UK Visa for RW

[Sculler]

I just got word that my fiancewas denied a visit visa to the UK for the second time. The reason for first refusal was because they thought she might remain past her 6 months since I will be in the UK for about a year and that she might try and seek work in violation of the visa. So we applied for a one year visa to avoid the issue of overstaying the visa and I addressed the work issue by stating my income was more than sufficient for her to be with me without any need for her to work. The second refusal only cited the overstaying excuse by saying she could only get a 6 month visa (so why offer the 1-year if it is never granted, unless it is just a way to charge 3 times the fee of a 6 month visa), despite my letter stating her need to return to Russia in May to prepare for her US K-1 visa interview.

So here are my questions. What assurances can I give that she will not stay beyond her 6 months? A letter from the US embassy about her interview? It seems this blanket excuse could be used to deny anyone a visa to the UK. I am considering filing an appeal to the AIT claiming discrimination (the only basis for appeal allowed in this case) since the reasoning is so vague and in direct conflict with the circumstances of our case. Is anyone familiar with the appeal process? Is this likely to accomplish anything? Is there any benefit to contacting a solicitor here to help? I will be travelling to Russia for the holidays. My fiancee thinks she will have a better chance of getting the visa if I go to the visa center with her to submit another application. This scenario happened with a friend of hers after she was first denied a UK visa (they are now married and living in the UK). Would a letter of support from a UK citizen help our application? I have thought about getting a quick marriage in Prague and then applying for a family visa, but not sure if this will be any better. Plus it would require cancelling our existing K-1 visa application and starting over with a K-3 which will most likely delay her getting to the US. I appreciate the advice.

1x

[GoodOlBoy]

Hello Sculler.

If I may ask. What kind of assets in Russia does your girlfriend have? Does she have her own flat, car, job, children etc.?

I am not a lawyer, but 2 Visa refusals does not sound good for any future applications. 

[Sculler]

She doesn't have much. She is a veterinarian at a state clinic but doesn't make a lot of money. She lives with her mother and grandmother, who owns the flat. But she was granted a UK visa last May when we made a trip to spend some time with her friend here and do some travelling together. Her visa expired Nov 15, so if jumping the visa was on our minds she would've met me here in October when I arrived and she would still be here (assuming she wasn't caught overstaying her visa). Instead we applied for a new visa. This fact apparently has zero meaning to the people at the UK embassy making the decision.

[55North]

Access to the UK for non-EU citizens (apart from those with 'arrangements' with the EU such as the USA), have become increasingly harder, with new regulations almost monthly (it seems).
 
I'm no expert, or even a gifted amateur, but this I will say.  I am not at all surprised by the denial of visitor visa.   The point made about lack of property, etc. is crucial.  Furthermore, I ask myself, why should an American citizen be meeting his fiancee in the UK?  Why not get a Fiancee Visa to the US?
 
I advise that for further discussion regarding UK visas, you visit this forum, where wiser council than I will advise you.
 
http://www.realrussia.co.uk/forum/category-view.asp

[neo]

i don't want to be the voice of doom, but you have zero course of appeal for a UK refusal.

my ex-wife applied for a tourist visa when she was 18, she was refused it for the usual not believing her intentions BS, as a result her spouse visa was refused (yes really), we appealed to the immigration department via a MP and got nowhere. they are a complete law to themselves. gave up and moved to paris. even with 4 years of marriage she never once got a visitors visa for the UK.

As stated the only way a russian gets into the UK is MONEY. if you have substantial assets in russia i.e home, business, ties or have substantial liquid capital and a business relationship with a UK entity i.e roman abramovitch then you are welcome, otherwise you can clear off.

ironic huh? Russia has a 650 BIllion USD trade surplus, UK is on its knees with debt, yet they still act like the great empire and refuse entry to those deemed not worth.

I hope when they come to needing help bailing out sterling russia gives them the finger.

[Mir]

ronic huh? Russia has a 650 Billion USD trade surplus, UK is on its knees with debt, yet they still act like the great empire and refuse entry to those deemed not worth.

I hope when they come to needing help bailing out sterling Russia gives them the finger.

