Dating Non-English Speakers: Opinions please

[Law]

Hello everyone!

The language issue came up a few times in the responses to my recent Trip Report. I'd like to collect some opinions about dating non-English speakers. I had originally been under the impression that expanding my search to ladies who don't speak English was a good idea. But there are some pretty obvious challenges and time issues too.

Maybe it's a 'no-brainer', but I'd appreciate thoughts both for and against if y'all have them.

Tennis anyone?

-L

[BC]

Against.

My wife had quite good English skills, but we still had considerable communication issues to overcome.

When it comes to relationships, communication is key IMHO.. if you can't communicate you simply do not have a relationship.

OTOH

With a heck of a lot of work and enormous amount of patience a relationship can develop.. we know a couple that breached this gap, basically starting from zero with basic sign language. 

I guess the bottom line is that it's just putting more eggs into an already full basket.

[Faux Pas]

Law

My opinion is, the heart wants what it wants. For me personally, not being able to communicate directly is a deal breaker. My first foray into international dating I tried with a lady with no english and I with no Russian. The results were not good. We simply could not relay our thoughts the way either of us were use to. Many misunderstandings even through an interpretor. I found it too frustrating to develop a relationship this way. My second and last attempt at the international dating I confined my search to english speaking ladies and found another true gem.

Her english could best be described as good but far from fluent. However, much better than my Russian. We have not had a single misunderstanding from language. Communication is paramount in any relationship and double that for international relationships. IMO there are far too many land mines in this type adventure that blow up in your face to be planting them on our own. Thus, I would not pursue a lady with no english skills. I know such relationships do work, perhaps I just don't have the patience.

[Enot]

If the girl you are to meet speaks little or no English, then you have to be patient and it will take longer to get to know her.  It is very helpful to know a little Russian, have an electronic translator, a guide book, a phrase book, and/or an English/Russian Russian/English dictionary.  You will still run the risk of communication problems but it does help.

[mendeleyev]

Essentially I think the Faux Pas approach is wise. 

However I'd also counsel us to think thru what is meant by the term "fluent."

One of the biggest sources of misunderstandings in marriage is.....communication--and that is generally in a common language for crying out loud!  Now add to the mix someone for whom English is a second language.

Language professionals will tell you that a person can learn to speak something they barely understand. Only when a lady has lived in your country and begun to adapt to your culture can she really "understand" English.  Until then, its dangerous to be lulled into thinking that because she listens and responds in English that surely she must have "understood" what we were talking about.

Given both experience and that criteria, my hunch is that most in-country University trained translators, as good as their forced British English may sound, really aren't "fluent" if they've never spent considerable time in the culture as well.

Language and culture are so intertwined that it's impossible to separate the two.  In fact those are the two main components of being "fluent."

[kievstar]

I am for Ukraine girls not speaking English (no opinion on Russia).  Dated 1 girl about 2 years (visited her more than 30 times) who spoke maybe 20 non swear English words when I met her.  Marrying my current girlfriend in a couple months and she speaks very little English.  

First thing I did with both upon meeting them and getting serious was put them in English school and myself in Russian school.
I did speak good Russian 2 years ago and now not so good but know thousands of words.  Just forgot grammer.  

One thing I would encourage guys to do is have a test done on psychological match if your girl does not speak good English and you visit her less than 5 times before proposing - test like the one Catholic church does in USA.  Not all religious.  Finance, children, etc.  Actually even if your girl does speak English I would have this test done.  

I have noticed many guys tend to go towards the English speaking girls in Russia and not so much in Ukraine as compared to Russia.

It is a lot more expensive with a girl who does not speak English.  I send all text messages in Russian.  We do not write any letters as both girls hate computers as a form of communication.  I tend to agree with them and like the phone.  I do visit several times a month which I think makes it easier to be with a girl who does not speak great English.

Actually writing from Kiev airport right now and flying Eastern Ukraine shortly.  

