too bad that adults think they need to defame someone over unsubstantiated stories - especially from Jack Bragg who was not even in the same country at the time the alleged "incidents" occurred.  Note that I did not ask Jack for a refund of the $500+ paid for the lame party I attended in Lugansk - I was curious and I took a chance.  My mistake.  I asked for a refund of the money paid in advance for an apartment I would not be using. 

Jack rants and raves about the apartment's location and that I offered it to other guys when I decided the tour was not for me.  His people picked the location, not me.  And it was his assistant, Galina, who told me that it might be easier to see if someone else wanted it than to get a refund.  If Jack decides he doesn't like you - and we have never met - his over-the-top tirades include his own people's selection of an apartment location as my fault and taking the advice of his staff as my fault.  So ... in addition to my warning about Yalta apartments ... be careful who you do business with.
I have no desire to get into a public "pissing match".  It is, frankly, ridiculous and proves nothing.  The issue of an apartment vendor ripping off a list member is, hopefully, interesting to the "silent majority".  And just as hopefully, the negative personal stuff is not. 

Ciao, everybody, I'm movin' on
David

[Jack]

WARNING:  This reply could be considered long and boaring to some.  If you are short of time, have important things to do, you may not want to read.

Hi Everybody,
I had a horrible experience with Lyudmila and Yalta Apartments. 

I have rented over a dozen apartments in Kyiv, 3 in Yalta, 2 in Zaporozhye, 2 in Vinnitsa, one in Dnepropetrovsk, one in Sevastopol and one in Lugansk.  The only problem I have had prior to this was the one in Lugansk arranged by Jack Bragg. 

[/color][/b]

Such nastiness for $150. 

Hey Jack since he is calling you out in his post.. care to respond?

Jack and I had it out last year over the apartment in Lugansk.  I didn't like the "tour" and decided to leave.  I had paid for 4 days and only used one night when I realized the "tour" wasn't for me - wound up using 2 nights so I could get a better train time.  I asked him to refund $80 (of $160) and the *snip* hit the fan ;-)
David

[/color][/b]

I only mentioned Jack Bragg because that is the only other time I have had an issue with an apartment.  And I only said I had a problem - no name calling or personal attacks.  That's the problem with Jack - if you complain he gets personal and rants and raves. 

[/color][/b]




For those here on RWD who do not know all this was discussed on a few other Russian discussion boards last year. For those few of you interested in reading this thread you can read my reply to David when he wrote me about how unhappy he was about not getting a refund from the flat owner.


Where is the name calling?  Where is the ranting and raving he is talking about?  Below is my reply to David. I think I am quite calm and to the point with my replies.


I will admit that as this progressed, as I talked with more of the men on the tour and they told me about David, as the ladies supporting the men told me more about David, the agencies that David had previousley used told me about his actions with them, the more I learned, yes, the madder I got.



 
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Bragg
To: KyivTrip
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: First Nightmare


    Hi Jack,


Hey David,


 
I hope you are well and recovering if you have not recovered already.


Recovery has taken a few hic-cups.  Thought I was doing well, but blood level dropped last week, and now a new pain in the middle of the chest, some lung damage it seems.


 
FYI - I rented an apartment in Dnipro, decided to go to Kyiv, and got two nights refunded.  Rented an apartment in Kyiv, decided to go to Zaporozhye and got 2 nights refunded. 


David and these are nice flats on, or with a few minutes walk of Karl Marx and Khershatyk?  This is good news.  Even though I personally know many flat owners, once a flat owner is given money very few will return the money if a man decides to leave early.  

I am sure your friends would like to rent these flats out more often and I would love to be able to work with these two flat owners in Dnepropetrovsk and Kiev "IF" the flats are on or within a 7 minute walk of Karl Marx or Khershatyk.  We will not put our clients 20-25 minutes walk from the center.  If they are willing to go 20 minutes walk or further from the center they will have to get these flats on there own.  So if the flats you are talking about are in the center, I would love to be able to help your friends but sending them many more clients.  I hope you will share there contact information.



The people I deal with are honest and don't want my money for services I have not used. 


Yes I agree, dealing with honest, ethical and people with good morals are one of the many secrets to success in dealings in Ukraine and Russian people.



I was surprised when you told me the people you deal with do not return money for unused services. 


