Law's Ukraine Trip Report

[ECOCKS]

GOB:

I'm not a lawyer but maybe the couple we have on here could comment as to whether the "membership" process here qualifies as establishing it as "private" from a legal viewpoint. Since it is an automated, free situation, I sort of doubt it.  This would probably be particularly important in the case of copyright and civil liability issues since it includes not only pictures but also written comments among other copyrighted material.  As to ethics, they are personal, not absolute. 

Personally, I would be chagrined if one of those girls called me and told me her mother might see those pictures and she thought I was inconsiderate by posting them like this.  I would immediately apologize, pull the picture and ponder whether the other pictures I posted might be a inconsiderate as well.

[GoodOlBoy]

Personally, I would be chagrined if one of those girls called me and told me her mother might see those pictures and she thought I was inconsiderate by posting them like this.

I guess your scenario is possible if the girl sitting in Ukraine/Russia was a REGISTERED MEMEBER of RWD.

Otherwise, how would she even possible know anything about any of this ?


GOB

[ECOCKS]

My understanding is that there are quite a few FSUW women on here. I doubt that it is a big secret from some of the women who date WM that this is one of many places they can get information. All that seems to happen when you register is that you respond from the valid email address that received the automatic activation.  This is also skipping over the men involved, the businesses/advertisers that are mentioned on here and the possibility that LEO's might peruse it looking for people silly enough to confess their activities.

Again, written material is not subject to the member status requirement.

[GoodOlBoy]

My understanding is that there are quite a few FSUW women on here.

Ah yes....... the occasional troublemaking TROLLS that stop by our forum to stir up the sh*t.   :evil:


GOB

[Admin]

Interesting situation.

These TR's with photos are certainly more informative and enjoyable than those without.  However, this IS a public bulletin board and, from an ethical viewpoint should make each of us pause and consider a moment or two.  It is one thing to put up a picture or two showing examples of the "good time I had on my trip" but confirming with the people pictured that they have no objection is the right thing to do.

And it cuts both ways.  Some of the guys on the trip could be cheating on their wives, dodging warrants or even, as Law alludes to in a joking manner, be a bit embarassed about being on the trip in the first place. They may not appreciate it.

That said, I think that the poster is responsible to the individuals he posts for his actions.  It is up to the Admin/Owner of the board to set a posting policy he is comfortable with and accepts responsibility for.

So my feeling is that Admin is ultimately responsible for pictorial and editorial content policies on the board and individual members are responsible for any ethical or copyright situations created by the posting of pictures, naming of names, description of actions, etc.

In terms of the "policy," it was posted quite some time ago - reference this sticky post -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4657.0

- Dan

[Admin]

GOB:

I'm not a lawyer but maybe the couple we have on here could comment as to whether the "membership" process here qualifies as establishing it as "private" from a legal viewpoint. Since it is an automated, free situation, I sort of doubt it.  This would probably be particularly important in the case of copyright and civil liability issues since it includes not only pictures but also written comments among other copyrighted material.  As to ethics, they are personal, not absolute. 

Personally, I would be chagrined if one of those girls called me and told me her mother might see those pictures and she thought I was inconsiderate by posting them like this.  I would immediately apologize, pull the picture and ponder whether the other pictures I posted might be a inconsiderate as well.

I think y'all are making a mountain out of a molehill.

While I am also not a lawyer, I am pretty clear that RWD is not in violation of any laws of any sort. I further suspect that Law is not violating any law of any sort. I even suspect he is well within most (maybe ALL) ethical or moral boundaries.

- Dan

[Admin]

Law, There are some really beautiful women in Latin and South America too. Colombia, Venezuela and not to forget Brazil. Rio de Janeiro is an amazing place with probably the most beutiful women in the world, at least from what I could tell visiting. SB

Yep - and we have a whole other board dedicated to the Latin (and Asian) geographies, found here -- www.Planet-Love.com.

Just curious - your post seems a bit out of context - why did you bring the Latin options into this topic?

