скромность ~ modesty

[Vaughn]

I'd like to get some FSU ladies' opinions on just what the word скромность encompasses, and how you
consider it to be a measure of another woman's character. My wife, for example, considers скромность
to be an important factor in the selection of a mate (for marriage). Another word regarding character
that surfaces often is аккуратность (resembles "accurate-ness") which is defined as "orderliness"...

The way I see it, a woman asking for (or even hinting at) gifts during initial correspondence would not
be considered скромная. I fully realize that each poster will have differing views on what is and what's not
representative of скромность ~ so some real life examples would be appreciated.

Thanks,  Vaughn

[Lily]

As far as I could remember from Soviet times, скромный is the person who tends to undervalue his/her own qualities and achievements. Somehow Soviets fostered people to work harder but not to require much rewards for their work. Скромный does not work to stand out. He/she does not climb a social ladder. Скромность was therefore a big virtue in the USSR

Concerning women, a скромная woman would have problems telling a man that she is attracted to him, and would patiently wait till he court her. Скромная is opposite to a bold one. She is not fond in dancing, dressing out and especially in winning male hearts. She gets male hearts however as a gift, like Cinderella, because the men around are so skilled in mindreading and sensitive to recognize a beautiful soul behind her modest appearance and silence

IMHO, the woman who hints at gifts is even not не (un-)скромная but outright greedy.

[Vaughn]

Thank you, Lily, for the insight. The true meaning of the word has always befuddled me yet I hear
it regularly.

One of my wife's coworkers (and friend) from the old days pulled a caper on a man who visited her.
She decided to drag this suitor to a clinic - and had him submit to a complete physical - as if to
check his medical worthiness. My Elvira couldn't believe her boldness - and attributed that behavior to
a lack of скромность (roughly pronounced SKROHM-nust' for the unitiated).

I DID notice my wife to be "breaking out" of the old Soviet perception that lack of self-esteem was
indeed an acceptable (and encouraged) course to guide one's life. She ashamedly was involved in
a teacher's strike post-perestroika during which the staff had not been paid for many months - and
were scrambling, maybe even borrowing, to meet their monthly bills. Organizing and participating in
such a strike ran rough across her "grain" although ultimately, survival instinct overruled the accepted
norm. The teachers, BTW, found their overdue compensation was quick to arrive when they stood fast.

Regarding relationships, my wife would never have been the one to initiate communication. She allowed
me (or others) to make the first contact - and then would carry on from there. Requests for gifts were
totally absent. Although we barely knew one another, she watched out for my interest and her own.

[Diplomacy]

Well if Lilly's explanation does not tell you how messed of Soviet Times were, I do not know what could say it better.  Even Einstein could not figure out how women think lol.  I am pretty certain RM can not read minds, but then again who knows.  

[Blues Fairy]

Well if Lilly's explanation does not tell you how messed of Soviet Times were, I do not know what could say it better.

Japan is also pretty messed up then. Modesty as explained by Lily is considered a virtue there.

[SANDRO43]

Japan is also pretty messed up then.

Personally, I think it is .

Modesty as explained by Lily is considered a virtue there.

Yes, but with a MUCH longer tradition: since their medieval times, which lasted there until the 1860s.

If you consider that Japanese verbs have 3 different modes:

- Normal (e.g. used by a husband to address his wife & children)
- Respectful (e.g. used by wife & children to address their husband/father)
- Obsequious (e.g. used by the husband in question to address his boss/superior)

you can realise how much more deeply ingrained Japanese Скромность is .

[ScottinCrimea]

I asked my wife about скромность and she described it as being meek and timid to express one's opinions or wants.  I asked her if she considered this a good trait in a spouse and she said. "For me, no."

[Diplomacy]

Ooops I meant the reading men reading women's minds.  Not the concept, but I am certain that type of woman would not be for me.  Not a good match for me.

[Vaughn]

I asked her if she considered this a good trait in a spouse and she said. "For me, no."

Which, for me at least, magnifies the complexity in meaning of the word....Scott, could you ask
her "Would it be good advice to recommend a WM seek out a скромная woman vs. one who is not?"

I'm curious as to why my wife sees this as a desireable trait in another lady - for she herself is quite
outspoken, direct, and for what it's worth, loves to dance, socialize and host guests - hardly the
wallflower that the word as defined here implies. I believe she's referring to a single nubile woman
with reference to the trait. After a commitment - is another story altogether... 