I am quite surprised that this surprised you.  It is not only quite common, it is the norm, not the exception.  With all your experience I am surprised this surprised you.  But then again if your dealing with flats 20-25 minutes walk from the center, this might be something those flat owners do.  I personally feel our clients are much safer in the center of the center, where foreigners do not stand out, than being in the suburbs of the city where all the locals know if there is some foreigner staying in a certain flat.   And in addition to the money most guys spend on taxi's getting them from their flat 20 minutes away to the center, and most guys are going, coming, two-three times a day to the center, the $15-$20 a day savings is gone.  But most importantly is the time.  15-20 minutes to the center, back home, to the center again, back home that night.  A guy could easily lose an hour a day just traveling from flat to center.  Time is the greatest commodity that we must conserve and use as efficiently as possible.  A guy can recover his money, he cannot recover his time. 



You need to find better people to work with because it is not fair to subject your own clients to this type of thievery.


I agree, it's always best to work with good people. I hope to be able to use some of your good people. 

And I will respectfully disagree with your words and term of thievery. In your case you made a commitment to rent a flat for four days.  The flat owner, after you arrived, approved the flat, left the city and went to there country dacha for four days.   You were not having a good time, you wanted to leave early.  You wanted the flat owner to give you back two days rent because you were changing your commitment from four days to two days and you expect the flat owner to refund you.  You can call it thievery David but I will not.



They could do better on their own dealing with honest people directly.


David my clients are not prohibited from dealing directly with any flat owners or hotels if they want.  I will assist them in anyway, like we did for you.  Most the other guys on tour wanted to stay in the hotel, you wanted a flat, no problem.   Our guys can deal directly with any flat owner they want, or they can ask us for help in locating a flat.  You could have dealt with any flat owner you wanted.  I did not say you had to get a flat from us, you asked if I could get you one and I said sure, we have several nice flats in the center. They were priced from $50 to $60 and you said no, that was to much.  We did not have any other flats that were not in the center.  You insisted getting something away from the center so we began to look for you and we found something for $40 (or $45 I forgot) some 20 minutes walk from the center and you said you would take it.



I am disappointed beyond words at my experience with you.  


And of course you got my earlier reply in how greatly disappointed I was in your actions.



We discussed, in detail, what I would have to pay "extra" for:  translators and my apartment.  I told you that I would not use translators, so that left the apartment.  It was NEVER said that I would have to pay extra for the bus or pay the introduction fees the agencies charge every Tom, Dick and Harry off the street.


David, I assume you can read.  It is very clearly stated on the website that each person must pay for his own transfer fee's, and I indicate such as bus, as well they must pay for any private meetings.  Your failure to read what is clearly written and stated is obviously your problem.


 
I prefer the train at 20% of what Galina wanted for the bus from Kharkov to Lugansk and I definitely do not need anyone's help to pay agency fees. 


Then WHY did you not take the train.  Every other person who rode the bus from Kharkov to Lugansk paid except you.  You were the exception.  All other guys on tour paid there share of the bus expense except you. 

Why should we have to provide your transportation for free?  Why did you not take a bus or train to Lugansk?



I - and anyone else - can do this on my own.  I don't do it, actually.  You know that I pre-write and get contact info and arrange my own meetings directly.


Then David, why did you not do that this time.  Why did you not call and arrange your own meetings?  Why this time for God's sake did you decide to have someone else call and arrange your meetings if this is something you have always done in the past?



I do not pay agencies for one-hour meetings with women I have had no contact with.  I did this at your urging for the experience of seeing how this MO would work.  


Ok, then you tried something new for the first time as I understand.



Anna from Dnipro met me in Kyiv and we flew to Simferopol and spent several days together in Yalta.  I paid NO fees - only for a half-dozen letters at $5 each. 


David, if you are dealing directly with a woman WHY would you pay for any fee's?  Of course you would not.  All our guys on tour who are dealing directly with ladies, dealing with ladies they have direct contact with, none of these guys pay for any fee's either.  This is quite common.

And if you pay $5 for each letter why did you say my fee of charging you $5 for sending a letter was to much?  And by the way, you still owe me $5 for the letter you had me send.  Please send to Jack Bragg, 1614 S. Broadway #110, Carrollton, TX 75006, Thanks.



