Law's Ukraine Trip Report

[Doll]

My direct experience is that my wife and her family are quite tolerant to other races. She is also proud godmother for the child of a mixed RU/Asian couple.

It is different, BC. Russia is party in Europe and partly in Asia so this is the reason.
I am semi Slavic   and semi oriental myself.

[BC]

It is different, BC. Russia is party in Europe and partly in Asia so this is the reason.
I am semi Slavic   and semi oriental myself.

Doll,

Note my use of 'other races' and 'also'. Small but significant.  I could expound but would rather not detract from Law's next chapter.. Rather useless to feign advice to someone who is vastly more experienced than I am in this area.

[Doll]

BC, I saw your "other" but African thing and "other" are VERY different for FSU.
These "other" ARE the part of FSU population. Then tolerance and marriages have a little in common.

[Diplomacy]

From all I have seen and heard there is extreme biased towards Americans to begin with.  So being open too a cross cultural marriage is very often not looked upon highly by a lot of friends and family to begin with.

During Soviet Times is it fair to say anything not Soviet is Evil?  I heard very few questions about what America was like.  One of them was do you drink beer in America? 

So if Law was planning on going Native, I would say not a good plan.  To find a tolerant woman like for example Sculpto found, that did not care he was of Jewish decent.  By his own reports it was not easy to find such a woman, and something tells me Law's life has not been what most would consider easy.

He seems to have good instincts and a good heart.  I am sure bringing home an American to the parents must be cause of some sarcasm to begin with.  I sat next to my Fiance's father.  His father and my Grandfather would have probably killed each other 50 years ago and not thought twice about it.

Lead by example and be the better man Law. 

[OlgaH]

According to 2002 All-Russia Population Census about 200 nationalities and ethnic groups live in Russian Federation.

One of my cousins is married to Azerbaijan man, one of my friends is married Korean man, and her uncle is married to Uzbek woman, one of my Russian colleagues is married to Afghanistan man.
International marriages in Russia happen often.

Idiots as skinheads with an idea of national superiority exist almost everywhere. I hope Russian Government will make law on such issue more tougher...

Russian skinhead gang jailed for murder of 20 migrants
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/16/russia-trial-gang-murder

[ambach123]

As promised Law I would not comment on your trip report, but I will tell you about my experiences, without knowing that you would not understand my posts.

I am a minority like you, second generation Turkish American. I have been communicating with a half Slavic and half Tatar girl; I plan to see her next month in Istanbul Turkey. We have discussed race, she has a Muslim name, she found living in Moscow and St. Petersburg challenging. She now lives in Tatarstan. Tatars are ethnically Turkic. Of course our skin colors and features are similar. I found her on bride.ru. ( You can argue that I should not marry someone who looks similar to me, otherwise why go to FSU).

I have been to Kiev twice, it was my experience that my skin color was a major issue with the Slavic women. I wish I knew six months ago what I know now. Dating is one thing mating is completely another. Though they found me very " interesting ". To find a Slavic girl is not impossible, just very difficult. Eventually I looked for someone with whom this was not an issue. There are not many minorities on this board, so you have to learn on your own. Whether minorities just are not into this pursuit or whether they just don't join this board, I don't know. There sure are a lot of them on the Latin board.

And even if I found one, that is just the beginning, you have to make the marriage work, difficult enough  without the race factor.

She has hard time believing me that American society is almost color blind, at least the young people are. I think for United States it is a major achievement. She would very much like to live in such a society, regretfully Russia is not.

[Blues Fairy]

BF you still can't read English, after all these many years here.

Read the following, and if you don't understand have it translated to whatever language you speak, you sure can't read English.

You make no sense.  My comment about you had to do with your sweeping generalizations, not with whatever internet sources you have read and are relying upon.  Can't you accept a simple fact that it only takes ONE woman to make the OP's search worthwhile and chances are, such a woman CAN be found in FSU.  Stating the opposite would be foolish and useless; no amount of links proving the high degree of racism/nationalism in Russia (which nobody argues with!) is going to change this probability. 
Before you accuse me of anything take a time to actually read my comments and understand what I meant to say.  It's no rocket science.

