Why do Russian women prefer Western men?

[Wienerin]

I just glanced through the 14 pages, so maybe I'm wrong, but there're only very few brief asides on the subject that RW do not in fact "prefer WM".

Most of you guys meet only a few (statistically) RW who decided to post their profiles on Western dating sites - and not all of those even mean marriage.

I was astonished by the numbers which somebody posted - where these came from? I mean 50-60 thos. of women from FSU going to the US to marry their American fiancees. USCIS doesn't know anything like this for some reason.

They have detailed immigration tables - by visa and by country. I cannot open .pdf files from this computer, but I've worked for a long time with these statistics, and cannot for the life of me remember anything like this.

Even when you take only K1 visas from FSU - they wouldn't come to this figure (and we'll forget that accompanying children are also counted, that there are K1 men coming to marry American women, and that not all K1 visas end in marriage and AOS).

But let 60R stand - how much is it against the total number of women who want to get married in the FSU? I don't know. What I do know, is that there's not a single woman im my quite large circle of acquaintance who aimed to marry a foreigner and did anything about it.

I have had a total of 3 in about 30 years of rather close friends and I've heard about 3-4 more, who married foreigners (mostly from the Eastern Europe), - but these were people with whom they studied or worked together, got interested in each other, decided to be married... same old thing, you know

So do really RW prefer WM? Sure, some of them do, - a small fraction of a per cent. Are WM really "better" as marriage material than RM? I'm not so sure, but maybe - a small fraction of a per sent... and if the girl got really unlucky.

Yes, Russian society still is very much machist, patriarchal, whatever. But do not forget that the ladies were born and raised in this society and do not necessarily see its peculiarities as an evil thing to avoid at all cost - including separation from home, near and dear, language, loss of status for many, etc., etc.

I remember an anecdote about the 1st International Congress of Women, where the Soviet delegation couldn't find a common ground with the Western ones. The Western ones touted aims well known to all of you - eual work with equal pay, equal access to education and jobs, equality in who cares for babies, etc. The Russian group wanted their men to earn enough for the women not to go to work and tend to home and children. They've had enough of workplace equality - and cheerful posters from the beginning of the4 Soviet era with grinning girls in overalls and quilted coats building railroads etc.

That was in the 70s... Any changes? Heck, no! I go to 2 Russian boards - one is the RF board, based as many of you know in the USA, another is Kofeynya - a huge Russian-Russian board. For the last six years that a visit these women are mostly clamoring for their right to by stay-at-home moms... With the greater percentage among the "American brides". Russian Russian are split roughly equally.

[Mishenka]

I would love to hear the answer to this question from FSU women who are now living with western husbands.

[TwoBitBandit]

Most of you guys meet only a few (statistically) RW who decided to post their profiles on Western dating sites - and not all of those even mean marriage.
[...]
But let 60R stand - how much is it against the total number of women who want to get married in the FSU? I don't know. What I do know, is that there's not a single woman im my quite large circle of acquaintance who aimed to marry a foreigner and did anything about it.

I have had a total of 3 in about 30 years of rather close friends and I've heard about 3-4 more, who married foreigners (mostly from the Eastern Europe), - but these were people with whom they studied or worked together, got interested in each other, decided to be married... same old thing, you know

So do really RW prefer WM? Sure, some of them do, - a small fraction of a per cent. Are WM really "better" as marriage material than RM? I'm not so sure, but maybe - a small fraction of a per sent... and if the girl got really unlucky.

The MOB industry doesn't have any better of a reputation in the FSU than it does in West.  There are lots of quality girls out there that don't want to stoop so low as to join an agency.  They've heard the truth of what goes on.  Many quality girls don't like the stench of it, and they know that many of the guys that end up in MOB form a dirty barrel of their own.

There's lots of girls don't belong to an agency but who will consider a particular foreign guy if he puts himself in front of her by some other means: by meeting her in person in her city by chance, by meeting on a Russian-language site, by an introduction through mutual friends, etc.

I know this is true because I've met them.

