Ukraine-- Is it safe...

[Makkin]

  Uh huh....reminds me of the time I did that in the corps but at least I had enough toilet paper and I dug a nice hole.

Makkin

[Sculpto]

LMFAO @ Krimster's post.  Well done!!!

That said.. safety is always relative.  Most of you would not feel safe where I live in SF.  Yet, I feel absolutely no threat.  I am always aware of what is going on and I can spot trouble two blocks away and avoid it if anything is going down. 

In some respects there are greater risks in the FSU, and from what I am hearing from some Ukrainian friends, things are a bit crazy in some places right now.  However...

Walking down the street is riskier than in most parts of the USA because of the design of curbs, steps and sidewalks.  Drivers have NO respect for pedestrians.. cross at your own peril.  Busses, trollys and subways are overcrowded and often in poor states of repair.  Supposedly mushrooms in some parts of Ukraine, and I suppose southern Russia, are still at risk of radioactive contamination.  Cleanliness of other foods may be an issue also.  In the stores there seem to be a lot of products packaged in China so who knows how much melamine contaminant is included.  There are 60-70,000 skin heads in Russia, no idea how many in Ukraine, that seem to enjoy attacking foreign people and posting their deeds on web sites.  Elevators are another question.  Gas heaters are a real challenge.  In an apartment i stayed in I caused three small gas explosions before I figured out how to properly get the hot water heater going.  Supposedly the police sometimes shake down foreigners for bribes. 

so, there are risks assoicated with going to the FSU.  But, I personally feel a lot safer there than I would in certain parts of Oakland and numerous other parts of major US cities.  Shoot, I feel safer in Ukraine than I would knocking on Ronnie's door unannounced. 

[OlgaH]

  Now, unbuckle and unzip, and lower your pants and undergarments, not too low...

http://flickr.com/photos/marktristan/1019348408/

[kryten41]

Krimster's description is exactly what went through my mind when I first encountered one of these at the SIP airport, causing me to recall longingly the  luxurious toilet in the airplane.  Definitely not a safe place to get "the trots".

[Daveman]

The outbound toilet is quite modern (the one to the left as you enter the waiting area for your departing flight).  I guess they just want to freak the daylights out of incoming tourists. 

Hilarious write up, Krimster... really.

[ScottinCrimea]

Krimster's account reminds me of one that was written here a few years ago, though in more detail.  Perhaps someone remembers and can find this.

It seems yoiu guys are never happy.  You have the endless battles with your wives over not putting the toilet lid down, Ukraine finds an answer to the problem, and still you gripe!  And the old babushkas handing out cardboard toilet paper at the door are much more generous than the viejas in Mexico who limit you to two squares, partially used.

My biggest fear using said toilets is not so much what I will step/ fall into, but that my wallet, or, God forbid, my passport, should slip out and prove to have better aim than I do.  I have one friend this happened to in Japan.

[kryten41]

I took a lesson from bikers, and keep my wallet (with my passport enclosed)attached to a lanyard looped around my belt.  I did this to make it harder for pickpockets, but I can see that it could come in handy keeping money/passport out of the hole. 

[Kuna]

Perhaps someone remembers and can find this.

This one Scott???

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3607.msg65931;topicseen#msg65931

[steveh1155]

Unbelievably,  you realize there is NO TOILETTE THERE.  Your mind begins to race, what happened to it?  Where did it go?  What do I do now!  As you calm down, you can be more analytical and appraise the situation.  You realize that nothing at all happened to the toilette, it was DESIGNED THIS WAY!  Yes, dear reader, a simple round hole in the floor, in front of which is the comical outline of two feet, set apart at the approved angle and distance. 

  This is too funny - In Kiev, the only place I encountered "the hole" was at a living history museum on the outskirts of the city - I had almost the exact same thought processes when I opened the men's room door & eyed the "accommodations" - it didn't have any foot placement instructions, so I had to guess the proper distance & angle, oh and I found out later - you don't put paper down the hole, it goes in the wire basket at the side (too late!)

[ScottinCrimea]

This one Scott???

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3607.msg65931;topicseen#msg65931

Yeah, Kuna, that's the one.

I'm curious in how many other countries people have found similar "accomodations".

[BC]

Yeah, Kuna, that's the one.

I'm curious in how many other countries people have found similar "accomodations".

Pretty popular for public toilets in France.. Fairly popular at campgrounds and other roadside toilet facilities throughout Europe.

Actually more hygienic than seat type toilets and positioning is the same required as a boy scout in the forest.

[Kuna]

Yeah, Kuna, that's the one.

I'm curious in how many other countries people have found similar "accomodations".

China - often
Philippines - often
Hong Kong - in the "old days"
Singapore - A LONG time ago

I don't remember squat pans anywhere else... but there are filthy toilets all over the world! 