[groovlstk]

One of the things I've noticed yet haven't seen mentioned on any of the boards is that there is a HUGE difference between the young black men you see living in Moscow and Kiev (the great majority of which are exchange students from Africa) and African American men like Law. African guys in the FSU are tiny, slim to the point where they look malnourished, and have a sort of beaten-down, hangdog look. A confident, well-dressed African American man who speaks English w/out an accent is a slightly different prospect. Regardless, no doubt Law faces an uphill battle but if he knows the risks going in, it's his decision as a man to pursue his goals.

[Law]

Quoted for agreement

...it only takes ONE woman to make the OP's search worthwhile and chances are, such a woman CAN be found in FSU.  Stating the opposite would be foolish and useless; no amount of links proving the high degree of racism/nationalism in Russia (which nobody argues with!) is going to change this probability. 

You said in one paragraph something that would have taken me 4 screens of writing to express

[Shadow]

As promised Law I would not comment on your trip report, but I will tell you about my experiences, without knowing that you would not understand my posts.

I am a minority like you, second generation Turkish American. I have been communicating with a half Slavic and half Tatar girl; I plan to see her next month in Istanbul Turkey. We have discussed race, she has a Muslim name, she found living in Moscow and St. Petersburg challenging. She now lives in Tatarstan. Tatars are ethnically Turkic. Of course our skin colors and features are similar. I found her on bride.ru. ( You can argue that I should not marry someone who looks similar to me, otherwise why go to FSU).

I have been to Kiev twice, it was my experience that my skin color was a major issue with the Slavic women. I wish I knew six months ago what I know now. Dating is one thing mating is completely another. Though they found me very " interesting ". To find a Slavic girl is not impossible, just very difficult. Eventually I looked for someone with whom this was not an issue. There are not many minorities on this board, so you have to learn on your own. Whether minorities just are not into this pursuit or whether they just don't join this board, I don't know. There sure are a lot of them on the Latin board.

And even if I found one, that is just the beginning, you have to make the marriage work, difficult enough  without the race factor.

She has hard time believing me that American society is almost color blind, at least the young people are. I think for United States it is a major achievement. She would very much like to live in such a society, regretfully Russia is not.

Ambach, from your description you fit exactly the profile of peope that would encounter racism. In fact I believe that when you give a group of Russian skinheads a choice between you and Law, they would choose you.

[Doll]

I am not discouraging Law ( because it does take one woman) but have to agree with Ambach in all his postings.
Law does have a chance but has to be VERY careful.

[kievstar]

Hi Law,

Glad you had fun on your trip but you plan on making a second trip in 8-18 months - is this right?  You might as well not waste your time juggling several girls from now until than as they will not think your serious and it is a long time to go back and visit.  Might as well save some money and start the process over 3 months prior to your next visit.  I could be wrong but most girls do like it when guys still write / speak with other women after visiting them?  A girl who is still interested in you after you met them and she knows you are speaking with other women is either a pro dater or desperate woman.  Not good marriage material in either case.  You seem like a nice guy but you do know in todays age tours do not attract the best girls.  If you were a good looking girl with other desirable traits, do you attend a party with 10 men (mostly over the hill) and 70 plus women???  Tours help you learn the ropes.  Do one and quit unless you are still in the fun stage.  When I am looking the AFA page I never see any good looking women marrying man on tours.  Most of the men on the tours look less than desirable as well.  You may find a very good attractive girl at a tour party but more than likely it is her first and only tour party she will ever attend.

[ambach123]

Shadow, you are correct, that is why we are meeting in Turkey.

In all fairness, I was treated very well in Kiev, in the restaurants, public places even by the women I met. Personally I did not come across any overt racism towards me. The operative word here is overt.

[Law]

You might as well not waste your time juggling several girls from now until than as they will not think your serious and it is a long time to go back and visit.  Might as well save some money and start the process over 3 months prior to your next visit. 

What's up, Kievstar.
Might as well start over, huh? WTH?

The most premiere benefit of this trip was for me to verify that I have a shot at what I'm looking for. That's been wonderfully confirmed as a Yes. Next will be to see if I can parlay a marriage-bound relationship out of one of the several friendships I made. The time element seems most reasonable to me. I figure the time that it will take my non-English speaking acquaintances to learn English and the time it'll take for me to responsibly make another trip works out about the same. If things 'time-out' and a wife doesn't emerge of any of the lovely ladies I've met this round, I'll start over at that point. There's way too much relationship to abandon and it's much too soon to know if this trip was a 'waste of time'.

