Ukraine-- Is it safe...

[Muddy]

Have you been there recently?

Because of the economy situation do you feel comfortable to travel to Ukraine as you did before??

[GoodOlBoy]

Have you been there recently?

No

Because of the economy situation do you feel comfortable to travel to Ukraine as you did before??

Yes


BTW....IMHO, FSU women hate "weak" men. So my best advise to you is be confident. Even if you are scared sh*tless when you get there! 

[Muddy]

SOME POSTS I READ ABOUT THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE IN THIS TOPIC:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8429.0

YES, TRIED TO READ ALL 20 PAGES....


John K
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   Re: Economic Mournings
« Reply #290 on: December 11, 2008, 09:16:10 AM » Quote 

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Well, I heard about all this before my wife ever went over.  Marina chats with her mother on ICQ almost every day and also by phone a couple of times a week.  Marina's godmother is an officer in the bank, so she is privy to a lot of knowledge.

I talked with Marina a couple of nights ago and she told me that ATMs no longer dispense dollars, which I figured would happen.  Apparently, the 10% fee is even applying to ATMs, at least that is what I'm being told.  Also, the hryvna is trading 7 to the dollar right now, but the banks expect it to go to 14 to the dollar after the new year.  Everyone is hoarding dollars...

As far as the extinguisher and first aid kit go, I don't know if it's an old law or a new one.  I do know that all the cops are out on practically every street corner, stopping any car that looks expensive, so they can get their "fine".  If you drive an old beat up Ukrainian car they don't stop you very often.

Marina is only over there for 2 months this time, but to be honest, this is the first trip I've ever worried about her well being while she's over there.  I can easily see the whole situation over there destabilizing in a big way...



John K
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   Ukrainian Economic Situation
« Reply #286 on: December 08, 2008, 04:45:16 PM » Quote 

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The Hryvna has depreciated against the dollar about 100% from this summer.  When I was over there in late July, the hryvna was around 4-4.5 hryvnas to the dollar.  Now, it is at 8 hryvnas to the dollar, with banks expecting it to go to 10 after the new year.

This is a serious concern to travellers abroad for a number of reasons.  First, you can only legally exchange your dollars for hryvnas at banks, now.  If you try to exchange them on the street at a street exchange and you get caught, you will go to jail!  Second, banks are taking a 10% "transaction fee" for every dollar you exchange for hryvnas.  Third, banks will no longer change hryvnas for dollars.  The Ukrainian banks are hoarding dollars and refuse to give them out.

I believe there is no problem getting dollars out of ATMs yet, but if I hear differently I will let you know.

Remember, forewarned is forearmed...

PS:  Don't go driving a car in Ukraine, unless you have a fire extinguisher and first aid kit in the car.  If you are stopped by a cop and you don't have these items, it is a $50 fine.  Of course, the cops are stopping the new, nice cars especially...




ScottinCrimea
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   Re: Economic Mournings
« Reply #246 on: November 21, 2008, 07:39:58 PM » Quote 

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My wife just got back from Crimea and I was quizzing her on how things are there now.  She says much has changed in the year that she has been gone.  Apparently people there went on a credit spending spree.  She says there are now so many cars around Simferopol that it's practically bumper to bumper.  And these aren't just Lada's and Moskvich's, but cars ranging in the $30,000 plus range.  Hard to say how many of these will get repossessed now that many are losing work and the ability to pay the monthly payments, especially with the high interest rates there on consumer credit.  She also said a lot more people have taken out mortgages on houses and apartments.  The banks are desperately trying to work out alternate arrangements to avoid foreclosure because they don't want to dump a bunch of foreclosed property on the market, further driving down the prices.  So far they have dropped about 30%.  As I read the newspaper she brought with her, it shows car prices down 10%, computers and other electronics 10%, gas 10%, fur coats 20% and food prices stable, though she noted that food prices are a minimum of 100% higher than a year ago. For example the samt 10 eggs you could buy before for 4 hrv are now 10 hrv. Natural gas deliver has been cut 30% causing some difficulty in keeping their homes warm.  She had a really difficult time getting dollars as no one wanted to give them up, and at the airport she couldn't find anyone who would exchange the hryvn she had left so she just spent it on souvenirs.