I'm only speaking from my own experience, and don't have any statistics.  What fraction of girls that aren't in an agency would consider leaving Russia for the right guy?  Is it 10%?  20%?  30%?  It's probably somewhere in that ballpark.  My point is, though, that they exist.  A serious guy can find them and meet them.

[Misha]

What fraction of girls that aren't in an agency would consider leaving Russia for the right guy?  Is it 10%?  20%?  30%?  It's probably somewhere in that ballpark.  My point is, though, that they exist.  A serious guy can find them and meet them.

That is basically my wife's story. She was not in an agency, yet she she met me, came to Canada with me and married me.

[GoodOlBoy]

I have had a total of 3 in about 30 years of rather close friends and I've heard about 3-4 more, who married foreigners (mostly from the Eastern Europe), - but these were people with whom they studied or worked together, got interested in each other, decided to be married... same old thing, you know

My beautiful wife has many friends still in Omsk.

BUT.....She also has 7 friends married to foreigners (Italy, Germany, New Zealand, Nevada (Las Vegas), Virginia and 2 in California.


GOB

[Wienerin]

My beautiful wife has many friends still in Omsk.

BUT.....She also has 7 friends married to foreigners (Italy, Germany, New Zealand, Nevada (Las Vegas), Virginia and 2 in California.

Well? the world is more open now, it's definitely easier not only to meet a foreign man, but to seek a foreign husband, and leaving your home and country isn't a one-way trip to some sort of limbo for 20 years now.

Still, this doesn't make for a "preference" of WM over RM in a significant number of RW. Even in this topic there were stated "reasons" that make a term "preference" irrelevant. Like there's not enough marriageable men in many places, or that RM prefer (so it's RM preference not RW's) brides without children, etc.

People in Russia still tend to marry and have children much earlier than their Western counterparts. So the pool of RW who haven't already been married and divorced with children in the age group of 25-35 is significantly smaller. As the RM in the corresponding age group of 25-45 have already also been married and divorced and pay child support, with lower incoms and higher costs of living they are not anxious to "burden themselves" with a women and her child|ren. Also the housing problem< etc., etc.

See, I do not deny that more RW than even 10 years ago are marrying or at least looking for a partner abroad< but to state a definite preference would be a mistale, in my very humble opinion

[ECOCKS]

I'll venture a guess here. Our wives are probably almost universally constant in their considersation of our single friends as possibilities for the single friends and family members who remained behind. That would tend to make our wives' circles of friends a biased group with regard to the WM question. Their increased access to WM through us enables a possibility that many, especially those from off the mainstream city circuit, just don't reasonably expect.

 

[Diplomacy]

Wien:

I like where the conversation is going, and there is a viable reason you stated.  Where does the FSUW find happiness, if the men are not willing or capable of a relationship?

How does one offer a great opportunity, but not allow it to be squandered by either person?

How can one help the other understand, and find pride with their life in America?

As you stated, many of the women want a secure family and good family life.  The one underlying issue I find.  Is that a FSUW left to her own devices.  Will try to be a career woman, mother, wife, and active.  The career aspect is difficult, it is in fact starting over.  It will take a large amount of sweat and time to establish themselves.

They tend to hold themselves to a perfectionist level, but not allow themselves the realization that they are now in an imperfect situation.  I just can not find a way to explain that there is being capable of something, but not having to do it. 

I just notice that there is a lot of women working their butts off, but it is coming at the expense of building a stronger relationship.  Working jobs that they are overqualified for, and needing to contribute money to the family.

This is what I have observed, but still do not have the answer.  Improving your understanding of English, culture, and building yourself a career.  That is a job, that gets you a career.  Once you put the goal, that far out.  It seems as though, they need more short term success.  Yet, the improved English, understanding, and the better relationship are not enough.

[chivo]

FWIW, I put the number Wienerin talks about at less than 1% (you'll also see this number in my post yesterday).

Just to do the math quickly, you can see for a population of 80 million women, say 60% or so are women from 18-45, you're looking at almost almost 500-700K women.

Even at the "so-called" number of 60k a year, it would take 10+ years to get to that number.


