Some thoughts and discussion points

[Diplomacy]

I just think that there is enough information about what a WM would be watching for a GCG could act the part real easy.  She could be real sincere towards you as a means to a green card too.  Motivation and access to the internet is a dangerous combination.  This makes for an educated criminal, and yes IMO what they do is criminal.  Look at the emotional and physical toll one exacts on the man going through this.  Much worse than getting robbed at gun point, or coming home to find everything is stolen IMO.

It is a sad day when a woman's shelter which is designed to protect women from real abuse, is used to abuse another.  Does not surprise me one bit, our society is just getting worse and worse. 

I was happy to see the definitive trend and events were close in dv.  They should be pinned IMO.

Kind of interesting that one member finds Maxx's post on another site about the matter.  Maxx I am glad you now realize that you were committed to be a good husband, there is nothing you can do to make someone being committed to being a good wife.  It is a 2 way street, sure you can make the street longer on your side by trying and trying.  I hope life gets to a point you can find the one committed to being your wife.

The one point that I would like to see opinion on or advice, is how one explains and changes views of what one has earned in society.  I do not know any way to put it correctly. Socialism by definition is what is yours is mine.  Yes, in perfect form Socialism is great, but human nature does not allow for such a world IMO.  If there is nothing to gain, then why do more?  If there is not more money then why dream and innovate?  I guess one could do it for love of Country and the world, but I think that limits the amount of people who would do it IMO.
 

You have one side of the coin like Jack told me about a doctor who was only qualified to do massage therapy.  Did that, accepted it and worked toward becoming qualified for better employment.  The other side where it will never be enough. 

IMO that would be some of the reason for why some "feel"  they are entitled to more and not appreciative of what they get too.  Sure, we know that the government was saying one thing and doing another in the FSU.  The new money is a trend where lavish outward display of money is happening.

Sure many thought and probably knew there was a class living different.  The people with more did most of the consumption behind closed doors. 

It is hard to explain something you can not reference easy in another culture.  Take our Suburbs for example.  Is that best explained as living on the outskirts of the city in FSU?  I mean I see city and I see village there.  Hard concept to explain IMO.  I have the luxury of her friend knowing both and explaining it to her in Native tongue and reference.  If you do not have that luxury it is hard to set expectations IMO.

Is some of the problems arising from the man not understanding the culture and the woman taking their culture and applying theirs to ours.  America is just a wealthier country in their eyes and therefore the deserve their part of the wealth by living here?

I am sure they feel that is the way it is suppose to be.  So are we treating a symptom and not the problem?  When you factor in language barrier it makes it even harder to explain in a manner one could accepting of.

The man just tries to give more and burns through cash and does not get appreciation for what he did to get the gift.  She may not even understand the real effort it took and how special it really was.

I feel the board is huge in narrowing the learning curve.  Allowing others to not make the mistakes that the people who have gone through it already found.

[Doll]

I am sure they feel that is the way it is suppose to be.

So what's the way THEY  are "supposed to feel"?

[Diplomacy]

That they have it way better than many here.  There are many here that would love to have what she has, and should be proud that her husband has done as well as he has.  Yet, they feel they need and deserve more?  Is that a good wife?  One that is thankless and pushes a husband to give her more an more?  Puts the family finance to the brink of disaster, or even into disaster?

Doll, you clearly feel that they should feel the way I described.  Your thoughts poison a man like me.  I know how hard it was to get and keep what I have earned.  Do you feel it is not enough and want more all the time? 

Do you realize many of your own expats despise how easy you had it compared to them?  They had little and took demeaning jobs and often more than one at a time just to exist?

It is hard to gain an appreciation for the way things work, if you did not work through it yourself.

If the existing foundation of a nice home, car, luxury of only one income to survive was not there.  How would the journey and life in America be?

It is called a false sense of entitlement.

Of course to people that have a false sense of entitlement, it is like trying to explain sex to a virgin.

How do you say all that without sounding like a jerk?