[topofthekey]

Lot of good advice here. I mentioned something about other eastern european countries in your trip report. Believe you flew into Odessa for AFA. If you were a little further south on the black sea you could meet a bunch of college aged girls (18-24) who speak english in Varna, Bulgaria (beach and college town). Something to consider.

[felix8787]

IMO, if she knows English..great, if not...then it's something that we currently will have to work on. It was something that wasn't a factor for me. The last 2 ladies that I went and met knew very basic English and understood me when I spoke to them but of course sometimes we had to use the EN/RU-RU/EN dictionary, the lady that I am talking to, I talk to twice a week on the phone with and with out a interpretor, sometimes emails and sms, she understands me when I talk to her in English but when she talks back, I have to think hard about what she said in Russian, because sometimes she says things to me that I haven't heard before and if I don't know it, I just tell her "I don't understand" in Russian. But so far we have covered damn near every topic and she hasn't misunderstood me yet through a interpretor.

She is currently and just started (starting 2nd month) taking English Classes right now because she wants to learn better English for me when I come and see her in March (fingers crossed) which I think is great because she is showing her seriousness in wanting to talk to me in English.
I tell her that I am learning Russian also and she asked why, when she is the one that needs to learn English, I tell her so that I can communicate with her also in her native tongue.

Law, if she is seriously interested in you she will want to learn English, besides it's only natural that she learns English if she is to move back with you....right? I have learned from my time overseas and from my friends that learning EN is paramount if she is to come the US and successfully intergrate in society with time of course. 


felix8787

[Faux Pas]

Essentially I think the Faux Pas approach is wise. 

However I'd also counsel us to think thru what is meant by the term "fluent."

One of the biggest sources of misunderstandings in marriage is.....communication--and that is generally in a common language for crying out loud!  Now add to the mix someone for whom English is a second language.

Language professionals will tell you that a person can learn to speak something they barely understand. Only when a lady has lived in your country and begun to adapt to your culture can she really "understand" English.  Until then, its dangerous to be lulled into thinking that because she listens and responds in English that surely she must have "understood" what we were talking about.

Given both experience and that criteria, my hunch is that most in-country University trained translators, as good as their forced British English may sound, really aren't "fluent" if they've never spent considerable time in the culture as well.

Language and culture are so intertwined that it's impossible to separate the two.  In fact those are the two main components of being "fluent."

I should correct my statement, sure we have had minor misunderstandings due to language but nothing to ever create a conflict of any sorts. I have been to Russia quite a few times now and have yet to encounter a Russian who was a fluent english speaker (in Russia). I know several Russians who are fluent in english in the US. In fact I regularly speak with some co-workers over the telephone who are native Russians and I had no idea until they found out I have been traveling Russia.

Back on topic, IMO, relationships that work are so doggone hard in the first place. Add in the extra element of poor verbal communication and that can be a huge obstacle. My lady's english is good but as good as it is, it still requires me to slow, process and re-process what she has said in order to garner her meaning. For a native Russian in Russia she has excellent english skills. I don't believe our relationship could have progressed as it has if she didn't. I freely admit that my lack of patience would not have allowed the relationship to continue without free flow, one on one communication. The ability to speak english was actually my first criterion when I started my search the second time around. The guys that take on the challenge of no common language have my deepest sympathies.

[groovlstk]

There are several guys here who successfully courted women who originally spoke little or no English, but it takes an extraordinary level of commitment on both parties unless you have the wherewithal to spend extended amounts of time together.

I tried it once and found using an interpreter OK in the short term. What happens when you come home and have to rely on emails and phone to communicate? If she's not 100% committed to you or has a busy work life, communications will be very short or sporadic. I broke off the relationship I had with a Dnepr woman for this very reason. Having an interpreter available for all phone calls is a huge logistical hurdle and I wasn't willing to talk once per week - at that rate I'd have never know much beyond the bare essentials of her life and character until about 2055.