I met Elena in Zaporozhye and we spent a week together.  I went back to her for my last 2 weeks.  Again, I paid no agency fees - just a few letters until i got her phone number.  I also met 2 other women - NO FEES.


AGAIN, NO man that I know of has to pay any type fee to meet any lady that he has direct contact with.  You are not the exception here David. Most men do not pay any type fee to meet any lady they have been writing and have direct contact with.

Now if you have interest in meeting a new lady for the first time and she is with an agency, then of course you must expect to pay the agency a fee to help arrange for this meeting.  When one considers the cost to buy an address (varies from $7 to $15), the cost to write and send letters, a $20 meeting fee is not out of line and actually can be cheaper than buying address and writing several letters.



You lied to me.  You can say that you DIDN'T say I wouldn't have to pay for the bus and the meetings but that is just a cowardly rationalization. 


David, it is stated in Black and White!  What must you pay for was clearly stated in the description of the Fall 2007 tour.


Pricing for Spring Trip

You will see the prices of the Group Tour listed below. This Fall Group Tour will consist of seven cities that we will have parties in. For anyone attending any two cities the price will be $1195. For three cities the price will be $1695. Four cities $2095. Five cities $2495. Six cities $2888. Seven cities $3350. We will not have parties in Odessa or Kiev but will help you to meet the ladies there that you have interest in.

What must you pay for and what our fee covers? You must pay your own airfare, transfer fee's (train/bus tickets, airport pick-ups), private meetings, food and lodging.



David, can you read?   Look, "You must pay your own airfare, private meetings, your own transfer fee's (airport pick-ups, train/bus tickets)"     bus tickets David!!!!    This is nothing new.  Been this way since our first tour in 2000.



I talked to some of the other fellows and  they were equally surprised at the continued dunning for more $$.  They were in a more vulnerable position than I, and I saw them give in and pay, pay, pay.  Disgusting.  Fortunately for me I had my own plan underway and went back to it.  I feel sorry for the others who relied on you to the exclusion of a "plan B".


Well David, I guess this can turn into some real mud slinging.  You should hear what most of these guys said about you.  It was pretty bad and due to your actions I had to apologize to several of them as I previously told you



I suggest that you refund the $80 for the two nights of the apartment I didn't use and consider a further adjustment as well.  It is not my fault that you deal with dishonest people and I hope you are not going to defend them.


David, we have never dealt with this flat owner before.  We never rent flats to clients 20-25 minutes from the center.  We had to search to find you a flat for $40 (or $45, I forgot) because you would not pay $50 to be in the center.   We think this flat owner is a good and honest person. 

Of course I will defend a flat owner I do not know who gave up there nice flat for four days and went to there country dacha during these four days.




The party was absolutely NOT as represented and I got nothing out of it. 


Wow!   Eleven guys at the Lugansk party and one out of eleven guys did not like the party.  Somehow I am not surprised.



Time is valuable when I am in Ukraine and interrupting my own trip to meet your tour in Kharkov and then continue on to Lugansk stole valuable time from me.  It really isn't the money - it is the deception and the lost time. 

If you refuse to acknowledge these problems and offer me some sort of refund, I will tell it as I see it to those I know on the lists.  That is not a threat - some people ask my opinion and I will not be able to remain neutral if you think you can justify what you did.



David I am very proud of the effort and time we gave you.  I have no problem with sharing all my e-mails and showing all our efforts and going over all aspects of your trip. I have no problem in telling it as I saw it, and as I heard from several people as to some of the things you did. Four different individuals have said they would tell of there experience with you with one disgusting act you committed. This is not a threat as some people ask me about some of the bad types  of guys we have had on our trips and some of the actions these guys have done under the pretense of looking for a good Russian bride.

Jack

Why some people on these lists twist things, assume the worst, call names and make character attacks, I'll never understand.  It lowers the quality of the discussion and prevents many people from participating.  I try to be positive and constructive - even if I am making a complaint ;-)

[/color][/b]


"Lyudmila is a liar and a thief."


"LYUDMILA LEONIDOVA   the thief in Yalta"


Update, Nov 6, 2008 - I have been advised by several people who have responded to my story that Lyudmila does not have an office, uses only a cell phone and only accepts cash.  It is not a properly "registered" business. 



"Call names and make character attacks"   

The pot calling the kettle black David?

Jack rants and raves about the apartment's location and that I offered it to other guys when I decided the tour was not for me.  His people picked the location, not me. 

