Specific Ukrainian Woman

[Vaughn]

But the woman on the phone will likely not be the one in the picture...

Exactly. The phone itself and a few carefully worded questions will allow truth
to emerge. I also doubt this woman's in Odessa, or even FSU. IIRC, there was
a hot "librarian" in Russia thread a year ago....on a South American board I learned
she was a Venezuelan actress. These photos sure get around...

Why just last Thursday, someone borrowed my own photo. Imagine that.
Here I am, ladies, let's correspond...

[Diplomacy]

Stay clear is my Advice, and I was on HRB before finding the site.  Spending money yes, but at least with a webcam you know it is an actual girl.  I had pretty much said I was going to Ukraine soon and friends until then was only option.

I got that same letter from her, but there was not any chatting with her done.  You can search by how popular they are and she is one of the top ones if memory serves me right.  I looked for responses to my letter and specifics with information that I had sent in the letter.  They have translators available, and yes some are men.  I chatted with one guy that gave me the low down on the good girls and what Ukrainian women were like.  I thought that any guy smart enough to get a job at the marriage agency, was at least worth listening to. He was in Dnep though, not Odessa.

I agree with staying out of Odessa and away from that agency.  The girl I was going to meet told me I had to stay at the agency flat.  I had that already taken care of by friends, said if that is the end all be all then no thank you.  They jacked the rates for the place.  She said the 19 married couples stayed there and it was bad luck not to stay there.  They simply know how spoiled they can get by WM, have seen all sorts of money thrown around.  WM are often paraded around town by some of the girls, showing off how cool they are.  Not saying there are not some nice ones, just tread light.

To be fair the agency owner said that there is no need to stay at his flat.  I laughed about it, but just did not like situation.  I did find some what appeared to be great girls on HRB there, that were matching profiles.  It is a numbers game, and a learning experience.  Ask better questions, and wait for better answers.  Saying nothing says everything sometimes.

[BillR]

Her picture is everywhere but that does not mean she is a professional dater.  She is very attractive woman and some agencies will steal her pictures.  Just go visit her. 

I realize that women may belong to more than one site in order to meet more men.  But the three sites she is on are suspect.

[BillR]

The pictures are professional model pictures (check the careful lighting), bad sign.
She is a 'casino employer', which if true means connections with the local criminal world, bad sign.
According to the profile she does not speak a lot of English, probably 'hello'. This means that letters like the one below are translated (read: written) by the interpreter, bad sign.

Three strikes, she is out.

And I did not even start regarding the agencies she is listed with...
Did you get a money request ?

I started writing to her in April.  She did not ask me for money.  Yes, her pictures are professional, but so are most of the pictures on most of these sites.  She also did not say she was in love with me after a few emails.  Some of the other women I corresponded with from HRB sounded very superficial.  Her emails did not.  She seemed to want to be very careful and not to rush into things.  My infatuation for her got the better of me and I would spend some evenings writing back and forth with her while she was on line.  As you can imagine, that cost money.  She might have been doing it to make more money for her agency, however.  She sent some non-professional pictures of herself with her dog and also around town without any makeup. I saw her on Anastasia and wrote to her there for fun.  She got mad at me and wouldn't communicate with me for a few days.  In the middle of summer I told her that I needed to slow down in the number of emails I was sending to her.  The recession was starting to hit the U.S. pretty hard and it was affecting me.  She was disappointed, as she said she enjoyed the attention.  I also had some video chats with her thru HRB.  But for some reason the chats did not seem to be live.  I tested her once by asking her to wave at me in the camera.  She said sure, but she never did wave.  At the end of July she said she was leaving HRB as she was very disappointed and hurt by the guys she met there.  About that time her profile appeared on Alena's site (NOT ELENA'S).  A few weeks later she returned to HRB but she souinded very different.  I began to wonder if it was really the girl in the pictures.  I decided to do some investigation.  I joined Alena's under a differnent name with a picture of some guy I grabbed somewhere.  She responded like she was very interested.  Then she made a mistake.  She told my alter-ego that she had a big house that she had inherited from her grandmother.  It has many rooms and a pool.  She was going to hire some guys to come remodel her house.  I said it sounded like she was rooted in Odessa and wouldn't want to move.  She never replied.  I joined Alena's again under my real name and pictures.  I contacted her and said I wanted to talk to her at Alena's instead of HRB and that I would explain later.  She did not respond and later disabled her profile.  I realize that the best way to contact her is directly without an agency.  The recession hit me again in late August, and I was laid off.  I have another job now and I am just curious and would like to find out the truth.  If she is for real and as nice as she seemed I would like to consider continuing with her, but there are a lot of concerns that have been raised in my mind, so I was wondering if anyone here knew Zhanna/Janetta or had any experiences with her.