Most there are as much or more pessimistic about the near future as those here and expect at least two years of difficult times.  Still, I think for most it's just a disappointing return to the way things were for them not so long ago.

As far as our property there, the 30% is a drop in the bucket since the value lof our apartment has increases 300% since we bought it.  In reality the value is irrelevant because we have no intentions of ever selling it.  Its value as a home remains the same.  As far as our commercial property, in the short run, between the higher dollar and the cheaper cost of labor and supplies, the remodel will cost less.  In the mid to long term, we may have more difficulty finding tenants and will probably have to lease it for less, but financially it's just an extra for us and since we never paid money to purchase it and pay cash only for the remodel, therefore having no debt on it, it's not such a big deal.  We can wait it out.

On the ligher side, it's great to have my wife back.



groovlstk
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   Re: Economic Mournings
« Reply #197 on: October 28, 2008, 07:26:53 PM » Quote 

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Makkin,

Awhile back you mentioned that you had a fiancee in Ukraine. I hope things worked out for you and I doubly hope you were able to get her out of there. Things seem to be going from bad to worse. For those of us with family in Ukraine and Russia, the next year is going to be interesting.   



groovlstk
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   Re: Economic Mournings
« Reply #152 on: October 26, 2008, 06:06:12 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Andrew James on October 26, 2008, 05:37:19 PM
Moreover, I feel there is a risk (with aspiring husbands like me) of appearing like a cynical opportunist in such times, ready to swoop and save the day when countries (and more significantly, their women) are trouble. Might bring out the White Knight in us, but from what I have read here, this is a very bad foundation for a lasting relationship, especially as Russians are (rightly) a very proud and passionate people, emotions that nonetheless have their dark side.

This risk runs both ways, if conditions worsen you'll have a wider pool of desperate women eager to relocate to more prosperous countries. While some men will love their new-found ability to date even further out of their league than before, ultimately this is a bad thing once fiancee visas are issued and women who emigrated for reasons other than love discard their foolish suitors for more worthy men.

If economic conditions do worsen in Russia and Ukraine, before even dipping your foot in the pool you should come to terms with the likelihood that if you find and marry a woman, you will very likely be on the hook for supporting her family through difficult times.   


ambach123
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   Re: Economic Mournings
« Reply #136 on: October 25, 2008, 04:06:58 PM » Quote 

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Consider the following scenario:

The banks are shut down, and so is the stock market.  The foreigners have withdrawn all of the money out of the country. The country  has defaulted on its loan. The local currency has no value, there is no legitimate channel to convert it into dollars.

People are buying from the stores and hoarding, with whatever money they have. There are no jobs anywhere, the economy is almost shut down.

The country is bankrupt.

This is Iceland of today, and Ukraine of tomorrow.

Consider this, Iceland used to be one of the richest countries in the world.


ambach123
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   Re: Economic Mournings
« Reply #126 on: October 25, 2008, 07:34:41 AM » Quote 

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When I was in Kiev six weeks ago, I saw a lot of cars, construction everywhere, a sense of prosperity and of course high prices. Restaurants were full, foreigners everywhere.

Little did I know that all of this was a house of cards. None of these people paid for any of this. They borrowed from the banks who lent them the money that foreigners had invested in there.

These foreigners have pulled out their money from Ukraine.

I think sooner or later and probably very soon, Ukraine would be a bankrupt country; what happened in late nineties would look like a picnic.

IMF, where Ukraine has gone to for help, has most of word coming to them; I doubt if they would or can help.

It is stunning how in a few weeks a seemingly prosperous country can go bankrupt; even though that prosperity was a mirage.

In a matter of weeks the Ukrainian currency will be devalued to one half of what it was a few weeks ago.




