St.Pete's Trip Oct 2008

[daveyj]

I recently concluded my first visit to eastern europe.  It had always been in the back of my mind as a fantasy or dream, ever since 8 years ago a Russian girlfriend of mine (my first Russian girlfriend, and yes she blew my mind) told me I should go to Russia on an Anastasia social and find a wife (we both knew our own relationship was short term).

This past august I had made some changes in my priorities in life, and found myself with free time for the first time in a long time.  In early Sept I made the decision it was time for a vacation (my first in 7 years) and I resolved to go to Russia.  I booked the trip, began learning Russian from Rosetta Stone  (my pronunciation of "horse jumps" is exquisite!), and signed up with an agency (reviewed elsewhere on the board)

Some general observations about my visit to Russia:

-4" high heels are considered suitable footwear for woman all professions including airport customs
-blond peroxide and bangs are the hairstyle of choice for women
-on the other hand, men appear to disdain such girlish cosmetics as "shampoo" and "conditioner"
-cars may be parked anywhere, street or pavement, and at any angle
-if you look at people on the street, they will look right back at you
-all cars are taxis, simply make eye contact with your arm raised and a car will take you where you want to go (for a fee of course)
-mainstream movies are frequently scheduled at 4am in cinemas
-the sidewalks are surprisingly clear of gum and cigarettes
-people may smoke cigarettes anywhere they chose - literally...anywhere and everywhere
-very few people speak even the most basic English (at least not to me!lol)

Ok, enough of my tour guide observations. 

***

I stayed with www.oksanas.net and they were lovely to deal with and I highly recommend them.

Unfortunately, while visiting St.Pete's I had a poor experience with the agency I had engaged and only met a total of 3 ladies during my 10 day visit.  In hindsight I should have been more pro-active and gotten in touch with other agencies when it became clear that things weren't working out with Arcardia

However, by chance on my second night I met a lovely lady "Y" and fell head over heels. She was not from the agency, nor was she seeking a foreign husband.  It was simply a magical fluke encounter.

Our first night we spoke for two hours (or rather I spoke, and mimed, and drew pictures), and she worked to improve her basic english.  Then she agreed to go to dinner with me and spoke for two more hours.  Our second meeting was similar, as was our third.

I had brought a small stuffed toy from home, with the intention of symbolically giving it to someone if I felt I had a special connection.  On our last night I gave it to "Y" and she was overjoyed - it was a beautiful sight to see how happy she was, and that she appreciated the symbolism.  I told her of my wish to return to see her which delighted her, she enquired about my interest in visiting a "hypothetical" russian village (her family is from a village close to St.Peter's), she talked about me meeting her friends on my next vist, she told me she had talked about me to her mother, etc, etc.  We spoke about the tourist visa process for her to visit me (naively I know realize) and parted as friends...

Why did we part as "friends"?  Well, on our third meeting she showed my her russian facebook profile and casually (bizarrely) pointed out a picture of her "boyfriend".  This was a pretty big surprise for me (although our time had been platonic apart from a kiss on the cheek at the end of the evening, so she had not led me astray nor behaved inappropriately).  We spoke about it the boyfriend briefly and casually and the sense I got is that the boyfriend is not a serious relationship.

Some details/facts

-she is 25, very smart, very practical and good with manging people, street smart, urban, went to university, works very hard at multiple jobs, and is frugal and honest and supports her family - most certainly not a scammer
-I am 40, highly educated, smart about people, urban, artistic, never married, and she is only the 3rd girl in my life who's made me feel this way.  Coincidentally she is the same astrological sign as my last serious girlfriend (a gorgeous lithuanian whose name is tatooed on my shoulder) and also my mother (!).  Yes, I am completely smitten.

I came back home, floating on a cloud.  However I now find myself in a tricky situation, and I would welcome any advice.  I must admit I'm appropriate fearful of your responses, so please go easy on me...

My first day back I received an email from her and she enquired about the details of the toursit visa process (at this point I still thought it would be relatively simple to bring her for a visit).  I responded in detail (I work in insurance, so I am detail oriented). 