[kievstar]

You wrote her in April and now it is almost January.  Do you plan to visit ever?

[dispozo]

Did you ask for phone number?
Did you ask for a address?
She answer your questions in your letters?
She never wanted to email you outside of agency?

 I joined Alena's under a differnent name with a picture of some guy I grabbed somewhere.  She responded like she was very interested.  Then she made a mistake.  She told my alter-ego that she had a big house that she had inherited from her grandmother.  It has many rooms and a pool.  She was going to hire some guys to come remodel her house.  I said it sounded like she was rooted in Odessa and wouldn't want to move.  She never replied.

If the story she told your alter-ego is different from the story she told you. Why do you can if she is real?
Did you ask about this?

[BillR]

Did you ask for phone number?
Did you ask for a address?
She answer your questions in your letters?
She never wanted to email you outside of agency?

If the story she told your alter-ego is different from the story she told you. Why do you can if she is real?
Did you ask about this?

Yes she answered my questions.  She said that she was afraid to give out her address because of safety concerns.  Of course she may have been scared by the agency so they could make more money.  HRB doesn't allow asking for ladie's personal contact info until you have been a member for a certain amount of time and have bought a certain number of credits. 

[BillR]

You wrote her in April and now it is almost January.  Do you plan to visit ever?

I haven't started writing her again yet.  If I can determine if she is genuine, I will want to visit her at some point.  But I have read stories on this site about men visiting women they met on these sites only to find they have been scammed and they aren't really interested.

[Vaughn]

If I can determine if she is genuine, I will want to visit her at some point.

Bill, I would've thought "if I will visit her at some point, I can determine if she is genuine" would be
more logical order. Should you ever decide to visit, I would highly recommend a solid back up plan.
There are some good ladies in Odessa - my local buddy Paul married one of them.

Just curious - did Zhanna once ever mention anything about her Mother or Father? And if she told
your alter ego about a nice inherited home, how did that differ from what she told you?

[BillR]

Bill, I would've thought "if I will visit her at some point, I can determine if she is genuine" would be
more logical order. Should you ever decide to visit, I would highly recommend a solid back up plan.
There are some good ladies in Odessa - my local buddy Paul married one of them.

Just curious - did Zhanna once ever mention anything about her Mother or Father? And if she told
your alter ego about a nice inherited home, how did that differ from what she told you?

She told me she was close to her mother, but that her father did not care about her and was not in her life.

What she said about her home doesn't differ from what she told me on HRB.  It just doesn't seem likely that she would seriously consider marrying an American man if her life is so entrenched in Odessa.

[William3rd]

I haven't started writing her again yet.  If I can determine if she is genuine, I will want to visit her at some point.  But I have read stories on this site about men visiting women they met on these sites only to find they have been scammed and they aren't really interested.

Seems a little late in the game for this girl if these are the right dates. Why would someone be interested in someone that never comes? The summer season is over. You should have been over there 4 months ago looking. . .

[BillR]

Seems a little late in the game for this girl if these are the right dates. Why would someone be interested in someone that never comes? The summer season is over. You should have been over there 4 months ago looking. . .

I'll repeat what I said earlier.  HRB has policies regarding when personal contact can be made.  Also, I have just come through a difficult time. 

[Vaughn]

HRB has policies regarding when personal contact can be made.

That's exactly why I suggest you ditch HRB and quickly. IMO, the purpose of an
introduction or dating site is to allow people to meet - when they start imposing
conditions like "credits" or "time in service" they have abused the acquaintance.

I paid 10 American dollars for my future wife's home phone, and then we were off and
running. IIRC, one of RWD's 10 Commandments is to eliminate the agency as quickly
as possible - and to a man who experienced a recent layoff and rehire, that certainly
would be in your best interest. William brings a good point to the table - you've GOT
to be able to plan a visit - or all the communication is worthless. 90%+ of men on
these sites never visit - some never even bother to apply for passports - and these
ladies, real or not, are very aware of that phenomenon. They know there's a good
chance the new penpal will never set foot in their hometown.

Just my honest opinion: I would save save save, plan a summer trek for as much time
as you are able, and begin writing women no earlier than March. Start afresh, and
avoid these membership sites like the plague.