ScottinCrimea
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   Re: Economic Mournings
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2008, 02:28:52 PM » Quote 

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I'm curious to know how people think Ukraine will suffer more than we will in the US, particularly the average Ukrainian.  They don't as a rule have mortgages, so they aren't in danger of losing their houses, even if they might lose their jobs. The average person deals on a cash level and is not accustomed to having credit so this isn't much of a change for them.  They don't invest in the stock market and whether it goes up or down doesn't affect their portfolios.  Many, like my wife's family, have a dacha where they grow and preserve their own food.  Their everyday economy is really more local that international or even national.  Of course there is the issue of decreased value of the grivna raising the prices of imports and some basic commodities, and the increased potential for job loss without the safety net of unemployment insurance, but they are quite used to dealing with shortages and subsisting on a bare minimum, so it would seem like just another cycle to them.

As far as government services and benefits being cut, there isn't that much in the first place, so nothing really changes there.

Of course the wealthy, the banks and those involved in international business and commerce will be hit, but I'm not sure I see that trickling down to the common man so much.

I'd be interested in hearing others' views on this.







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   Re: Economic Mournings
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2008, 04:58:51 PM » Quote 

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Hmmm,

  I suppose you might try telling a Ukrainian that they won't suffer and the reaction they might have is I'm already suffering?

  Imagine every economic sector of the western world suffering and even those like the Ukrainians will suffer more. It's a trickle down or trickle up problem that has no safety net in sight except the financial sector and business as usual.

  Surely the less production of food will happen and those countries who give to the poor may give less?
   Ukrainians will suffer more because what they have seen now is nothing compared to what is about to happen in Europe.

Makkin


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   Re: Economic Mournings
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2008, 09:49:55 PM » Quote 

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Makkin


Makkin, you didnt provide any specifics about specifically how Ukrainians will suffer more except that there might be less production of food in other countries so they won't send so much to a poor country such as Ukraine.  To my best knowledge, Ukraine doesn't depend on food donations from other countries.  They seem to produce their own quite nicely and have enough to export as well.

The average Ukrainain has been working without a safety net for a long time now.  They have learned not to depend on their government to bail them out in hard times as we have in the West.  They depend on their own resources and on their family and friends.  We have gotten too used to either borrowing more money to survive in hard times or expecting government programs to prop us up.  We haven't built up the savings or types of relationships that will pull us through hard times. Now that the credit has dried up, the government is broke and our "friends" are looking the other way, we're lost.

Of course I'm generalizing to a large degree.  Many in the West used their common sense and were prepared, especially those who went through some of the financial crises of the past and learned their lesson.  Perhaps this is all a good "teaching moment" for those who won't learn from the past.


I don't disagree that Russia in general will suffer more, but again, that those most affected will be those in the upper middle class and above and those in the larger cities such as Moscow and SPB whose economies have grown on the back of the rise in oil prices.  Russia is a big, diverse country and it would be difficult to make any type of generalizations.  That's why I chose to focus more on Ukraine.

[GoodBrew]

Have you been there recently?

November 29 - December 6

Because of the economy situation do you feel comfortable to travel to Ukraine as you did before??

Yes, the return trip is planned for February.   

[Muddy]

Any problems with exchanging dollar for Hryvna at the exchanges on the streets? Or did you have to do it in the banks?

I would rather take cash with me instead of bank cards, maybe next timeits better if I take less cash and use my bank cards

[GoodBrew]

Any problems with exchanging dollar for Hryvna at the exchanges on the streets? Or did you have to do it in the banks?

Not really.  I used both currency exchanges and banks during my stay.

[ChrisBfla]

Ukraine is a hell of a lot safer than going to Detroit, parts of Miami or Hartford, Connecticut, Jacksonville, FL (you name it)

[Diplomacy]

It is safe unless you get one of the women mad, then 8 mile is not looking like such a bad place.  Weak and timid is not on the dance card lol.