I wrote this yesterday but didn't post it, but it's still somewhat relevant. Now for yesterday's post;

Chivo, I'm joking a little yes, but in half the cases, for the RW who live in America for a few years I'm not. I'm making a life experience observations from the many RW I have met and been in relationships with over the last 12 years.

Well, yes if you're talking about the ones that came over on a K-1.

Most of the RW I meet live in Russia, and are not this way. Point taken though.

I'm glad to know you had a different experience. It wasn't until I met Galina sitting by my side, that I found someone real and different from the rest. She is independant when it comes to money. She is happy and content when her basic needs in life are met. These are food shelter, and the best clothes, shoes and perfumes made she doesn't drive and wants to do everything together.  Still, like most RW, she  can be very demanding. She blames this on Grandmother of course.

She sounds like most I know.

As far as not having a clue about RW or any women for that matter,  I'm the first to admit I will never figure them out!

Make that the second  . Welcome to the club. 

I concur with the view that FSUW do not necessarily prefer WM as much as they just prefer a stable man.  Two things affect our perception of this though.

First, we are meeting a biased group.

Not me. And about 40% of the women I meet come from some province outside of Moscow.

Second, of the group we do meet, these are the ones who are conciously trying to "swim upstream" in their society. Most have actively sought out western men since they have somehow (often mistakenly) identified that the west, and its people, are more stable.  Alcoholism is generally lower, they live longer, there are some hygiene issues that crop up, we have cars and single-family homes, all of which seem like higher status, until they acclimate to our culture and discover they are only solidly middle class (for the most part). Thus the lack of understanding why they cannot all live the way they saw the women in Hollywood - shopping everyday, boob jobs, a convertible sports car, swimming pool at the house, etc.  If you don't prepare the gal that this perception is Hollywood and simply not real for most people, you are in for serious trouble, financially, emotionally and physically.

I look at my brothers-in-law, all FSUM and see average guys. Normal jobs, occasional problems, some energy, occasional laziness, communication challenges (the wives talk), in short, just normal guys.  Will all of their marriages hold up? Maybe not.  However the divorce rate remains disturbingly the same whether they marry FSUM or WM.

Something to ponder over a coffee cup or beers.

This is something to ponder. It doesn't change anything though. Reasons for divorce in all cultures are more complex than preference. Plus, you have to admit, cultural differences add to the problem more than help it.

I do agree that most of the men here are only going to meet that 1% who would consider it, all things considered.

I often ask RW if they would consider a foreign man. And given a choice between a foreigner and a RM who drinks too much, or is too lazy, etc., they said they would consider it.

All/most, though, talked about cultural differences making things unbearable for them over time as some of these women have already been in these types of relationships. Add this to the other complexities of a relationship, and you/they can see the writing on the wall.

I also hear stories about their friends as well. Some married to very wealthy foreign men who because they refuse to accept the Russian mentality/culture, make life miserable for their wives.

This is why I've always said the better you understand the language/culture, the better your chances for success. Good luck

chivo

[Mir]

Maybe a little out of date but still relevant I think

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/06/0081084

[mies]

I would love to hear the answer to this question from FSU women who are now living with western husbands.

this is very correct question. Specific russian woman may prefer a specific western man to a previously known russian man, because her experience with the specific russian man was not good. But it would not be correct to say that russian women in general prefer western men to a russian men.

[groovlstk]

I would love to hear the answer to this question from FSU women who are now living with western husbands.

My wife has told me that if God forbid things didn't work out for us or I bought it early, she'd have no interest in dating another American.

[Diplomacy]

Groov:

That is one statement, that is so loaded with options.  Was it due to your influence and answered quickly?  Has she been watching a whole lot of CSI special and taking very good notes?  Just likes the FSU men better?  Has given up on men altogether? 

[ECOCKS]

FWIW, I put the number Wienerin talks about at less than 1% (you'll also see this number in my post yesterday).

Just to do the math quickly, you can see for a population of 80 million women, say 60% or so are women from 18-45, you're looking at almost almost 500-700K women.