Well, I think I scared the beejesus out of her with the various requirements/etc, as she promptly went email silence for a week and a half. 

I followed up with a couple of emails, and she eventually responded confirming that the visa paperwor had indeed overwhelmed her, but also that she'd been busy, and in fact had moved from St.Pete's back in with her family in their nearby village

I replied with what I now think was perhaps another overly long email, saying no problem about the visa, I'll just come an visit her, and since then (10 days) I've not heard from her.

So here is my situation.

In the last few days I've been studying up on cultural differences between Russian and Western women.  I've joined Elena's Models and have been reading her book, which I've found quite useful.

I'm not really sure how to proceed with "Y". 

If she was a western girl, I'd figure I've come on too strong and I'd just leave her be for a month, and maybe send her a happy holidays email, but otherwise just leave the ball in her court.

If I had met her through a Russian marriage agency, I'd figure that she's opened the door pretty wide already, and from 8000km away I need to keep up the chase and so  I'll just continue to woo her gently (the occasional funny photo, a brief email, provide perspective on my life here, etc).   Nothing intense, but just show her I'm serious, in case I've got competition from another guy perhaps.

But in this situation, "Y" wasn't looking for a western man, and indeed may already have a boyfriend (although I figure the move home probably means the end of that?)

Having read Elena's book, some thoughts have come to mind:
-maybe "Y" is overwhelmed/insecure and thinks she is not good enough for a jetsetting bachelor like me?
-maybe I've been too complimentary, and treated her too well, and she's not accustomed to it?
-maybe she thinks there must be something wrong with a 40 yr old man with a good job, never married, who seems head over heels with some younger girl from a small village
-maybe she's just really not into the idea of relocating, or a relationship with some guy 8000km away, and now that I'm out of sight...welll...out of sight, out of mind?
-maybe the boyfriend is a bigger part of her life than I realized

I dunno.

I realize that no-one can know for sure.  But if I've missed any sort of obvious cultural clues here I welcome suggestions.  (Russian ladies? Feedback, suggestions welcome, just go easy on me :-)

Thanks in advance


ps.  I'm perfectly able to just let it all go, and move on to wooing ladies from Elena's Models.  But for me "Y" is one in a thousand.  It's so rare for me to meet someone like this, and right now it's hard to imagine writing letters or meeting other Russian ladies without first knowing where things stand with "Y" (But I sure don't want to email her "tell me why you aren't writing to me" because I think that is desperate and would just turn her off)

[Olga_Mouse]

-maybe she's just really not into the idea of relocating, or a relationship with some guy 8000km away, and now that I'm out of sight... welll... out of sight, out of mind?

I think this might be the real reason...

She wasn't looking for a foreign husband at all, as you said.

She was overwhelmed by the amount of paperwork needed for just a "simple" TOURIST visa.

If she is really a smart girl, she realised that international relationship & relocation will demand MUCH MUCH more dedication, time & effort than even this tourist visa...

... and maybe she's not willing to invest this time & these efforts in a "foreign husband" project right now?

[William3rd]

Well, I think I scared the beejesus out of her with the various requirements/etc, as she promptly went email silence for a week and a half. 

I followed up with a couple of emails, and she eventually responded confirming that the visa paperwor had indeed overwhelmed her, but also that she'd been busy, and in fact had moved from St.Pete's back in with her family in their nearby village

I replied with what I now think was perhaps another overly long email, saying no problem about the visa, I'll just come an visit her, and since then (10 days) I've not heard from her.

So here is my situation.


I'm not really sure how to proceed with "Y". 

I dunno.

I realize that no-one can know for sure.  But if I've missed any sort of obvious cultural clues here I welcome suggestions.  (Russian ladies? Feedback, suggestions welcome, just go easy on me :-)

Thanks in advance

How about you keep writing to her on a friendly basis for a while and just see what happens. If she keeps writing, then keep going. If not, then you know that it is not meant to be. Plan your next trip. For one thing, I think you are over analyzing the situation

[BC]

-she is 25, very smart, very practical and good with manging people, street smart, urban, went to university, works very hard at multiple jobs, and is frugal and honest and supports her family - most certainly not a scammer

That might be a hurdle..

