Violence against journalists

[ScottinCrimea]

Hey, I play gold naked in the suburban dessert... but for some reason my former foursome has vanished and took the whipped cream and cherries with them... hmmmm  ... it's a lonely life here with club in hand...  :evil:  :evil:

Miniature golf? 

[Daveman]

Miniature golf? 

LOL!!!!!!!!!  now that was excellent...

[Sculpto]

I wish you the best and that everything goes well.

Both of you have invested much in each other.  I am not sure how a backup plan helps if it is anything other than the telephone number of an agency.

Both of you seem a bit volatile, so this trip could experience some volatile moments.  Even though you have a backup plan, do not use it unless you believe the relationship is dead forever.  In other words, stay committed.  Give it your all.  And if you walk away, do it because you want to start over and you want her to sart over too.  Do not walk away because you think this will make her reach out for you (as she did when you stopped corresponding). 

Good advice Gator..

backup plan.. to clarify.. I am not going there ready to run at the first sign of any weirdness.. I am fully committed and hope all goes well.. however, should things take a turn for the worst and the relationship ends I do not want to end up stuck and alone in a boring apartment.. I have maintained correspondence with some other friends, all people involved in the arts in one way or another through vkontakt, facebook and others.. I would not be trying to start up some new relationship if my current one fails.. just having some company for the remaining time I am in Moscow.

That said.. I highly doubt that will be needed.  Based on the communication the last couple of weeks since I last posted she is getting her life back in order and is very excited about the time we will have together. 

[Sculpto]

Thank G-d somebody else is in some doubts about the offered script And knowing something about Tomsk scene in general - I'm even in more doubts. BTW I looked through local newspapers and sites and haven't seen anything even remotely like these attacks on journalists, ot the paper editor leaving town because of threats, etc.

Some other place, more prominent newspaper people like Politkovskaya, etc. - and in the 90ies, too... maybe. But there and now, together with the blank unwillingness to see her boyfriend in Tomsk, etc., etc. - and then astonishing proposal to get married rather than going the K1 route... I dunno, but...

Moody is a mild word to describe what Sculprto referred to. She is flying off the handle for no discernible reason at all - or for pretty inconvincing reasons. I've read similar things about AM told by new Russian brides - never vice versa. Even if (and it's a big IF) the circumstances are really as depicted by her - or perceived by her, she shows no interest in and tolerance of her supposedly partner for life. And her refusal to let him come to Tomsk - one of the more cultured Russian cities, - puts up a big red flag to me.

I appreciate your concern about her Father and by going so far as to check newspapers for information regarding what happened.  But, thanks but no thanks...

The situation with her Father has been consistent since it first came up last summer.  She hasn't asked me to pay for his medical bills.  She is not using his illness to gain sympathy.  In fact, his illness is interfering in our plans/timelines because she wants to spend as much time with him as possible before he dies.  And for other confirmation about the reality of this illness we did discuss this situation when I was with her in Moscow when her friends, who speak English, were around.  Her friends were all aware of the situation.  So, you can stop thinking she is trying to pull an illness scam.. there isn't one.

As far as her not wanting me to come to Tomsk, while her father is still alive.. I understand and respect it.  We just discussed it the other day when she had mentioned she did not tell her father about me and then asked why I didn't respond.  I was thinking about what she had said in contrast to the fact that I also have a very sick father.. my Dad has Alzheimers and is Diabetic.. and the truth is I will never subject my GF, possible future wife, to the rantings and out of control comments my father makes.  So, I responded about my father.. I had never spoken to her about him before.. when she asked I just told her we weren't close.. but this time I told her the whole story.  She completely understood why I would not want her to meet him.  Why should I feel any differently about not meeting her father and not causing the poor man any additional distress in his last days?  Its simply respect for the dying.

