RM as Marriage Partners?

[GoodOlBoy]

PPS. A true Christian doesn't drink? Does that include Christ and his Apostles? 

Oh Sir, please don't turn this into a religious debate!   

[Jooky]

Oh Sir, please don't turn this into a religious debate!

That wasn't my intention. It was rhetorical. The intention is to show a flawed sense of reason, along the lines of a 'good' man lives in a big apartment and has a Master's degree.

Can you answer any of the questions I've posed?

Do you fit the criteria of a 'good' man? 

I'll bet you don't, but you probably are a decent guy, and if you were a Russian I'd be backing you up just as I'm backing up the decent Russian guys I know right now.

[Sculpto]

   I was only in Siberia for a couple of month's and I heard PLENTY of derogatory comments about Jews.

BTW.... In the RW/UW community here in N. Miami, I also hear plenty about this topic.

I am really biting my tongue..

[GoodOlBoy]

Sure, everyone has their own criteria and the vast majority find it back home. That's a fact.

Sir, I would STRONGLY have to disagree with your assumption.

IMHO, IF the the borders of Europe, UK, Australia, Canada and USA were open to Russian Women (only).

I think you would see the largest mass exodus in the history of mankind.

It would eclipse any immigration wave from Mexico or Cuba we have ever seen here in the USA.

And I might add, that the quality (education, profession, etc.) of the RW entering these countries would be unimaginable to the common man.

On a personal note, until I stayed in Russia, I never realized there could be so many talented and educated women in one society.

[BC]

Sir, I would STRONGLY have to disagree with your assumption.

IMHO, IF the the borders of Europe, UK, Australia, Canada and USA were open to Russian Women (only).

I think you would see the largest mass exodus in the history of mankind.

It would eclipse any immigration wave from Mexico or Cuba we have ever seen here in the USA.

Strongly disagree.

EU borders are quite open to women from FSU.  Visitor visas are no big deal, and at least here in IT one can marry on a visitor visa.  Immigration processes for married couples are quite expedient (took us 3 weeks or so).

I see a lot of FSU women around, but FSU is far from empty.

I am posting this considering that the topic will be split off from Pike's TR.

p.s.  The vast majority of FSUW do not want to leave their county.. my wife is a prime example.. it took a LOT of convincing.  OTOH the majority of Italian men, or those residing here marry Italian women.  There are still quite a few beautiful women here that can play the role of 'mamma' quite well.

[AnastassiaAsh]

The intention is to show a flawed sense of reason, along the lines of a 'good' man lives in a big apartment and has a Master's degree.

Jooky, you are picking several words out of the context and putting them together in your special mix and voila! something i have never said. You just have nothing else to argue about.  Yes, my standards are very high. Yes, relatively few even in the whole US can match my list. There are some, but they are not in thousands and even not in hundreds but rather in tens, and then I have to match their perception and we are looking at just several men here and there that i corresponded with. I forsaw Christian drinking remark too, do you think I am out of my mind or stupid or something. I am talking about ALCOHOL ABUSE that most RM are suffering from.

[GoodOlBoy]

Strongly disagree.

EU borders are quite open to women from FSU.  Visitor visas are no big deal, and at least here in IT one can marry on a visitor visa.  Immigration processes for married couples are quite expedient (took us 3 weeks or so).

I see a lot of FSU women around, but FSU is far from empty.

I am posting this considering that the topic will be split off from Pike's TR.

Sir, when I say OPEN borders. I mean get on a plane or train and get the hell out of dodge.

No Schengen Visa, Transit Visa, NO Visa period.


I repeat my previous statement : I think you would see the largest mass exodus of RW in the history of mankind.


I can speak from personal experience about Italy. Several years ago my wife (then fiancee) tried to get a Visa to Italy. The bar was set pretty high at that time. I don't know about now.

BTW....We met in Prague, Czech Republic instead.

[Sculpto]

I am talking about ALCOHOL ABUSE that most RM are suffering from.

Anastasia.. do you realize that the things you are saying do nothing but reinforce the negative impression that too many WM have about RM?  That impression for me at least came from the BS on agency sites.  But, the reality I experienced on now three trips, two to Ukraine and one to Russia, do not correspond with what you are saying.  I understand my experience is really limited, but, I did not see the level of abuse that you are talking about.  The men that are friends with my GF all have careers and are not drunks..

[kievstar]

Would not just be RW - RM would leave too.  Jobs are becoming more scarce and the hope people had of Ukraine and Russia being strong countries are disappearing.  Italy is a nice tourist country or place to have a vacation house but has never been high on the list immigrants desire to go and live in.

[BC]

Sir, when I say OPEN borders. I mean get on a plane or train and get the hell out of dodge.

No Schengen Visa, Transit Visa, NO Visa period.

I can speak from personal experience about Italy. Several years ago my wife (then fiancee) tried to get a Visa to Italy. The bar was set pretty high at that time. I don't know about know.

BTW....We met in Prague, Czech Republic instead.

May I mention Egypt, DR, Turkey, and a few more where a few bucks at the most will do?  Is ten dollars too much?