While there is little doubt that UK immigration people can be real pricks and are only surpassed by US immigration in this respect I am not sure what trade surplus has to do with this. And which Russia has 650 billion dollar trade surplus? Maybe you mean forex reserves which for Russia no stand at just over 500 billion. Well China has 2000 billion in forex reserves and a trade surplus several times that of Russia, that still does not stop Chines from trying to emigrate to UK, to the extent that they go through extreme hardships to get here. Not that long ago many were found dead in a lorry while trying to smuggle into UK. And why is it that despite such excellent economic conditions there are more Russians leaving and not many from Europe trying to migrate to Russia?
It is quite obvious that trade surplus has little to do with the attractiveness of the country to live in. Saudi Arabia has had trade surplus for decades but it still remains a crap place to live in.
I am sure Russia will not come to the rescue of the sterling (which is doomed in any case) because she will be too busy trying to defend the Ruble.

[kievstar]

Russia only has a surplus since they spend little on their people and country.  Infrastructure is poor, military is weak, majority of the people are very poor.  Putin does little to help the people as he wants to rebuild the military first. 

[TheWongs]

Mmmmmm........

I hope that you are all wrong! I hope it's not all about how much money you have!

My wife has been to UK twice now on visitor visa's before we were married. We are now going through the spouse visa process. If what you say is true, she should not only have been refused a visitors visa, but she would never get a visa to live with her husband!

I'm hoping it's not all about money!

[Jazzyclassy]

well it is so unpredictable with the UK visa it is the hardest to get.Though one may have it at once without any problems and the other can have refusals, it depends on each individual case, it does depend on money a lot as well, i had 2 refusals on tourist visa but when we applied for spouse visa i got it without any interview and within 3-4 working days , was rather quick, so you never know how it may happen, but best be prepared and ready to submit all the necessary documents and maybe even some extra documents just in case, cos they do scrutinize any information given.

[55North]

Jazzyclassy and I have both used the spouse visa route for our respective marriages and found it works just fine, as planned, by following the rules, which are for British citzens to marry out, and bring their spouse home.
 
So, why no answer from from Sculler as to why an American citizen be meeting his fiancee in the UK instead of getting a Fiancee Visa to the US?
 
The UK does have a very tough border regime, due to the fact that it's incredibly popular with world's dispossessed, and economical migrants. 

Why is that?  Is it because of the value of sterling or our foreign currency holdings?   I think not. 

It is simply because we speak English, generally have a substantial thriving economy of sorts, are attached (almost) to Eurasia, and host (particularly in London) national communities of just about everywhere in the world.  Of course, the US would be the first choice for many, but it's further, and surrounded by ocean.  Some are no doubt attracted by, or at least drawn by some knowledge of our 'culture' eg Bard, Beatles, BBC, Beckham, etc.
 
As in the US, immigration has become a major political issue, with a substantial popular pressure to curtail it.  Given that turkeys don't vote for Christmas, is it unreasonable to expect sitting politicians to do the same?  We are, after all, a rather overcrowded island. 

Neo, compare our land area with that of Norway, and consider that London is bigger than your population twice over.  Anyway, who'd want to go to Norway?  You can't eat scenery.
 
Actually, I generally quite like Norway and Norwegians.  Some of them of course will talk bollocks, but only last week, the Mayor of Bergen was in my city, presenting his annual tree, along with expressions of eternal friendship, thanks, etc., or similar.  The King of Norway does the same in London (the tree in Trafalgar Square).   

Nice.

[Ade]

Neo, compare our land area with that of Norway, and consider that London is bigger than your population twice over.  Anyway, who'd want to go to Norway?  You can't eat scenery.

Who? Um, those of us that appreciate a little more than being crowded into an overpopulated dirty city overrun by lager louts and "hoodies". 

I guess your comment on "eating the scenery" has something to do with income or some such? Last time I checked GDP per capita was only exceeded by Qatar and Luxembourg beating out the US by some and the UK by a great deal. 
 

Actually, I generally quite like Norway and Norwegians.  Some of them of course will talk bollocks, but only last week, the Mayor of Bergen was in my city, presenting his annual tree, along with expressions of eternal friendship, thanks, etc., or similar.  The King of Norway does the same in London (the tree in Trafalgar Square).   

Nice.

Yes, you're right that there are some Norwegians that talk total bollocks, but hey, that's true with just about every nation. 

I thought that this Sculler dude was working in the UK for a while and that's why he wanted to get his girl there.

[Sculler]

I thought I had mentioned it on my initial post, but only alluded to he fact that I already have a US K-1 visa application at the US Embassy in Moscow. We applied last January. She was scheduled for her interview in October, but in August, I was offered a one year job in the UK to run a project for the US Navy beginning in October. So we have our K-1 on hold (by permission of the Embassy). I didn't think the UK visa would be an issue since she already had one granted in May that expired in mid-November, so if she was going to overstay her visa, she would've come here in October to meet me and stayed. But we chose to play by the rules. Fat lot of good that did us. At least I have my Russian visa so we can spend New Years together in Russia.