As to the attack... are you really so naive to think that every political or social attack on a journalist is actually reported?  Come on now.. in a country where hate crimes against minorities go unpunished what protection does a journalist have?  She knows what her situation is, I do not.  I am not about to push her on that.  What I know is someone who was consistent in her behavior for a long time had a radical change.  Now that her brain feels better she has changed back to her old self.  Good enough for me. On top of that.. her Father was a cop.. when he was well he was in fact able to protect her.. but that protection is probably now not viable and I suspect she is very aware of that.  She chose not to make waves by reporting the situation, but, I do know in the other situations where she had been attacked, before i met her, she tells the stories with the pride of someone who has deep convictions about what she does and is willing to suffer the consequences if her reportage gets her in trouble with bad people.  For me this strength of conviction, commitment to exposing corruption, (which from what I have been able to discover with the help of google is rather an endemic situation in the city of Tomsk) and so on just attracts me to her that much more. 

Frankly it is a lot easier for me if I am meeting with her in Moscow anyway.  The additional cost and time to go all the way to Tomsk gets me no real benefit, especially this time of year.  If it was summer it might be a slightly different story, but, trudging around in -15c with 6 hours of daylight is not my idea of a pleasant trip.  At least in Moscow the apartment is 3 minutes from the metro and I do not need her help to get around if I have time to myself.  And even more importantly, if the relationship should happen to fail, I at least can make it so I am not alone for the remaining time, where if I was stuck in Tomsk with a week to go, I would be bugging Possum to come out of his possum pocket to drink beers and complain about stupid women the world over. 

Honestly I think you just want to stir crap up.  And if so.. I give you credit for that since I am a crap stirrer myself...

[Daveman]

Good advice Gator..

backup plan.. to clarify.. I am not going there ready to run at the first sign of any weirdness.. I am fully committed and hope all goes well.. however, should things take a turn for the worst and the relationship ends I do not want to end up stuck and alone in a boring apartment.. I have maintained correspondence with some other friends, all people involved in the arts in one way or another through vkontakt, facebook and others.. I would not be trying to start up some new relationship if my current one fails.. just having some company for the remaining time I am in Moscow.

That said.. I highly doubt that will be needed.  Based on the communication the last couple of weeks since I last posted she is getting her life back in order and is very excited about the time we will have together. 

I agree, Gator's advice is sound.  I will only comment that although you are committed, and want this to work out, and of course will give it your best shot -- don't rationalize and make excuses for truly off the wall or bad behavior.  These relationships all have a touch of weirdness -- at least all of mine have had a degree of weirdness but only you can determine what is the acceptable level of bizarreness.  

That emotional rationalization, as we all know but all too often overlook, amounts to writing the schedule of the train wreck in invisible ink.  You won't know when it's coming, but it will assuredly come, right on schedule.  If you catch yourself making excuses for her in your mind, you probably have the answer -- take a different train.  

Surely you know all of this but just a friendly reminder.  Have a safe trip, a wonderful visit, and best of luck.  Devoted not Dumb.

Dave

[Sculpto]

Good thinking, Sculpto. Some things you shouldn't force.
 

Not at all.  This is what we normally do on weekends as a family. Fire also helps keeping ourselves warm, after all its -20 outside. 

I finally did ask her why she wanted to get married in Moscow.. her reply.. "if we married in USA no one I will have there.. only you.. I want my friends can come and celebrate too"

And, as a matter of fact.. it turns out there are a number of fire dance troupes in Russia and Ukraine.  One just needs to know where to look... Kazantip for example and at Winzavod Art Center in Moscow.... but I somehow doubt anyone here would go there any sooner than they might go to Burning Man here in the USA.

[Sculpto]

DAve.. thanks for the comments.  I have been around the block more than a few times and know what my tolerance level is, so, if she crosses the line there won't be any hesitation on my part. 

One thing I know about myself is that I once brought a woman from france over.  I made some mistakes with her and stayed in the relationship much longer than I should have.  I won't repeat, I don't have time for it.

I very good old art school friend who now lives just outside Denali offered me his house for the summer at no cost.  If this relationship doesn't work out I will spend the summer in Alaska making art and then head to Mexico for the winter.

