Ukraine-- Is it safe...

[krimster]

Ukraine is the essence of "bardak" russian for chaos.  In fact my pet name for Ukraine is "Bardakistan".  Bardak is usually bad.  In America, "spring break" refers to college students frolicking care-free on a beach.  In Ukraine, "fall break", refers to the broken, leaking pipes, that are discovered every year when the communal hot water heating systems are switched on.  If people there have a leak, their apartment gets flooded as well as the units below.  Wow, bardak!  You never know when a crisis of either political, financial, weather, or criminal will occur and your water/gas/home/car/ life can be thrown into turmoil.  All homes/apartments less than 30 feet above street level MUST have steel bars in each window, all doors must be able to stop repeated AK-47 rounds.  All of this exists for obvious reasons.  Bardak is like the wind, it blows everywhere, and be can be in the "magazine", the hallways, or in the street.  It flows inside the head of everyone who lives  there as well. 

Physics has another name for Bardak, it's called "entropy", the idea being that "things tend towards disorder".  This is an awfully accurate description of Ukraine, disorder.  Overflowing rubbish bins, young drunks hurling empty vodka bottles at passing cars, dark muddy streets full of pot-holes flanked by crumbling concrete apartments that are about the ugliest pieces of architectural trash assembled by human hand, surrounded by mounds of carelessly discarded garbage.

Bardak, I would like to point out, isn't necessarily always bad.   Sometimes, Bardak has a bright more favorable side.  One day when you take a short cut through a small section of woods, you'll look down and see a 7.92mm Mauser round in excellent condition resting by your foot, begging you to pick it up and add it to your collection.  The same short cut can take you by a cemetery with the head stones dinged by shrapnel.  Or you might have to endure being greeted on the beach by long-legged nymphs in fluorescent thongs that leave nothing at all to the imagination - oh the horror!

So bardak is of itself not about being good or bad, it's about disorder and unpredictability, a closed system that is like the Tower of Piza, leaning towards disorder, until the day comes, when it all comes tumbling down...

Bardak can only be overcome by information, which counteracts the role of entropy.

For example, in Sevastopol, avoid the Omega bar district on the day that Russian sailors are paid.  The presence of a foreigner there on payday would make you the equivalent of a village idiot with a "kick me" sign on his back at a "hooligan of the year" convention.  For added fun, locate a group of the afore mentioned sailors and approach the woman who is closest to them and offer to buy her a drink.  Let's get-ready-to-rumble!

The essence of safety is predictability and order, Ukraine has about as much a measure of these qualities as it's politicians have ability to govern effectively, i.e. absolutely zero.

Your fate is random, role the dice, turn the card, your fortune and fate have already been cast.

[dobradavid]

Things can go very bad for a gringo, very fast in Colombia.  It is not really advisable to venture out of well established "safe" areas.  The safe areas are nicer and more modern than you would assume. I am sad to admit that I am CHICKEN to take a car, or motorcycle and blast off in any direction ... the country looks beautiful!  Atlas, this place is where consequences live.

I wonder if you guys feel similarly constrained when you travel to Ukraine / Russia - especially in the remote locations?

No.

[ScottinCrimea]

Well it was certainly bardak in my neighborhood the other night when a driver, no doubt drunk and most likely undocumented, smacked into my van at a high rate of speed while it was sitting in a parking lot.  Bent the heck out of my trailer hitch and pushed the van sideways causing it to strike the car next to it and causing significant damage to that car before taking out a supporting pole for the carport.  Of course the jerk took off before anyone could spot him.  So much for predictability and order in my little corner of earth.  Bardak happens everywhere.

[krimster]

Scott,
   Try focusing on the positive things ...   

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott,
   Try focusing on the positive things ...   

Oh I am... the positive is that he hit my trailer hitch instead of anywhere else.  Probably saved me a ton in repairs.  Still amazed that a small Mitsubishi could bend a trailer hitch and still drive away.

[kievstar]

Scott, you need a better trailer hitch.  The one I had went through a small car and than some on a drunk he hit me (but it was a direct hit from behind).  No bend and still use the trailer hitch for my boat. 

I plan on putting an extra strong trailer hitch on the  large size SUV I will buy my UW as she has no idea how to drive.