[Wienerin]

Makkin I have no doubt that Krimster and Scott have far more knowledge than me about the Ukraine and Russia or any other FSU country, after all I've only been there on a tour and stayed in hotels so my knowledge of apartments in these cities is zero.  My posts were purely about the effectiveness of an AK-47 and its ammunition and the type of damage multiple rounds could do on a door, specifically a 6mm steel plate door.  Most people are under the impression that there is safety behind a steel door.  This is definitely a mistake when it comes to protection from firearms and a fatal mistake if the firearm is an assault rifle capable of firing rounds at supersonic speed. 

Since an attempted burglary or other mayhem with assault weapon on a private residence (other when the Spetsnaz in involved) isa\ a very remote possibility, obviously, the double steel doors, door frames, complicated locking systems are designed and installed to prevent a break-in. These are, sorry to say, still a major concern for private citizens and for small businesses too. Penetrability or otherwise by a high-velocity bullet notwithstanding.

[Simoni]

I'm curious in how many other countries people have found similar "accommodations."

Same type as Krimster described in many parts of China, where they are horrible.  The only good thing is winter-- the smell is not as bad!

[Wienerin]

In my experience you are SIGNIFICANTLY more safe walking around city centres late at night in all the cities I have visited in Ukraine than you are in almost any urbanised area in England, and 95% of the reason for is alcohol related.

Either your were incredibly lucky

walking around city centres late at night

in Ukraine, or I were - walking around London, York, Liverpool, Oxford, Cambridge, etc. I think that my opinion is weightier for Russia/Ukraine, though - and yours is for England...

But that is just what I was trying to say earlier - do not rely on your knowledge and street smarts acquired on your native soil. The rules of the game are different, rely on the natives you trust - with the correction made for their pride in their native place and trying to present only the bright side - which I've seen a lot even when talking with other RW/UW.

Which is understandable, of course, - in your own city you know the dark side and try to avoid it while the bright spots - landmarks, culture and entertainment, positive life experiences - friends, family, love, etc. stand to the forefront. And yes, people from Russia/Ukraine are ... I wanted to say more fiercely patriotic, but it wouldn't be an exact representation. Maybe more vulnerable and more defensive of anything perceived as a criticism.

Say, I could talk with a resident of Dusseldorf or Paris or London about some ugliness or unpleasant experience of their cities and they would either agree (and sometimes match my story with another "bad news" of their own) or politely disagree - pointing to me as a newcomer where I did go wrong in my perception or approach. They are secure and so more tolerant of the criticism.

While if I mention - even to a compatriot, and even from my own city (which I love to death, my St.Petersburg, which is in my blood and marrow, which has my foot- and hand print on every stone and which still remembers me ), that this or that was bad, wrong, dangerous, unpleasant or whatever other then glowingly positive, - they would be in arms uimmediately, decrying my bad attitude, lack of patriotism, etc.

So listen to your friends there, - but with a hefty pinch of salt... and avoid policemen and groups of teenagers and young men as plague 

[Wienerin]

The outbound toilet is quite modern (the one to the left as you enter the waiting area for your departing flight).  I guess they just want to freak the daylights out of incoming tourists. 

Hilarious write up, Krimster... really.

(grimly) yeah, hilarious. When you're traveling in FSU - and even walking (and with a child, too) around, say, St.Petersburg, it can become a big Ha-Ha, indeed... The description by Krimster is even somewhat mild as compared to the general picture. How would you like a toilet with two rows of stalls facing each other - without doors at all? In a major train station? Not "some missing doors" - but none intended, and the walls between the stalls are only shoulder high - when one is squatting?

How about a toilet - one stall - in a big, central and popular pub in St.Petersburg - where there's no door between the lavatory and the toilet proper, and the latch on the door is broken (by force, obviously, since there is a big jagged hole where the latch used to be)?

How about men's toilets, where you are afraid (with reason - other than the dirt, etc) to let your kig go by himself?

And so on, and so forth, and forever... and I haven't even started on the toilets in lesser cities rail stations - like in Simferopol...

Or, and another thing, wherever you are in Russia/Ukraine, it's a very good practice to use a toilet when one is available - not when you direly need one. Because they are few and far between - AND you have to know your toilet geography by heart. AND the one you know of may be closed - mostly "For cleaning", but there could be other reasons or now reason at all stated.

[Daveman]

(grimly) yeah, hilarious. When you're traveling in FSU - and even walking (and with a child, too) around, say, St.Petersburg, it can become a big Ha-Ha, indeed... The description by Krimster is even somewhat mild as compared to the general picture. How would you like a toilet with two rows of stalls facing each other - without doors at all? In a major train station? Not "some missing doors" - but none intended, and the walls between the stalls are only shoulder high - when one is squatting?

How about a toilet - one stall - in a big, central and popular pub in St.Petersburg - where there's no door between the lavatory and the toilet proper, and the latch on the door is broken (by force, obviously, since there is a big jagged hole where the latch used to be)?

How about men's toilets, where you are afraid (with reason - other than the dirt, etc) to let your kig go by himself?

And so on, and so forth, and forever... and I haven't even started on the toilets in lesser cities rail stations - like in Simferopol...