[/color][/b]


"His people picked the location, not me"



----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: Hello David


Hi Jack,

I am guessing that I can get an apartment for 4 nights (10th -13th Lugansk; 14th - 17th Dnipro) for $35 - $40 a night - let's say $150 for 4 nights.  Assume I join you in Lugansk and go with you to Dnipro and Zap from the 10th to the 20th - I would expect to spend $400 for an apartment, for example. 

Thanks,
David



----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Hello David


Hi Jack,

OK - there is a flight from Kyiv to Lugansk on Sunday, Sept 10.  I would have to get my own apartment, anyway, right ?  But you can give me some contacts.

I usually rent longer term and it is easier to get a deal, but for 5 nights I have to bite the bullet.  I know you must think I'm cheap, but I won't argue with someone over $5 a night for just 5 nights. Bedroom/ balcony/ full kitchen ?  How about a washing machine ?  Phone ?
David     



----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: Hello David


Hi Jack,

The $525 is a go - thank you - that is very generous.  Let's pencil in meeting in Lugansk.  I'll plan on getting there Sunday and I will want an apartment.  And I like getting up and having my coffee w/milk and bread and butter and jam.  Bedroom w/ big bed - balcony for smoking.

And when I said 20 minutes I meant "at the most".  I don't mind walking, and out of the dozen or so women I've met only one had a car - so they are used to walking or taking the mashrutka.

Can you get me a guitar in Lugansk ?  Preferably Western box/ bronze wound or silk and steel strings. 

David


----- Original Message -----
From: "KyivTrip" <kyivtrip@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re:


> Jack's people got me a nice apartment in Lugansk within my $40 budget.




David, we picked a flat, 20 minutes from center, as you had asked, that had a balcony, a big bed with phone. AND your guitar.    We found what YOU asked for.

Their was nothing wrong with the flat, it was what you had asked for. Why should the flat owner refund you for two days when you decided you wanted to leave early.  And how does she not giving you a refund make her dishonest?

So ... when I asked for my $80 back

[/color][/b]



David, let's look at how you asked for this refund,.....



----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:16 AM
Subject: First Nightmare


I suggest that you refund the $80 for the two nights of the apartment I didn't use and consider a further adjustment as well.  It is not my fault that you deal with dishonest people and I hope you are not going to defend them.

If you refuse to acknowledge these problems and offer me some sort of refund, I will tell it as I see it to those I know on the lists.  That is not a threat - some people ask my opinion
............



So, if I were to send you $80, plus consider offering you other unspecified adjustments, you would say nothing.    BUT if I refuse to offer you some sort of refund, you will tell all to those you know on the lists.

The elderly flat owner from Lugansk who rented you her flat for four days, she left her flat in Lugansk for her country dacha for these four days, and now she is dishonest for not wanting to refund you for two days because you wanted to leave early.

Now if their was no water, no electricity, if the area was unsafe or the flat not clean, you would would have a legitmate complaint. But it was your choice to leave early, not the flat owner. Why should she have to refund you when she lived up to her part of the bargin?

And David, although you say your demands for compensation it is not a threat, that's how I see it.  I wonder how many others you have conned, you have blackmailed, into sending you "refunds" for you to be quiet.  Well David, bring it on, you can sing like a bird. My only mistake was introducing you to my staff and the other men on the trip.

....over unsubstantiated stories - especially from Jack Bragg who was not even in the same country at the time the alleged "incidents" occurred. 

[/color][/b]

Jack started a name calling *snip* storm talking about things he doesn't even know - HE WASN'T EVEN THERE. 

[/color][/b]



"He wasn't even there."    "the alleged "incidents"



So what these Ukraine women told me, what these American men told me about you, because I was not there, that makes their comments and experience with you not valid?

I do not recognize the events he states as fact - and I was there. 

[/color][/b]



Ok, I was not there, how can I know these were facts?  Let's look and use only what you have written David, see if you want to try to deny the fact you like to show young Ukraine girls photos of your then (you can bet she's long gone by now) girlfriends p_ _ _ y.

I told Galina (Jack's assistant) I would be leaving Lugansk and asked if I could get some money back for the apartment.  She wanted to know why I was leaving and I told her I had just left a nice woman in Zaporozhye and a bird in the was worth 2 in the bush, so to speak.  Naturally she was curious and, after a couple of questions from her, I mentioned I had some pictures.  I showed her the pictures in my camera. 