[daveyj]

That might be a hurdle..

Sorry, a miststatement on my part.  She contributes money to her Mom, who has two teenagers at home.  But her Mom also works, and from my knowledge of "Y's" income I don't think it is that much cash and I would cover it if we got to that stage.

Thanks to the other's who've responded.  I'm processing the comments, (...and still holding out hope that it'll all work out in the end and I'm not going to be reduced to a mournful series of Saturday nights alone in bed with nothing but a bottle of JD and Sinead O'connor's "Nothing Compares to you" looping in the background.

[Diplomacy]

Well it could be that she has no internet in the village.  Just another idea to add.

[dispozo]

How about you keep writing to her on a friendly basis for a while and just see what happens. If she keeps writing, then keep going. If not, then you know that it is not meant to be. Plan your next trip. For one thing, I think you are over analyzing the situation

I agree....

Without really knowing the delays in letters keep writing. If she is not really interested in you, she will stop writing.

[Fogged]

Just a thought. If you admire this lady so much, why don't you or why didn't you ask for her phone number so you can keep in contact with her instead of emails? I know her English is basic as you had wrote but voice contact sure beats waiting on emails, especially if she possibly has no internet where she is living currently.

[Diplomacy]

If she has a boyfriend and caught her talking to him, I would not like to think about what could happen to her.  Be careful on that one.  That though is probably the reason she did not offer the phone number.

They are very macho men, capable of anything and law enforcement tends to blame the woman if she is beaten.  Of course the women on the board may so otherwise, but I hope they could edify what I say.  I spent time in a woman's center in Ukraine, and had information similar prior to my trip there.

I do not know him to be fair, but where there is smoke there is fire.

[daveyj]

Just a thought. If you admire this lady so much, why don't you or why didn't you ask for her phone number so you can keep in contact with her instead of emails?

I do indeed have her phone number, and she has mine.  Sure, I could call her, but if she has chosen not to write then I don't want to crowd her with phone calls.  Expecially since she may or may not answer, and may or may not be able to talk openly, and may or may not be able to express herself in english or understand me without my miming and stick drawings :-)

From the BF's photo, he doesn't seem like the violent type, besides which "Y" is an athletic girl and I reckon she could take him if needed.

Regarding her internet, in her last email to me she said "I have removed into the country to mum, the Internet is."  I read that as her having internet at home, but maybe she doesn't.  However one of her jobs is in an office as a programmer, and she is online all the time.  Unless maybe there are bigger things afoot, maybe she's broken up with the BF, quit one or more of her jobs, and moved in with her mom?  I dunno.

Eventually the truth of the matter will make itself apparent.  I was just hoping for someone to tell me some sort of ultimate truth about Russian women to reassure me about her (ie "if a Russian woman tells her mother about a man, then she is serious", or "if a Russian woman wants you to meet her friends, she is serious" etc.

thanks for the suggestions, folks, it's helpful even just to talk it out
d

[Sculpto]

Davey..

For the time being I would say try to keep your emotions in check.  Even though the internet is becoming more popular and its use widespread I think a lot of ladies are not accustomed to corresponding through the web.  Personally I do not think it is very romantic to send emails.

Speculating about what she is feeling or what her circumstances are, or, what her intentions were when she said nice things will just make you crazy, and that is not attractive.

Right now you are an interesting foreign friend, but, you are not part of her daily life nor have you entered into her emotional consciousness in a deep way.  Oddly we men seem to fall harder and faster than women do and my experience with RWs dictates that they take their sweet time getting to know someone.  I think their clocks run on a different pace than ours.

Unless her current boyfriend is serious about marriage he is not a factor in a potential relationship with you, except he is there and you are not.  Understanding the sceptical nature of the women she will not believe in you until you give her a good reason to do so, which essentially means going back to see her and only her.

Does she have the ability to chat using yahoo or some other prog?  Lots of people in Russia use ICQ.  If not for chat with cam with my girl we never would have come together.

Best of luck and keep breathing.  Try not to think about her.  (easier said than done)

[BillyB]

I'm not really sure how to proceed with "Y". 