[GoodOlBoy]

Russia only has a surplus since they spend little on their people and country.  Infrastructure is poor, military is weak, majority of the people are very poor.  Putin does little to help the people as he wants to rebuild the military first. 

Kievstar, I completely agree with your analysis, with one exception. Putin will throw some money around Moscow region for upgrades. But anywhere else in Russia.....forget it.

Putin is a backwards, KGB jack a** .

The President of Russia, Dmitry Medvedev is just a puppet of Putin's regime.

I am sure before Medvedev uses the toilet, he calls Putin to find out how many sheets of toilet paper he can use to wipe his a**.

[GoodOlBoy]

At least I have my Russian visa so we can spend New Years together in Russia.

Sculler, have a safe trip and enjoy New Years in Russia with your lady!

[Shadow]

my ex-wife applied for a tourist visa when she was 18, she was refused it for the usual not believing her intentions BS, as a result her spouse visa was refused (yes really), we appealed to the immigration department via a MP and got nowhere. they are a complete law to themselves. gave up and moved to paris. even with 4 years of marriage she never once got a visitors visa for the UK.

Neo if you have moved to Paris and are married, your wife actually can not be refused a visitors or spouse visa to the UK, providing you will travel with her. Check the EU court verdicts known as the BRAX and Carpenter arrest for proof.
While you are UK resident in the UK the laws of the UK apply to you. As soon as you live some time abroad, the EU rules apply and they are less strict.. for now.

[coolhand]

Dear Sculler


I am sorry to hear of your problem - as a UK "member"..

a UK Visitors Visa would only apply for six months for the first and second application...this applies to everyone.. then you can apply for a longer stays...

Shadow, sorry mate, has misinformed you re the EU route as the UK did not sign the relevant EU Directive re rights of Spouses or dependent "family members"...

the EU route would only apply if one member was an EU citizen or you had worked in an EU state ( other than the UK more than six  months) .. I'm assuming you are a US Citizen.

To satisfy the UK, to get a Family permit- not a UK Visa - as the Family Permit WOULD allow your lady to work- based on one member being an EU citizen you would have to have lived and worked FIVE years or more in third party EU state and qualified for permanent residency there ( as a non EU citizen AND confirming long -term relationship durability) and the wait would be six months if you WERE an EU citizen and the relationship was "durable".





I'm certain that you would get a six month vistors visa - if you can demonstrate durability and your ability to support your fiancee.

You need to visit one of the specialist UK immigration forums

You can pm me for advice.. if I'm still "around"..

PS If you think the UK is "bad" .. there are plenty of UK guys who will tell you their WIVES can't get VISITORS visas to go to the US to see Disneyworld.. reason "not married long enough to prove durability of marriage" !

[Shadow]

Shadow, sorry mate, has misinformed you re the EU route as the UK did not sign the relevant EU Directive re rights of Spouses or dependent "family members"...

the EU route would only apply if one member was an EU citizen or you had worked in an EU state ( other than the UK more than six  months) .. I'm assuming you are a US Citizen.

To satisfy the UK, to get a Family permit- not a UK Visa - as the Family Permit WOULD allow your lady to work- based on one member being an EU citizen you would have to have lived and worked FIVE years or more in third party EU state and qualified for permanent residency there ( as a non EU citizen AND confirming long -term relationship durability) and the wait would be six months if you WERE an EU citizen and the relationship was "durable".

Being Dutch I am an EU citizen a long time, no misinformation here. And the UK is bound by EU laws like any other EU country, however each country has the rights to add or change directives for their own citizens.
This is a very strange legal situation which makes that in many EU countries national citizens are subject to stricter immigration laws as citizens from another EU country.

[coolhand]

Hi Shadow,

I'm afraid the UK and Ireland  did NOT sign up to Directive  2004/38/EC

http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/citizenship/movement/fsj_citizenship_movement_en.htm

Therefore the UK and Ireland rules are different.

Here is the specific UK requirements re Visitor visas..

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/immigrationlaw/immigrationrules/part2/

My Wife is Russian, we've worn the T-shirt and recently been through the UK Visitor and EEA Family permit mire..

The UK opted out and applies it own rules to UK and non EU nationals.

With respect, therefore you have ( in regard to the UK and the OP ) offered incorrect info.

