Settling for...?

[andrewfi]

I do not often start threads about this stuff, but I saw a post that made me very sad. Written by a guy who has been bragging about his 'fiancee', telling us how great she was, how well off, how beautiful - a paragon.

Reading the posts for some weeks, this reader has been thinking that something is off.

Today I read a post by the guy that told us that he was still planning to proceed, on the basis that  'At the moment there are just enough pro to off set the con.' Reading those words made me feel very sad indeed.

I do not know the guy, I do not know the woman and, I am unmarried. But, I know that I would never, ever, settle for someone in whom, for me, the pros just outweighed the cons. For a start, if I had to think in those terms, I would know I was making the wrong choices. Even for me, in normal dating, if I am so lukewarm about a person I will no longer see her.

Guys, when you are making plans to marry a woman, any woman, make sure that you are wholehearted in the endeavour. Do not settle for OK, ordinary or average. Do not allow the knowledge that she once was a runner up in a beauty contest sway your choices. Choose a woman that fills your heart AND mind. Choose a woman who not only arouses your passion, but you hers. Choose a loaded scale, not a balanced one.

If you do not know for sure, if you are not convinced, then make the sensible choice and move on.

Please.

[jb]

Andrew,

I know the poster of whom you speak, and I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts.  

I often tell men privately that it's ok to be paranoid about this endeavor, and those who are already paranoid, I tell them they probably aren't paranoid enough.  If a man cannot spend the face time with a woman, he needs to have his ears really perked up at all times, otherwise he is inviting desaster.

Of course, the other side of the coin is: "Life is too short to date ugly women."  

[Bruno]

Do not settle for OK, ordinary or average.

What is OK, ordinary or average ?

Since my problem with women, i become more difficult in my choice... a OK now was a superior from before... if someone have very high expectation, a OK can be a good choice... but if someone is a looser, have bad meaning over himself... same a bad women can seem be OK...

Like our friend Einstein say, "all is relatif"...

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ I do not refer to the quality of the woman, but to the quality of the relationship. They are different things. If a guy is weighing up a balance, and the balance is just even then it is not good enough.

That is what I mean.

It will never get better in the future, when what passion there is in such a finely balanced relationship will diminish, as it does in all relationships. What is left? Two aging and unhappy people and a divorce.

At least if you start from a perspective of being absolutely sure, there is a way to come down, a margin of error, if you will.

Sadly we see similar stories so often. Maybe the guys who think this way are accustomed to the drab and ordinary. Maybe they think that the pros just outweighing the cons is actually an improvement on what they had before. Maybe loneliness is just too much and even a little is better than none.

[Bruce]

Character traits are what ultimately matters in a relationship.  Looks, of course, matter tremendously but more important is the ability to live with each other on a daily basis.  If the guy is only ok with his relationship at the start of a potential marriage I would urge him to reconsider his marriage plans.  It is so easy to spend more time prior to a commitment to ensure that things really are right.  I assume in this case the personalities just are not meshing well.  If the couple can not talk things out and learn to compromise together I think their marriage is ultimately doomed - so they are better off splitting up and finding someone with the character traits and personality which fits each of them better.  Now, alot of the FSU girls will suck things up ie. knowing marriage will never work out just to get a green card / escape a miserable situation.  If a guy has a 'feeling" that things are not right in the course of a relationship I urge him to test his "feeling" to ensure that he is not being taken to the cleaners down the road. 

[andrewfi]

There are very few genuinely ugly women, but there are many who can not see beauty!

[Turboguy]

Of course, the other side of the coin is: "Life is too short to date ugly women."

Unless you are talking about American women, then life is too short to date a beautiful women cause their heads are too screwed up.

There is the old calipso song that says "Make an ugly woman your wife"

There is also the comment I heard long ago that goes.

Women marry men, hoping they will change but they don't
Men marry women hoping they will not change, but they do.

Beauty is the thing that attracts us to a woman and it is the thing that lasts the shortest time.   Inner ugliness will last much longer than outer beauty.