[ScottinCrimea]

Which, for me at least, magnifies the complexity in meaning of the word....Scott, could you ask
her "Would it be good advice to recommend a WM seek out a скромная woman vs. one who is not?"

She is sleeping right now, but this might not be a fair question as she does not fit the definitions offered at all.  She is very outspoken, quick to offer her opinions and not shy at all about expressing her wants or needs.  If I had been searching for a woman with this quality, as I understand it so far, I would not have chosen my wife. Now having a wife that is not so "meek", "humble", "reserved' or whatever you want to call it has some definite disadvantages, it also provides some interesting moments.

[Vaughn]

My conclusion is that my old standby - the Oxford Russian-English dictionary's definition as
"modesty" is oversimplified - and that Elvira's use of the word is limited to a specific type
of lady - one who does not "throw herself outwardly" into the arms of a Western man.

Perhaps аккуратность and порядочность better convey the qualities she values in a
more positive manner.

   

[mendeleyev]

This is an interesting question, and thanks for the opportunity to learn.  Sometimes when joking with my family there is a little routine where I'll look in the mirror and sigh, while commenting on how handsome I am.  My wife usually laughes and says her husband is "не скромный."

[OlgaH]

I'd like to get some FSU ladies' opinions on just what the word скромность encompasses...

Very often some people confuse скромность (skromnost') with shyness, timidity and lack of self-confidence. But cкромность (skromnost') is moderateness in all needs and demands along with ability to observe the proprieties and ability to compare your self-appraisal with an appraisal given you by people around you.

Shyness? It is just a nervous occurrence, and there is nothing to do with modesty. 
Edmond and Jules de Goncourt

[Blues Fairy]

Very often some people confuse скромность (skromnost') with shyness, timidity and lack of self-confidence. But cкромность (skromnost') is moderateness in all needs and demands along with ability to observe the proprieties and ability to compare your self-appraisal with an appraisal given you by people around you.

[Vaughn]

Olga, thank you for the clarification, and Blues Fairy - for the confirmation. I was certain
my Elvira wasn't dwelling in the Dark Ages of repression.

[mrs.Shadow]

Hello,

I would like to add a little bit. 

Скромность - is a characteristic of a person, which can be used in different things:
In total - "does not try to catch all stars from sky" - living by possibilities.

in financial - Living on budget, spending money according to income, but does not mean buying the cheapest things that are ugly or awful.
in clothes - does not dress very bright clothes or special dressing to attract men's attention, usually to her body
in opinion - even has own opinion can keep silence, not demanding her point of view.
as person - if she has a very rich father, or a lot of money, or whatever, she is not announcing it everywhere to show it

one of the general reasons: does not like to attract public attention

[ECOCKS]

My wife played with a dictionary and a thesaurus a bit and found "unassuming" which seems to fit well with what I read here.  Good historical perspective as well.

[Diplomacy]

I see where the definition is fitting more into me a little bit.  I see it as maybe being happy with what you are and have.  Not making others feel worse about themselves to make you feel better.  Not being flashy or in need of being the center of attention.

Is that a correct understanding?

[Tamara]

Not being flashy or in need of being the center of attention.

This is correct understanding.  I started reading the thread from the very beginning and had disagreements up until I read posts by Olga and Shadow. In my opinion, excellent explanation. 

[Diplomacy]

Tamara:

This is where the difference of interpretation and translation is critical for sure. Until the point you mentioned, I was seeing some poor woman waiting for some man to come to her.

I now have to say that with the change in definition or different examples that is the way I am and so is my fiance.

[mies]

Another word regarding character
that surfaces often is аккуратность (resembles "accurate-ness") which is defined as "orderliness"...

usually it's more about neatness, fulfilling duties carefully, keeping things in order, having neat look and neat house, to the less extend "accurate-ness".


modest-neatness:

1) quite modest but not very neat http://img.dni.ru/binaries/v2_articlepic/191021.jpg
2) not modest at all, and not really neat http://www.newizv.ru/images/photos/fotorep/20080321184314_Britney_02.jpg
3) neat but not modest http://www.etoday.ru/uploads/2008/01/05/brtineyspears_lachapelle03.jpg
4) both modest and neat http://kino.ukr.net/i/200801/60I3b.jpg (ideally should be no makeup)