[Shadow]

Hi Shadow,

I'm afraid the UK and Ireland  did NOT sign up to Directive  2004/38/EC

http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/citizenship/movement/fsj_citizenship_movement_en.htm

Therefore the UK and Ireland rules are different.

Here is the specific UK requirements re Visitor visas..

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/immigrationlaw/immigrationrules/part2/

My Wife is Russian, we've worn the T-shirt and recently been through the UK Visitor and EEA Family permit mire..

The UK opted out and applies it own rules to UK and non EU nationals.

With respect, therefore you have ( in regard to the UK and the OP ) offered incorrect info.

The directive is one that all member states have been forced to incorporate in their local laws before April 30, 2006.
http://www.cpag.org.uk/cro/wrb/wrb192/Right%20to%20reside%20-%20new%20rules.htm
Apart from this directive, a case for EU rights has been won by a British citizen before this.
Carpenter arrest
Finally a recent report from the European Commision on implementation, where you see that England is mentioned.
http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/news/intro/doc/com_2008_840_en.pdf

Where you are probably mixing information is the requirement to obtain visa for traveling (Schengen/non Schengen), however the right of free movement does apply to the UK as it does to other member states. Also you should know that as UK resident the UK has, as most other member states, the right to apply different rules. Should however a EU resident apply the directive would have to be implemented. As for UK residents, as soon as they obtain a residence permit for another EU state and wish to return to the UK (usually a minimal six month period applies) they are to be treated as EU citizens, not as UK citizens.

As said before the matter is quite conflicting, but the UK is not exempt from EU law as you might believe.

[UTRO]

Canada is probably even harder to get into than the UK on a Tourist Visa, especially for a Woman. There are definitely not a lot of Russian Tourists wandering our cities, mountains and forests, like there are Britons. We too must marry our RW/FSU out of country and then apply for a Family Class Visa
Back to the UK.... Svetlana went to University in London on a Student Visa without problems. After her schooling she again applied, this time on a Tourist Visa. Refused. Sveta owns her own flat outright.
Norway, I love Norway SJ! Just like Canada, beer is way overtaxed

[coolhand]

The directive is one that all member states have been forced to incorporate in their local laws before April 30, 2006.
http://www.cpag.org.uk/cro/wrb/wrb192/Right%20to%20reside%20-%20new%20rules.htm

Shadow, it is no good quoting cases that don't help the OP ( I'm pesuming he is a US citizen ) and the url deals with  EU/ EEA citizens and their family members right to claim social benefits after a period of LEGAL residency in a third EU/EA country... It does NOT deal with right of entry of residence !!

Apart from this directive, a case for EU rights has been won by a British citizen before this.
Carpenter arrest

sorry the link doesn't work..

I'm *guessing* you may be referring to the Human Rights based case that was decided re the UK Police storing DNA on the database of folk charged of a crime but not convicted..?

If so, you are confusing an HR ruling from the "European Court of Human Rights " - NOTHING to do with the EU or EC.. this is a TOTALLY separate body.. as nations like Turkey are signatories..

If I'm assuming wrong, please let me have a url that works.

Finally a recent report from the European Commision on implementation, where you see that England is mentioned.
http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/news/intro/doc/com_2008_840_en.pdf

Thanks, I'm WELL aware of my rights to reside in other EU states - how do you think my Russian wife and her son  are in the UK, without the normal crap  ($1000 Visas per family member) .. on an EEA Family Permit ?

Again, Shadow HOW does this help the OP?  This Directive deals with "the right of citizens of the Union and their
family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States".. 

As the UK did NOT sign up to this Directive, no rights are inferred to non EU/ EEA folk through long-term residency via this Directive as far as the UK is concerned..  So this won't help a US / NZ, Australian, etc.

As said before the matter is quite conflicting, but the UK is not exempt from EU law as you might believe.

Sorry Shadow, none of your examples "help" the OP. His right to residency in the UK does NOT infer rights to his fiancee.

[Shadow]

Coolhand, anyone who has a 5-year residence permit in the EU, which is basicly needed to live, is considered a EU citizen and has all rights of a EU citizen. This means that all laws applying to a EU citizen also aply to any non-EU nationality who has a 5-year residence permit.

The arrest I linked to can be fount under case number C/060-00 and deals with the rights of a non-eu citizen married to a EU citizen from England.