Whether my approach brings my 'seriousness' into question in the mind of the ladies is another question. That would be unfortunate because I don't think any of my relations are at the stage where such serious expectations have been set. But that's possible. Sucks for me if that's the case.

So my plan in a nutshell is...
1) Verify that I got a shot in the FSU- check
2) Wait and see if the ladies on my radar learn English- waiting
3) Reload and return to the FSU based on developments with ladies- TBD
4) If 2) falls through, scrap and rework another plan.

Last installment of the Trip coming up real soon!

 

[Law]

Trip Report Part 5


AFA staff and tour guide MAX!! This guy was absolutely great!

The Wingman
I head back to the Hotel and run into Lou! I shared my story about Anna with him and he extends his sympathy. My plan was to retire to my room and unwind for a little while, but he invited me to double up with him on a date with one of the kittens from Kherson! We return to what has to be the fanciest restaurant in Odessa. It was the same one that Anna and I had gone to just the night before. But this time, riding along with Lou and his date I could really appreciate just how exquisite this place was. I've never seen anything like it before, and it was newly decorated for the Winter holidays!

Lou is getting along really well on his date and at dinner I ask her to 'put in a good word for me' with her sister. She replied 'With Vera? There's no need for that. She already likes you!” So I sent a gift with the ladies when they left home for Kherson, just because...

NIKOLAEV
The tour was coming to an end and I had made arrangements ahead of time to circle back and visit Alina and Irina in Nikolaev. I fantasized about spending the rest of my time in Ukraine with Irina and heading for the airport directly from Nikolaev. So I leave Hotel Odessa and take a taxi to the Ingel Hotel again. I saw a couple of guys from the tour still hanging around, so that provided a bit of a comfort factor for me. And I got a good 'deal' on a teeny tiny room for $40 USD a night. It was small and cold, but I got a heater and life was good again.

So I arrived back in Nikolaev on December 12th Friday afternoon. I called Irina to let her know that I was in town, but she was much too busy with work to see me. Friday and Saturday went by and she still couldn't get away from work! I traveled all the way from Odessa and neither Alina, nor Irina were available! I would later find out that the company Irina worked for went bankrupt, so the poor girl must have been working to help keep things afloat. But I was growing restless at the time because my days abroad were coming to an end. The weekend was already halfway gone! I flipped through my notebook of names and numbers to see if I could set something up with someone else. It then struck me that anyone that I wanted to see from this point onward would require an interpreter.


Back to the Hotel Ingel. I liked that place

SAVING THROWS
Sunday morning arrives and I decide to give up waiting for Irina and make plans to see other ladies. At this point in the trip there were 3 or 4 who I really wanted to see and two of them were in Odessa. I chuck my plan to 'spend the rest of my time with someone in Nik' and count on heading back to Odessa for my last day or two. I reach out to Max at AFA to help me coordinate a ride for Vera and an interpreter to come see me in Nikolaev. Vera and her interpreter friend arrive a couple of hours later and my weekend is saved!

I had just been on a double date with Lou and Vera's sister and I was hoping to re-live some of the magic of that night. Ha ha, not quite, but it was still went really well. We settled in at the restaurant on the 3rd floor of Hotel Ingel and brainstormed about the best way to spend the rest of our time. It was already getting dark and very cold outside so there weren't too many options. I put the girls up in a room for the night and the next day we went to the Zoo. Now, the zoo would have been an awesome date, but it was kind of a disaster because the weather drove most of the animals out of sight. *Sigh* The ladies and I head to another restaurant and talk for a good while. The conversation turns towards some fairly serious matters and I agree to keep in touch with Vera while she studies and learns English. I couldn't tell how much Vera liked me, but she definitely showed sincere signs of interest. I ended up liking her very much, since she not only made time for me, but has a 'look' that I adore. Both she and Anna are from the city of Kherson and around the same age. However, Anna was sophisticated, stylish and a little 'complex'.But Vera was far less guarded and still moved and spoke with the inexperience of a teenager. She possessed a simplicity that makes you to want to lead and protect her. So sweet and adorable!