You also have to consider how difficult her assimilation to life in the US will be if she arrives with limited or no English. Sure, she can learn here but during the most difficult period of her adjustment, the first 6 months or so, she'll have to contend w/the feeling of isolation in addition to the long list of other difficulties.

Law, perhaps it will be useful to you to consider these challenges the way a Vegas oddsmaker might. Each new challenge you introduce to an already risky quest is going to decrease your chances of success. You already have to factor in your race and inability to make frequent trips - keep introducing additional risks and you are facing some huge obstacles, IMHO.

[Blues Fairy]

I can't imagine what such "dating" would actually consist of.  Dating is all about talking (unless sex is the only thing you're interested in).  And how to talk if you guys don't speak the common language.   

[ECOCKS]

Your head seems to be pretty straight and almost frighteningly ordered in your approach Law.  Don't misunderstand, this is a good thing, just surprising.

There are a couple of guys who insist the woman has to have "fluent" English or they won't consider pursuing the relationship. One of them has been here 6-7 times now, dated nearly 80 women (not exaggerating) and still looking for Ms. Right.  He has other criteria which make things difficult as well though.

I would say if you can communicate without an interpeter, you've got the basic potential. Yes, keep a Eng-Rus/Rus-Eng dictionary handy because she will need to develop her vocabulary but this should give you an additional opportunity to test yourselves.  Seeing each other through some self-inflicted adversity isn't a bad thing. It also lets you see her willingness to work towards the long-term goals of your relationship.

The real key though is how much the two of you are smiling and genuinely enjoying your times together.  I have had some rough trips (bus and train) with my wife, eaten some foods that left me sick, been through a death or two in my new family and sat through countless meals with up to 20 relatives babbling away in Russian.  Through it all, I am still enjoying myself and wouldn't trade her for the world.

[Blues Fairy]

There are a couple of guys who insist the woman has to have "fluent" English or they won't consider pursuing the relationship. One of them has been here for 6-7 times now, dated nearly 80 women (not exaggerating) and still looking for Ms. Right.  He has other criteria which make things difficult as well though.
I would say if you can communicate without an interpeter, you've got the basic potential.

I would say the more fluent her English and the higher the level you are able to communicate on, the more criteria you are actually able to consider. 

[Sculpto]

I have had two relationships with women with limited English skills..

The first was in Mexico 22 years ago.  I learned Spanish with her.  In the evenings we would sit with the dictionary and talk.  If I didn't know a word we looked it up. 

For a while it was kind of fun and sweet, but, after time it became kind of annoying.  And, when we started to have problems it became impossible.

The second was with a Frnech woman who had basic English when we met.  She came to SF to be with me.  Language was ALWAYS a problem with her.  The French can be very stubborn about langauge and she was just not interested in really working on her English.  There are free English classes here at City College and she refused to go.  She found a couple of Frnech friends and they were always invited when we went to events or clubs or wherever.  They would sit alone and yack yack in French.  We had so many misunderstandings that turned into arguments because one word or some subtlety was missed.  it was a disaster.

Now, especially after the problems i had in Kherson, if the lady does not have at least solid fundamentals of English I move on.  I am working on learning Russian but....

[daveyj]

I think there are both obstacles and benefits to developing a relationship with a woman with limited English skills.

Personally, with a fluent English speaker I think one of my biggest problems is that I tend to talk myself into trouble.  I am very openminded and I have a sense of humour which thinks that anything is fair game. Plus I've got a background in classical theatre/shakespeare so I enjoy multi-layered wordplay.  So sometimes I'm just playing, and next thing I know the poor girl (referring to my local ladies) is looking at me confused and distrustful.

A lot of interpersonal communication is not verbal, but visual.  Also, verbal communication is not just what we say, but our tone when we say it. 

I've found that when talking to someone with limited English (whether a Quebecois girl here in Canada, or a Russian lade), that I have to focus much more on what is important for me to say.  Through the use of hand gestures, drawings, and a bit of effort I have found that the process of overcoming our language barrier becomes part of the fun.  Plus, it provides an excuse to defuse any argument (ie it is not US, it is our language barrier!).