How about telling her when she is available and doesn't have a boyfriend to contact you? There are plenty of very available and very single women out there. I don't see why you're so focused on one woman who can give you the email silent treatment for a week? You are definately not in love with her character or actions towards you as you question them. What is it that you so much like about her? Maybe you're in lust. Don't let the little head do the thinking.

[daveyj]

What is it that you so much like about her? Maybe you're in lust. Don't let the little head do the thinking.

A fair enough question.

I don't know how many erections I've had in my life. 40,000?  80,000? 
I don't know how many girls I have lusted for.  lol...40,000?  80,000?

But I do know that only two other girls before have made me feel this way, and I would marry either of them if they would have me. 

Sex is the easy part, by any reasonable measure I've enjoyed my share. Not boasting, just stating a fact.  But for me emotional intimacy is the hard part.  Actually enjoying someone's company and not getting bored - that is the hard part.

This girl, she fills me with a full body warmth, an everlasting small shy smile, and a damp softness in the eyes.

I reckon that labels are for groceries, and people deserve more than just a label.  So I'll just say that it is what it is.

[BillyB]

Daveyj,
  You're talking about your feelings in a teenager kind of way. Love does not conquer all. You told us earlier why you think you two parted as friends. Certainly based upon how you feel, parting as friends wasn't your idea. It was her idea of course that she told to you in words and/or in her actions. Of course if you got that tourist visa for her and a nice vacation, you'd have been dating her longer but my guess is the results would be the same. You'll still be parting as friends. Take the hint she gave you and move onto someone who feels the same about you as you do with her.

[daveyj]

Thx for the input BillyB.  I'll give it some thought.

[Faux Pas]

Thx for the input BillyB.  I'll give it some thought.

daveyj

Billy's words are on the money IMO. It would appear from your description that she may be telling you something you don't really want to hear. Of course there could be some other circumstances beyond hers or your control. If that were the case she would most likely tell you about it. There's a phrase that appears throughout this forum that "If she is into you....you'll know it". I would add a line to that. If she's not into you, you'll certainly suspect it.

[daveyj]

I've just received an short email from "Y".   

Hmmm...I had previously told her about the RWAbroad site...
http://www.russianwomenabroad.com/Index_en.php

I wonder if maybe she is now lurking on this board here and saw this thread...

I think Olga_Mouse and Sculpto got it right.   Things moved a bit fast when I was in town, but now that I'm a long ways away it's allowed doubts to creep in and I'm not there to reassure.

I'll stay in touch via brief, charming emails with the occasional photo, learn some more Russian, and visit again in a couple of months.

thx again
d

[Sculpto]

Davey.. call her.. even if you can't understand each other.. she will still like it and know you are thinking about her

[BillyB]

I'll stay in touch via brief, charming emails with the occasional photo, learn some more Russian, and visit again in a couple of months.

Visit her again in a couple of months? You want to visit another man's woman? Although she's not married, she made a commitment to another man. If you are able to get her to break her commitment with her current boyfriend and commit to you, it's not something to be proud about and don't be surprised when another man comes along and gets her to break her commitment with you.

I've seen guys chase ONE woman for years with no success. They don't know what "NO" means when a woman says it out loud or in her actions. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Look elsewhere. Visit someone else. If you want to write her as a friend, then do so. leave the "charm" out and don't try to damage the relationship she's currently in. Ask yourself if you had a girlfriend and a man came along and knew you two were in a relationship but tried to break your relationship for his selfish reasons, what would you think of him? Great guy or dirty rotten scoundrel?

If the woman you're after respects honorable men, she'd respect you if you told her that you aren't going to pursue her anymore since she has a commitment to another man. You can go to the Promt website and translate English to Russian so she understands fully what you're saying in your next email.

[daveyj]

BillyB,

You think it is dishonourable to pursue a girl who has a BF?  Really?? Now THAT sounds like a teenager.  

Seriously though, I know you have my best interests at heart and want me to be happy.  I appreciate your concern but I'll take my chances and live with the results. Thx anyway.
D

[Diplomacy]

He has clearly said there is a short list of women that make him feel this way.  The lady or him have not done anything physical, and she is not engaged or married.  She did not hide the fact she has a boyfriend.  I would say she has been pretty damn honest.