[/color][/b]



Ahhhh, so you admit to showing Galina your photos. I was not there. Galina called and told me you had shown her these photos. It seems that even though I was not there that she was correct.


And what type of photos do you admit to showing?......



----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: First Nightmare


There were a couple of photos of Lena cooking borscht in her underwear


There were a couple of shots taken of each other when we were fooling around with the camera on the bed

...................



And with regards to you showing these photos to Galina what did you write about her feelings to these photos?....

she said she liked them. 

[/color][/b]



I can assure you David that Galina, nor the 21 year old Valentina that you showed these same photos to, did not appreciate you showing them these photos. As Galina told me, you showing her these photos made her feel a little dirty. 

You are disgusting David, plain and simple.  You are the type person we hear about when these good Ukraine and Russians talk about an "ugly American".  You are a disgrace to all American men seeking a Russian/Ukraine bride.

I spoke to a couple of them.  They get a gift for coming to the party and had nothing better to do - not, necessarily interested in meeting Jack's clients.     

[/color][/b]


What an absolute lie. I think it's time to try to establish, determine, David's credibilty.  Ladies attending our parties are not given a gift to show up. We do have one or two games during our parties. The lady, or ladies, who win's the contest will be given a gift. Not every woman attending, not 95% of the women attending, are given gifts as David is trying to elude to.



Even though David only paid for services in Lugansk, when telling David he would need to pay for the bus ride David told me he thought the bus ride from Kharkov to Lugansk was free.  When David heard he had to pay for private meetings he said he thought they were free. I asked David if he read on the website the details of the tour and what was included and not included.

David replied "What website"?




----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: My mistake


OK - I did ride from Kharkov to Lugansk on the tour bus.  But I would not have gotten on the bus if I had known that I had to pay extra.


David wrote " When I was told I would have to pay for meetings with women I was surprised"



I wrote David back and asked him did he not read what was posted on our website. It is clearly written what you have to pay for private meetings. It is clearly written that you must pay your own transfer fee's (train/bus tickets, airfare).

His reply,....




----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: My mistake


You never referred me to a website.




Never referred you to a website? 



David from Denver said he sent me a check.
Funny thing, the check never arrived.
I asked David what address he sent the check to?  Look at his reply. 




----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: women


Hi Jack,
No - the check has not cleared so it is floating around somewhere.  I didn't dig through your old e-mails for your adresss - I used the one on the website.




So David did not know that he would have to pay for private meetings, David did not know that the bus ride was not part of the tour price?  And David say's he did not know this is because he did not read any of the tour information on the website because he did not know of my website?

Well, oh honest Kyiv Trip,... caught!  My previous reply back to David.




From: Jack Bragg
To: KyivTrip
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: My mistake

You know David once you begin telling lie's they began to snowball.  You forget one of your previous lie's and then low and behold your caught!

So I never referred you to my website?

David, how can you explain this,........

 
----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: women


Hi Jack,

What about Elena 773 from your site ?

David



or what about this,.....



From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 8:58 AM
Subject: women


Hi Jack,
I hope you are well. 

There is also one girl on your site that I REALLY like:  Elene 773
David




----- Original Message -----
From: "KyivTrip" <kyivtrip@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:37 PM


Even if I had read your site, "bus tickets" to me, are tickets you buy at the bus station or from a travel agent.





David say's he did not know the conditions of the tour, what he had to pay for, because he did not know about my website.

But yet, he knows about this one woman he would like to meet from this same website he says he knows nothing about.  





If you complain about his agency you "attack" it.  He repeats this over and over.  Not only does he have a victim mentality (his own clients victimize him) but he has a very innacurate recollection of what happened regarding his dealings with me



ahhh, talking bad about me again David?



"This, once again, shows Kevin's mentality."




Kevin!   Ohhhh, not me?   

David from Denver is talking about Kevin Hayes with Kherson Girls. In my opinion the most honest agency owner in this industry and David from Denver also has bad things to say about him.