[neo]

Ukraine has been in some sort of economic mishap or crisis as far as I can remember. The real economy bears no relation to the black market economy, Ukrainians are far better at dealing with economic disasters than the westerners are, therefore I would reckon you have more chance of seeing riots in uptown NYC when peoples credit cards no longer work than you are to see any problems in Ukraine.

[Sculpto]

Isn't the perceived danger part of the allure?  Though, I agree I feel safer there than in a lot of parts of the USA...

[ScottinCrimea]

Not really.  I used both currency exchanges and banks during my stay.

My wife was just telling me that all of the currency exchange kiosks are now closed and you can only change dollars in banks as some have mentioned.  You were there recently and say you did exchange money at the currency exchanges on the street.  So they are still there and working?

[Bjoern]

Ukraine is not safe !
 When i meet my Women in Kiev Station...She was almost killing me by her charm.
 The next hours she takes my breath away, such a nice and warm Women.
 Ukraine is a place where You ending Your single life...and end upp in Happy realationship.

  The last week in november 2008 i invite my Women to visit me in Kiev.
She lives in Vinnitsa and i pick her upp at Kiev Station. I rent an apartment and was very happy and safe
about this trip.

 Some advices: I recomend to excanged valuta at bank. it is safe and you have an document. If you bringing a lot of
money with You, it can be smart to have a document that are stamped by passport office.
 When You are guest in a foreign contry,You act like a guest.To drink a lot and get drunk is a bad action and not safe.
 Knowing who you are dealing with and do business with trusting people.
 Be careful when crossing streets . A lot of car drivers are driving on Red Light.
Ukrainian people are known to be very hospitable and friendly.                                                                                                                       

[GoodBrew]

My wife was just telling me that all of the currency exchange kiosks are now closed and you can only change dollars in banks as some have mentioned.  You were there recently and say you did exchange money at the currency exchanges on the street.  So they are still there and working?

My gf tells me that the exchanges will be closed effective Jan. 1 and only banks will change dollars.  I do not know how accurate her information is, but she will have more info for me later.   

[ECOCKS]

My advice - FWIW:

1. Ukraine is relatively safe if you have any common sense. Stay around people/crowds and public places.  Get advice from reliable people and stay in groups where possible.

2. Use your ATM cards for cash as needed. 

3. Only exchange enough at the airport for your immediate needs.

4. Most likely crime for you to be involved in are the old-fashioned wallet drop scams.  Don't touch anything dropped in front of you.  Fight down that Good Samaritan instinct and keep walking. If anyone touches you give them a strong look and square off as if you are about to fight.

5. Keep the Consulate phone number on your cell and don't hesitate to tell a "militsia" officer you're just going to call the EMBASSY for a translator. Note: this works even if you don't have a Ukrainian cell phone.  Just take the phone out, look intently at the officer and say, "I am calling the embassy."

6. Never loan your cell to someone you don't trust.  They ask to make phone calls and transfer your balance to their phone or run with it like the old stories about cameras.

If something is too good to be true, it probably is.

[OlgaH]

Safety in Ukraine: Avoiding Theft and Personal Danger
http://www.tryukraine.com/info/safety.shtml

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1053.html#safety

SAFETY AND SECURITY:  Ukraine is largely free of significant civil unrest or any organized anti-American domestic political movements.  Occasionally, mass demonstrations occur in larger cities, such as Kyiv, and are usually sponsored by individual political organizations.  There has been an upsurge in the number of anti-NATO protests; these protests are likely to increase in size and frequency as Ukraine pursues closer ties to the alliance.  While the majority of these protests are small and peaceful, they can still result in violence and it is best to avoid such gatherings.

There also have been increasing incidents of racially-motivated violence; groups of “skinheads” and neo-Nazis target people of Asian, African, or other non-European descent, as well as religious minorities, in Kyiv and throughout Ukraine (see the section on Crime below).

For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should regularly monitor the Department’s web site at http://travel.state.gov/, where the current Worldwide Caution Public Announcement, Travel Warnings and Public Announcements can be found.