- Dan

[Admin]

Couldn't agree with you more and I am surprised that this thread has been going on for so long and that no one has raised this objection until now? No one else having a problem with Law?  It is VERY disrespectful and immature what Law has done. He is just too egocentric, not thinking of other people's feelings at all. I am sure all his dates will be very upset if they knew what he has done. Perhaps I should translate it all to Russian and post it as a warning to Russian and Ukrainian women on a Ukrainian site instead. Would be fun, a new topic Americans with cameras who don't know how to behave and with not so sincere agendas after all, watch out!    Perhaps I already did, so start searching in Russian 

SB,

A couple of responses:

>>He is just too egocentric, not thinking of other people's feelings at all. I am sure all his dates will be very upset if they knew what he has done. <<

I do not read Law's report as being "egocentric" in the least. Exactly what do you see that leads you to that conclusion?

Also, why do you believe his "dates will be very upset"? My reading of the TR suggests he is merely recounting his personal experiences and opinions. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

>>Perhaps I should translate it all to Russian and post it as a warning to Russian and Ukrainian women on a Ukrainian site instead. Would be fun, a new topic Americans with cameras who don't know how to behave and with not so sincere agendas after all, watch out!    Perhaps I already did, so start searching in Russian  <<

While you MAY have meant to be cute or funny - this sort of threat is NOT appreciated. Please see my PM to you on the topic.

- Dan

[Mishenka]

You are only partially correct.

To view any pictures on RWD you have to be a REGISTERED member and you must be logged in.

So the pictures on RWD are for "members only".

The general public, "web surfers" cannot see these pictures.


BTW.... SilverBUllet do us all a favor and crawl back into your troll hole.


GOB

Actually GOB this is a totally public web site and anyone and everyone can view Everything here regardless of membership. In any case all one has to do is join to view photos. I was furious when i found hundreds of my posts available for the world to read. It cost me a relationship back then when someone decided to search my email address and RWD threads showed.

Galina was furious to find her photo on google search from a dating site she never joined. It was stolen from the only one she has signed up with. She deleted her account and found her photo when she googled her name.

The main reason I never wrote TR is because it is very important to her to keep our private lives private. RW are private in all they do for many reasons. They guard their dignity like a mother lion guards her cubs.In her case Momma Bear. I see nothing wrong with posting photos once permission is granted. In any case, before anyone posts someone else's photo, reverse the situation and ask themself, how would I feel if someone posted my photo's all over the internet?

Mishenka

[GoodOlBoy]

....anyone and everyone can view Everything here .....

Not True.

You cannot see photos without a membership (joining RWD).

.....In any case all one has to do is join to view photos.....

Yes, as I have stated previously, you HAVE to be a "member" (join RWD) to see the photos.


And once a person joins (membership) RWD, you come under the "auspices" of Dan (THE ADMIN MAN). That way if someone decides to "steal pictures" to repost or other terrible things, Dan will lay the smackdown on the perpetrators candy as*.

GOB

[Admin]

Actually GOB this is a totally public web site and anyone and everyone can view Everything here regardless of membership. In any case all one has to do is join to view photos. I was furious when i found hundreds of my posts available for the world to read. It cost me a relationship back then when someone decided to search my email address and RWD threads showed.

Galina was furious to find her photo on google search from a dating site she never joined. It was stolen from the only one she has signed up with. She deleted her account and found her photo when she googled her name.

The main reason I never wrote TR is because it is very important to her to keep our private lives private. RW are private in all they do for many reasons. They guard their dignity like a mother lion guards her cubs.In her case Momma Bear. I see nothing wrong with posting photos once permission is granted. In any case, before anyone posts someone else's photo, reverse the situation and ask themself, how would I feel if someone posted my photo's all over the internet?

Mishenka

Seeking to clarify this a bit.

Yes, this is a public site, and yes, we encourage anyone and everyone to join. There are no limitations imposed on membership - though we do take the Terms of Service seriously, and that is where one will find *some* guidance on these matters.

As for the photos, we have a few protections built into the site. One is, photos that are embedded or that are attached, are NOT available for casual viewing by Guests. Only members may view the photos, and only if they are logged-in. Further, in the Gallery, we automatically imprint each photo with a small watermark. This helps in the event there is ever a problem with photo thievery, which has occurred in the past.