Once one is no longer face to face, I would agree that things become a whole lot more difficult.  However, at that point one can make use of online translators/dictionaries.

One the my favourite aphorisms is Robert Frost's "I came to a fork in the road and I took that path less travelled by, and that has made all the difference."   I know that a lot of men would view good english as a deal breaker, so if I'm feeling a connection with someone I'll make the extra effort because I know that many others won't.

I also reckon that a non-English speaker is much less likely to be a scammer/pro-dater.

So for myself, I'd say that if she has fluent English it is an advantage but not a dealbreaker.

[ScottinCrimea]

There are a lot of issues related to this, many of which have already been addressed, but I'll add my 2 cents worth.  I the courting phase, you will be relying on an interpreter.  Unless they are very professional and well trained, they will invariably introduce some of their ideas and opinions into the conversation as they rephrase questions and answers, so you will be getting the combined views of the woman and the interpreter.  Many talk about discussing all subjects with their FSUW, but how in depth do they really go and how truly in depth is her understanding?  You just don't know.  In many situations they reach their limit and just start to agree and you move on.  One thinks they understand her feelings after a phone conversation and then find when face to face that they really didn't.

I can personally relate to what she will experience when she comes to the US, because when I first moved to Ukraine my Russian was very limited.  Over time and with classes, I became more fluent.  It was extremely difficult at first because there was so much I wanted to say but couldn't, and it wasn't just the language I had to learn, but a whole new system of doing things.  I felt like a child most of the time.  The sense of isolation was horrible.  Even when I could follow conversations, I couldn't really contribute much because by the time I had the meaning down and had formed a comment, they had moved on.  Even in Spanish, in which I am very fluent and have been for many years, I still struggle with the deeper meanings of things.  You, of course won't be fluent in Russian.  I can't imagine how I would have survived if my wife hadn't been fluent in English.  There were many times when I just felt like giving up and buying the next ticket home. Now add all of this to a new marriage, a new country and system, loss of friends and family, and you can see how much a lack of English skills magnifies the difficulties in a relationship.

Even as her English gets better, the more in depth you go on a topic, the more you will need to rely on a dictionary or electronic translator to get the real meaning across and even those aren't near perfect.  Imagine trying to have a deep philosophical discussion where ever couple of minutes you need to drag out the dictionary.  Eventually you just get tired and end the conversation.

Another thing I found was that the process of really paying attention in another language just wears you out mentally  It doesn't come as effortlessly and naturally as your native language.  Doing this all day can really make one exhausted.  Imagine when she is first here and adjusting, the toll such mental exhaustion will have on her overall attitude and energy levels.

Your ability to truly get to know her will only go forward as fast as her abilities in English improve.  I'm assuming that you want to know her very well before deciding to marry her.  Unless you are willing to take the time for her English skills to improve, you are better off finding someone who already has some decent skills as it will be a huge jump start on your understanding of her.

Even now, with my adequate Russian, my wife's English skills, knowing my wife for 5 years, me having spent two years in Ukraine and her having spent over a year here, some topics are difficult to discuss and, to be honest, are skirted around.  

I know there are many who have leapt this hurdle and now have a successful marriage, but I think that each and every one will say that it was more difficult and required a huge expenditure of patience on the part of both parties.  RW require a tremendous amount of patience, even without this added issue.  I think there are more failed relationships due at least in part to the language barrier then there are relationships that have overcome it.

Any relationship is a gamble.  In addition to the issues you face with any new relationship, in this case you already have the long distance issue, the cultural issue, in your case the race issue, the acceptance by friends and family issue, the limited time together issue, in some cases the age difference issue and on and on.  This is one thing that you can have some control over as you make your initial contacts. If you can eliminate some of the risks by eliminating those that you do have some control over, your chances of long term success go way up.  Ultimately your success will depend more on your ability to communicate than on how hot she looks in her profile pictures.