Up-to-date information on safety and security can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll-free in the U.S., or for callers outside the U.S. and Canada, a regular toll-line at 1-202-501-4444.  These numbers are available from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal holidays).

The Department of State urges American citizens to take responsibility for their own personal security while traveling overseas.  For general information about appropriate measures travelers can take to protect themselves in an overseas environment, see the Department of State’s A Safe Trip Abroad.

CRIME:  Ukraine is undergoing a significant economic, political, and social transformation, and income disparities have grown sharply.  As a result, foreign visitors may be perceived as wealthy and easy targets for criminals.  Americans often stand out in Ukraine, and are therefore more likely to be targeted than in Western European countries, where incomes are higher and Americans may blend in better.

Most street crime ranges from various scams, simple pocket picking, purse snatching, and theft of personal items from parked cars, to mugging, armed robbery, or the drugging of unsuspecting victims at nightspots and bars (where they are then robbed).  Cases of assaults in apartment building corridors, elevators, and stairwells, as well as armed break-ins and crimes involving small caliber firearms have been reported.

A commonly reported scam in Kyiv is”The Wallet Scam”, which involves a person dropping a wallet or a packet of money near a potential victim.  After the victim picks up the wallet and attempts to return it to the individual who “dropped” it, the perpetrator then claims that the wallet is missing money and accuses the victim of stealing it.   The perpetrator either threatens to call the police if the victim does not pay, or asks the victim to show his or her wallet to the perpetrator to ensure that the victim did not take any money.  When the victim produces his or her wallet, the perpetrator grabs the money and flees.  Another variant involves a second person who claims to be a police officer and who approaches the victim after the wallet has been picked up.  This second person also asks to see the wallet, grabbing the money and fleeing or, through sleight-of-hand, stealing the victim’s money.

While most travelers do not encounter problems with crime in Ukraine, there has been an increase in the number of hate crimes directed at ethnic and religious minorities over the past few years. Many of these incidents are conducted by “skinheads” or neo-Nazis in Kyiv, but similar crimes have also been reported throughout the country. In Kyiv, these incidents have occurred without provocation in prominent downtown areas commonly frequented by tourists.  While the majority of people targeted have been of Asian, African, or other non-European descent, all travelers should exercise caution.  In addition to incidents of assault, racial minorities may be subject to various types of harassment, such as being stopped on the street by both civilians and law enforcement officials. Individuals belonging to religious minorities have also been harassed and assaulted in Kyiv and throughout Ukraine.

The police and government’s slow response to hate crimes is a continuing concern.  Although senior Government of Ukraine officials (including the President and Prime Minister) have publicly deplored these hate crimes and groups, Ukrainian street-level law enforcement activities are unable to effectively deter hate crimes or adequately protect racial minorities.  The Embassy has received numerous reports from victims of violent hate crimes, as well as from bystanders, stating that uniformed police officers observed the assaults and did nothing to prevent the attacks, to assist the victims afterward, or to investigate and apprehend the attackers.  The Government of Ukraine took initial steps to address the problem in the final months of 2007 with the establishment of special law enforcement units to prevent and investigate hate crimes in Ukraine.  It remains to be seen if these units will be effective.

Credit card and ATM fraud is an issue.  Ukraine generally operates as a cash economy, and money scams are widespread.  Although credit card and ATM use among Ukrainians is increasingly common, it is nevertheless strongly recommended that visitors and permanent residents of Ukraine exercise caution when using credit cards or ATM cards at any establishment in Ukraine.

Burglaries of apartments and vehicles represent a significant threat to long-term residents.  Although few cars are actually stolen, primarily because of increased use of alarm systems and security wheel locks, vehicular break-ins and vehicular vandalism are common.

Ukraine lacks reliable tourist and travel services for foreign victims of crime.  Transferring funds from the United States, replacing stolen traveler’s checks or airline tickets, or canceling credit cards can be difficult and time consuming.  There are few safe low-cost lodgings, such as youth hostels.  Public facilities in Ukraine are generally not equipped to accommodate persons with physical disabilities.