[ScottinCrimea]

It was a solid steel ball mount, not the cheap aluminum kind, and weighs a ton.  He bent it a full 45 degrees laterally.

[kievstar]

Scott I was just kidding.  More than likely your car frame was not built right or angle of car crash.  Do you know which factory, time and date it was built.  Cars built on Mondays and Fridays are always of poorer quality than other days.  Also, 2nd and 3rd shift can have issues. 

[krimster]

Poker,
   Nothing "magic" about a 9 mm in terms of penetration of steel, although in Ukraine you're more likely to encounter the lesser 9 mm Makarov (9x18 mm) as opposed to a 9 mm luger (9x19).  A standard 7.62x39mm round even with a steel core is unlikely to penetrate a 6 mm steel plate.  Most doors in Ukraine include a built-in steel plate of roughly this thickness, mine was thicker.  We actually had double doors, the first being a very heavy wooden door with a thick internal metal plate, mounted on a heavy steel frame bolted onto concrete combined with a secondary door, and a heavy massive metal block surrounding the lock.  Based on my own experience of firing pistol rounds at various types of locks, this lock was bullet-proof, and the door itself would easily stop a 7.62x39. None of this is based on watching TV, just real-world experience.   Don't believe what marketing types will tell you, people have been fortifying their homes for millenia using simple and often improvised methods that are quite effective.

[Makkin]

  Poker,

  I tend to agree with Krimster and have limited "boots on ground experience". Now if I were gonna go through a door with a weapon it would be an M82A1A with one of four possible rounds of ammo. My choice would be the fifty caliber such as the weapon is and the round with A4 explosive that will penetrate two inches of steel and also follow up with a 7.62 round that will travel and additional 30-40 meters as to greet the person on the other side. The gas that follows the original slug (A4) is made in Norway and difficult to obtain for some funny reason.

  It's not hard to figure the math on weapons but getting through the door is the trick yes? Why go through the door when they will come out the door on many occasions and that's how pro's work unlike the common thief who does not have the time or wits to calculate his actions in most cases.

  Better yet Poker if you peer through that peep-hole in the door and the light from the house is gone for a few seconds then you can bet a .22 caliber could be inside your head due to only glass being the protective agent.

Makkin

[kievstar]

One thing nice about many Russian steel doors is you can break the falling apart concrete around the door with a sledge hammer.  No need to use a gun.  I have seen many doors installed from the outside meaning you can take it apart  very easily with simple tools.  Best home defense is a shotgun and a 45 (9mm for the lady).  Plus a mean German Shepherd helps.  I have all these except a nice German Shepherd.

[krimster]

Poker,
   This discussion is somewhat "academic" in the sense that illegally gaining entry to a home by way of automatic weapons is um somewhat a rare occurrence in Ukraine. 

It does however illustrate the level of precautions necessary to protect your home there.  It should also be noted that parking your car overnight on the street is a very big "no-no".  A garage is mandatory. Ours had something that I never saw in the USA, which is a massive 5 pound block of steel that encapsulated a huge Russian padlock.

Now that I moved back to the USA, I live in a house that has 23 windows and 4 doors with no steel or protection of any kind, because we don't feel threatened.  I have to say that in Ukraine living in a house with barred windows and double formidable doors gave me a feeling of being "under siege" and of "paranoia" defined as "an exaggerated distrust of others".   Which seems to be a universally felt emotion in Ukraine.  This touches on something that to me is a kind of sinister aspect of Ukrainian society and "kultura", it's level of integrity and character, this is why all the steel is necessary there. 

[Simoni]

Well it was certainly bardak in my neighborhood the other night when a driver, no doubt drunk and most likely undocumented, smacked into my van at a high rate of speed while it was sitting in a parking lot...  Of course the jerk took off before anyone could spot him.  So much for predictability and order in my little corner of earth.  Bardak happens everywhere.

Yes, it does.  Last week in the protected parking lot of our condo, someone side-swiped a neighbor's car and did not leave a note.  Only people who live here have access, so they are well off and "documented."

Honesty knows no class structure.  And class does have a double meaning.