[Bruno]

It is so easy to spend more time prior to a commitment to ensure that things really are right.  I assume in this case the personalities just are not meshing well.  If the couple can not talk things out and learn to compromise together I think their marriage is ultimately doomed - so they are better off splitting up and finding someone with the character traits and personality which fits each of them better.

For several people, specialy in the case of foreign dating have not the time for know each other... and more, they fear to become more old alone...

If now, i see my own situation... i have loose now one year... 3 women and no result... but it is only one year...

My first marriage was make in the hurry... from the first letter until the divorce, it was 6 year... a lot of time and a lot of money... it is better loose a little more time now for know each other better and choice the right one that loose a lot in the long term...

Good post Bruce... i was needed so advice in 1997... i have learn it by the hard way

[KenC]

Good opening post, Andrew.  Where I think most guys make their mistake with this whole RW thing, is that they go over trying to find a girl to fit into their plans.  They make all kinds  of compromises just to make her "fit".  Instead, they should be looking for every reason why they won't "fit" into their plans.  Look for the negatives and be very very picky.

When I went over to meet Lena, I was sure that I was never going to marry again.  I met her with that attitude.  I was scared as hell about our age difference.  I had to be convinced that it would not be a problem.  Until I was sure that this major hurdle could be handled, there was no engagement or even any thought of one.  It takes time to find out everything about a future spouse.  Or at least all the important stuff.  Most guys are not willing to spend the time to be sure.  That is why the One Week Wonders are such a joke.  They may as well buy a lotto ticket.

KenC

[Journeyman]

Where I think most guys make their mistake with this whole RW thing, is that they go over trying to find a girl to fit into their plans.  They make all kinds  of compromises just to make her "fit".  Instead, they should be looking for every reason why they won't "fit" into their plans.  Look for the negatives and be very very picky.

Bingo!  Funny, I received a big round of boos and hisses on RWG from most of the neophytes and the new "regulars" for saying exactly the same thing months ago.  It reminded me of the old Arab proverb, "He who tells the truth should keep one foot in the stirrup."  

Meanwhile, back to Andrew's original thesis, it has been interesting for me to see the mating calculus used by a range of men going to the FSU -- so many guys who haven't a clue about marriage (or even relationships generally).  Can they really be helped?  Only about half of the ones I've met are what I would consider to be "educatable."

Frankly, I sometimes think that the best thing that can happen to a rookie (the educatable variety) is to get kicked in the groin as soon as possible by a cunning RW (yet, still hopefully stopping short of walking down the aisle).  I've met a fair number of relatively intelligent guys along the way (both here and there), but few of them could get their heads clear of all the MOB propaganda (as well as their own fantasies) until they were first used and abused a little (or a lot).  

Trying to be balanced, however, I have known a few people who have lived happily in traditional, arranged marriages, and have even developed a strong affection (love?) for their family-selected mate over time.  Do some of these WM/RW marriages essentially fall into that category?  Could a marriage with a RW be handled successfully in the same way?  I dunno.  I wouldn't want such a marriage, but some might.

Journeyman

[Ste]

[size=3When I went over to meet Lena, I was sure that I was never going to marry again. I met her with that attitude. I was scared as hell about our age difference. I had to be convinced that it would not be a problem. Until I was sure that this major hurdle could be handled, there was no engagement or even any thought of one. It takes time to find out everything about a future spouse. Or at least all the important stuff. Most guys are not willing to spend the time to be sure. That is why the One Week Wonders are such a joke. They may as well buy a lotto ticket.[/size][/b]

KenC

Good stuff Ken.

I too have a 20+ age diff, and I don't subscribe to this 'I'm 44 but I look 25' crap, I look 44, I'm happy being 44, and fully accept my changes for playing football for England are over......

Anyway, Nadia and I have known each other now for over two years, and where are we now? Engaged, Married? No, still getting to know each other. Over that two years we've had around seven months actually together. I still think one week wonders *can* work but like u say it's a crap shoot. Serious corners are cut and the cost is most likely divorce.