In terms of the whole issue of posting photos of others without their advance consent - this is a sticky issue, and one I will write about it more detail later. For now, suffice to say that it is my strong opinion (and NOT a legal one) that Law has acted well within any legal or moral or ethical boundaries.

- Dan

[Shadow]

The pictures Law posted were fully functional within his trip report, and he has provided a lot of background and information about where and how they were taken. Also note that he has provided more than one picture of himself with his dates.

Unless Law would have promised that the pictures taken were only for his own use during lonely nights (which I doubt seeing the nature of the pictures) the depicted ladies could object. Instead most pictures are casual in nature and I see no problem in showing them to anyone interested. In fact the pictures have given a better insight in his trip report as the text alone would have.

Everyone gets to make their own decision as to which pictures and information to post. As long as there are no direct private details, I see nothing wrong of a picture from a woman who was on the meeting and met Law in person. If the woman at any later time comes across the picture and decides she does not want to remember that part of her life, she has all rights to request removal, and I have no doubt Dan will do so.

To require permission from the people displayed is a travesty. How would Dan or anyone else go about verifying this permission ? Request that with every picture a waiver signed by all who are in it is submitted ?   

[Law]

Couldn't agree with you more and I am surprised that this thread has been going on for so long and that no one has raised this objection until now? No one else having a problem with Law?  It is VERY disrespectful and immature what Law has done. He is just too egocentric, not thinking of other people's feelings at all. I am sure all his dates will be very upset if they knew what he has done. Perhaps I should translate it all to Russian and post it as a warning to Russian and Ukrainian women on a Ukrainian site instead. Would be fun, a new topic Americans with cameras who don't know how to behave and with not so sincere agendas after all, watch out!    Perhaps I already did, so start searching in Russian 

WTH?
The offending images have been removed.

Everyone happy now? Cool..

[topofthekey]

Ya can't make everyone happy here law. Silverbullet is a new poster I believe. Personally I'm starting to have my reservations as to who exactly he or she is... and what his or her motives are.

[Admin]

WTH?
The offending images have been removed.

Everyone happy now? Cool..

I am not 

- Dan

[GoodOlBoy]

...Everyone happy now?...

Law, I am definitely not. Your pictures were a great addition to your TR. 

GOB

[ScottinCrimea]

Put me down as one who enjoyed the photos and thought that they added much to the TR.

[mark2353]

WTH?
The offending images have been removed.

Everyone happy now? Cool..

I agree with the previous post, I believe it was done in good taste and it added to the report.
 I was rather surprised by the "photoshop" work one of those images had. Put me in the minority or whatever but I though it was good education for those who fall in love with a picture.

[Mishenka]

Law, I enjoyed your web site, well done! The graphics are great That clears up your occupation for us.

The only legal issues I see with posting photos from certain dating web sites is "plagiarism and privacy". Neither of which apply here. Please repost your photos for us. They are quality photos and are an integral part of your TR. If the dating web site does not protect their photo's, they are fair game. I found the girls very attractive and a good representation of UA women.

In most cases, profiles and photos submitted to dating sites become property of the web site. A person reads and agrees to this in their terms of use/service when they join. I don't see how posting them here would be in violation as long as they are used by permission if required. Of course it is our right to post personal photos taken with permission of the subject. I could see if you were making a profit from photos and did not get permission, it could result in a lawsuit. An example, creating a "Ukraine girls gone wild" web site for profit. IF one of Jacks girls was to see herself on such a site in her micro-mini skirt crotch shot, then it might be of consequence. IF she lived in America,  and was wise to it, she would want some compensation or ask it to be removed. This is a lot of IF's but there are valid cases of lawsuits from past "girls gone wild" that made the news.

Once again Law, it would make us all happy if you repost the original photo's in their respective place and ignore the whiners.

Mishenka

[Admin]

Law, I enjoyed your web site, well done! The graphics are great That clears up your occupation for us.

The only legal issues I see with posting photos from certain dating web sites is "plagiarism and privacy". Neither of which apply here. Please repost your photos for us. They are quality photos and are an integral part of your TR. If the dating web site does not protect their photo's, they are fair game. I found the girls very attractive and a good representation of UA women.

