Gas Pipeline and effects to Ukraine

[OlgaH]

Ukraine's Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko in Kiev, Ukraine, 14 Jan 2009
In Kyiv, Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko said the full resumption of gas deliveries to Europe were being delayed because the small amount of gas provided by Russia does not create the pressure needed transport the gas through the pipeline.

Reiner Hartmann, an independent monitor, can confirm...   

[youtube=425,350]WGzNSRs2BqE&feature=channel_page[/youtube]

[wxman]

Just to pass on from my gal in eastern Ukraine. They are now occasionally shutting off heat to flats during the day, and turning on back at night.

[OlgaH]

The Russian media continues to lie about Ukraine "stealing" gas.

Now an independent inspection team from the EU has documented that this is not true.  The only gas missing is the gas used to transport gas to European countries.

See story in Russian language: http://news.mail.ru/politics/2299483

Simoni, question is who should pay for the "technical gas"?    The "technical gas" needed to power the compressor stations' turbines must be returned to the owner of the gas or to the consumers, if there is not any other agreement in the transit contract.

According to the words by Oleg Dubina Naftogas doesn't have any right to keep or use for its own needs the transit "technical gas"

"I have sent both a technical protocol and a protocol on our request to lend us technical gas until our price relations are settled to provide for the operation of the gas transportation system," Oleh Dubyna said.

Twenty-one million cubic meters (mcm) of gas needs to be added to volume daily in order to keep gas moving through the pipeline.

Heinz Hilbrecht, the European Commission's director in charge of energy-supply security, said on January 8 that Gazprom's and Naftohaz's transit contract stipulates that responsibility for providing the 21 mcm falls to Ukraine.

Hilbrecht said Naftohaz thus appears to be in violation of its contractual agreement by diverting the 21 mcm it was obliged to contribute to the pipeline volume.

[TwoBitBandit]

The one thing that is certain is this: all these events are definitely a big positive for the mail-order-bride industry.   

[OlgaH]

The one thing that is certain is this: all these events are definitely a big positive for the mail-order-bride industry.   

of course they want to be warm and it is difficult to do during winter time without heat and electricity in their flats  Winter season's hit: a lovely letter with money request for fire wood, coal and cast-iron movable wood stove 

http://kombat.com.ua/stat1/ekon1401.jpg

[GQBlues]

I don't know why people ever believe what Putin says.  The families of the dead journalists he killed certainly do not.
Like the little boy in the fable who cried "wolf," how can anyone believe him, or them?

The Russian media continues to lie about Ukraine "stealing" gas.

Well, I can't honestly say I blame them. Not sure if it's in effect already but I read in the recent past that the Kremlin lobbied a law that any entity that questions the state will be tried for treason.

As for our frozen brethren across the pond, maybe we can send you folks crisp new dollar bills under the TARP program to burn. The USD is as useless as our Constitution these days. With Pelosi at the helm, we won't have any use for them for at least the next two years.

[OlgaH]

Well, I can't honestly say I blame them. Not sure if it's in effect already but I read in the recent past that the Kremlin lobbied a law that any entity that questions the state will be tried for treason.

I guess you read http://www.theonion.com/content/index 

[GQBlues]

I guess you read http://www.theonion.com/content/index 

Ah yes, The Onion. Good for laughs and giggles actually. My only complaints with them is they render their satarical layering too obvious on the side of fiction than fact. They ought to take ques from a more accomplished venue, like say, RussiaTimes.

This is part of the reason I wondered why Putin even consulted with a US PR firm to boost Gazprom's public image in the EU community the last time the pipelines were shutdown two years or so ago. Instead of a Russian PR firm. They're definitely far more believable.

I still say that the timing of this recent gas transit shutdown is pure perfection however. Maybe those silly foreign investors, especially those from the EU, need to reevaluate their priorities about freezing out their investments in Russia, pipelines notwitstanding. Gazprom need to make the EU understand that they aren't the only one that can definitely use much more than just a little boost in the pipeline biz. While idled empty pipelines can't take too much abuse from the ravages of the winter cold due to friction loss, Gazprom also understands it'll last just a bit longer than people can.

Lastly, one need to give Ukraine far more credit with their involvement in this. They are well schooled from all those years..