Try www.freedating.ru for a refreshing switch from HRB's stranglehold. No fees, and
from a close friend's experience you could be talking to any of these ladies on their
home phone in a matter of days.

Svetlana, 25, 5'10" from (yikes!) Odessa...


Katerina, 30, 5'5" and tri-lingual, St Pete...

[Shadow]

BillR you told her that because of the recession you could not mail or chat with her as much, and that is when the contact was broken.
You are nearly a year spending money to type while drooling behind your screen, did it ever get in to your head that making a visit there would actually be a lot faster and cheaper ?
If you are spending so much money on contact that recession forces you to type less, you either can not afford to make a trip at all, or you are way too deep in to the scam operation.
HRB is well known for their tactics of having professional camera girls who make a lot of money from guys who will never take a plane.

[GoodOlBoy]

She told me she was close to her mother, but that her father did not care about her and was not in her life.

Probably a truthful statement. It is a well known fact that a lot of RM/UM "run" from their children and family responsibilities.

[neo]

OK heres my opinions:

I'm going to set aside the HRB debate for now which is really a distraction, a lot of people know i was married to a girl thru HRB and subsequently divorced but that wasnt anything related to HRB, just lifes usual stuff.

1: You clearly (by your admission) have developed an infatuation for this girl, this in itself is a really bad thing for you for a number of reasons, but I will try and highlight some of them.

Before you meet a girl you need to remain objective, if you already have an infatuation for her you are going to look over or "forgive" red flags simply because you don't want to believe them - there is truth in the fact we all already have made our decisions and we are simply looking for others to validate the decisions we made rather than contradict them - when you are already infatuated then you are going to be inclined to run contrary to every bit of good advice you get, I know this because i have done it and have watched many others do it.

The big issues for you are:

is she genuine: Well probably, there is an off chance for whatever reason you could get off the plane to a no-show but at the end of the day every single one of us takes that risk to a smaller or larger to degree for reasons only know to the women involved - therefore WOVO is always a high stake gamble. it pays off big or it loses big.

Assuming she is not genuine you will arrive to Odessa, agency will make several reasons why shes a no-show from her being away at her family for holidays, taken sick or whatever. if you do meet her it will probably be on the very last day and she will simply try and extract some $$$ on a shopping trip

Assuming she is genuine: Well she might still not turn up, she might turn up and simply not be sincere, or an emotional wreck who doesnt know what she wants. maybe she was more enthusiastic in her letters than she is in person, maybe like a lot of men she is a simple keyboard romeo where writing letters gives her an emotional crutch to lean on so she can avoid real world relationships, seriously i have seen every kind of response from girls when you actually show so there is no certain bet.

What we are about is risk assessment and risk management, what you need to look at is everything that pops another round in the chamber and everything that takes one away, so when you pull the trigger first time you dont get your head blown clean off. Things like HRB, Odessa and your writing pattern all add rounds to the chamber.

BUT: your admission of infatuation turns what should be a 6 shot revolver with no more than 3 rounds loaded into a beretta 9mm automatic. risk of death almost certain.

Infatuation for me is a reminder I need to get laid and get rid of those hormones and urges before I start thinking rationally about a woman who is going to cost me a lot in many areas and is supposed to be a long term bet. I promise you 1 very naughty weekend in Vegas will re-align your values away from pure sexual attraction (infatuation) and into a more rational approach to a womans character.

I'm currently writing to a girl who i will WOVO, to be honest with you I didnt even find her photos attractive - too photoshop and fantasy for me and I didnt actually feel that much attraction to her. Her letters are at best clinical and cautious, If i throw in a cavaliar remark that shows a negative character trait in me designed to put her off then i get a frosty response - things like this help clarify I am talking to a real woman who is judging me rather than a agency/pro who is simply looking to pacify me and massage my ego into a quick buck.

Its simple but obvious stuff most of which I will not reveal but a prime example would be to suggest you went out with your buddy and got drunk, most girls would give you a negatory response to that and inquire about your drinking habits under further scrutiny, a agency shill probably wont even pick it up (they might now )

It can be a hard job to remain clinical and emotionally detatched at the writing stage but you really have to, look at the photos maybe once to decide if you have any sort of "normal" attraction i.e not a raging bulge in your pants to the girl then never look at them again. Steer all your letters to entirely practical matters and try and involve discussing aspects of love and emotions that might draw you into feeling too much - you have time to talk about such things on your visit, for letters it needs to be about day to day practical issues of a man and woman living together and theri views.