[Diplomacy]

My friend married his wife and she spoke maybe ten words of English.  He was on a EC tour around a decade ago.  Through the translator they knew that they both wanted the same things in life.  By his own admission it took several years of serious commitment on both sides to have a great marriage prevail.  Mind you they are both stubborn, and so am I.  Failure was not an option.

Patience, and a very keen understanding to the fact that an argument can not happen until you are certain that what you thought something meant, is what was really meant.  That was the best advice he gave me, and that is a 2 way street.  In my case you do get lulled into security with English, and then something comes flying out of nowhere.

Great things are rarely easy, and of course a very personal definition.  The more obstacles the harder it is, but also the stronger the relationship.  If you have overcome a lot together, then you what you are capable of also.

[Enot]

I would never use a translator.  Everyone I know had problems with their translator.  One thing they do is to keep the couple in a "getting to know" each other phase.  This also leads to a "failed" trip or more trips for the translator.  The translator doesn't want the couple to becomes serious because then the couple might want to be alone and not require a translator.

Avoid translators if at all possible.  An electronic tramslator and/or a dictionary are much better in the long run.

[Mishenka]

Hello Law, I have been reading your posts and enjoyed them. Regarding dating web sites and the word "fluent" written in profiles, few RW on dating sites are actually fluent. It takes years to master any language. Some younger women you will meet from larger cities will have the chance to learn good English in school. Older women didn't have this chance and would have learned from taking classes. Most you will find use on line translators that are far from accurate. One woman I met paid to use a personal translator and wrote pretty well. Still there were  misunderstandings and became much to difficult. I feel when dating any foreign woman it's best to learn her language and culture as soon a possible and you will understand her better.

 I had exchange students living in my home for a few years from 1996 on, then I began my travel to Russia about 1998. I have about 12 years experience in Russian culture, RW and know enough language to get around safely. I met Galina the first time in 2000. We were both married then so we didn't stay in contact. Since then we both divorced. A little over a year ago she contacted me and we began our relationship.  She knows enough English that we communicate well. She is brilliant, educated and eager to learn. She always has an on line translator working when we speak on the phone. This way if a word comes up she doesn't know she can look it up. she gets 3 or 4 words from it and then ask me what is the best word to describe the meaning. she learns a lot this way and writes it down so she doesn't forget. She asked me to send her to the Sheraton Hotel in her city, where they teach English classes at $30 per week. She wanted 10 weeks of classes, so for $300 she would improve her English enough to get a job here when she arrives here. We still haven't done this yet.

I want to stress, after living with her a month, we got along very well, but it became harder work when you have a new relationship, both people are a bit unsure of themselves, and you need to build trust before you wear your heart on a sleeve. Galina is shy until she gets to know someone. Things went well until we got deeper into expressing our feelings about church and spiritual things and then came the language barrier. Both of us found it difficult to express new feelings and put emotions into words we both could understand. It is hard enough when a woman and man speak the same language. Now after 13 months or so and countless hours of talking, explaining, dealing with emotions, we do pretty well. In closing, I reccommend you study everything you can about the women you meet. Learn all about her personality, likes, dislikes, favorites, personal beliefs, etc while investing your time in learning her culture, language etc. I didn't speak much about myself to her in the beginning. I wanted to know her well before we met and asked her a lot of questions. This made her feel important that I was so interested in her for who she is and not only for her physical appearance, etc. Honesty is most important.

Good luck!

Mishenka

[GoodOlBoy]

The translator doesn't want the couple to becomes serious because then the couple might want to be alone and not require a translator.

I had this happen to me years ago. The translator didn't want to "lose" business.

You have to be carefull because a translator can put their own "spin" on your words and you don't even know he/she is doing it.

I also had a roomate of a girl that I visited do the same thing (twisted my words). I am still not sure why she did it (jealousy?).

[Gator]

Law,

Been there, tried it. Find someone who speaks enough English to have a serious conversation.