Even at the "so-called" number of 60k a year, it would take 10+ years to get to that number.


I wrote this yesterday but didn't post it, but it's still somewhat relevant. Now for yesterday's post;
Well, yes if you're talking about the ones that came over on a K-1.

Most of the RW I meet live in Russia, and are not this way. Point taken though.

She sounds like most I know.

Make that the second  . Welcome to the club. 

Not me. And about 40% of the women I meet come from some province outside of Moscow.


This is something to ponder. It doesn't change anything though. Reasons for divorce in all cultures are more complex than preference. Plus, you have to admit, cultural differences add to the problem more than help it.

I do agree that most of the men here are only going to meet that 1% who would consider it, all things considered.

I often ask RW if they would consider a foreign man. And given a choice between a foreigner and a RM who drinks too much, or is too lazy, etc., they said they would consider it.

All/most, though, talked about cultural differences making things unbearable for them over time as some of these women have already been in these types of relationships. Add this to the other complexities of a relationship, and you/they can see the writing on the wall.

I also hear stories about their friends as well. Some married to very wealthy foreign men who because they refuse to accept the Russian mentality/culture, make life miserable for their wives.

This is why I've always said the better you understand the language/culture, the better your chances for success. Good luck

chivo

I don't quite get you in this posting.

You briong up the math which is the same point I'm making of the biased group. The number of women on all the dating sites, expressed as a percentage of the total female population in the FSU which is at least 90 million is far less than 1%. Muscovite or Kyivlanka has nothing to do with it.

The fact is that tens of millions of FSUW are going to marry FSUM with litle or no effort to seek out a WM. They apparently don't feel a "preference" for WM. The divorce percentage appears to be pretty close to the same whichever men they marry.

[Mishenka]

If I'm not mistaken, this statement that RW prefer WM is speaking of women who signed up on dating sites, not the population of Russian females in Russia. For anyone to think RW prefer WM in the general population of Russia would  be incorrect

[ECOCKS]

If I'm not mistaken, this statement that RW prefer WM is speaking of women who signed up on dating sites, not the population of Russian females in Russia. For anyone to think RW prefer WM in the general population of Russia would  be incorrect

That's exactly the point some of us are trying to make.

[chivo]

That's exactly the point some of us are trying to make.

Hopefully I can clarify.

It doesn't matter any way you slice. They (RW) don't.

You have often heard numbers about the ratio of men to women in Russia. I mean good "eligible" men and women. From crazy numbers as 10 to 1, to whatever. I would actually put the number at 2/3-1 in favor of the men.

I would say this is the main reason they would even consider an agency, with a desparate economic situation being second. Preference would be further down on the list.

Yes, they would prefer a WM, or a good, stable man if you will, to loneliness, or a drunken, womanizing, lazy, (add your own adjective) fool. That goes without saying.

If I was to take my unscientific poll based on the RW I've talked as an example, I'd actually put the number at 1/10th of 1%. Possibly even lower.

If you asked the agency ladies honestly what they would prefer, I doubt you'd find these numbers to be any different.

chivo

[Mishenka]

Chivo, you make me laugh, as if there are some large population of so called men in Russia with good jobs and enough income to suport a family who are not out drinking their small weekily paycheck away before feeding the family. Outside the few largest cities, the men who are marriage material for consideration of a RW are few and far between. You soon forget the statistics, average income in most of the FSU is at poverty level.  Not nearly enough to support a family. It is the women who have the best paying jobs and support their family. The Ruble buys nothing in todays exchange rate. what good is making 800 per month if rent is 1200? who will buy the food? or in some cases, as in Usbekistan, Tajikistan, Bellarus, Ukraine, I can go on if you like, their money has no value, they are not being paid by employers, and the quality of life is declining rapidly. Galina and her friends have all told me, there are no good men in their cities ( population 3million) Sure there are good men, already married, or with other women, but when 50 % of the population is living at poverty level, and the rest are taken, it leaves few men left to choose from.

 The ruble lost some 35 percent against the U.S. dollar between August last year and January this year with the burst of the oil bubble that had in recent years brought Russia extraordinary financial gains.