Hummm, I wonder if Kevin stood up to David's threat as well? Seems those that do stand up to his threats are bad, lying, thieving agencies.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Hayes" <kevin@KHERSONGIRLS.COM>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: Reply to David (Kyiv Trip) post II


> Dave
> I'm going to have side on Jack on this issue as you did the same thing in my
> agency and it was the main reason I kicked you out of my agency.  You try to
> nickel and dime everyone to death.  Always asking for a discount. Requesting
> refunds for services that aren't completed yet and then complaining 3-4
> times a day..  I took a lost when you where my client and refunded you gave
> me just to get rid of you. If you had showed up and taken nude pictures of
> my ladies and shown them around I would had called the police.  Jack site
> clearly states what is provided by him and what isn't. Your defense that you
> didn't understand or had a different understanding of what a bus was between
> the city is your fault and just an excuse to cheat someone out of paying.
> Jack site clearly states the clients pay for transportation and accommodations. 
> Just like my site does.
> Stop expecting everyone to give you a "Deal". What they need to
> give you a is kick in the "As###" for being a sex tourist. Showing a nude
> picture of one of the ladies is a typical sign of someone who isn't looking
> for a wife.  Every agency you seem to use regrets it the day you leave. All
> I got was complaint from the agents in my network about your visits they all
> regretted that they allowed you to still come to their office after I
> removed you from mine. 
> 
> You need to respect the ladies.  Respect the apartment owners and Respect
> the business owners.  Then you might get some respect yourself.  Don't use
> the ladies for your own sexual fantasies.
>
> Jack I feel for you as I went though the same problem with David and his
> attacks on the list last year.
>
> thanks
> Kevin Hayes
> www.khersongirls.com





----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Hayes" <kevin@KHERSONGIRLS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: Agency gets scammed !!!


David
 
I posted because what you did to Jack the same thing you did too me. It is
all about the Money with you. Don't say otherwise. You are the discount
King.  You even cheated jack out of money for the bus ride.   All of your
complaints are about discount request and how to bypass paying for services. 
Anyone reading your post can see this.

David, You can't really believe that you deserve free services and have the
right to bypass paying for services. Being cheap will only find you a cheap
lady.  Your letters to the ladies talk about how good life will be with you.
but I don't see it if it eating at a nice restaurant to you would must be
McDonalds to keep within your budget.

You stated you don't need agencies. I've stated that agencies don't need
you. So at least we agree on this issue.

As I stated I wish you best of luck in your discounted search for a
discounted lady.

thanks
Kevin Hayes



----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Trojacek"
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 2:55 PM
Subject: Fwd: Re: First Nightmare


>I am having some trouble with all this.  I am trying to understand how a a
> legitimate search for a wife can deteriorate to a pic of any lady in her
> panties with her back turned, and then one of a cloudy look downstairs, and
> how it can possibly be considered wholesome viewing material for anyone.
> My question would be did you have permission from the lady to show these
> pics?  Jeez guys, c'mon!  This is pure and simple mongering...period!  Don't
> mongerers do that, take pics of their triumphs and broadcast them wherever,
> yet most are sensitive enough to get permission from the lady.   I am
> surprised Galina didn't hit you in the head with a  stick.  I dated 3 UA
> women, took jillions of pictures, and only one was suggestive.  It was of
> one of them laying face down topless on a beach in DR.  I awoke her from her
> nap and showed it to her, she laughed, and then I hit the delete button.
> Why?  Because I respected her enough to know that if she wanted such pics as
> available for general viewing she was perfectly capable of electing to do so
> herself.
>
> Trust and respect has to start somewhere for a solid marriage, and this to
> me, throws it out completely.  Sorry guys, I could never condone such
> behavior.
>
> Rick Trojacek



----- Original Message -----
From: "DobraDavid" <dobradavid@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 10:54 AM
Subject: Re:


> You shared those photos with others including strangers?
>
> You are disgusting.
>
> DD



I remember one thing Kevin asked David when this was being discussed a year ago.  David talks about all these bad agencies, so Kevin asked David if their was a single agency he had ever worked with that would recommend him as a client.  David could't name one agency he had ever worked with that would recommend as a client.

Now folks, you got to be a pretty bad person when every agency you have ever worked with will not work with you again.

Such nastiness for $150. 

And it is not the money, $150 in this case - we all know that these trips cost thousands of $$. 

[/color][/b]



It's not about the money!


Look at the time and effort you have gone to in trying to collect this $150 and you say it's not the money?