[Misha]

Yes, it does.  Last week in the protected parking lot of our condo, someone side-swiped a neighbor's car and did not leave a note.  Only people who live here have access, so they are well off and "documented."

Here, in Canada, one province has a law whereby all collision repairs over $1,000 must be reported to the police. Given the cost of collision work, pretty much any dent will cost more than $1,000, which means that anybody banging up a parked car as Scott and Simoni would need collision work over $1,000 and would be reported to the police. There are certainly some body shops that work illegally (another story), but the law is meant as a deterrent. The goal is to cut down on unreported hit and runs, at least those times where someone is driving a car worth more than $1,000 that presumably belongs to them. The only drawback is that if all fender benders must be reported to the police, my guess is that the insurance companies will find out about it, and this will of course be a good excuse for them to raise premiums even if the two drivers decided to settle the problem without having to file an insurance claim :evil:

[Makkin]

Poker,

  I could tell you anything you wanted to know about the M82A1A included would be facts you have no knowledge of but that goes back to what Krimster mentioned about "academics".

  Since he and Scott have vast amounts of knowledge about Ukraine it would be logical for you to maybe ask them questions and be pleasantly surprised by the genuine knowledge they have.

Makkin

[krimster]

So Poker my ploy worked.  The "6 mm steel plate" was just a decoy!  Ha,Ha.  That was for the fake door, above which had a sign that read "золото и водка внутри здесь!"  Inside the door were sections of reactive armor "borrowed" from a Ukrainian T-84 tank.  Fire at this door and a millisecond later you will be a thin-layer of organic paste smeared on the opposing concrete wall.  Meanwhile, I would hear a loud concussion in my bunker signaling me to notify the cleaning staff. 
Ahhh Ukraine, good times...

[ScottinCrimea]

The outside apartment doors in Ukraine really don't need to be that strong.  As long as it prevents a drunken ex-boyfriend from kicking it in, it's just fine.  The pissing contest regarding knowledge of high powered weaponry is really irrelevant as the money would have already been spent on some high test samagon rather than on an assault rifle and armor piercing rounds.

[Misha]

Most people are under the impression that there is safety behind a steel door.  This is definitely a mistake when it comes to protection from firearms and a fatal mistake if the firearm is an assault rifle capable of firing rounds at supersonic speed. 

In Russia, most people replaced their old Soviet doors for steel doors in the 90s. Compare this to Canada where your average door in most houses is a wooden door with a window in the door or a window on either side of the door. It would take less than 10 seconds to break into the house. However, Canadians have certain expectations. They do not expect people to break in (whether it be thieves or drunken boyfriends). Also, Canadians have the expectation that if they call 911 when somebody is trying to break in that the police will be there in a few minutes. My wife and her mother called the police when somebody was trying to get into their apartment. They showed up a couple of hours later. Fortunately, they had a steel door. Yes, the average steel door might not stop someone armed with a military assault rifle, but it was considered better than an old Soviet-style wooden door as they understood that they could not rely on the police to help them if something did happen.

[krimster]

During my three years of living in Ukraine I was "hyper-vigilant" in regards to neighborhood crime in my own "hood".  There were exactly three incidents.  One was perpetrated by robbers who waited in the stairwell above the victims door.  When he arrived and un-locked the door, they jumped him, stabbed him, and cleaned out his apartment of valuables and money.  The robbers knew he had just come into about $10,000 in cash.  A valuable lesson here, control very tightly knowledge about your finances while in Ukraine, this information may flow to the wrong people.

The other two incidents involved women who came home and unlocked the door and didn't re-lock it. Those crafty burglars came in while the victims was occupied elsewhere in their apartment.  It's likely someone was outside watching through the windows, waited for them to be in the back and signaled their "druzya".

The bottom line, a sense of constant alertness and vigilance is the best way to armor yourself.

[Misha]

The robbers knew he had just come into about $10,000 in cash. 

This is how it often works in Russia. Man sells car (or whatever else of value). Man who bought car has friends who follow man who sold car. If the man who sold car goes home, the friends of the buyer then rob him and take money and whatever else they can steal. The man who sold car, of course, cannot get the car back, because who is going to prove that the new owner set up the theft. 

[Makkin]

Poker,

  okay since we "now" agree that it's academic as far as the doors go then maybe we have no need to continue on that aspect?