Ste

[catzenmouse]

That is why the One Week Wonders are such a joke.  They may as well buy a lotto ticket.

KenC

Good stuff Ken.

I too have a 20+ age diff, and I don't subscribe to this 'I'm 44 but I look 25' crap, I look 44, I'm happy being 44, and fully accept my changes for playing football for England are over......

Anyway, Nadia and I have known each other now for over two years, and where are we now? Engaged, Married? No, still getting to know each other. Over that two years we've had around seven months actually together. I still think one week wonders *can* work but like u say it's a crap shoot. Serious corners are cut and the cost is most likely divorce.

Ste
[/quote]
I guess then I am a joke. I went to Russia to meet someone that I had been writing with and talking to for several months. It was a bust. I met Elena just two days before I was to head back here and we hit it off tremendously. This was in May. I would not be able to make another trip until at least 1 year later due to my job commitments so after several months of writing and daily/twice daily phone calls we decided to give it a shot and file the K1. Well, we've been married for 9 months on Friday and yes there have been a lot of challenges and hurdles to get over but we have a wonderful relationship and I would not change anything that we have done so far except to maybe get her into more intensive ESL classes upon her arrival.

 I do NOT advise anyone to do things the way I did them nor do I throw a lot of advice out for relationships as I am still in the beginning/learning stage of a lot of this adventure. This is just how it happened for us and I try to offer bits of experiences that I have personally had. If they are helpful that is great. If not, ignore them.

 In line with the topic I do not feel that I settled in any way in this relationship but rather that I got much, much more than I ever imagined. I could not dream up a better woman/partner/friend but I am the exception to the rule in the how it happened.

Ken

[KenC]

Journeyman,

it has been interesting for me to see the mating calculus used by a range of men going to the FSU -- so many guys who haven't a clue about marriage (or even relationships generally). Can they really be helped? Only about half of the ones I've met are what I would consider to be "educatable."

That lonely  inexperienced middle aged man is the MOB agency's target market.  They give these men hope.  Nothing wrong with that on the surface, but the some agencies go beyond that.  Instead of pushing these guys toward a woman that is a more reasonable match for them, they purposely display photos of the most mismatched couples they can muster as proof that "you too can marry a smokenhotkova".  Once these guys drink that coolaide, they are lost from reason forever.   Then the justifications begin and all hope of making an intelligent decision is gone.

The justifications are just head games the guys play on themselves (with a little help from some agencies).  For many, it is the first time in their lives that they have someone feeding their egos.  And it is a very easy sale.  They are told that RW prefer older men.  They are told that RW don't care what you look like.  They are told that RM are so terrible that any RW will jump into your arms.  After being dissed by the general dating pool in their home country, our poor target market man only too eagerly accepts these sales pitches as truths.  Suddenly, they turn from being dating fodder into super studs.  Who aint gonna want that to happen?  Of course they believe it is all true.

Once our target market man actually goes to Russia and begins getting attention from women he only dreamed of before, he is toast.  He is now living the life of Hugh Heffner as he has always wanted.  You think he wants to look for reasons why it isn't true?  No way!  He holds onto the dream for as long as possible.  He may get engaged asap to insure he doesn't lose his dream girl, or at best, he returns home madly in love.

That is when the compromises usually begin.  His smokenhotkova gets on the monthly bill paying schedule.  Not too bad, only X amount per month.  Oh, she "needs" (fill in the blank) (a new apartment, medical treatment, Babushka's plastic surgery, ect.)  He thinks that now he has a responsibility for her happiness.  Because he can't be there to support her emotionally, he sends money.  All this is justified by how a little money can make such a big difference in his lovers life.  As time goes on, the smokenhotkova knows her hook has been swallowed, so her good behavior has to be only maintained minimumly.  Slowly but surely, our Target market man becomes a victim and the smokenhotkova assumes more and more power in the relationship.  Before long, he is accepting just about anything from her.  All because he is sure that she is the love of his life.  Or at least for a couple of years.

