Higher Education and the Views of FSU on Degrees obtained

[Diplomacy]

I have noticed a common theme as far as the Advanced Degrees that many of the women discussed on the forums have.  I can not help but to open this can of worms and solicit what the reality of the FSU Higher Education System is in this day and age.

I have found one dangerous mindset for sure and that is a lack of tolerance and global acceptance. While one may be very well versed in a very specific area, the breadth of many disciplines does not seem to appear often.  While one can spit back facts fast, applying that to problem solving is another story.

Is the degree giving a perceived notion of intellectual superiority or not?  I have been out of University over a decade now.  Other than supporting the athletics, I just do not discuss my degrees or think about who went where and studied what anymore in my career.

At some point it is a matter of your work speaking for itself and has no bearing on who went where and for how long.  Is the degree the pinnacle or just the start of what you are going to achieve? 

[Jazzyclassy]

Education is still very good in Russia it's just depends on each person, what do they want from their studies just a diploma or knowledge , in here i noticed that education does not matter at all which is bad and good thing at the same time, cos people without education can work  in any field they like to and enjoy their work and actually be successfull and having a degree sometimes makes it difficult to go and search for work somewhere where you would not even consider as you have an education and all that sort of pride

[Misha]

Is the degree the pinnacle or just the start of what you are going to achieve? 

This is my wife's experience. She graduated in Russia with a degree in graphic design. However, at no point did she even learn how to use graphic design software while studying. She had to spend several years getting the skills she needed to work in her profession (graphic design). In her case, it was clearly just the start of what she wanted to achieve.

[Wienerin]

I have noticed a common theme as far as the Advanced Degrees that many of the women discussed on the forums have.  I can not help but to open this can of worms and solicit what the reality of the FSU Higher Education System is in this day and age.

I have found one dangerous mindset for sure and that is a lack of tolerance and global acceptance. While one may be very well versed in a very specific area, the breadth of many disciplines does not seem to appear often.  While one can spit back facts fast, applying that to problem solving is another story.

Is the degree giving a perceived notion of intellectual superiority or not?  I have been out of University over a decade now.  Other than supporting the athletics, I just do not discuss my degrees or think about who went where and studied what anymore in my career.

At some point it is a matter of your work speaking for itself and has no bearing on who went where and for how long.  Is the degree the pinnacle or just the start of what you are going to achieve? 

It's not so much a can of worms as there's no basis for discussion.
From what you've written you do not know enough about the higher education in FSU or the academia to have an informed opinion or grounds for comparison.

Generally it's agreed - with the people who CAN compare, - that Soviet and most of post-Soviet universities provided a broader education with more subjects, but lacking in the depth or practical application as opposite to the US.

As to boasting of a college|university diploma - it's simply ridiculous. Fit for a person who has nothing else to boast of or who is the first memeber of her family to be so blessed, or I don't know what 9AND YES, i've noticed this in my compatriots. Always funny to observe )

As to analytical ability, the skill of gathering facts and observation and making decisions, forming opinions, etc. - this is very individual and though one can be trained to use certain tools and skills, the same as one can be trained as an actor or a journalist, - if there's absent a certain inherent something, it won't be a professional but a hack.

[Faux Pas]

This is my wife's experience. She graduated in Russia with a degree in graphic design. However, at no point did she even learn how to use graphic design software while studying. She had to spend several years getting the skills she needed to work in her profession (graphic design). In her case, it was clearly just the start of what she wanted to achieve.

Just curious but do you know how they can get a graphic design degree without using any graphic design software? I ask because graphic design is a very important ingredient in my profession and I have many graphics people in my employ. Many had no experience whatsoever when they began and were trained onsite. But they all had some sort of applicable software experience. In-design, Quark, Photoshop ect.

[Misha]

Just curious but do you know how they can get a graphic design degree without using any graphic design software?

That's Russia  :evil: All the work was done by hand and much of her courses were in basic art and design (painting, drawing, etc...). She would design ads on paper with charcoal or crayon. It took a number of years for her to gain the expertise she needed in working with a few software programs (CorelDraw and PhotoShop).

[groovlstk]

That's Russia  :evil: All the work was done by hand and much of her courses were in basic art and design (painting, drawing, etc...).