I would also say an absoloute pre-visit cap of writing should be 12 weeks. you should write ideally no more than 1 letter a week for the first 6 weeks and possibly 2 letters a week in the run up to your visit to really iron out the last minute queries and niggles, you should also try and get in at least 1 telephone/webcam chat a month and 2 or 3 in the week before you arrive, if she really is looking forward to see you she will be glad to give up the time knowing the effort you are making.

The first meeting is about the most critical, bar work commitments almost every serious girl i have ever met has met me the first afternoon/evening I have arrived. I never ask them to meet me at the airport because TBH I like to get to the hotel, shower and collect my thoughts after a journey rather than have to deal with a important meeting so soon.

if she hasn't turned up by the second day then without exception i won't take a future meeting, if she had a lot of notice that I was coming she could easily get a few hours off work to make the effort otherwise she is not sincere or serious. and every decent girl has always introduced me to her friends and usually family after we have been out 3 or 4 times - if she is deliberatly taking you to "Out of the way" places then its a huge red flag she doesnt want to be seen with you and isnt serious. Any girl who is serious will be proud to show you off to anyone who expresses an interest. a husband is a status symbol, no girl would ever hide him!!!

I think you need to treat this girl like your apprenticeship and then drop her and start with a clean sheet in the new year after you set a travel plan together. its a great saying in ireland "is this the best way to dublin? to which the reply is "the best way to Dublin is not to start from here!"

[William3rd]

BillR you told her that because of the recession you could not mail or chat with her as much, and that is when the contact was broken.
You are nearly a year spending money to type while drooling behind your screen, did it ever get in to your head that making a visit there would actually be a lot faster and cheaper ?
If you are spending so much money on contact that recession forces you to type less, you either can not afford to make a trip at all, or you are way too deep in to the scam operation.
HRB is well known for their tactics of having professional camera girls who make a lot of money from guys who will never take a plane.

He probably would have been better off getting lap dances locally. . . .

[groovlstk]

Neo and William are right, if you're having to cut back on communicating w/this girl due to financial reasons - whether she's a scammer or not - you may as well Photoshop the words KEYBOARD ROMEO in Times New Roman Bold on all the photos you send her. You're so far from the prospect of visiting her as to not even exist outside of the pocket change you're good for when buying credits to communicate w/her.

[Gator]

Bill,

There is not one experienced person at RWD telling you to go for it.  That should tell you something.

Also, even if Zhanna's heart were true, she does not speak English.  The two of you can not have a serious, spontaneous conversation.  So you would need to have multiple meetings with her just to decide if the two of you are compatible.  And it seems that you do not have the money and/or time to do that.

If the above does not lift your fog of your infatuation, here are some hard questions:

1.  Is this Zhanna anywhere close in looks and age to the women you now date in America? 

2.  How much have you spent so far at HRB?  Be honest. We will not be critical but will demonstrate the profit motive behind Zhanna's reponses and also show how there are other sites which will cost less yet provide more realistic responses.

3.  Women such a Zhanna receive a lot of attention from wealthy UM and Europeans who visit Odessa on a regular basis.  Do you have what it would take to compel her to reject that steady attention (which pays well, incidentally) and move to your world, leaving her family and friends and language?

As Neo said (with an accurate analysis IMO), start over.  RW are delightful if you find a good one.  

Elena's Models is a good, inexpensive place to get your feet wet.  EM approaches reality, at least it is more genuine than HRB.  Send an EOI (Expression of Interest) to 20-25 women, and then judge the positive and negative responses.  I guarantee that the responses will differ from HRB, yet they will be closer to the truth.

BTW, do not feel discouraged or duped.  Many men have done far worse, and you have finally found a good resource to guide you, namely RWD.

[William3rd]

Neo and William are right, if you're having to cut back on communicating w/this girl due to financial reasons - whether she's a scammer or not - you may as well Photoshop the words KEYBOARD ROMEO in Times New Roman Bold on all the photos you send her. You're so far from the prospect of visiting her as to not even exist outside of the pocket change you're good for when buying credits to communicate w/her.

If that is what he came out and told her-that is what I think I read. . . that translates in Ukrainian as "poor american man with no future wants to be a pen pal. ."

I agree with the advice to start in March with plans for a July visit.

[BillR]

Neo and William are right, if you're having to cut back on communicating w/this girl due to financial reasons - whether she's a scammer or not - you may as well Photoshop the words KEYBOARD ROMEO in Times New Roman Bold on all the photos you send her. You're so far from the prospect of visiting her as to not even exist outside of the pocket change you're good for when buying credits to communicate w/her.