[mendeleyev]

Sculpto, just read quickly thru the thread and like some of the others have seen/heard nothing on such a case.  The most "quiet suppression" of journalists outside of the 2 capitals is up in the Irkutsk area where for several years local journalists have led the ongoing battles in regards to new pipelines along Lake Baikal.

On January 13, 2009, Russia for the 18th time marked the Russian Press Day but that often means very little.

Neither the Center for Journalism in Extreme Situations (Russia office) nor The Moscow Union of Journalists have any word of a late December problem in Tomsk so I don't know what to tell you. These are organizations which appear to have no fear, well at least the first mentioned organization, and I believe they'd be forthright about an issue.

I skimmed thru a lot and read where she didn't want you to visit while her father was alive?  One of my greatest regrets is never having the opportunity to meet the fine man who was the father of my wife.  She without hesitation would give anything for the chance for us to meet, but alas he died when she was a very young teen. Many an early spring and late autumn I've attended to his gravesite as a way to quietly pay my respects to a remarkable person.

As a further aside, most kids have graduated around age 16 from 11th grade and then it's on to Univ or military, etc.  You mentioned that she is a journalist and going to University?  That is an unusual arrangement there.  It also makes her quite young, and no matter your age, are you certain that she is ready to make decisions are large as marriage, especially one where she moves 10,000 miles from everyone/everything she's ever known?

[Sculpto]

Mendeleyev...
Thanks for your reasoned response.  I know you have a lot more experience than anyone else in this particular field so your comments are clearly not intended to be some sort of provocation.

Yes, she is a Uni student.. therefore young in years.  However, she has been working for a long time.  I am pretty sure I can confide in you so I am going to send you soemthing in PM and perhaps you can help me sort out some answers I have been looking for on my own.

I can not answer or explain the whole thing with her Father.  Well.. at least not in public, so, again I will reply in PM.

As far as her ability to make a life decision.. wow.. yeah.. she can do it.  No problem there. 

[Wienerin]

SCULPTO, I don't know why you take anything I sday like this. I'm not kicking up dust or whatever. You started yourself on some unexplicable behaviour of your gilfriend. I just analyzed what you said - from the point of my experience and uinderstanding.

I never said anything (sorry if my words could be interpreted like this) about any bills or any other scams. I know next to nothing about this - never having been on the MOB scene.

Again, just from my experience and knowledge and common-sense of a woman from Russia. The whole story doesn't hang together. Sorry.

A very young woman cannot be a long-time journalist, cannot be given so sensitive political investigative assignments as to become dangerous. Impossible.

With all the risks for a honest reporting journalist in Russia - you friend is neither of the caliber, nor in a place where her dangers copuld be real. Of course, shit happens, and if she ran a small article about how some shady character in a farmers market cheats and intimidates poor grannies selling table greens - she could be beaten... if he were a complete idiot - with her Dad a cop - even on a sick leave. He has friends, even in Russia cops stand for their own, and the families are off limits. And even a very humble cop from the beat, where she allegedly uncovered some corruption, can make life miserable for a thug. And will. .

If she were beaten that severely - she'd have had to go to ER< where they by law were obliged to call a cop. Russia is a very bad place as to law and order, but in her circumstances - the police would work. Oh, yes, they would.

I concede that she doesn't want to get you to see her Dad - for whatever valid reasons, I wouldn't go into that. But why your going to Tomsk would necessitate for your to meet him? I told you, it's a big city, the most rich in culture in Siberia, and if she's determined to be married - and with her friends present, Moscow sounds a pretty weird choice. And you HAVE to see her home town, her environment - if not her Dad.

And why get married now at all? If she doesn't want you even to see her city, and wouldn't leave until her father passes away?

Frankly, if somebody have spun such a tale to me - I wouldn't believe it. Be however angry with me you want - it's no skin off my nose, by something doesn't jibe in her story. There're - even if those separate piece are true, - loose ends everywhere ... and yes, I'm not even sure you CAN get married in Moscow. None of you is a resident there.