Ah, the zoo wasn't that bad. I'd like to think it was actually a winning move!

So Nikolaev worked out after all since I got to see Vera again. After she and I part ways I call up Max again I arrange dates and an apartment for my final days in Ukraine.



The adorable Vera


ODESSA... AGAIN
If there were enough people to see in Nikolaev I would have stayed there for the rest of my trip. I liked Odessa a lot, but I didn't want to deal with her complexity at this point. But with so many good places to eat I didn't mind going back too much. So I end up back in the port town on Tuesday, December 16th, one day from my flight back to the U.S.

Max made arrangements for my apartment, but the one we had in mind (The one I put Anna and Inna in) wasn't available! But Max is incredible. He upgraded me at no extra cost to a flat just across the street from the Opera House Theatre! I could see it from my bedroom window! What a guy! My dates with Valerie and Tanya were also set up. Interestingly Tanya was the very FIRST lady I spoke to at the Odessa social and Valerie was the very last.

So I'm to meet up with Valerie at 4:30 and Tanya at 7:00. I leave early to locate the school where I'd meet Valerie and on the way she calls me and says that she won't be available until 6:00! I really wanted to see Valerie, but I decided to cut my time with her short rather than move my date with Tanya further back. Valerie and I meet at 6:00 and spent some time at a cafe near the Opera House. An hour later I put her in a cab and run off to meet Tanya- late again.

I get to the AFA business office where I'm to meet Tanya and my interpreter for the night, MAX!! I don't know if I was happier to be out with Tanya or Max! Now, Tanya was the very first lady I talked to at the Odessa social and I didn't remember her all that well. So we meet and head out for...bowling!

I've always thought that the dinner date was the worst possible format to get to know someone. If you're hungry they'll spend most of the time watching you chew. And if you're not hungry you end up spending money on food that you don't get to eat. That's not the best case to shut down the dinner date, because it'll always have its place in our dating lives, but I'd much rather get to know someone doing something fun. Tanya resisted the bowling idea a little, but soon caved in. I also figured that since Max was there he'd bring an extra element of fun. During the game Max leans over to me and says that Tanya really wants to talk, so we finish up our game and spend the rest of the night at a pretty nice sushi place.

Over dinner I became really impressed with Tanya. I didn't get her exact age, but my guess is that she's a few years older than most of the other gals I hung out with. I could sense her moving 'towards' me in ways that signaled her acceptance of me in a major way. I loved it! I had felt this with other ladies on the trip, but from Tanya it rang out bolder and clearer. I could tell she was considering me very seriously for a relationship. The night drew to a close and I got that 'I don't want it to end' feeling. Before cabs arrived for Tanya and Max, we agreed to have breakfast before my trek to the airport the next day.



The Airport at Odessa
Tanya was not only early to meet for breakfast, she rode with me to the airport and brought a gift! I was so flattered!

The airport looked so much less threatening the second time through. When I looked around I didn't jump at the shadows of 'enemies lurking behind the scene', but I saw potential friends and acquaintances. I know that I will never be friends with everyone I meet. But I always find that once I open myself up and give people that chance to do the same, people are typically polite, respectable and generally pleasant.

I could have made that trip to the airport alone but I was so glad to have the company. After a manly hug for Max and a delicate kiss on the cheek for Tanya I passed through the double doors to the immigration area. My big trip to Ukraine was all behind me and for the next 3 days I'd be hopping on and off planes until I reached LAX.




It cost a lot of time and money, but it was worth it!
I had the experience of a lifetime and the things I learned on this trip will stay with me for the rest my my life.

[kievstar]

Hi Law - you said 8 to 18 months on next visit - that is a longtime.  why not sooner?  If your waiting on English, that is going to take longer.  I used to live in Ukraine and I still go there 1-2 times a month so I am just trying to help you out.

[Law]

Hi Law - you said 8 to 18 months on next visit - that is a longtime.  why not sooner?  If your waiting on English, that is going to take longer.  I used to live in Ukraine and I still go there 1-2 times a month so I am just trying to help you out.

That's cool. I considered your post very carefully, so please forgive any tension in my reply.