Or, and another thing, wherever you are in Russia/Ukraine, it's a very good practice to use a toilet when one is available - not when you direly need one. Because they are few and far between - AND you have to know your toilet geography by heart. AND the one you know of may be closed - mostly "For cleaning", but there could be other reasons or now reason at all stated.

Well, it is what it is.  When in Rome, pee like the Romans....  The toilets at Gagorian (sp?) park are atrocious.  The ones at the Simferopol rail station are only slightly better.   I've peed my way from Odessa to Kharkov, and Kiev to Yalta... the picture is similar.   I found Krimster's prose to be quite humorous in an "I can relate" kind of way.

Yes, there are many things I wish were different in Russia and Ukraine, the body relief aspect being merely one of them.  But, I've said it before and I'll say it again... we choose to go there to find a special woman; the woman is bred and grown in this environment, so it is much more beneficial to learn to deal with the situation as it is because I doubt very seriously that it's going to change any time soon.  It is what it is.

Dave

[Vinnvinny]

So listen to your friends there, - but with a hefty pinch of salt... and avoid policemen and groups of teenagers and young men as plague 

I have read similar things many times but I simply don’t have such experiences myself in Ukraine. For example, I was in Dnep one Saturday last autumn. Earlier in the evening there had been some sort of festival with a beauty contest, live bands etc. At around 2 am I walked across the city centre which was full of young people, predominately men most of whom were drinking. No drunkenness, no boisterous behaviour, no signs of hooliganism etc, etc. I felt very safe. In England on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturday nights at 2am in the morning the situation is usually substantially different.

With regards to the Police then I have only been stopped twice, both times in Kiev in the early hours of the morning. The first time they helped me in to my apartment building as I was having problems opening the entrance gate and the second time it was just a quick check of my passport. I think some of you guys must look like victims in waiting. 

I reiterate. If you exercise a little bit of common sense then Ukraine is VERY safe for foreigners.

[groovlstk]

So listen to your friends there, - but with a hefty pinch of salt... and avoid policemen and groups of teenagers and young men as plague 

Wienerin, thanks for adding some common sense here. I'm always amused at the lengths some guys will go to rationalize arguments about relative personal safety in the West vs. Ukraine/Russia. Most of the nasty crimes that make headlines there are never reported in Western media. Last year, I remember there was a serial killer in Dnepr that had the city gripped in fear. I never saw a single word about it in the Western press, the only reason I know about it is from our relatives. I believe the killers were caught, they were a group of young people, but they killed 20 or so people. Had that happened in the US it would have been reported all over the world, there would be yards of editorial hand-wringing about how our society breeds violence, condemnations disguised as sympathy would come from the foreign press, etc.

I've long thought that many travelers "felt" safe there while walking around Ukraine or Russia because the population is overwhelmingly caucasian.  The triggers they're accustomed to watching for as signs of potential trouble - minority teens, young men wearing gang clothing, jittery meth addicts, etc., simply don't exist - trouble is there all right, it just looks a little different

[ScottinCrimea]

I really think many exaggerate the dangers of Ukraine.  As one who actually lived there, I was familiar with what and where to avoid, just like I am here in the US.  We lived in the city center and they regularly had concerts and other festivals just down the street from us in Lenin square.  The police would stand around the perimeter and try to prevent people from bringing liquor into the square but it was very easy to stand just across the street and drink to your heart's content.  Still, I never saw any incidents of hooliganism or out of control behavior.  I saw a mix of young people old people and families enjoying the event with no apparent concern for their well being.  I have walked the streets of Simferopol alone late at night many times, even passing the crowds of young people congregating outside the nightclubs without feeling any sense of a threat.  I worried more about the taxi drivers who wre more prone to accost me.

[OlgaH]

I don't remember squat pans anywhere else...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilets_in_Japan#Squat_toilet

[Misha]

Most of the nasty crimes that make headlines there are never reported in Western media.

Many nasty crimes are not widely reported in FSU media either. Take the case of the mass murder of women in Nizhny Tagil. A gang was convicted of murdering 15 women and they also abducted dozens more and forced them into prostitution, beating them into submission and sexual slavery. There were some reports, but it was not covered extensively. The Exiled had a good report on happened, but sadly this file disappeared as they moved to the exiledonlne.

[Misha]

jittery meth addicts, etc., simply don't exist - trouble is there all right, it just looks a little different

Pretty much. Though, my wife has some stories to share about the time she came close to being attacked by heroin addicts on the central square of her city. With regards to foreigners evaluating the relative safety of the FSU, the old expression "ignorance is bliss" comes to mind.

[Simoni]

Last year, I remember there was a serial killer in Dnepr that had the city gripped in fear. I never saw a single word about it in the Western press...

Yeah, it did happen.  I was there and wrote about it in my trip report...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5290.msg97157#msg97157

We survived :-)

[dobradavid]

Have you been there recently?

Because of the economy situation do you feel comfortable to travel to Ukraine as you did before??

Yes.