Same with my wife, who has a degree in Interior Design. All her class work was done by hand, she learned AutoCad and some of the other design software via OJT (on the job training). This has worked out in her favor, as several employers in the US told her that most of the new graduates can't do anything by hand as they've used computers exclusively throughout school.

[OlgaH]

Is the degree the pinnacle or just the start of what you are going to achieve? 

Diplomacy,

as Jazzyclassy said and I agree with her that it depends on a person. For me to obtain a higher education meant first of all the knowledge in my specialty and of course a better chance to get a better job and make my carrier.

I had a neighbor who  had a Red Diploma (honors degree) in economics and management, but he still works as a security officer at the factory. When he was looking for a job, he wanted only a high position, but more smarter bosses first off all would like to see what he could do as  a "simple" employee in spite of his honors degree     

 I also agree with Jazzyclassy that Education is still very good in Russia.

For example Tomsk State University in Siberia
http://www.tsu.ru/WebDesign/TSU/coreen.nsf/structurl/international_doc1

Manny Russian professors with Soviet Education works in American Universities

I have attached the article "MERITS AND DEMERITS OF WESTERN EDUCATION" by Dr. Valery N. Soyfer
About him
http://www.jbsdonline.com/full_text_PDFs/L746Utu8V283YK45sNxRi3qOQmA.pdf

Here I'd like to share with my readers the impression I received from seven years of lecturing in American universities and from discussions held by thinking American professors concerned with the situation. It is beyond doubt that Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley and about two dozen other universities attract well-prepared candidates from all over the world and, after a strenuous selection, admit only the best of them. However, even professors of these universities speak of an evident fall in the level of training of first-year students, which has to be still more noticeable in the other two thousand universities. The best professors and leaders of science and education in America are apprehensive of a general decline in the educational level of young Americans, especially young university students, as well as a nearly complete ignorance of social sciences and humanities among those who study the natural, physical etc. and applied sciences. Some young people, when in primary school, gravitate to computers and forget about all else; others at the same age decide to become neurobiologists or surgeons and study nothing but subjects pertaining to their future occupation. Some American experts in education say that today about eighty-five percent of American boys and girl are not acquainted with elementary arithmetic and unable to add or subtract without calculators.

[Misha]

However, even professors of these universities speak of an evident fall in the level of training of first-year students, which has to be still more noticeable in the other two thousand universities

I would wager that professors in Russian universities say the same thing, as well as in universities from France, England, India... Also, professors have been saying this about there students since time immemorial.

[Faux Pas]

I would wager that professors in Russian universities say the same thing, as well as in universities from France, England, India... Also, professors have been saying this about there students since time immemorial.

I believe the same thing about any graduates from Georgia Tech or the University of Florida 

[Diplomacy]

I agree with that Prof.  I also do not know the education system, but I have plenty of experience with the product of the FSU system.

In all areas also, not just my disciplines of degree status.  The one thing I guess has happened is that both the US and Russia have been so worried about each other.  We have both failed at keeping the education standards to what they once were.

Yes, it is about the individual on some level.  The issue is the system that we place our individual in, it is horrible here.

[OlgaH]

Regarding the Soviet education: the Soviet scientists and scholars were always welcome to US  It is a petty that the Soviet Government did not care so much about them.
___________________________________________________________


Academy heads discuss problems facing U.S. education
http://media.www.smudailycampus.com/media/storage/paper949/news/2008/04/02/News/Academy.Heads.Discuss.Problems.Facing.U.s.Education-3297081.shtml

Special math classes helping kids amount to something
Russian school opens Marblehead branch
http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2009/03/19/special_math_classes_helping_kids_amount_to_something/

International Mathematical Olimpiad 2007
http://www.imo2007.edu.vn/index.php?module=ViewResultByCountry.php

International Mathematical Olympiad 2008
http://www.math.ca/MediaReleases/2008/imores

Oleg Golberg (Russia/USA) is the only participant in IMO history to win gold medals for different countries: he won two for Russia in 2002 and 2003, then one for USA in 2004

Math Skills Suffer in U.S., Study Finds
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/10/education/10math.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

The United States is failing to develop the math skills of both girls and boys, especially among those who could excel at the highest levels, a new study asserts, and girls who do succeed in the field are almost all immigrants or the daughters of immigrants from countries where mathematics is more highly valued....