[Sculpto]

Wienerin.. there are details that I am not able to discuss.  Maybe part of the problem is I am venting here but unable to include all the details.  It is possible it is unfair on my part for even bringing any of this up because there are parts of the story I can't/don't want to reveal in a public forum.  If that has caused confusion I apologize.

With that said...

Yes, you are right, not every single part of the story adds up.  There are components I don't like and wish I had better explanations for.  But I don't and I am not likely to get them.  Maybe there is some other history in Tomsk she doesn't want me to know about.  Frankly when I invited her to join facebook I was a tiny bit worried that some x Gf of mine, who is in my friends list, or a friend of a different x, also on my friends list, might create some problem, maybe revealing something out of my past that I would prefer she not know about.  But, that hasn't happened and I doubt it will. 

The positives outweight the negatives.  She isn't asking anything of me that could be considered in the realm of a scam, she doesn't have a strong desire to leave Russia and yet she says she loves me and will go with me where I want because she wants to be with me and would prefer to live in Mexico over the USA because its what I want for my future.  So, if she has some history, or other reason she is for now keeping me out of Tomsk it isn't really a big deal to me.  Her "mystery" is consistent enough over a sustained period of time for me to not really have any compelling reason to give her anything but the benefit of the doubt.  Besides, when she bragged about having her nose busted by thugs after she photographed contractors burning wooden houses and showed me her crooked nose there was no denying her nose had been broken.  In the situation of last December I do not know what the circumstances were, and, in my anger I over-reacted and said I could kill someone who hurt her I gave her a pretty good reason to not want me in Tomsk.  If I am "lucky" when I am with her next month she will tell me what actually happened.

And as far as getting married in Moscow... and having some sort of celebration.. she has friends there, whom I have met, and the two girls from Tomsk who would come are also getting the chance to visit Moscow.  No one is asking me to pay for anything like train tickets or accomodations for friends.. her idea of a celebration is NOT going to an expensive pestopah but cooking a bunch of food and getting some bottles of champagne and celebrating at home.    Probably what I expect will actually happen is something we can term an engagement party as I believe the logistics of getting married on a two week trip in the middle of winter are unlikely to be possible.

As far as the anti corruption issues in Tomsk.. I was able to find lots of resources with just a little bit of google... try it.. "anti corruption tomsk".  There is certainly a lot going on in this area of investigation and if someone were involved with student activism it would not be a big stretch to consider someone might poke their noses in places that could cause problems yet which never end up on the radar of more mainstream news media.  Back in my college days I worked on the college radio station and there was a tradition of doing provocative investigative reporting that sometimes led to small bits of trouble for individuals but never became anything in the larger public eye.  Even in my own experience I once did some video work on the beef industry and when I obtained footage of how cattle are slaughtered got pushed around by security at the stockyards.. no noses were broken but they could have been and if they had I certainly would not have gotten the popo involved because I was trespassing... my point is.. you are quick to jump to a negative conclusion and say it is impossible...

[Sculpto]

ok, first in response to Scotts post from the other thread... quote in bold

"GOB is perhaps extreme about how he expresses his opinions, but his points on this matter deserve to be considered.  I understand your feelings of insult as your GF is in the low 20's and many here have expressed their concerns regarding this.  You have chosen to ignore the opinions of those more experienced than you and have stubbornly clung to the rationalizations that your situation, your woman and you are "unique".  The reality is that the age and generational difference DO make a difference, whether you choose to see this or not.

I do see it, but, I see it differently than you do.  When I am with her there is no sense of any age difference.  Simply a very smart young woman with a mountain of pressure that she has placed on herself and that has been dumped on her.  I think about American women her age and how they would deal with the same issues and I admire my GF even more for her ability to transcend her problems, even if she has vented on me sometimes.  BTW.. I finally told her that she had to stop doing that because it was verging on abuse.  That seems to have worked and she has actually opened up a lot and is talking to me in detail about specifics rather than dumping drama.