 

[ScottinCrimea]

One of the positives about marrying young and before either of you are established is that you work together to build your life.  By doing so, you both understand and appreciate the struggle and work involved in obtaining what you have.  When one has worked for years to establish themself and then brings another person into the picture who didn't experience that, it's hard for them to have that understanding and appreciation.  In a way, to them it's "free money" that they got through no effort of their own. Most here are in that position.  They have worked hard to establish themselves and now bring a woman into the picture that for the above reason as well as differences in in economies of there versus here cannot understand our concept of the value of money.  Add to this the perceptions of American life as presented in the movies they see and there can be a real misunderstanding of what is "normal".  Once she is in the US, she will be exposed to a barrage of commercials that suggest that the big house, the new car every year, the designer clothes, the gifts of jewelry, etc. is the norm.  She will have a hard time understanding why you are not providing her with what is the "norm".  Forget that in real life the average family is struggling to pay their mortgage and put food on the table, that's not what she sees in the media.

Here's a personal example:  My wife has two RW friends here.  One separated from an abusive husband and is struggling financially.  She lives in subsidized housing and gets a lot of government support because she has two children. She has a Russian "boyfriend" in New York that she travels to see about once every two months.  He sends her money regularly to help her out (exactly why, I don't know).  So she gets "free" money from both sources that she is not required to work for.  The other friend married a much older man who bought her, when she first arrived, a sports car and a boob job. She has a nice house and does not need to work.  She is content to sit at home doing whatever she pleases.  Now my wife looks at the ads on TV and the situations with her two friends and could naturally wonder why she isn't entitled to anything and everything she wants, since in these two examples (three including the ads), material possessions should come without work and struggle.  Sure, in the FSU they know this isn't possible, but everything they know in the US suggests that all are entitled to the best and if her new husband doesn't provide this lifestyle, it is not because he can't, it is because he doesn't want to.

[BC]

Doesn't the fact that men jet halfway around the world for a date imply financial and social stature above his 'normal' peers?

Isn't that what she's after? Exceptional and not the 'normalna' she could easily have at home?

Is there anything wrong with that?

Bottom line, meddling with women that declare intent and desire to leave their homeland permanently, for destinations unknown, with a men they barely know, carries an above average risk of high expectations.

A wise man said 'RW are not for everyone.', but few heed these words, letting their manly pride get the best of them.

Nowdays I would rephrase and say that 'RW are only for the very, very few' -that can afford the luxury in terms of finances, time and emotional stability.

In over 6 years, I can recall only one or maybe two instances where someone said 'Hey folks, been a nice ride but this ain't for me'.  I've learned to really respect those that so decide.

[docetae]

My wife call this the Cinderella syndrome..

[Doll]

Doll, you clearly feel that they should feel the way I described.  Your thoughts poison a man like me.  I know how hard it was to get and keep what I have earned.  Do you feel it is not enough and want more all the time?

Let's make it clear- who "they"( am I one of them?)), which of my thoughts poison you (or men like you). Do I feel what is enough?

[Doll]

Yet, they feel they need and deserve more?  Is that a good wife?

Honestly, I don't understand your generalization- the way you express your thought is about all the women (wives). I can't see any difference here between American wives and Russian ones.

[GoodOlBoy]

I have my own story to throw in here. My wife and I flew out to Las Vegas years ago after she arrived in the USA, to visit one of her hometown Siberian girlfriend's. We rented a car and drove out to LA (Santa Monica). She always wanted to see "Hollywood". Well she saw it and she was NOT impressed. We walked all around the city checking out the "stars" on the sidewalks, drove up to the hills to the "Hollywood" sign.

My wife was just in complete and total shock at how dirty and run down the different areas of LA are. Her whole "vision" of this part of the country were "molded" by TV programs in Siberia like "90210" and "Melrose Place". Everything is brand new, nice, modern...etc.

The stark reality was very difficult for her to understand.

I will add to this story that we did go through Beverly Hills (Rodeo Drive). IMHO a very nice area. But it was already to late to change her very negative opinion about our trip to LA.

[ScottinCrimea]

Isn't that what she's after? Exceptional and not the 'normalna' she could easily have at home?

Her concept of "normalna" at home and "normalna" in the US are vastly different.