...The leader of those two teams, and of the United States Olympiad team is Zuming Feng, who grew up in China and teaches math at Phillips Exeter Academy in New Hampshire.

[Misha]

Regarding the Soviet education: the Soviet scientists and scholars were always welcome to US 

Well, let us not forget that the Soviet Union stopped existing in 1991  The education system, for better or for worse, is now quite different in Russia.

[ScottinCrimea]

I'm seeing a trend in US schools that I think is a real problem.  The teachers are too quick to have students use calculators to solve problems rather than teaching the basics first.  I see algebra students who literally cannot say what 3X4 is without a calculator.

I see the same thing in new medical graduates, who haven't been taught hands on medicine and cannot tell you what heart or lung sounds mean through a stethoscope.  One actually told me he doesn't really listen to the heart with his stethoscope other than to confirm it's still beating, he just goes through the motions because the patients expect it and feel he is actually doing something.

so when I hear about design students who were forced to do things by hand first, I don't think it's such a bad thing to be strong in the basics before you rely on technology to do your work.

[ECOCKS]

Speaking with experience of the Ukrainian system....

Two different styles and mentalities of education. Facts, rules and memorization versus concepts, evolution and analysis.

The remarks about lack of analytical skills, problem-solving and (adding) creative thinking are right on the mark.

As to more subjects, the Ukrainian universities offer more courses however they are of shorter duration and it is very common to notice they split what would be one 45 contact hour course into 2-3 courses. This does not constitute depth as students commonly report that their instructors read to them or drone on in lectures. Many students register for classes and then rely on memorizing their friends' notes, only showing up on test dates since this will comprise the test material. Regurgitation of facts is the standard with little concept of case analysis or structured decision-making exercises/test questions being the most common. When presented with western case studies their initial focus is on what happened in the real case and they are confused and frustrated as to why no "right" answer is provided. When decision-making is forced, it is often a path of least resistance decision. Management cases for example are quite often answered with "fire the person(s) involved in the problem and hire new staff".  

Relatively few of those who receive degrees in a subject actually go to work in their field and there is considerable frustration if they get a job title without the word manager contained therein.  

[ScottinCrimea]

I've noticed this focus on rote memorization and lack of creative thinking in several cultures.  In medical school I particularly noted it among the Asian students.  As far as the lecture and book portion of the curriculum, they were tops in the class.  But when it came to the clinical side, they couldn't think outside the books.  For example with admitting orders, they would search in their books for the appropriate orders to write for the primary diagnosis of the patient so they could copy it into the chart, unable to grasp the concept of multiple pathologies as there were no orders for those in the pocket texts they carried around with them.

I asked one Burmese doctor that I trained under about this and he acknowledged that it was true and explained that in their culture, the young were not allowed to express their ideas.  They were told that was not their place and to just be quiet and go back to studying their books.

[OlgaH]

Well, let us not forget that the Soviet Union stopped existing in 1991  The education system, for better or for worse, is now quite different in Russia.

Misha, I just was saying that the Soviet University education was very strong.

[OlgaH]

As to more subjects, the Ukrainian universities offer more courses however they are of shorter duration and it is very common to notice they split what would be one 45 contact hour course into 2-3 courses. This does not constitute depth as students commonly report that their instructors read to them or drone on in lectures.

ECOCKS, I studied 41 subjects at the Academy during 5 years. In general about 4500 academic hours - postal tuition. The full-time tuition is 8000+ hours.  We had lectures, seminars and plus our students home work (essays, projects and so on, Sundays in libraries) and of course practice test with invited commission.

For example

Theatrical production ( all theatrical subjects) - 2312 hours, Culturology - 106 hours, Philosophy - 140 hours, Fundamentals of Economics and Region Economics  - 106 hours, General psychology, Social psychology, Psychology of Age and Psychology of Personality  - 296 hours, General Pedagogics, Social Pedagogics, School Pedagogis and Methodology of professional disciplines   -  234 hours, History of Arts and Folk Arts - 140 hours, Old Slavic, Russian and Foreign Literature - 180 hours, History of Siberian Culture - 74 hours, Theosophy - 56 hours, History of Russia - 140 hours, Ethics and Aesthetics - 70 hours and other subjects. And all that subjects are related to my profession.