I have considered your posts and I am going to be very straightforward about my opinions.  I have thought long and hard about whether I should express my opinion or not. Whether you choose to consider this as only my opinion or whether it leads to some introspection is entirely up to you.

I understand that your lifestyle is "unique' to say the least.  I also understand that you have searched long and hard for a woman who would accept this lifestyle. I understand that the only women who would consider this lifestyle are those who are still searching for what they want in regards to the ultimate lifestyle that they will lead and I understand that such a woman will be in her early 20's. You have avoided stating her age which suggests that you understand that this is a valid issue and you choose to avoid discussion about this. I understand that you have found such a woman who, by your posts, seems to be a practical woman but who is open to an alternative lifestyle. I am not sure about what she really understands about the life style that she will be expected to lead but I see that she feels that you understand about her lifestyle and needs and are willing to accept whatever she says on this. From this point it devolves to conjecture based on my life experience, which you can consider or choose to ignore.  You are willing to overlook questional behavior and rationalize questionable behavior on her part because you fear that you will have difficulty finding anyone who would accept your lifestyle as much as she seems to have.  The real issue is that your alternative lifestyle is the most important thing to you and dictates who you choose to be involved with.  She, in turn, is searching (subconsciously) for someone who will accept her mood swings and not run away.  Her father has been the one stable force in her life.  Now that he is dying, she is desperate to find something else and she is testing you to see if you can be that.  So far you have passed the tests, but more are to come, expecially if he dies.  The fact that she doesn't want you to visit her home town suggests that she still doesn't see you as the ultimate stabilizing force.

Scott, the only part you are not right about is where you state that I am in fear.  I am VERY accustomed to being alone, because I am not alone.  I have a lot of friends, and if I need sex it is readily available.  I have made choices to not participate in the polyamorous lifestyle many of my friends lead, but, it is right there in front of me if I want it.  The reason I am stubborn about sticking with this GF is because of who she is, her intelligence, her demonstrated care when i am with her, her integrity and a lot of other things.  That is what has been hard to find and worth fighting for.  How many Russian girls are there that are not only not materialistic but place love, understanding and creativity over security and comfort?  I am not Brad Pitt, and I am not a millionaire, but, I have a lot of charm and know how to listen and give the kind fo support that is needed by the woman I have chosen.  That is why she is choosing to give a man considerably older than her that lives ina another country the chance to not only win her heart but to build a life together.  She has plenty of other options available to her, but, she has chosen me.  If there was something devious involved I have no idea what the angle could be as she was never looking to leave Russia and is still only willing to do so because she, in her own words, loves me and wants to be wherever I am.

This next visit will perhaps resolve the issues about your ability to resolve her current emotional needs, but her ultimate willingness to allow you to assume the role of her father and her ability to accept your alternative lifestyle are issues that are still outstanding."

Scott, you might be right in nearly everything you have said.  Yes, it is true, I am not willing to get into a discussion about MY choice to pursue a young woman.  What I will say is I have dated much yonger women locally and I am comfortable with the negatives because in my situation the positives far outweigh the negatives.  That is my decision and those that might judge me should rather look in the mirror and remember that it is only God that has the right to judge.  I think Christian scripture is quite explicit on this issue.  Turn the other cheek is one of the true beauties of Christian doctrine and as a Jew, where the doctrine says eye for an eye, I have allowed myself to evolve beyond the cultural restricitions that are very difficult for most people to break.

As far as so called alternative lifestyles... all that is subjective.  While my lifestyle might appear as strange or radical or whatever to many here, in fact, in the world i live in I am rather mild.  I have a good job.. I go to my job every day.. and I limit my excesses to times when they are appropriate.  I know a lot of people who live constantly on the edge, (meaning the do not have regular jobs, they do a lot of drugs and drink, they have multiple sex partners, sometimes at the same time and the somehow bumble along from one crisis to the next yet never giving up the party) and while I admire them for having the moxie to live in sucha way, it is no longer a way of life I am comfortable with.  I laugh when I am accused of being on some "lunatic fringe" politically because those who make such accusations actually have absolutely no idea what the truly far left is like.  Again, as in certain lifestyle choices while i may appear to be radical to some here, and the same for political ideas I have expressed, the reality is my views are really vanilla in comparison to many people I know. 