Over the past several years, the Embassy has received a number of reports of harassment and intimidation directed against foreign businesspersons and interests.  While these reports have become much less frequent in recent years, they have not ended entirely.  Reported incidents range from physical threats (possibly motivated by rival commercial interests tied to organized crime), to local government entities engaging in such practices as arbitrary termination or amendment of business licenses, dilution of corporate stock to diminish U.S. investor interest, delays of payment or delivery of goods, and arbitrary “inspections” by tax, safety or other officials that appear designed to harm the business rather than a genuine attempt at good governance. American businesses and other private sector organizations are also encouraged to read the most recent Overseas Security Advisory Council (OSAC) Annual Crime and Safety Report for Ukraine at http://www.osac.gov/Regions/country.cfm?country=42.

The Embassy suggests refraining from wiring money unless the recipient is well-known and the purpose of business is clear.  American citizens have reported transferring money to Ukraine to pay for goods purchased from residents of Ukraine via online auction sites, but never receiving the goods in return.  The Embassy regularly receives complaints from Americans regarding scams involving marriage and dating services.  Numerous Americans have lost money to agencies and individuals that claimed they could arrange for student or fiancée visas to the U.S.  Additional information is available on our web site in a document titled “Marriage Brokers” at http://kyiv.usembassy.gov/amcit_marriage_eng.html and on the Department of State’s web site under Ukraine: Internet and Other Fraud Schemes. 

In many countries around the world, counterfeit and pirated goods are widely available.  Transactions involving such products may be illegal under local law.  In addition, bringing them back to the United States may result in forfeitures and/or fines.  More information on this serious problem is available at
http://www.cybercrime.gov/18usc2320.htm .

Back to Top

INFORMATION FOR VICTIMS OF CRIME:  The loss or theft abroad of a U.S. passport should be reported immediately to both the local police and the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate.  If you are the victim of a crime while overseas, in addition to reporting to local police, please contact the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate for assistance.  The Embassy/Consulate staff can, for example, assist you in finding appropriate medical care, contacting family members or friends and explaining how funds could be transferred.  Although the investigation and prosecution of a crime abroad is solely the responsibility of local authorities, consular officers can help you to understand the local criminal justice process and to provide a list of local attorneys who have informed the Embassy that they are willing to take foreign clients.

There is no local equivalent to the “911” emergency line in Ukraine. There are emergency numbers to call in case of:

Fire – 01
Police – 02
Ambulance – 03

If dialing from a cellular phone, dial 101, 102, or 103 respectively or call the cellular phone operator for assistance.

Visitors should be aware that Ukrainian police and emergency services still generally remain below Western European and U.S. standards in terms of training, responsiveness, and effectiveness.  American citizens have reported waiting sometimes hours for Ukrainian police and ambulance services to respond to calls for emergency assistance.  Although this may be atypical, it does nevertheless occur. 

See our information on Victims of Crime.

For the latest security information, Americans living and traveling abroad should regularly monitor the Department’s Bureau of Consular Affairs web site at http://travel.state.gov, where the current Worldwide Cautions, Travel Alerts, and Travel Warnings can be found.
http://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=95055

[IAmZon]

I apologize for my recent and excessive comparisons of Colombia (nevertheless, such comparisons my be useful to some) ... Today, I realized anew how fricken dangerous Colombia REALLY is today. 

I was walking by myself in not the best neighborhood, running through the "what ifs" in my mind; does not take much to make one jumpy.  On the corner was the police station that the FARC bombed 3 months ago.  NOT A SMALL BOMB!  Think small nuclear.

Things can go very bad for a gringo, very fast in Colombia.  It is not really advisable to venture out of well established "safe" areas.  The safe areas are nicer and more modern than you would assume. I am sad to admit that I am CHICKEN to take a car, or motorcycle and blast off in any direction ... the country looks beautiful!  Atlas, this place is where consequences live.