  If you want to live in a bunker it's kool and if you want to live in the open it's also Kool. Problem is to what degree you feel safe in your surroundings ya?

Makkin

[Kuna]

In an attempt to bring this thread back on topic....  some might be interested in this new report which states reported crime has fallen by  8% in 2008 compared to 2007.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http://new-most.info/

I know this doesn't differentiate violent crime...  but it's right there in print. Crime is down... Believe it or not!

[kievstar]

In past 2 weeks in Belgium the following happened - 3 masked gun men came into the restaurant of the hotel  I stay at and robbed 20 people of everything they had on a Saturday night and pistol whipped 2 women (I was at work still).  Than couple day agos a man went into a dayare center and killed 3 children under the age of 3 and wounded 11 more.  Belgium has more than 100 murders in the month of January alone. Ukraine is very safe.  Western Europe and USA are more dangerous.  Ukraine has tough prisons.  Something USA needs. 

[Vinnvinny]

In my experience you are SIGNIFICANTLY more safe walking around city centres late at night in all the cities I have visited in Ukraine than you are in almost any urbanised area in England, and 95% of the reason for is alcohol related.

[krimster]

"Death has a thousand doors to let out life"

Safety? In Ukraine? Your inquiry provokes my amusement.  Are cars safe?  Airplanes?  If you ask the wrong question, the answer is simply irrelevant.

The real question should be, "are you safe in Ukraine".  This question has more to do with your condition than of Ukraine's.

You may not realize it but your "coping skills" are highly dependent on your native environment.  Taken out of your environment and thrust into another one, those skills may be irrelevant. 

A better and more to the point question would be, "is it safe to use the toilettes in Ukraine"?  This points directly to the coping skills issue.  Now back home using a public restroom is likely to be a perfunctory affair and not worthy of any special notice.  Ukraine is another matter.  Imagine the surprise dear readers when entering the Simferopol airport and desiring to use the local restroom.  First, there is a line to pay 50 kopec to a stony faced middle-aged woman, who with a great florish whips off a length of sand-paper from elbow to wrist and hands it to you.  Then you may approach the toilette which may or may not have a door.  When you glimpse the toilette itself, your travel weary brain objects in a fashion similar to the children's game of "what's wrong with this picture"?
Unbelievably,  you realize there is NO TOILETTE THERE.  Your mind begins to race, what happened to it?  Where did it go?  What do I do now!  As you calm down, you can be more analytical and appraise the situation.  You realize that nothing at all happened to the toilette, it was DESIGNED THIS WAY!  Yes, dear reader, a simple round hole in the floor, in front of which is the comical outline of two feet, set apart at the approved angle and distance.  Hmmm, what to do?  Perhaps if you moved back in line a bit you could catch a few pointers from some of the other patrons if they chose one of the stalls with the missing doors, but on second thought, you intentions might be misunderstood.  So there is no alternative but to "sally forth" into the fray.  So, you pick a stall with a door, but the door won't close, so it requires some contact pressure from you to close it, as you do so, some unknown (but easily guessed) substance rubs off the door onto your shirt.  Now, unbuckle and unzip, and lower your pants and undergarments, not too low, as you realize the accuracy of the previous patrons needed a lot to be desired, haha, you say to yourself with amusement, the fellow before me had corn for dinner last night.  At first, you try hard to avoid the more obvious "piles" that surround the hole in the floor, but you realize with revulsion, that you can't, it's everywhere, just in varying degrees of thickness on the floor.  So, positioning yourself on the thinnest layers, you need to crouch over, but how low?  You need to remember that you can't go too low, as your clothes may end up touching what is smeared all over the floor, too high, and you may have a "trajectory issue".   Once you resolve that, you are now ready to proceed with your "mission".  Some may find the stress or awkwardness of the situation to produce a feeling of reticence as far as the "mission" is concerned.  This is understandable considering that you are hunched over large piles of smeared urine soaked excrement with one hand wrapped in toilette tissue holding the door and the other hand straining hard to hold your pants off the floor, all the while attempting not to soil your own clothes in the process.

Now, after reading the above, you may now ask yourself, "are you safe in Ukraine"?