September 19, I send an e-mail to Lyudmila
September 27  I asked Lyudmila to return my money for
the reservation starting
My e-mail response of September 29, 2008
My response on Monday, September 30
My response on October 1, 2008
On October 2, I sent another e-mail to Lyudmila
On October 6, I sent another e-mail to Lyudmila
On October 12, I sent another e-mail
On October 13, I called Lyudmila
On October 15, I call Lyudmila
On October 17, I try to call Lyudmila several times
On October 18, I called Lyudmila from a payphone

October 20, 2008 I fly home without one cent from Lyudmila

 

And it's not the money?    Sureeeee David.

I made a decision: the morning after the party when I was told I must pay for meetings with 3 women PLUS interpreters PLUS whatever they might order at the restaurant, I made a choice. 

[/color][/b]



David, the women you choose spoke English, you told us no ladies who could not speak English.   Their were no ladies from those you choose that we had set meetings with who needed an interpreter.

You could meet the ladies over juice, over drinks, over coffee, over a light snack. You determine where you want to meet. None of your meetings were set to meet at any restaurant. You are again embellishing the truth.

Maybe you were fearful of having to take a woman for a meal. Heaven Forbid!

It has been my experience in Ukraine that most of these agencies do NOT accept credit cards - just like Jack Bragg.

[/color][/b]


"Just like Jack Bragg", don't take credit cards.


Another David from Denver lie. They just keep adding up.

David, check your e-mail to me from July 25th 2007 and my reply,.......



----- Original Message -----
From: KyivTrip
To: Jack Bragg
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Hello David


You don't take credit cards ?


----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Bragg
To: KyivTrip
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: Hello David

You don't take credit cards ?


Yes, we take credit cards



 

And the prices were higher than if I had arranged the services myself.

[/color][/b]



Hummmm, from David, ...."Jack's people got me a nice apartment in Lugansk within my $40 budget."


David, are you lying to us now, or were you lying to us then?



David, I think most people will see you for what you are. I am only sadden to know that most the future Russian women you meet will not know the type person you are until you have wasted a lot of their time.

At least every agency that you have worked with in the past know of you and you will not be harming any ladies from these agencies.

[Vaughn]

I have no business relationship nor personal friendship with either Jack or David, and my
opinion is based solely on my own travel and accomodations experience, beginning in
the late 1960s...

Established hotels/motels usually post their refund policy, and in general, abide by it.
In the case of private accomodations, be it a foreign flat, lakeside cabin, dacha or
bunkhouse - where arrangements are usually made well in advance - there usually
is no refund policy. I booked a flat on my first journey to Mari-El, for 5 nights and
paid in advance. Elvira and I decided to pare our stay to 3 nights and drive to
Nizhni Novgorod to meet her Mama....  I never even approached the ladies at
Sweethearts Agency, who arranged the flat's availablity, for a refund.

I believe David was fortunate to have gotten any refund at all from prior changed
plans....personally, I don't have any trouble with Jack's stance at all.

Vaughn

[Sculpto]

Jack...

BRAVO!

and where is Lyudmilla.. I want to give her a hug. 

[UTRO]

Well David. Why don't you just suck it all up? Complaining like this on RWD is like living in a glass house and throwing stones at the walls! What's the point of this Thread except to piss people off and show how Cheap you are? Man, you agreed to go on one of Jack's Trips, which I personally wouldn't. No offense Jack, I like to do my own thing. David, it's the Ukraine, not the USA. If you change your mind so close before a Trip over an apartment rental, or bailing on a tour after accepting the Contractual Conditions, what right do you have asking for your money back? These people have done what you paid them to do.
Actually, you know what? I'd be pissed and blaming everyone for my problems if I'd rented "over 20 Apartments in the Ukraine", since 2005! God man, how much money have you spent?? Do you really think you should be making a point of this?    There really has to be something wrong with you... Twenty apartments in 3 years? Also, I commend you for the Support you gave your Fiancee Lilia after her stroke. Didn't you Love this woman? What happened to your Love and Commitment as her Fiance? Care to explain? Honestly, I think your story is full of Kakashka.

[William3rd]

Try to bail out in the middle of a tour or cruise here in the states because you feel like it and. . .uhhh. . . how much money would you get back? None, right? Even with trip insurance? right?

Whining about $80? ohhhh Puuulllll EEEEZZZE!!!