I wonder if you guys feel similarly constrained when you travel to Ukraine / Russia - especially in the remote locations?

[kryten41]

I had no trouble exchanging dollars for UAH in Simferopol at kiosks on the street and in a jewelry store as recently as January 5, 2009.  The kiosk in the jewelry store actually had a better rate than the kiosk across the street (7.9 to the dollar as opposed to 7.7).

[ScottinCrimea]

I had no trouble exchanging dollars for UAH in Simferopol at kiosks on the street and in a jewelry store as recently as January 5, 2009.  The kiosk in the jewelry store actually had a better rate than the kiosk across the street (7.9 to the dollar as opposed to 7.7).

I'm curious which jewelry store you are referring to.  I usually got the best rates at a small window near a store on Sebastopolskaya just across the Trenyova Park from Kirova.

[kryten41]

I honestly don't know--my Russian is extremely limited, and my Ukrainian consists of 3 words.  Everything in Cyrillic looks like "kaopectate" to me. We took a bus into town, got off, and walked around. 

[ECOCKS]

Exchange rate as of 10.01.2008 (Jan. 1st):

Buy $1 for  8.6 UAH

Sell  $1 for 9.3 UAH

Great place to be with dollars, cash is king at this point.

[russianfront]

My first post here..

Been to Ukraine 2 times and Russia once. No less safe than any large US city. Just gotta use some street smarts and don't be a fool. Your new lady friend will know what is OK and what it not. Likely the worst hazzard is drunk men. Stay away from the cops too..their jails are nasty.

[Simoni]

Welcome, Russianfront.  Go to the intro thread and tell us more about you!

Now, good first post.  I have spent more than 400 days in Ukraine, and found is safe.  I have been robbed in Atlanta, NY and in Spain.  But not in Ukraine.

Like you say, just be aware and be careful.  And should you be robbed in Atlanta like I was, or anywhere, don't resist.  Let them have you money and just swallow your pride of not fighting back.

[Wienerin]

I've spent more than 40 years of my life in Russia - St. Petersburg mainly, but with some 3-4 yrs. in other parts and altogether maybe 2 years in Ukraine (mostly Crimea) and Georgia, Abkhazia.

I've been for a total of 1 yr, I suppose, in Bulgaria, Hungary and Poland and Baltic States. All of these were considerably safer - even for a foreigner, as I were, than the rest of the USSR, not excluding my beloved and native St.Petersburg.

Now I'm 13+ years in the US, and let me tell you - it IS safer. No, let me say it differently - here I feel and am safe, there - in Russia nad Ukraine I was not.

Street smarts certainly help, but your street smarts generated in the US may not be what are needed even in some European countries, let alone FSU.

Say, you have a problem in the US. Do you hesitate to call police or turn for help to a police officer? I don't think so. But it took me close to two years here to start doing this, to stop being scared of policemen.

In Russia or Ukraine the real street smarts would be to evade them as far as possible. And never ever surrender your passport. Well, try to - the success is uncertain, but it's a very common ploy to take your passport to the precinct and you'll have to pay through the nose to get it back. You'll never be able to understand what was your "crime" - I couldn't, a native...

Not to go to such lengths but in France it's not a very good idea to get involved in any way with a policeman. And there's no presumption of innocence either

Theft is much more prevalent than in the US. Do not leave your jacket on a chair when you go to wash your hands or to the dance floor in a restaurant. You date is sure to be smart enough not to leave her purse, but may assume that you know such things also and tell you nothing. Do not leave nice gloves, a scarf, etc., say on a counter while you are fingering some merchandize. Do not let grocery bags out of your hands. Etc., etc., etc.

I could go on forever. My daughter-in-law just reported that by toddler grandson's pretty mittens (out of my Christmas parcel) were pinched out of his stroller while she's been paying for groceries.