[OlgaH]

Ah yes, The Onion. Good for laughs and giggles actually. My only complaints with them is they render their satarical layering too obvious on the side of fiction than fact.

They're definitely far more believable.

Lastly, one need to give Ukraine far more credit with their involvement in this. They are well schooled from all those years..

So just don't read it especially for making an absurd statements about "law and treason" 

Yes, agree with you I would also give Ukraine Government credit for creating troubles on International arena  During those years they have developed skills well 

The European Commission's director in charge of energy-supply security said Naftohaz  violates the contractual agreement by diverting the 21 mcm it was obliged to contribute to the pipeline volume" and Timoshenko  joyfully claps her hands paraphrasing the statement
   

[wxman]

What's really amusing is that western Europe believed the repeat of 2006 would not happen in 2009. This is exactly what happens when two 3rd world countries spar. There should be no doubt now that both Russia and Ukraine are both 3rd world countries, with 3rd world economies and 3rd world politicians. What western Europe is now finding out is you can't talk to children when they are fighting. They both need to be sent to their rooms. 

[GQBlues]

So just don't read it especially for making an absurd statements about "law and treason" 
   

Absurd. I agree. That's actually a good word to describe it.

Non-US 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1096963/Putin-decrees-critics-Russian-government-branded-traitors.html

http://burmadigest.info/2008/12/17/russian-treason-bill-could-hit-kremlin-critics/

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/international/europe/2008/12/18/188160/New-Russian.htm

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,3884461,00.html

http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news/latest-news/455797/International/2/20/2

http://lateline.muzi.net/news/ll/english/10084807.shtml?cc=44858

NPR (National Public Radio is a subsidiary of PRI - Public Radio International)

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=98578528&m=98578503

[OlgaH]

This is exactly what happens when two 3rd world countries spar. There should be no doubt now that both Russia and Ukraine are both 3rd world countries, with 3rd world economies and 3rd world politicians. . 

wxman, shame on your education  

When people talk about the poorest countries of the world, they often refer to them with the general term Third World, and they think everybody knows what they are talking about. But when you ask them if there is a Third World, what about a Second or a First World, you almost always get an evasive answer. Other people even try to use the terms as a ranking scheme for the state of development of countries, with the First world on top, followed by the Second world and so on, that's perfect - nonsense.
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm

[OlgaH]

Absurd. I agree. That's actually a good word to describe it.

So just don't make and repeat absurd statements 

[taras bulbas]

What's really amusing is that western Europe believed the repeat of 2006 would not happen in 2009. This is exactly what happens when two 3rd world countries spar. There should be no doubt now that both Russia and Ukraine are both 3rd world countries, with 3rd world economies and 3rd world politicians. What western Europe is now finding out is you can't talk to children when they are fighting. They both need to be sent to their rooms. 

I didn't realise in my 20deg apartment in Kiev that I lived in the 3rd World. Tomorrow I will drive my car to Odessa on a two lane highway as good as any in Germany. I will meet friends, eat in a resturant, stay in a nice hotel near the Opera House. Sounds just like The Congo! So what world would you put Moscow in, or is it another planet?

[GQBlues]

So just don't make and repeat absurd statements 

Even if I was a Russian citizen, I probably wouldn't mind getting exiled to Siberia these days anyway...   

[Simoni]

THIRD WORLD

I can see that some posters here don't know their political science and the meaning of the original term nor the current meaning...

[OlgaH]

Even if I was a Russian citizen, I probably wouldn't mind getting exiled to Siberia these days anyway...   

BTW I have had a pretty good life in Siberia 

Russia will be always a bad bear with a soviet mentality  A ghost of McCarthy is alive and kicking 

But what so interesting even during the Soviet time and Cold war Europe never had any problems with Russia about gas. Why? Because there was not any third side between Europe and Russia who could create the problems with own agenda 

Turkmenistan refused to sell Ukraine gas directly and  prefer to make contracts with Russian "Gazprom"  They are tired to fight with Ukraine about debts for gas 

Russia, Kazakhstan, and Turkmenistan signed an intergovernmental agreement for the construction of the Pre-Caspian gas pipeline on December 20, 2007, and the Russian State Duma ratified the document on December 19, 2008. The amount of gas transited through the pipeline is expected to reach a maximum of 30bn cubic meters per year from Turkmenistan and 10bn cubic meters from Kazakhstan. The construction is to begin in the second half of 2009 and end no later than in 2010.