I wish I could afford to visit the FSU 2x a month, or even once a month, but I can't. Not responsibly, anyway. Honestly, my approach to international dating is still developing. Going forward, I want to make the most of my December trip. But just like anything...if I had known then what I know now... yeah, I would have done a handful of things differently. I'll share more about that later....

But for now...

[Law]

Ukraine 2008
Looking Back

AFA Tour- I'm very happy that I went with a tour. It got me acquainted with a new country and I met some great people as a result. On future trips to Odessa I won't purchase a tour, but I may reach out to an agency of some sort again. If I go to new country I would consider purchasing a tour again or locate a good travel guide.

As far as the Socials go- There were things I liked and things I didn't. Overall I have a very favorable view of them. Thanks to them I was able to meet some pretty amazing people. I wouldn't want them to be the only weapon in my arsenal of love, but they're useful with the right mix of writing ahead of time and an open mind.

The Airplane Ride- Next time I will definitely bring a laptop, handheld game console and sleeping pills. I'll also take the 'short' way to Eastern Europe and fly over the pole instead of across the North American continent and over the Atlantic.


Racial Issues-  Race is never as simple as 'Black' or 'White'. For better or worse (usually for worse) the labels that make it so much easier for us to 'get to our point' get us into trouble. No one can discount the awful reality of racism in the FSU or anywhere else in the world. My concern as it relates to this discussion is whether it emerges as a dating preference (harmless) or active racial hatred (very dangerous). From my experience as a Black American and as a foreigner my conclusions remain unchanged- IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL. Everyone knows that the real issue behind any racism is so much bigger than race itself. But that is another topic entirely.

Some people want to make every bad thing that happens to minorities an issue of racial hatred. Being ignored by a beautiful woman and being ignored by a beautiful woman who hates Blacks isn't really any different, is it? Getting attacked by a drunk guy and getting attacked by a drunk guy who hates Blacks comes out about the same in my book. Either way, I gotta run. See ya.

Someone to Love- In some ways I feel like I'm closer to finding her. And even if she's not in the line up of people I've met during this trip my venture wasn't a waste of time or money. My eyes have been opened to the international dating scene that will forever change my understanding about women. I suspect that women from the FSU are far more open minded about race, age and social status than women from the U.S. but they're not 'easy, cheap dates' by any stretch. My encounters were so much more favorable than almost any I've had here in the States. So risks and all, I'll be going back.

Thanks to EVERYONE for taking the time to read all of this. It takes a special quality of people who can share these experiences the way you all have. I look forward to keeping y'all posted on future developments.

Are They Real?








Oh yes they are!
But y'all knew that already

-Law

(see you online)

[Gator]

Hi Law,

Excellent report!  Thank you.

You are a good looking, intelligent, charming young man and I wonder what compels you to seek UW when there should be plenty of AW who would enjoy dating you.  My major concern is that because of language barriers, cultural differences and compressed time schedules it takes a long time to determine a RW's values (to include her morals), goals, intellect, sense of humor, and all of those other factors so important to a happy marriage.  And you do not have the time!?!?

BTW, all the UW snapshots in your "Are They Real" display matched their profile pic.  The only exception is the one at the top - she is much younger in her profile pic.  Her snapshot reveals her to be 17, and not the 13-yo shown in her profile pic.  

[Doll]

You are a good looking, intelligent, charming young man and I wonder what compels you to seek UW when there should be plenty of AW who would enjoy dating you.

Why?

[BC]

You are a good looking, intelligent, charming young man and I wonder what compels you to seek UW when there should be plenty of AW who would enjoy dating you.  My major concern is that because of language barriers, cultural differences and compressed time schedules it takes a long time to determine a RW's values (to include her morals), goals, intellect, sense of humor, and all of those other factors so important to a happy marriage.  And you do not have the time!?!?

Oh what a luxury youth is..

For his age, his 'pace' seems quite ok and within his financial capabilities and seems he is committed to learning the language etc which of course takes time..  Us older geezers are usually in a time crunch, spending big bucks (sometime foolishly) in lieu of taking our time. New interpretation of 'time is money'.. LOL

[kievstar]

Not all AM go to Ukraine because they have problems with AW.  I run into a lot of expats who work in Eastern Europe / South America and they end up having divorces as most AW do not like living in Brazil or Eastern Europe. These men end up with Eastern Europe or Brazilian wives.  I also ran into a lot of guys like Law in Kiev when I lived there - young and well educated and could date girls anywhere but liked the RW.  Its good that Law had the time to do an excellent trip report most of the young guys I run into do not have the time to play around on the internet.