In most cases, profiles and photos submitted to dating sites become property of the web site. A person reads and agrees to this in their terms of use/service when they join. I don't see how posting them here would be in violation as long as they are used by permission if required. Of course it is our right to post personal photos taken with permission of the subject. I could see if you were making a profit from photos and did not get permission, it could result in a lawsuit. An example, creating a "Ukraine girls gone wild" web site for profit. IF one of Jacks girls was to see herself on such a site in her micro-mini skirt crotch shot, then it might be of consequence. IF she lived in America,  and was wise to it, she would want some compensation or ask it to be removed. This is a lot of IF's but there are valid cases of lawsuits from past "girls gone wild" that made the news.

Once again Law, it would make us all happy if you repost the original photo's in their respective place and ignore the whiners.

Mishenka

And one more VERY important point is that lawsuits brought on these actions are almost ALWAYS brought against someone who is trying to profit from the photos. Clearly, Law was not intending to profit from posting those photos in any way.

Just one more point (albeit, NOT a legal opinion, so do NOT rely on my opinion).

- Dan

[groovlstk]

I have conflicting feelings on this, but ultimately how would you married/engaged/serious relationship guys feel if you went to RWD's archives and found an old trip report containing your wife/gf's photos? And that she never knew that these photos - along with an account of her failed date w/the TR writer - would be posted on the net?

I would bet dollars to donuts that the first thing most men would do is PM an RWD admin and ask that the photos be removed.

[Admin]

I have conflicting feelings on this, but ultimately how would you married/engaged/serious relationship guys feel if you went to RWD's archives and found an old trip report containing your wife/gf's photos? And that she never knew that these photos - along with an account of her failed date w/the TR writer - would be posted on the net?

I would bet dollars to donuts that the first thing most men would do is PM an RWD admin and ask that the photos be removed.

I think this dissonance is why we see this emerge as an issue repeatedly here at RWD. It is the sort of thing where reasonable people can find themselves unable to reach agreement.

I also think this is not unique to international romance, but applies to romance venues of all sorts. These are, I suspect, pretty common questions that naturally arise from the 'dating' scene.

BTW - in the event such a request were made, it would be honored. To date, we have never had such a request.

FWIW

- Dan

[SilverBUllet]

Law,
Thanks for removing the photos of the ladies. It is better that way. As for the rest of the posters, I also have to admit that the photos added a lot of insight to the story and was intersting to see at first, but then thinking more about this I felt sorry for the ladies who with good and serious intensions allowed you to take their photos for your use and memories from your trip. They had no clue that they later would be posted on a web site for everyone to see and comment about.

Think about it, when they hit the web like they did, you loose control of them. Anyone can copy them and do whatever, there are very little control despite "watermarks" and the like. That can easily be removed again.

I felt someone needed to speak up for the ladies. Can you imagine one of your dates, 3 years from now being married to someone if not you, and her husband find these old photos of her on the web? I would think the lady would be very upset to learn about it that way and it could easily happen. By then the photos could have been copied and pasted to a large number of sites, so even by contacting you for removal from this site, the rest would have been out of your control.

By keeping the photos of the ladies off the site you respect their privacy and helps maintain the site as a serious site. Thanks again and hope you understand.   

SB

[Ridersfan]

    Many of the photos Law posted were from a social setting. The women or men in them should have no expectation of privacy. You can find similar photos of the same women here,  http://www.loveme.com/tour/photos/Ukraine-women_12-2008/   

   The photos are so similar I was beginning to wonder if Law was AFA's photographer.

  The only photo I would question posting would be the one of the woman he delivered the gift to. If he did not have her consent, then it probably should be removed. There should be no problem with the others and he should feel free to put them back into his trip report.

   As for the original complaintant, I wonder why he hi-lites the BULL in his name, and I also find it ironic that he uses the photo of an unidentified woman in his avatar.

[SilverBUllet]

Thanks for your opinion but some of the photos were taken from agency sites and most likely subject to copyright protection. Then there were the personal photos taken of the lady in person (not a social setting mind you) to compare them up against the official glamour shots from the agency.

BTW, don't you recognize Penelope Cruz????