[Gator]

Diplomacy,

I am having a little trouble understanding you.  Perhaps you should say exactly what is on your mind in a few words.

All I can say is that not all RW seem like the RW you describe.   And I doubt that Doll is "one of them."

In fact, few of the RW I have met seem this way.  Nevertheless, keep in mind that the RW who make a new life in America differ from average AW in the senses that:

1.  RW had to survive more difficult economic conditions, sometimes desperate situations.  This has influenced RW mentality.  

2.  Someone who leaves her family, friends, country, language and culture is not only adventurous, she probably is ambitious (not contented with status quo, "normalna").

I see this in my wife.

[BC]

Her concept of "normalna" at home and "normalna" in the US are vastly different.

In terms of the value in goods of available disposable income, maybe not.

In terms of social status, maybe not as a 'mail order bride'.

In terms of freedom, maybe not without a car, license or ability to visit her homeland.

In terms of quality time with her new mate, maybe not.

In terms of financial independence, maybe not.

...

[Doll]

I am having a little trouble understanding you.

Me too

[Doll]

Is there anything wrong with that?

Diplomacy   doesn't have problems with it, he expects RW to appreciate the fact of "bringing her over" forever. It is not going to happen.One,two years and this is it.
As for people who live differently here , who has less than "THEM" (Russian wives) - well, it has nothing to do with their understanding or misunderstanding it just because  they "were brought". People (women more often) usually want more than they have, it IS OK. And yes- why apply some other standards to this country?
So I don't understand why Diplomacy would be mad at RW in this regard.
Guys this is NO way you can keep your RW appreciative forever.

[krimster]

Scott,
   I want to start this message with an apology.  I have been guilty in the past of taking a very abusive form of interaction with you.  There was a huge lack of self-control on my part, I am sorry for the hurtful things that I have said.  After three years of living in Ukraine, I went completely "local", this means doing things like shoving old ladies out the line at the meat market, yeah, yeah, I did things like that.  I became a very hostile and aggressive person, I felt I had to in order to live in Ukraine, otherwise everyone there would "walk all over me".  Unfortunately, once I became this person, I couldn't turn it off, the only way I could feel better would be to fight with people on various Ukrainian blogs, this would serve as a form of "catharsis".  It's been 18 months since my family and I left Sevastopol for good and started a new life all over again here in the USA.  We left our shabby but so called "elitny queterry" for a brand new brick home in a gated community nearly twice it's size, both cost roughly the same!  Food is now actually MORE expensive in Ukraine than here, so my actual cost differential (property tax insurance, utilities), between my life in Ukraine and here, is that here I am spending maybe $500/mo more here in the USA (not a big deal!).   Instead of a shabby apartment I live in a brand new 3,000 sq/ft house.  I now live in an environment where it is SANE to drive a car.  Every time I drove a car in Sevastopol, I was a little terrified by the non-stop amount of "ABSOLUTELY CRAZY STUFF" that happens constantly on Ukraine's roads.  My kids go to a great school, it feels great to not be the only parent who does stuff at the school!  It's great watching American cable TV, instead of Russian, I really began to hate the non-stop propaganda.  Shopping is also better, for anything, it doesn't matter.  It's cool ordering books off Amazon and reading them in a kindle or even hard copy.  Couldn't do that in Ukraine.  It's cool seeing something on the internet, that "I JUST GOTTA HAVE", order it and have it delivered Fed-Ex overnite, couldn't do that in Ukraine either. 

I have friends here and a lot of social contact.  In Ukraine, such matters were difficult, and I had to carefully evaluate each person I met in Ukraine.  I have none of that paranoia here at all, what a "breath of fresh air".  As a result, I am REALLY REALLY HAPPY TO BE HERE in the USA, and "Yes" I voted for change, did you?

Scott, I think you pretty much understand what the next few years will be like in Ukraine.  I expect you'll need to understand that two years from now, local Obleenergos may not be able to buy gas, and thus neither will you be able to.  Electricity may soon become rationed (12on/12off) just like it was about 10 years ago.  Ukraine will soon impose high tarriffs on foreign goods (100% of all goods in Ukraine are foreign), the entire retail section will be collapsing, the Ukrainian customs dept noted a 50% drop in imports for the month of Sept., how many of your favorite kiosks/shops will be in business next year?