He does not seem to be under the allusion she is going to be open for certain to the whole thing.  He met other Russian women and did not find one that he had chemistry with.

If her boyfriend is not will to commit, then he takes a risk right?  If she is what you want, then go for it.  He knows the risk is great here.  It appears to be that she has fully disclosed.  Nobody wants to be lonely, and this boyfriend may be filling that void.

One minute life is going one way, next thing you meet a WM and enjoy his company.  Hard to say where it goes from there right?  She had never thought about such a relationship, and is clearly very busy.  Maybe she likes being chased, but not willing to be caught? 

He tries to put it is me or him out there right now, it is a bad mistake.  She is not secure or even sure what she wants out of the scenario.  Sure line up a few more while you visit again, but if you like what you see.  No reason to not let it play out IMO.

[Faux Pas]

BillyB,

You think it is dishonourable to pursue a girl who has a BF?  Really?? Now THAT sounds like a teenager.  

Seriously though, I know you have my best interests at heart and want me to be happy.  I appreciate your concern but I'll take my chances and live with the results. Thx anyway.
D

If she's not married, then she is certainly "in-play" for a pursuit from any honorable man IMHO. In this instance and from your description, to me she doesn't seem very interested. If you feel in your gut that she is, I say go for it but don't get too much emotional capital invested. Much too early from what you have to go on thus far. One common theme in many of these forum threads "communication" is heavily stressed.

[Ade]

daveyj,

the girl is obviously not into you, if she were she would not take weeks to respond to emails and no amount of paperwork would be a deterrent.  Also, the fact that she showed you a picture of her boyfriend is an obvious hint that she's taken and not at all interested in you romantically. Give your infatuation up (as that's what it is) and move on.

Oh, and btw, saying you're highly educated and mentioning astrology in the same paragraph will always raise a chuckle. 

[daveyj]

An update...

I took Sculpto's advice and called her.  I wrote out some things I wanted to say, got them translated, and then when I called I subjected this poor girl to some of the most poorly spoken Russian I am sure that she has ever heard.

I think she appreciated my effort, forgave my poor procunciation of Russian , and since then we've been in more regular email contact, and all is good.

Taking a step back, and looking at the big picture...

We had met first in person, which is a different type of communication than via written email, or even telelphone.  Shifting to email correspondance requires some adaptation, as it is a very different type of communication, less visceral, fewer visual semiotic signifiers (ie facial appearance, gesture, eye contact, etc)

I think that many others have encountered this same situation but in reverse.  Everything goes well emailing, or telephoning.  But when you meet in person, things feel awkward or maybe fall apart.

Anyway, I don't want to get this thread started again.  My original question was solely to solicit input about why she had gone email silent, and that's now been resolved and so I'm going to take the updates on my relationship with "Y" offline until/unless there are significant developments. 

I only post the update to aid others who might encounter a similar situation.  Thanks again to all those who posted (regardless of whether I agreed with your perspective or not)
D.

[roykirk]

If she's not married, then she is certainly "in-play" for a pursuit from any honorable man IMHO. In this instance and from your description, to me she doesn't seem very interested. If you feel in your gut that she is, I say go for it but don't get too much emotional capital invested. Much too early from what you have to go on thus far. One common theme in many of these forum threads "communication" is heavily stressed.

Well said, and I agree.  If she were married, it would be one thing.  But as a buddy said to me once, "Girls break up with boyfriends every day."  I'd never thought about it that way, but it made sense the more I thought about it.  Thinking back, I've "stolen" a lot of guy's girlfriends over the years (and no, not a one of them left me for someone else).  I always thought of it as either 1.  She wasn't really in to the boyfriend to begin with, 2.  He wasn't giving her enough attention/respect and she was looking for an excuse to move on, or 3.  It was never a serious relationship between either of them.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm fully aware some would say this makes me an a-hole, but I always looked at obtaining a girlfriend (especially a good one) like a competition.  As long as they weren't married, they were fair game.  Unless he was a big bruising sort of boyfriend.  Stayed away from those.