Here in IT, evidence that you have 350 bucks available for a 5 day visit will usually suffice.  Yeah might take a tour operator to do the visa without having to go yourself the first time. Lets call it 2K usd total.. It's all paperwork, little else.

When it comes to 'hassles'.. have to weigh 'will' against it..

Don't take much 'will' imho.. thus my comments above.

[Jooky]

do you think I am out of my mind or stupid or something

No, I think you greatly exaggerate. If the things you say were true, my experiences in Russia would be impossible. So either I've been dreaming them up, or what you say is not true.

Good Old Boy, the vast majority of Russian women stay in Russia and marry Russian men. That's a fact. There's no point to your fantasies and the borders are not quite as tight as you imagine. If they were I wouldn't have a continual flow of Russian women visiting me here in the US, including 4 this past year. Possibly I'm dreaming that up too.  

In your opinion is Russia a country full of talented, educated and family oriented women, but the men are uneducated, alcoholic boors with no family values? How could that possibly happen?

Any chance you can answer my questions? Or do I already know the answers?

I'm also assuming this will all be removed to another thread soon...

[GoodOlBoy]

IMHO, IF the the borders of Europe, UK, Australia, Canada and USA were open to Russian Women (only).

Kievstar, not RM.

Why let RM leave?

After all, RM made this mess in Russia, not the women.

[GoodOlBoy]

May I mention Egypt, DR, Turkey,

Yes, these are also some great "garden spots" of the world that treat women like cr*p.

[AnastassiaAsh]

In your opinion is Russia a country full of talented, educated and family oriented women, but the men are uneducated, alcoholic boors with no family values? How could that possibly happen?

Pretty close.     There are more women than men, and men are very spoilt....

[BC]

Anastasia.. do you realize that the things you are saying do nothing but reinforce the negative impression that too many WM have about RM?  That impression for me at least came from the BS on agency sites.  But, the reality I experienced on now three trips, two to Ukraine and one to Russia, do not correspond with what you are saying.  I understand my experience is really limited, but, I did not see the level of abuse that you are talking about.  The men that are friends with my GF all have careers and are not drunks..

Sculpto,

The criteria Anastasia mentioned are very strict:

In my mind, no matter how good a person is character-wise or in any other way good and virtuous, but who drinks or smokes, he is not a good man, not a true Christian, far from it. This is how I look at it. Because it matters to me, and I am sure to the majority of women. (drinking one goblet of shampaign or some wine twice a year is fine)

There is nothing wrong with that.

I would not 'fit the bill' though.. - and that's quite ok too.

Don't worry about what AM may think.. they will believe what they want to believe and nothing will change that in short order.

[Misha]

I understand my experience is really limited, but, I did not see the level of abuse that you are talking about.  The men that are friends with my GF all have careers and are not drunks..

Well, there is a reason why the average life expectancy of the Russian male is less than 60 years: smoking and alcohol are certainly two of the leading factors in Russian men dying at a much younger age than the average European and North American. The official consumption stats are high, but even these only factor in a small proportion of the alcohol that is actually consumed: samagon (Russian moonshine), "spirit" (pure ethanol destined for hospital or other uses) and cologne (such as Troynoy) are also drunk in large quantities and not factored into the official alcohol consumption rates.  

[BC]

Yes, these are also some great "garden spots" of the world that treat women like cr*p.

I have spent a lot of time in one of these countries, lets say a couple of years..

As good a folk as you will find anywhere.. maybe even better.

Your thoughts are tainted.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, there is a reason why the average life expectancy of the Russian male is less than 60 years: smoking and alcohol are certainly two of the leading factors in Russian men dying at a much younger age than the average European and North American. The official consumption stats are high, but even these only factor in a small proportion of the alcohol that is actually consumed: samagon (Russian moonshine), "spirit" (pure ethanol destined for hospital or other uses) and cologne (such as Troynoy) are also drunk in large quantities and not factored into the official alcohol consumption rates.  

Misha, you are totally spot on! 

[Sculpto]

GOB.. I am pretty sure Russians are a lot more patriotic than you think. 

[Diplomacy]

Anastasia-

First is it possible your mind that men can raise children?  How does one find their way in the mind field of becoming an equal with a man, if the culture that you come from that is not often the case?  What are your opinions as to the role of a father in American terms versus the FSU mentality?

[siberia]

All I wanted to say that so many Russian men couldn't even start fitting my list because ALL, absolutely ALL who i met drank, smoked or both. And if not then they were not Christians...or something else that is very important to me lacked.
 
And I think that ALL, or 99,99999% of Russian Men are bad simply because they drink and smoke to the oblivion, unhealthy and I can go further....not because some of them are not educated or something else....let's start with simple things and most rampant in Russia

i feel so sad that you think this way Anastassia, I can feel that a Russian man must have hurt you very much for you to feel this strong against Russian men. The fact is, that not all Russian men are like this and you know that, but you can't say that, because you feel the need to justify your marriage to 2 AM. You can marry whomever you want, and you do not need to justify it to anyone, not even yourself. Exaggerating does not make it so.