Have you ever heard of an American burglar to steal groceries or ordinary, not brand new and expensive clothes? "Domestic" Russian or Ukrainian burglar will take everything that he can carry and that has even a slightest value - to sell or to consume.

My son - the one who is in St.Petersburg with his family, - when discussing with me my possible future visit said that I'll have to be led by the hand everywhere, otherwise I'll be in trouble. I've lost my "Piter" street smarts after all these years in Chicago I thought he was exagerrating but this past summer my brother was in StP for a month - after 1 day he always asked his friends or my son to accompany him. And he lived there for 60 years, and only came here in 2001. Go figure

[ScottinCrimea]

I agree that "crimes of opportunity"  seem to be much more prevalent in Ukraine.  You leave something unattended for a second and it will disappear.  On the other hand, I think you are less likely to have violent crimes committed agianst you there.

My wife has commented in the same way about the police.  She has no confidence that they will help her there, but feels safe with them here in the US.

[Wienerin]

I agree that "crimes of opportunity"  seem to be much more prevalent in Ukraine.  You leave something unattended for a second and it will disappear.  On the other hand, I think you are less likely to have violent crimes committed agianst you there.

My wife has commented in the same way about the police.  She has no confidence that they will help her there, but feels safe with them here in the US.

I do not think you're correct regarding street violence. First of all a lot more people are drunk in the streets - including teenagers. Addicts are also quite a common occurence. Especially in Ukraine - where they grow poppie crops for medical purposes, but much of the poppy straw etc. somehow lands on the drug markets not only in Ukraine but as far as StPetersburg and even Murmansk.

Second, teenagers are a lot less supervised, and though there isn't gang violence as we know it here, there is a lot of motiveless violence which is delicately called "hooliganism" - which ranges from taking a bad from a child or a granny and kicking it around the street out of reach of the victim to going 4-5 against one just because he (or she) "looked at them" in a way they didn't like.

Another thing - in most of American cities it's enough (well, almost) not to go after dark to certain neighborhoods, and if you don't know where they are - there's a very big chance you'll meet a patrol car and an officer will very politely dissuade you of going there - this is my experience so far, and all of my frieds and colleagues So, roughly speaking, if you do not want to meet with gang violence - do not go to their areas. Also they tend to do mischief towards other gangs members, not to passers by. I worked for a year in a very nasty district with many gangs, black and Hispanic, poor area... pretty much a ghetto. I've never had any problems - though admittedly I left before 6 at night.

In FSU cities there almost is no such thing as good area, bad neighborhood, etc. Not even a building or apartment complex usually - in the same building there could be awful communalk apartments like in the projects and luxurious flats bought and refurbished by the newly affluent. And there is an awful lack of police in the street - there is a saying that a police patrol is never there when you need it, and it's true. And as often as not they ARE the problem themselves.

So what could I say? If one has an established and trusting relationship with one's date - listen to her, do not say "I want to go to this or that club, I've heard that it's an interesting scene, etc.". She may know that "interesting" does not start to describe it - but she may not have words to explain to you, or may be shamaed to admit that her beloved city is less than perfect.

Somebody also posted the recommendation to go around in groups - yes, 2-3 couples and an interpreter or two not going into dark alleys and courtyards are pretty much safe. Beware of groups of teenagers - any place, any time of the day. Unless they are obviously a school group or something like this of course Do not play a hero - if possible cross the street and go to some public place like a supermarket, if you are too late - run like crazy ... your girl will know enough to run, but may hesitate if you decide to confront them.

The thing to remeber is that too many people there are too poor, desperate, and drown their sorrows in vodka. However humble your circumstances - for many people there you'll seem to possess untold riches. 

BTW, the advice not to drink heavily in a bar or a restaurant was excellent. If it becomes too noisy and boisterous - it's time to leave. If someone starts paying too much attention to yor date - it's time to leave.

Do not carry much cash on you. And it may be more expensive to change currency in a bank, but it's heaps safer. Even so my sons always go to get there money transfers from me not only with their wives but with a friend or two. People were known to be killed for as little as $100.