    Russia's Central Bank drained more than a third of its foreign currency reserves, the world's third-largest, to stem the slide of ruble before it ended the devaluation policy on Jan. 22.

    The worst financial crisis since Russia's debt default in 1998 has driven investors to withdraw more than 300 billion U.S. dollars from the country since August, according to BNP Paribas SA.

    Meanwhile, Russia's official unemployment figure has doubled since August to reach 2.03 million amid the economic downturn, the country's Federal Employment Service said Wednesday.


Moscow, March 16 (Interfax) - The number of registered unemployed Russians exceeded 2 million people last week, but the unemployment growth rates continue to fall, the Ministry of Health Care and Social Development said.

http://www.kyivpost.com/world/37566

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, in a video address posted on the Kremlin website on March 7, urged Russians to keep moving forward despite the economic hardship.

    In the nine-minute speech that marked the first anniversary of his election as Russian president, Medvedev admitted that the global financial crisis had foiled many of his plans, including that of turning Moscow into an international financial center.

    Just several days later, the president again told Russians to "prepare for the worst," saying the climax of the crisis was yet to crest. "For the first time we have drafted a deficit budget ...We can not look far ahead in these difficult times," Medvedev said.

    In a move to make the anti-crisis measures understandable to ordinary citizens, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin sat down with coal miners in southwest Siberia on Thursday, assuring them that the government would fight unemployment, falling pensions and poor living conditions in the regions.

[chivo]

Chivo, you make me laugh, as if there are some large population of so called men in Russia with good jobs and enough income to suport a family who are not out drinking their small weekily paycheck away before feeding the family. Outside the few largest cities, the men who are marriage material for consideration of a RW are few and far between.

You must still believe in Santa Claus too. Mishenka, I have met and know more RM than you and your wife combined, trust me. Many are from the provinces, but like others, come to Moscow to work. Good solid men. Some married, many not.

Don't believe everything you read.

You soon forget the statistics, average income in most of the FSU is at poverty level.

How is this any different from the past? It has only been in the last few years that people earned a decent income. Russians are used to getting by with nothing and living in less than favorable economic situations.

Not nearly enough to support a family. It is the women who have the best paying jobs and support their family. The Ruble buys nothing in todays exchange rate. what good is making 800 per month if rent is 1200?

Where are you getting these figures? I don't pay $1200 a month in Moscow, I seriously doubt anyone in Tashkent, or any other city in these parts are either. Uzbek men are not exactly on any RW hit list as attractive suitors.

Again, economic situations as I stated are the reasons they would consider you, not preference.

Tel me, how does someone in America pay their mortgage if they don't have a job? Or, that's right, they foreclose. It doesn't take a genius to google the foreclosure rate in the USA over the last 2 years and see that it's astronomical.

Galina and her friends have all told me, there are no good men in their cities ( population 3million) Sure there are good men, already married, or with other women, but when 50 % of the population is living at poverty level, and the rest are taken, it leaves few men left to choose from.

Don't compare Uzbekistan with Russia. Russians make up about 8% of the population there now.

Again, and I repeat, the men here aren't much worse than men anywhere. A total BS myth that, while it has some validity, is way overblown when you compare them to other men in other countries.

The ruble lost some 35 percent against the U.S. dollar between August last year and January this year with the burst of the oil bubble that had in recent years brought Russia extraordinary financial gains.

    Russia's Central Bank drained more than a third of its foreign currency reserves, the world's third-largest, to stem the slide of ruble before it ended the devaluation policy on Jan. 22.

    The worst financial crisis since Russia's debt default in 1998 has driven investors to withdraw more than 300 billion U.S. dollars from the country since August, according to BNP Paribas SA.

You want me to quote what's happening in the USA now? And how does this figure in RW preferring WM, agency or not?

I mean, tell me something I don't know. You believe too much of what you read BTW. I've read many of your postings about Russia, and have to say that I think many are off base. I just don't want to go round and round about it on any fora.