Understand that there has just been a debate in our country regarding the possibilities of the EU law and how they are abused by immigrants (non-eu nationals) who use their EU citizen rights in order to get their partners in quickly and while not following the rules the Dutch government has set to harden the spousal immigration.
there for I am well informed about non-EU nationals who have EU citizenship rights.

[taras bulbas]

I am British and have a Russian wife. I wrote to the Uk Visa service on the point that if my wife has a Schengen Visa, which she has, can she come to the UK with me visa free under the free movement rule for EU citizens and their spouses? A definite no they replied, she needs to go through the UK visa application process.

What the UK authorities demand seems to be no more punishing than what we had to provide to the Spanish Embassy in Kiev to get her a visa to Spain for two weeks.

You might also want to look at the ramblings of expats living in Moscow on the subject

http://www.redtape.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=26345

[coolhand]

Coolhand, anyone who has a 5-year residence permit in the EU, which is basicly needed to live, is considered a EU citizen and has all rights of a EU citizen. This means that all laws applying to a EU citizen also aply to any non-EU nationality who has a 5-year residence permit.

But neither Sculler ( the OP ) nor his fiancee qualify .. we aren't helping HIM ..!!

The arrest I linked to can be fount under case number C/060-00 and deals with the rights of a non-eu citizen married to a EU citizen from England.

Thanks.. but how does this help our OP?

...there for I am well informed about non-EU nationals who have EU citizenship rights.

As you have quoted ECHR cases as if they were EC/EU related ... the ECJ is an ENTIRELY different animal ..and cannot seem to grasp the role of EU Directives appertaining to UK Immigration Law ( especially when the UK has SPECIFICALLY opted out)......


I ask again, how does your "advice" help our OP ? .. All you have posted is only relevent to a Non EU/ EEA citizen aquiring rights aftering five years residency or being marriage to or cohabiting  / in a durable relationship with a qualifying EU / EA citizen ..

The UK does NOT have to follow EU Directives relating to non qualifying EU/EEA citizens from (say) the USA and their finacees and THIS is poor Sculler's problem...

Your post could be used by a rabied UK Eurosceptic to "prove" that the "UK's powers are being eroded and transferred to Brussels"  

[Shadow]

First of all I was replying to Neo, not to the OP. As such I apologize for the off-topic, as it is indeed not applicable to a US citizen that has no EU rights in another country as the UK.

On the other hand, if you have read my links, I have already demonstrated to you that England *is*  subject to the EU laws and *has* implemented these procedures. No matter how much you may claim that they 'opted out', there is no escape for England in implementing procedures and laws. As the information is in Dutch I can not show you, but I have proof that multiple person have used the EU laws to obtain residence permits in the UK.

Just to make it clear to the OP, and maybe to you, this are the *rights* of EU citizens in *all* EU countries.

- EU citizen are those who obtained citizenship by nationality or by obtaining a 5-year residence permit in any EU state
- In the country of nationality or where the residence permit was issued, the countries laws apply, they go above the EU laws. Every country has the right to request additional criteria and apply restrictions.
- EU citizen have the right of free movement and work within all of the EU.
- As a result of this right, EU citizens have the right to obtain a residence and working visa in any EU state.
- If an EU citizen uses his right of free movement, the right is extended to his direct family members in single line. This means his parents, children and partner.
- Upon proof of marriage and identity, any EU state is obliged to admit and issue visa to a spouse of an EU citizen of another EU state regardless of their way of entry and if the entry was lawful.

As long as the OP is a US citizen in the UK, and does not move to another country, the UK immigration and visa laws apply, just as they apply to any UK citizen. Should he be married or have a registered partnership (for countries where this is declared equal to marriage) he can, having a UK residence and work permit, travel with his spouse to any EU country and will have the right to be admitted with his spouse.


Finally here the official guidelines from the UK Border Agency.
Note the first paragraph:

1. Introduction
European Community law provides all European Union (EU) citizens and their family
members the right to move freely and reside within the EU. Free movement rights are
governed by the Free Movement Directive 2004/38/EC, which all EU Member States
are obliged to incorporate into domestic legislation. In the UK this takes the form of
the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 (referred to as
EEA Regulations).

These free movement rights are subject to judgements by the European Court of
Justice (ECJ). Court cases may arise after a Member State has been challenged
over its implementation or after a Member State raises a question about the
implementation of the legislation. The resulting case-law from ECJ judgements will
be binding on all Member States.

People coming to the UK who are entitled to free movement do not require leave to
enter or remain. All EU, EEA and Swiss nationals and their families should be dealt
with as seeking admission under the EEA Regulations and not under the Rules.