 

[Wienerin]

I would wager that professors in Russian universities say the same thing, as well as in universities from France, England, India... Also, professors have been saying this about there students since time immemorial.

Leaving aside what I've already said about the basic differences (accent on pure academia vs more "hands-on" training) in Eutopean and American higher education, and quite corectly noted by you eternal quetch about the young generation - I have for reference 3 Russian professors with extensive experience of teaching both in Russia and the US. After overcoming natural bewilderment at the difference of systems (not only in teaching itself but in other things too) they say that they do not see much different in the students themselves. The only significant one was that here the students mostly work harder and know what they want to achieve - besides diploma

I remember a popular joke in Russia for a fresh graduate in the first job: "Forget all that you were taught in your university, and start learning to do the job"

[kievstar]

Most countries are ahead of USA students prior to college based on test scores.  After college, most students from USA universities are ahead of the World. So what happens?  Do foreign students burnout, poor universities overseas, or do USA students do better as they had a more balanced childhood.  Maybe because stupid does not go to good college in USA unless rich family sends them in corruptly.

I have no clue on why USA students make a huge jump in learning compared to rest of World.  But it happens.  And foreign students flock to the USA colleges.

Every person I have hired from Eastern Europe or Asia univeristies I had to make them go back to school once they come to USA.  Finance and accounting is not taught well overseas.  It will not change when the World goes to IFRS very soon - standard accounting for all countries.

I have several doctors - one from Siberia, one from Odessa, and a dentist from Kiev.  All practiced in Russia / Ukraine but had to go back to school when coming to USA.  I do select them because their from Russia / Ukraine by the way.  I think Russian / Ukraine immigrants, Chinese, and India work very hard in the USA. 

But a question.  Do people who go to Europe or Asia from USA do they have to go back to college? Or is their education good enough.

[OlgaH]

Every person I have hired from Eastern Europe or Asia univeristies I had to make them go back to school once they come to USA.  Finance and accounting is not taught well overseas.  It will not change when the World goes to IFRS very soon - standard accounting for all countries.

I have several doctors - one from Siberia, one from Odessa, and a dentist from Kiev.  All practiced in Russia / Ukraine but had to go back to school when coming to USA.  I do select them because their from Russia / Ukraine by the way.  I think Russian / Ukraine immigrants, Chinese, and India work very hard in the USA. 

Kievstar, don't forget that we have different financial and accounting system, different programs and different documents 

The same about medical system.

Regarding medical practice there are many lawsuits against American doctors for malpractice   

[Makkin]

  Remember no lawsiuts in Russia against doctors because there is no insurance to make things right for the wronged.

Makkin

[kievstar]

Hi OlgaH, I agree on doctors.  I only select foreign born doctors.  Last time in hospital in November the only American born medical person in the operating room dropped me on the floor head first after back surgery (moving me from operating table to recovery table).   I do not believe in lawsuits but could easily on this one. 

I did not use best words but should have said hired foreign students for foreign accounting and finance.  I wonder if best students go into other fields of study.  VAT (value added tax) is fun in Europe.     .IFRS will make all countries use same accounting - only taxes will be different.   Many people in USA with accounting degrees will have to go back to school as IFRS is very different than USA accounting - GAAP.  Most accountants do not even know this is happening within 4 years.

Study up on IFRS - There offering $190,000 usd jobs a year in Washington DC right now with 5 years experience and able to pass a IFRS test.

[OlgaH]

  Remember no lawsiuts in Russia against doctors because there is no insurance to make things right for the wronged.

Makkin

In Russia patience also sue doctors for malpractice and get financial recovery.
http://www.prpc.ru/pmpc/an_02.shtml

[OlgaH]

Hi OlgaH, I agree on doctors.  I only select foreign born doctors.  Last time in hospital in November the only American born medical person in the operating room dropped me on the floor head first after back surgery (moving me from operating table to recovery table).   I do not believe in lawsuits but could easily on this one. 

A woman died when she fell off an operating table 

Operating Room Fall Causes Lawsuit in Massachusetts
http://www.uslaw.com/bulletin/operating-room-fall-causes-lawsuit-in-massachusetts.php?p=1201

Patient Falls From X-Ray Table: Court Says Hospital Is Liable.
http://www.nursinglaw.com/fallxray.pdf