I've lived here for the last 5 years, and the people/connections I know and talk to have a much better insight into what goes on here than you or anything you read and comment on. For the record, some of what you post it correct.

Meanwhile, Russia's official unemployment figure has doubled since August to reach 2.03 million amid the economic downturn, the country's Federal Employment Service said Wednesday.

The unemployment rate in America is 12.5 million, and has increased by 5 million in the last year alone. Still laughing?
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
 
Take a look at Spain if you really want to see a troubled economy.

I'm not really sure how this relates to preference. You mean a woman, any woman, wants a man to help? Who would have thought?  . Point here is that Russia isn't the only country having problems.

Let's not get into government, politics, or how bad the men are, because many WM are all that either. We're talking preference.

I'll stand by my ratios, and economic reasons as why you are EVEN considered in the first place. Not because of preference.

chivo

[Wienerin]

I'm speechless  Mishenka, you're very talented person, - look how you managed in a few sentenses not only insult the majority of RM, but RW also! 

I'm reluctant to spoil such an ouevre, so only a few notes: for the last almost 10 years Russians were enjoying a period of unprecedented affluence. Russian fora are full of posts like "So I've visited your America, nothing much when compared to Russia", and not only because of fierce patriotism, mind.

The present crisis is considered to hit USA much worse than Russia - whether it's true or not I won't discuss here, I'm saying only about how it's perceived by the Russians. (There's some truth in this, as Russians didn't have time and opportunity to get that deep in debt, and yes, are hardier, I think, when it comes to economic troubles )

Bad or not, oppressive or not, poor or not - for Russians it's their country. So when considering the - questionable in many cases - "preference" of RW for "rich" American men, do not forget, that an emigree (in most cases) has to learn new language, new profession, tear oneself away from the loved people and places, change the comfortable and familiar for uncomfortable and infamiliar, etc., etc., etc.

To make the transition worthwhile there should be a compelling reason, a dire necessity, - or love. If the reason is purely economic or search of "stability" (which in the present situation is rather a joke) - the search or even the marriage is headed for trouble.

And one other small thing to remember - most of the Russians now own their homes outright. These may be poor and inadequate from the WM point of view, but still... and far from the majority of WM are offering a paid-for mansion in or near a big city (where most of the mail-brides stem from)

[Fashionista]

I would love to hear the answer to this question from FSU women who are now living with western husbands.

hmmm, let's see.  Given the very different personalities among both Russian and Western men, there are probably only two general differences i can see.  WM on average probably make more money and their native language is not Russian and they were raised on different cultural myths. So, a RW that would prefer a generic WM to a generic RM probably prefers a bigger checkbook and she prefers not to understand her husband or be understood.  That type of... ahem... marriage can work, just not everyone's cup of vodka.  

Of course, a particular man can win a heart of a particular woman, but he's got more to show for it than a place of birth.  

[GoodOlBoy]

.... I have met and know more RM than you and your wife combined....Good solid men.

OH God.....Please don't get me started about RM. 


GOB

[groovlstk]

To make the transition worthwhile there should be a compelling reason, a dire necessity, - or love. If the reason is purely economic or search of "stability" (which in the present situation is rather a joke) - the search or even the marriage is headed for trouble.

Some of us have been preaching this for a long time, yet there are still plenty of foolish men out there who believe that "stability" trumps all else - and that if they are ugly, 30 years older than the women they plan to marry, lack basic social skills, etc., they're still superior to local RM because she'll be happy with the stability his paycheck allows. And when her GC arrives and she dumps Mr. Stability for a local Russian guy, suddenly she's an immoral slut.

[GoodOlBoy]

......stability his paycheck allows.....NOPE

......if they are ugly, 30 years older than the women.....NADA

......lack basic social skills.......WHO ME?  :evil:

......superior to local RM......BINGO !!!!



GOB
 

[Misha]

And when her GC arrives and she dumps Mr. Stability for a local Russian guy, suddenly she's an immoral slut.

It is not always guaranteed that she will dump him for a Russian guy. Knew of one woman who did dump her much older and not very attractive Canadian husband for a younger and more attractive Canadian man who is now her husband.