However, you sure missed the window to sell your real estate.  In the last 2 months Simferopol prices dropped 20-40% depending on who you talk to.  No bottom is yet in sight, how low, for how long, who knows? .I am certain that this 20-40% drop is merely the beginning. 

Even without your Ukrainian real estate, let's just hypothetically "wipe it out", which might actually be the case.  You can find gainful employment for which you would be well compensated.  You seem to profess a rather strong objection to "working for a living", I'm curious why working seems so undesirable to you, especially if the direct outcome is to provide a higher quality of life for you and your family? 

My point is that you COULD have and still could if you WANTED TO, provide the kind of "quality of life" that you family desires.  Rather than question your own motive for not giving it to them, you instead are questioning "whether they are worthy" of receiving it. 

What is love Scott, if not giving your body and soul for them?

[Admin]

Scott,
   I want to start this message with an apology.  I have been guilty in the past of taking a very abusive form of interaction with you.  There was a huge lack of self-control on my part, I am sorry for the hurtful things that I have said.  After three years of living in Ukraine, I went completely "local", this means doing things like shoving old ladies out the line at the meat market, yeah, yeah, I did things like that.  I became a very hostile and aggressive person, I felt I had to in order to live in Ukraine, otherwise everyone there would "walk all over me".  Unfortunately, once I became this person, I couldn't turn it off, the only way I could feel better would be to fight with people on various Ukrainian blogs, this would serve as a form of "catharsis".  It's been 18 months since my family and I left Sevastopol for good and started a new life all over again here in the USA.  We left our shabby but so called "elitny queterry" for a brand new brick home in a gated community nearly twice it's size, both cost roughly the same!  Food is now actually MORE expensive in Ukraine than here, so my actual cost differential (property tax insurance, utilities), between my life in Ukraine and here, is that here I am spending maybe $500/mo more here in the USA (not a big deal!).   Instead of a shabby apartment I live in a brand new 3,000 sq/ft house.  I now live in an environment where it is SANE to drive a car.  Every time I drove a car in Sevastopol, I was a little terrified by the non-stop amount of "ABSOLUTELY CRAZY STUFF" that happens constantly on Ukraine's roads.  My kids go to a great school, it feels great to not be the only parent who does stuff at the school!  It's great watching American cable TV, instead of Russian, I really began to hate the non-stop propaganda.  Shopping is also better, for anything, it doesn't matter.  It's cool ordering books off Amazon and reading them in a kindle or even hard copy.  Couldn't do that in Ukraine.  It's cool seeing something on the internet, that "I JUST GOTTA HAVE", order it and have it delivered Fed-Ex overnite, couldn't do that in Ukraine either. 

I have friends here and a lot of social contact.  In Ukraine, such matters were difficult, and I had to carefully evaluate each person I met in Ukraine.  I have none of that paranoia here at all, what a "breath of fresh air".  As a result, I am REALLY REALLY HAPPY TO BE HERE in the USA, and "Yes" I voted for change, did you?

Scott, I think you pretty much understand what the next few years will be like in Ukraine.  I expect you'll need to understand that two years from now, local Obleenergos may not be able to buy gas, and thus neither will you be able to.  Electricity may soon become rationed (12on/12off) just like it was about 10 years ago.  Ukraine will soon impose high tarriffs on foreign goods (100% of all goods in Ukraine are foreign), the entire retail section will be collapsing, the Ukrainian customs dept noted a 50% drop in imports for the month of Sept., how many of your favorite kiosks/shops will be in business next year?

However, you sure missed the window to sell your real estate.  In the last 2 months Simferopol prices dropped 20-40% depending on who you talk to.  No bottom is yet in sight, how low, for how long, who knows? .I am certain that this 20-40% drop is merely the beginning. 

Even without your Ukrainian real estate, let's just hypothetically "wipe it out", which might actually be the case.  You can find gainful employment for which you would be well compensated.  You seem to profess a rather strong objection to "working for a living", I'm curious why working seems so undesirable to you, especially if the direct outcome is to provide a higher quality of life for you and your family? 