KenC

[anono]

Guys, when you are making plans to marry a woman, any woman, make sure that you are wholehearted in the endeavour. Do not settle for OK, ordinary or average. Do not allow the knowledge that she once was a runner up in a beauty contest sway your choices. Choose a woman that fills your heart AND mind. Choose a woman who not only arouses your passion, but you hers. Choose a loaded scale, not a balanced one

hi andrew, maybe in my thread i am not saying it correctly but this is what i am doing with my "j". i want to be sure of my feelings for her and our ability to stay together for the long term. i am not reporting this "i took one look and knew she was my destiny". now i am being challenged as not knowing what i am doing or knowing what i want. i am being told i am shallow because i have a concern about the size of her ass. i guess i am supposed to go forward even if i am not sure of it. there are so many beautiful women here i just feel you can find the woman with the outer beauty who also possesses the inner beauty i am looking for. maybe i am asking for too much?

[jb]

anono,

I've seen your picture, and I've seen her picture.

'Nuff said....

[anono]

good one jb....lol

i know. i have not posted that particular thought but it has not escaped me that i have to look in the mirror from time to time....

i always push the envelope..

[Photo Guy]

You'll know she is the right one, when you realize her flaws are also 'right' for you, meaning you can cope with her particular flaws. Her flaws and your flaws will not destroy the love or the joy, if the two are an appropriate combination. That's just my take on connecting with the 'appropriate' mate.

[PeeWee]

Bruno ~ I do not refer to the quality of the woman, but to the quality of the relationship. They are different things. If a guy is weighing up a balance, and the balance is just even then it is not good enough.

That is what I mean.

It will never get better in the future, when what passion there is in such a finely balanced relationship will diminish, as it does in all relationships. What is left? Two aging and unhappy people and a divorce.

At least if you start from a perspective of being absolutely sure, there is a way to come down, a margin of error, if you will.

Sadly we see similar stories so often. Maybe the guys who think this way are accustomed to the drab and ordinary. Maybe they think that the pros just outweighing the cons is actually an improvement on what they had before. Maybe loneliness is just too much and even a little is better than none.

yet there are more sides to a story then what you see in text. Here is a small correction...not a runner up. Where did you get that. She won the crown not once but twice. Not a fluke by any stretch. You have seen the quality of women in russia. You have to be on top of your game to be the best of the best.

Second, no loneliness here. I've dated for 10 years following my divorce to another Miss Universe contestant, this one was a runner up, but did with the Miss Photogenic competion and then went on to become an actress...two major movies to her credit. And finally settled to be one hell of a mother to my son. We are still friends to this day as is her new husband. In between she and the current was a Playboy Bunny who lives in Cincinatti. Owned two night clubs there, sold them, and now lives on her investiments. In that case the cons out weighed the pros and I dumped her. Not a problem with women here. I get the best of the best, which is why have remained single for over 10 years. Why get married? Anyway, don't fell sorry for this lad...cause I've have to it going on. it will take a lot of convincing for someone to get me back into a marriage but that one in Moscow just might do it.

Thanks for your concern but your old PeeWee is doing just fine.

 

PeeWee

[BC]

No matter how good looking the 'babe' is you're with, after a couple of years together you'll still get slapped upside the head for not noticing.

Over a short time things tend to become very relative. Believe it or not.. you can get 'tired' of money and you can get 'tired' of beauty.

[andrewfi]

PeeWee, so you are addicted to models or physical beauty - it changes nothing, you are, since you outed yourself, deciding just how to compromise your needs and happiness in order to shag another pretty woman. You tell us how her ethical and moral values do not sit well with yours, you tell us of the red flags she waves at you and you then tell us you will go ahead on the scant basis that, on balance, your relationship is slightly more good than bad.

If you honestly believe after your experiences that it is hard to shag an attractive woman then you are not 'on top of your game' as you put it. Finding and keeping a partner who meets your needs, challenges your intellect, does not cause you to compromise your own standards - that is being on top of your game, the regularity of her features is but a bonus.