As Jooky said, the majority of RW marry RM, not foreigners. Agencies need to perpetuate the myth of horrible RM for the WM to rationalize why FSUW want to marry them.

I am married for 10 years to a Russian man who does not smoke, drinks only socially, has a Master's degree, is tall, 200 cm to be exact, and is kind and helpful and true to me.
Sorry you could not find one of those Anastassia, but of course mine is also not a Christian although he lives his life by the Golden Rule and is more honest and kind than many people I know how attend church.

[Ade]

i feel so sad that you think this way Anastassia, I can feel that a Russian man must have hurt you very much for you to feel this strong against Russian men. The fact is, that not all Russian men are like this and you know that, but you can't say that, because you feel the need to justify your marriage to 2 AM. You can marry whomever you want, and you do not need to justify it to anyone, not even yourself. Exaggerating does not make it so.

As Jooky said, the majority of RW marry RM, not foreigners. Agencies need to perpetuate the myth of horrible RM for the WM to rationalize why FSUW want to marry them.

I am married for 10 years to a Russian man who does not smoke, drinks only socially, has a Master's degree, is tall, 200 cm to be exact, and is kind and helpful and true to me.
Sorry you could not find one of those Anastassia, but of course mine is also not a Christian although he lives his life by the Golden Rule and is more honest and kind than many people I know how attend church.

I think I and others can fully understand that she had very specific and demanding criteria for a partner that would have been extremely difficult to satisfy anywhere; what most of us have issues with though is the fact that she labels all those that do not match her criteria as "bad" which, quite frankly, is bizarre to say the least.

Of course, I've met other religious people before that consider any non-religious people as essentially "bad" by definition.

There's no doubt that statistically the rate of alcohol abuse in the FSU is very high and contributes to the low average life expectancy; this of course does not mean that every FSU man abuses alcohol nor does it mean that every man there makes for a bad husband.

I think we have with Anastasia and GoodOlBoy a case of skewed perceptions derived from bad luck, misinformation and weird world views reinforced with a large unhealthy dose of confirmation bias.

[Shadow]

After all, RM made this mess in Russia, not the women.

Behind every man there is a woman doing...

[Zmejka]

Anastasia.. do you realize that the things you are saying do nothing but reinforce the negative impression that too many WM have about RM? 
The men that are friends with my GF all have careers and are not drunks..

Agree. I also lived in Russia for whole my life - not in Moscow, ok but in Kazan, a big (more than 1 million people) city and for the last 8 years my brother lives in Moscow - so i can count his experience too. In our family, in the families of our relatives men don't drink (occasionally, and surely they're not alcoholics)? oh yeah, some of them smoke - that's the only "bad" criteria that i can mention about them (and they're not Christian but that doesn't make them bad husbands or fathers ). All families live long in the marriage - more than 20 years, and new generation - like my brother and his friends (now 30 and up) - live now from 5 to 8 years in the marriage and not going to cheat or divorce or somehow abuse their wifes, they have good jobs (i don't know if they have "great jobs" - from what income start that jobs? :evil:) and they even don't think moving abroad - yes because there they will have it worse than in Russia. I don't say that there're men only like that in Russia - but portraying almost ALL men like "bad" -it's too much

Anastassia if you simply say you have high criteria and couldn't find this back home, I have no problem with that. To label all Russian men as bad and say the situation is beyond impossible when I or anyone can go to Russia for a few weeks and meet good guys (not alcoholic, chain smoking or living in poverty either) shows a cynical and jaded attitude in common with the type of women most men here try to avoid back home.

Totally agree. It's interesting in how different worlds people can live (even people from the same city)

So, let's start with the real top man in Russia (Putin). He is a 56 year old former KGB monster. He disrespects his wife and marriage. Openly, runs around Moscow day and night with a 25-year-old former Olympic gymnast named Alina Kabayeva.

If you didn't read anything further - too pity, like for example the newpaper that wrote about "future wedding" of Putin and Kabaeva was closed - or that Kabaeva threatened to go to the court considereing these "facts"... by the way Putin himself told that it's BS on tv, only can't find the link now

[Diplomacy]

Some of the whole discussion comes from 2 very distinct versions of normal also.  From an American perspective, if we look at the way our grandparents lived then you could see more of a similarity.  

The woman as an equal is really only a few decades in the making here.  The family unit was designed as single income.  The wife often did all the cooking, cleaning, and responsible for the children at the same time.

As the quest for more material things has become an addiction in our society.  I am not even sure we have implemented the true potential of women equality.  T

Now there I see a better argument here. A difference in role and responsibility that would influence a woman choosing a WM over a RM. If the woman was not happy with the role assumed in many FSU homes.

Too much of most things is not good for you.  Substance abuse is rampant in FSU culture.  I also believe that many times your impression on a matter is driven by experience.  You will seek people that are similar to you.  So if you are then talking with people that all had a similar experience with RM, then it is easy to then believe that it is true for all women.