My point is that you COULD have and still could if you WANTED TO, provide the kind of "quality of life" that you family desires.  Rather than question your own motive for not giving it to them, you instead are questioning "whether they are worthy" of receiving it. 

What is love Scott, if not giving your body and soul for them?

krimster,

Rather than diverting this topic into another Mark vs Scott topic - how about you take your questions directly to Scott - off-board?

Thanks,

- Dan

[Blues Fairy]

The false sense of entitlement vanishes quickly as soon as the woman is actively involved in contributing to/planning the family budget, with all income and expenses tallied and discussed.  Transparency is a great tool. 

[krimster]

because it was my preference not to, what's a public board for, if not for public discourse?
Should I be less free to post here than someone else?  You may impose this, but I do not accept it as being ethical

[Admin]

because it was my preference not to, what's a public board for, if not for public discourse?
Should I be less free to post here than someone else?  You may impose this, but I do not accept it as being ethical

krimster,

Neither is it 'ethical' for you to single-mindedly persist in pursuing your ancient enmity with Scott - taking it to various areas of THIS site - and derailing and disrupting others in the process.

Your motives become pretty transparent when you use unrelated foils to advance your agenda.

- Dan

[krimster]

I see nothing in the post I made that would suggest that Dan.  Based on what I see on this board, you VERY selectively support censorship, I am on the "B" list, fine, maybe your animosity needs to be examined more than mine.  It's your ball Dan, so ultimately you get to decide that if the other kids don't play the the way you want them to, then you'll take your ball and go home, this is OK as well, lots more things for me to do than to jawbone here, however, no free man would ever consent to have has voice constrained by another, and you will not make me alter my words, so take your ball and go home Dan...

[Misha]

Doesn't the fact that men jet halfway around the world for a date imply financial and social stature above his 'normal' peers?

Isn't that what she's after? Exceptional and not the 'normalna' she could easily have at home?

Is there anything wrong with that?

How about a woman looking for an exceptionally kind and loving husband? An exceptionally smart and witty husband? An exceptionally considerate and caring husband? There are a number of other qualities that can be valued by a woman. It all depends what a man has to offer. If all he can provide is a green card and money, then he will certainly attract a woman only interested in those two things.

[BC]

How about a woman looking for an exceptionally kind and loving husband? An exceptionally smart and witty husband? An exceptionally considerate and caring husband? There are a number of other qualities that can be valued by a woman. It all depends what a man has to offer. If all he can provide is a green card and money, then he will certainly attract a woman only interested in those two things.

Misha,

Good points.  Fact is, if I sat on the steps of a Moscow subway with a sign saying I was the most exceptionally kind, sincere, caring, considerate, loving husband that was also smart and witty - with a hat in front of me filled with token change I'm willing to bet I'd get nowhere fast.. but with enough persistence might get a long way in the right direction.

[Misha]

Misha,

Good points.  Fact is, if I sat on the steps of a Moscow subway with a sign saying I was the most exceptionally kind, sincere, caring, considerate, loving husband that was also smart and witty - with a hat in front of me filled with token change I'm willing to bet I'd get nowhere fast.. but with enough persistence might get a long way in the right direction.

Well, let's say the man is a struggling artist? He might work quite hard but not have a great deal of money. He might have a job that he loves but does not make a lot of money. Is a woman better off to have a rich man who has a few sponsored women the side? I do feel sorry for the men here. Other than your wallets, you do not have much else to offer.

[Faux Pas]

Is a woman better off to have a rich man who has a few sponsored women the side? I do feel sorry for the men here. Other than your wallets, you do not have much else to offer.

Misha,

I'm not sure I fully understand your statement here. You feel sorry for the rich men or you feel sorry for the men "here" as in the forum and this pursuit?

[Misha]

Misha,

I'm not sure I fully understand your statement here. You feel sorry for the rich men or you feel sorry for the men "here" as in the forum and this pursuit?

I feel sorry for the men who seem to think that all a woman could possibly be looking for is money. It is sad that men like BC seem to think that a man is only worthy of love based on his job.