[BillyB]

My plan is to communicate with a handful of ladies until my second trip, make another visit in 8-18 months and (ideally) put a ring on someone's finger before I hop on the plane to return home. That, of course means another 6-8 months for the visa, which protracts an optimistic marriage timeline out by almost 2+ years...and that's without having an actual marriage candidate in mind....

Bad Idea. Don't let a long timeline or limited finances pressure you to put a ring on a RW's finger. A ring wouldn't have sealed the deal on this trip nor will it seal the deal on the next unless a woman really wants you to begin with. Also bringing a ring can turn off some women especially if you are visiting numerous women. They'd question if the ring was bought for her or any woman that came along willing to accept your proposal. Bringing a ring will put added pressure on you to make a serious decision to live with a woman forever when you've only met her for a few days. You have better odds of success in Las Vegas.

Regardless how you feel about racism in the FSU, the sooner you understand some women have a problem with your skin color and eliminate them, the better your chances to find a woman who has no problems with you and accepts you as a serious candidate for marriage. I suggest before ever going back to the FSU is to find some women who are interested in you through letters. Then get their phone number and call often. If they invest their time to talk with you, then they may be serious about you. Most women will not give you much of their time if they have no interest in you to begin with. So... don't get on a plane until you find at least one woman who enjoys hearing your voice and what you have to say.

[ECOCKS]

I am new here but have to comment that I am enjoying Law's story.  While I have only worked my way up to the third page of the thread, it is proving positively riveting!

You should consider developing your writing skills Law!

Ed

[ScottinCrimea]

Law,  Great T/R and I loved the photos!  You are going about things with the right attitude and actions, you have a lot going for you, and I'm sure that, given time, you will meet with success.  Just a couple of things bother me, though.  The idea of meeting a woman who is interested and then expecting her to learn English in a relatively short time if she wants to continue the relationship is one.  First, you are expecting her to take the time and go to the expense of English lessons as a requirement for the relationship to continue, one which, by your own admission, will be very preliminary before this happens.  That is a lot to ask of someone who has met you only once and I'm sure realizes that you are in contact with other women and expecting the same of them.  As you have learned, requiring an interpreter greatly increases the costs and limits the ability to really discuss substantive issues.  Whether it's the time it takes her to learn English WELL or to sort things through translation, it is going to take more time to really get to know each other.  Finding a woman with a decent grasp of English will really simplify things and is something to consider strongly.

The other thing is that you seemed surprised that your race wasn't so much of an issue while you were there, perhaps because of the comments of some members here.  If you recall, those that have the experience to really know and understand (this of course excludes Ambach whose opinions and advice are usually ill-informed), said that at the stage where you are at in the process, it would not be a noticeable disadvantage and in some ways could be an advantage as, no offense please, you are something different than they are used to and they might be more quick to flirt with you or show interest.  Even knowing your race and seeing your pictures up front, many will engage in correspondence who might never consider anything beyond that.  Now whether Anna's reaction on meeting was due to the reality of seeing your race face to face, who knows?  The same thing has happened to many other men who thought they were in love and loved after months of correspondence only to see everything crash down on meeting.  Maybe their obesity, age, something stuck in their teeth, etc. was too much to deal with face to face but was okay when it was nothing more serious than correspondence.

The truth is that in many, if not most, cases the true impact of some issues, such as race, won't be truly known until well into the relationship.  I don't have any answers for this except to weed out up front those for whom it seems to be even the slightest problem and take things slowly so that if it reaches the point where you want to take things to the next level and you learn that some issue prevents her from going there, that you can back away without the broken heart.

I personally am very impressed with you, at least how you present yourself in your posts  , and to be honest would have no problem with you dating one of my daughters.  (Sorry, they are either married already or too young).  I think you will have success and hope my thoughts will help.  Of course things won't necessarily go according to the plan and the timetable you desire (nothing ever does).  One of the most important attributes in visiting the FSU and marrying a RW is flexibility.

Don't take 18 months to return.  I'm already looking forward to your next TR and don't want to wait that long.