So, since i last posted there have been some new developments.

A couple of days ago during a yahoo chat I was informed that her Father has taken another turn for the worse.  It has gotten so bad that his brother has arrived from near Moscow and the whole family is bracing for his imminent death.  Congruent with that situation she put me on notice that her ability to meet me in Moscow may be compromised.

Naturally i was very upset by this turn of events and I suggested, practically demanded, that I simply go to Tomsk to be with her.  The suggestion was met with an uncompromising denial of permission.  I got upset and finally demanded a full explanation.  This is what i was told.

"Things different here.  You not understand my Father is Armenian and for Armenian the father must chose the husband.  If you arrive now in Tomsk my family will be very angry with me.  It will be big disgrace for me to my family for you to arrive here now when Father is dying."

When I first heard this I was shocked and not immediately ready to buy into this.  I spent the day searching the internet for information regarding Armenian wedding and marriage rituals and traditions.  What I have found, via wedding specific sites and a rather large Armenian forum absolutely confirms what she said.  In addition, today, I called an old client who happens to be Armenian and asked his advice.  he told me what she says is absolutely true.  He explained if the Father was well he might be willing to accept me, even though I am not Armenian and considerably older than her, based on my behavior and demonstrated virtue as a man, but, because he is not well I am not welcome to visit the family and if I did arrvie there I would not only disgrace her in the eyes of the family but I would be putting my self at risk as so called honor killing is still a reality int he Armenian world.

What I now realize is my young lady who is rather emancipated educationally and in her fledgling career is also trapped by familial cultural obligations.  Coming from a Jewish background I can completely understand her siutation and the difficult choices she must deal with.  For myself it wasn't until I reached my 30's that I was even comfortable dating non Jewish women and could take them seriously.  It took another ten years after that for my parents to stop pressuring me.  So, I get it completely.  She wants to be modern, but, she loves and respects her Father.  I am not going to disrespect her, or her culture, by forcing the issue.

So, I have decided to let it rest.  The Moscow trip is not cancelled or postponed at this point.  I can change the ticket if I must, but, hopefully that will not happen.  The deadline is next Friday.

[Misha]

What I will say is I have dated much yonger women locally and I am comfortable with the negatives because in my situation the positives far outweigh the negatives. 

Keep in mind that dating and marrying are two distinct things.

[Sculpto]

I know.  Well, I just got a lecture from her about "dirty americans".  She said..

"All Russian women in America say Americans dirty"

then she told me if she doesn't like how I clean I will pay her to clean the house.

She is young in years my friends.. and maybe is immature about dealing with problems.. but.. this woman is no-bodies fool and she knows what she wants.  She is awesome!

[Misha]

then she told me if she doesn't like how I clean I will pay her to clean the house.

She is young in years my friends.. and maybe is immature about dealing with problems.. but.. this woman is no-bodies fool and she knows what she wants.  She is awesome!

I swear, she could announce to you that she is a serial killer, and you would likely say that was awesome 

My wife and I split the work involved with cleaning the house and negotiated acceptable levels of cleanliness. I don't pay her, she doesn't pay me. You know, the way adults do things in a mature relationship  :evil:

[Sculpto]

Misha.. sense of humor please.. I should have put the "sarcasm" sign up next to the "pay" for cleaning.  She told me that after I told her I would rather pay for a house cleaner than spend my valuable time scrubbing floors.

[ScottinCrimea]

Sculpto, I'm going to break this down to try to respond to each issue separately.