I really thought I was communicating well here.  I mean, I have been speaking and writing English since I was very young.  I HAD to cut back on communication. I apologized to her several times for that.  My ex-wife was causing me difficulties as well.  I WAS working for an unstable company.  The fact that I was aware enough to describe myself as having been infatuated with her should have clued you people to the fact that I am well aware of it and am thinking more rationally now.  After all, if I weren't, I would have gone on and on about being madly in love with her.  I am just trying to gain more wisdom about how to approach this.  I will not contact her again unless I am ready to go the whole nine yards and fly to Odessa.

[BillR]

OK heres my opinions:

I'm going to set aside the HRB debate for now which is really a distraction, a lot of people know i was married to a girl thru HRB and subsequently divorced but that wasnt anything related to HRB, just lifes usual stuff.

1: You clearly (by your admission) have developed an infatuation for this girl, this in itself is a really bad thing for you for a number of reasons, but I will try and highlight some of them.
Before you meet a girl you need to remain objective, if you already have an infatuation for her you are going to look over or "forgive" red flags simply because you don't want to believe them - there is truth in the fact we all already have made our decisions and we are simply looking for others to validate the decisions we made rather than contradict them - when you are already infatuated then you are going to be inclined to run contrary to every bit of good advice you get, I know this because i have done it and have watched many others do it.

The big issues for you are:

is she genuine: Well probably, there is an off chance for whatever reason you could get off the plane to a no-show but at the end of the day every single one of us takes that risk to a smaller or larger to degree for reasons only know to the women involved - therefore WOVO is always a high stake gamble. it pays off big or it loses big.
 
 

What we are about is risk assessment and risk management, what you need to look at is everything that pops another round in the chamber and everything that takes one away, so when you pull the trigger first time you dont get your head blown clean off. Things like HRB, Odessa and your writing pattern all add rounds to the chamber.

BUT: your admission of infatuation turns what should be a 6 shot revolver with no more than 3 rounds loaded into a beretta 9mm automatic. risk of death almost certain.

Infatuation for me is a reminder I need to get laid and get rid of those hormones and urges before I start thinking rationally about a woman who is going to cost me a lot in many areas and is supposed to be a long term bet. I promise you 1 very naughty weekend in Vegas will re-align your values away from pure sexual attraction (infatuation) and into a more rational approach to a womans character.
I'm currently writing to a girl who i will WOVO, to be honest with you I didnt even find her photos attractive - too photoshop and fantasy for me and I didnt actually feel that much attraction to her. Her letters are at best clinical and cautious, If i throw in a cavaliar remark that shows a negative character trait in me designed to put her off then i get a frosty response - things like this help clarify I am talking to a real woman who is judging me rather than a agency/pro who is simply looking to pacify me and massage my ego into a quick buck.

 

Well Neo, like I said in another post, I am well aware of my previous infatuation and so, to use your analogy, the gun has had the bullets removed.  I have not been willing to overlook negatives, and in fact, have had some questions arise in my mind.  However, I don't want to toss her if it turns out my concerns are not true.  We have had disagreements during the time we were writing, which was a healthy thing.  I am wanting to be sure about her character, but I realize I am not omniscient and perfectly capable of being fooled.  Perhaps I already have been.

[BillR]

If that is what he came out and told her-that is what I think I read. . . that translates in Ukrainian as "poor american man with no future wants to be a pen pal. ."

I agree with the advice to start in March with plans for a July visit.

My new position will in a much more stable area.  No I am not poor.  I am a computer programmer.  My issues with my ex are going to be resolved soon.  But I realize I was not fair to her (if she is genuine) by writing to her when I did.  My PREVIOUS infatuation got the better of me.  It won't again. 

[Shadow]

BillR I doubt that you have overcome your previous infatuation, from your posts it seems like you are still ready to run after her.
If you communicated with her 7 months without her at least trying to get you on a plane to Odessa, she was never sincerely interested in you. It does not matter if she is real or not, you have to put her behind you if you ever wish to succeed.

[BillR]

BillR I doubt that you have overcome your previous infatuation, from your posts it seems like you are still ready to run after her.
If you communicated with her 7 months without her at least trying to get you on a plane to Odessa, she was never sincerely interested in you. It does not matter if she is real or not, you have to put her behind you if you ever wish to succeed.

Obviously I am still interested, but it isn't controlling me like it once was.  My original post was made to find out if anyone here knew anything about her, especially anything negative.  So far, one poster shared a communication with her and another suggested I contact a couple of other members.