Find someone you actually like, or love and more importanly loves you and then you will not be weighing balances. But, OTOH, if you do not know what I mean then, there is nobody can tell you.

There are people who are good who are ugly and people who are bad who are ugly.

There are people who are good and beautiful and people who are bad who are Beautiful.

Everything you have spent weeks telling us suggests that you have found one of the latter - She may not be evil, but, at least for me, I would need to go no further than that she does not return that which she borrows. Some call that stealing. It is certainly not a good harbinger of a strong relationship based upon mutual respect and trust. It is more like a weak relationship based upon access to physical beauty exchanged for money.

When I wrote the original post, it was with your recent posts in mind, but, as you will have gathered, I was not writing solely about your situation; you are just an exemplar of a type. I do not understand why people are willing to compromise so much for, what seems, in your case, PeeWee an obsession with physical beauty. As to whether I place much credence in your claimed history, well, that is another matter entirely - I am firmly in the 'he wouldn't need to do it if he actually could' school of thought when it comes to guys chasing physical beauty in other countries. But, then, on the internet, nobody knows if you are a dog...

[andrewfi]

 

[catzenmouse]

 But, then, on the internet, nobody knows if you are a dog...

[/quote]
HEY! I resemble that remark...

Ken

[PeeWee]

No matter how good looking the 'babe' is you're with, after a couple of years together you'll still get slapped upside the head for not noticing.

Over a short time things tend to become very relative. Believe it or not.. you can get 'tired' of money and you can get 'tired' of beauty.

No, you really don't believe that?! I never get tired of either. I always try to earn more money. Have you ever noticed how the older a guy gets usually he will gain a greater income and sometimes more power? With that comes younger and hotter women. Those guys are trading up. Why? Because they get tired of old and ugly. You especially see that trend in Hollywood.

In my case, if I use the ex wife as my basis. I'd still be with her has she not went goofy on me, the bunny was 17 years younger than the wife, after that the current lady is 12 years younger than the ex. I could have gone even younger but realize that a woman has to have some mileage on the odometer, especially in the brain department. I did not rob the cradle either as even the youngest of them was not more than 17 years younger than me. If I was 25 that 17 years would be significant but when you get into your mid forties and beyond the age difference can be greater.

PeeWee

[PeeWee]

But, then, on the internet, nobody knows if you are a dog...

[/quote]
HEY! I resemble that remark...

Ken
[/quote]
True, Ken. There are are two types of men. There are the dogs and there are the pussys. I claim the dog.  Get out there and and chase some tail, lad! Life is too short to get all knotted up into that "beauty is only skin deep" nonsense. You only compromise when you can afford not to comproise.

I can afford, both in time and money, to get the very best so why would I not do that? If I go into a wine shop do I buy Thuderbird or do I buy Dom? If I go into a car dealership do I buy a Kia or do I buy a BMW? Wait,give me a fraction of a second to make that decision.If I should decide to settle on a wife do I settle for a 6 with a great heart and soulor do I settle fora 10 with a great heart and soul? Like I say and say, don't fret about me. In the end I will come out miles ahead of where even I wanted to be. You just gotta have that unfailing confidence in yourself.

PeeWee

[BC]

No matter how good looking the 'babe' is you're with, after a couple of years together you'll still get slapped upside the head for not noticing.

Over a short time things tend to become very relative. Believe it or not.. you can get 'tired' of money and you can get 'tired' of beauty.

No, you really don't believe that?!...[/quote]

Yes I do. Been there, done that.

The queens and bunnies fade. Your past experience seems to indicate that you weren't happy with what was left over.. or maybe vice versa? Not looking for disposables anymore here, it's time to really settle down.

Money overdose does not make me happy. We're quite comfortable being as 'normal' as possible, no debts, no rent/mortgage and enough left over so that we don't pay attention to prices on the menu. It's nice when the dinner talk with guests does not revolve around money, investments, cars, boats or wealth comparisons.. Real friends are priceless. If you really have true wealth you will know what I mean.