The RW and I had fun together, a lot of fun.  Our interpreter for telephone conversations said we more compatible in personality than any couple she has worked with.  We dated for 12 months and became engaged.

She attempted to learn English, yet progress was slow.  I did not have enough interest to learn Russian considering I never wanted to live there.

We parted soon after our engagement largely because when disputes arose we could not reconcile them.  She would not give me the benefit of the doubt (many betrayals from men in the past).  She was the one who called it off.  I did not want to take the additional year or so to have a serious conversation, so I did not try to change her mind.

Afterwards, she continued to send me short email messages.  My wife wrote a note for me to send her, saying I was taken.  Still she writes, and just sent me a Christmas greeting.

Don't do it.

[GoodOlBoy]

....(many betrayals from men in the past)..... 

Betrayal....R/M?   Typical behavior.

[HiTech]

When I met Alyona, she did not speak any English. We used an interrupter for our fist meetings, but only for 3 letters after that. My interpreter with Alyona was paid by the day so I had no worries of his motives, he was going to get paid the same no matter how many woman I met.

From previous experiences if you are using an interpreter, be very careful on how they are interpreting.  If they are translating in very short word burst, I have found that it is normally your ideas getting across.  But if they want the whole thought before they begin translating , and are friends or know the woman, it is very difficult getting ideas across.

With online translators , and using video conferencing, It is possible to communicate effectively. But with out online every day video conferencing I think it would be very difficult to maintain a relationship.

I was also very lucky that Alyona learns English very quickly.

[Law]

 
THANKS for the fantastic and thoughtful responses!!! This is exactly what I was hoping for.

The ratio of 'for' to 'against' is roughly about 7 (against) to 3 (for). The members who have actually dated non-English speakers provide very, VERY compelling arguments 'against' and I am considering those arguments most carefully. One of the sweetest benefits of this board is the chance to learn from the wisdom, errors and victories of others. I say "THANK YOU" from the bottom of my heart for everyone's contribution to this discussion.


[Quick Aside]- Some have suggested that my race weighs in as an additional challenge, but I see it a little differently. While it's true that the language challenge will be present throughout the entire relationship, acceptance of race would work itself out over a much shorter period of time.

I also wonder if a woman who doesn't know English would consider dating outside of her race more easily than someone who does. IF that is the case could it be said that the 'challenge' of race might be overcome more easily, since the couple already has to work so hard to stay together? :brightidea:

I'm still not convinced that race is as big of a challenge as some would suggest. In my mind race falls into a similar category of dating preferences as body type, hair color or social status. The jury is still out on this one for me, but PLEASE continue with the discussion of ENGLISH or NON-ENGLISH speakers...for THAT is the question.
[/Quick Aside]

In most cases the steep challenge of language seems to pull the relationship apart. But in the case of the most stubbornly committed couples that challenge (seems to) help cement them together...

GOOD STUFF!! PLEASE keep it coming!


-L

[vwrw]

A while ago there was an advertisement on Russian TV (I do not remember what the ad was promoting) where a young woman was asked whether she prefers brunet men or blond men. She answered that she preferred a man with a well developed intellect.

I believe there are many women in FSU who would prefer a smart black guy as you are to a white mediocrity.   The problem is that there is no way for such a woman to perceive your intellectual virtues, good manners in communication and the fact that you are more worthy of admiration than majority of those men available on international-dating-market unless she understands English well. There is no way because:
- a good-written letter and a bad-written letter translated through electronic translator will equally seem to woman as a delirium of a sick person. 
- a translation by a person helps but not significantly because charm of well-spoken man is perceived by the translator but not by the woman to whom it was addressed.
- opinion of translating person that a given man has an above average intellect is not convictive.

Law, you are charming enough to make a woman blind to color of your skin by illumination of your brain.    Do NOT deprive yourself the magnetism  by choosing a woman who will not able perceive your strongest aspects. And remember that learning other language is a long process…much longer than a marriage based on curiosity and physical attraction is able to last.