Gazprom Agrees on Uzbek and Turkmen Gas Supply Terms for 2009
Friday, January 02, 2009
http://www.oilvoice.com/n/Gazprom_Agrees_on_Uzbek_and_Turkmen_Gas_Supply_Terms_for_2009/b6578172.aspx

Even Georgia, who has a grudge against Russia still receives the gas according to the contract with no problem  Why? They just don't mix politics with commerce, or may be because they are not a transit country between Europe and Russia 

[Diplomacy]

Well Russia did miss their pipeline.  If they had hit it, may be a different story.

[OlgaH]

Well Russia did miss their pipeline.  If they had hit it, may be a different story.

If they wanted to hit it they would 

Georgia cut the gas supply to South Ossetia during the August conflict under the pretext of alleged major damage to the gas distribution system. South Ossetia announced last October that the gas pipeline had been repaired. Meanwhile, a source in Gazprom says Tbilisi is ready to resume the gas supplies soon. 

[Diplomacy]

I do not want to turn this into Georgia thread.  I felt bad for the Russians, they took heavy losses and all we did was give Georgia some anti tank rockets. 

Now the display of Military Prowess they put on was not good for Russia.  They are seriously lacking and put it out there for the world display.  Now if they did it on purpose then great strategy.  I just hope they got a whole lot more technology they are holding back.

Strictly from a weapon standpoint.   

[OlgaH]

Now the display of Military Prowess they put on was not good for Russia. 

Thankfully to Russian Military Prowess the South Ossetians survived. They would be all dead or driven out of their land if Russia stepped back, but Russia needs to improve its Military to operate much faster 

More over:

December 29 (RIA Novosti)
The European Union Monitoring Mission (EUMM) said last Friday it was concerned over the deployment by Georgia of Cobra armored vehicles in areas close to the South Ossetian and Abkhazian borders.

Sorry for 

Any way Georgia still has Russian gas, pays for it and Gazprom doesn't have any problems regarding debts 

[Diplomacy]

Technically off topic, but it is my thread.  I think it was staged and fueled by both sides.  America new this, and gave them weapons when the writing was on the wall.  We new in doing that, the Georgians had no problem using them.

Those tanks were there and waiting, provoked or unprovoked.  Yes, the speed and efficiency was lacking.  The equipment to do it efficiently was lacking.  Nobody was innocent, except the civilians that got caught in the middle of it. 

In the end Russia has nukes, we have nukes.  Once everyone can blow up the planet.  I do not know how much more you need.

They took extensive damage, you would not have seen that with a US strike IMO.  It was a much weaker military.

[kievstar]

One thing is clear most of the former Soviet Union countries currently do not like Russia except Belarus.  Even the people in Kharkov Ukraine I meet now in person are starting to dislike the people of Russia.  People can blame the USA if they want for this but its Russia who does not treat all its neighbors nice. But when you become a top 10 economy you start having more enemies.  Just like Brazil is not liked by many South American countries, USA (World), France, India, England, Japan, Germany, China, etc.  Are any of the top 10 economies in the world a well liked country? 

[Shadow]

Ukraine did not pay the bill in time.
Russia offered a price 50% of the EU market price.
Ukraine did not open serious negotiations about the next year in time.
Russia closed the gas supply.
Ukraine did not transit all gas as they are supposed to do by contracts, 'diverting' amounts to their own resources.
Russia closed the transit.
Ukraine tried to amend a signed agreement in their favour.
Russia requested signing the agreement without additions.
Ukraine did not open the transit lines after re-signing the agreement.
Russia did open the transit lines
Ukraine did not admit the agreed spectators to their stations.
Russia decided Ukraine has no rights for a discount on the market price.

Of course Ukraine has no blame in this, and it is Russia who is not treating them nice. 

[kievstar]

Shadow - surprised you agree Russia is not acting nice.  But I think both countries are at fault.  Longer Ukraine waits the cheaper gas gets as gas is coming down in price.  Why does Belarus pay less than EU and Ukraine for gas?