Scott, you might be right in nearly everything you have said.  Yes, it is true, I am not willing to get into a discussion about MY choice to pursue a young woman.  What I will say is I have dated much yonger women locally and I am comfortable with the negatives because in my situation the positives far outweigh the negatives. 

It is quite obvious that you are not comfortable with her age despite your claims otherwise because you hem and haw about it and even when asked directly you dodge the question.  Why can't you just say, for example, "She is 21 years old."?  Are you afraid to admit it to yourself or just afraid to admit it to us?  You need to do some introspection to evaluate why you are uncomfortable about this.

That is my decision and those that might judge me should rather look in the mirror and remember that it is only God that has the right to judge.  I think Christian scripture is quite explicit on this issue.  Turn the other cheek is one of the true beauties of Christian doctrine and as a Jew, where the doctrine says eye for an eye, I have allowed myself to evolve beyond the cultural restricitions that are very difficult for most people to break.

I agree, only God knows all and therefore is the only one who can make an informed judgement, but one can weigh the actions of others and arrive at conclusions without necessarily judging them. As one example, I may like a person very much, but if every time he visits my home he steals something, sound judgement suggests I don't invite him into my home.  I can certainly use my experience and intellect to observe a certain person or their course of action and draw conclusions, and this in no way implies judgement of the indiviidual as being good or bad, but rather his actions as being appropriate or inappropriate.

After witnessing your judgements of and attacks on those who disagreed with your opinion regarding posting photos here, I seriously question your belief that you have evolved beyond the level of judgement of others and personal attacks against those who don't share the same beliefs.  I also refer back to your attacks against Mormons as an example of your failure to evolve in the manner that you claim.  You basically painted many of my relatives with a negative brush having never met one of them.

As far as so called alternative lifestyles... all that is subjective.  While my lifestyle might appear as strange or radical or whatever to many here, in fact, in the world i live in I am rather mild.  I have a good job.. I go to my job every day.. and I limit my excesses to times when they are appropriate.  I know a lot of people who live constantly on the edge, (meaning the do not have regular jobs, they do a lot of drugs and drink, they have multiple sex partners, sometimes at the same time and the somehow bumble along from one crisis to the next yet never giving up the party) and while I admire them for having the moxie to live in sucha way, it is no longer a way of life I am comfortable with.  I laugh when I am accused of being on some "lunatic fringe" politically because those who make such accusations actually have absolutely no idea what the truly far left is like.  Again, as in certain lifestyle choices while i may appear to be radical to some here, and the same for political ideas I have expressed, the reality is my views are really vanilla in comparison to many people I know.

This is a really screwed up view. To use an analogy, not intended to offend short people, this is equivalent to you being 4 feet tall and saying, 'Hey, I associate with people who are 3 feet tall, so I'm not really short."  Those who you suggest are truly far left are really beyond that, more on the lunatic fringe.  It's like Ted Bundy basing his relative sanity on Jeffery Dahmer. (again, no offense intended, just an analogy).

Indeed, this is subjective, and 

So, since i last posted there have been some new developments.

A couple of days ago during a yahoo chat I was informed that her Father has taken another turn for the worse.  It has gotten so bad that his brother has arrived from near Moscow and the whole family is bracing for his imminent death.  Congruent with that situation she put me on notice that her ability to meet me in Moscow may be compromised.

Naturally i was very upset by this turn of events and I suggested, practically demanded, that I simply go to Tomsk to be with her.  The suggestion was met with an uncompromising denial of permission.  I got upset and finally demanded a full explanation.  This is what i was told.

"Things different here.  You not understand my Father is Armenian and for Armenian the father must chose the husband.  If you arrive now in Tomsk my family will be very angry with me.  It will be big disgrace for me to my family for you to arrive here now when Father is dying."

When I first heard this I was shocked and not immediately ready to buy into this.  I spent the day searching the internet for information regarding Armenian wedding and marriage rituals and traditions.  What I have found, via wedding specific sites and a rather large Armenian forum absolutely confirms what she said.  In addition, today, I called an old client who happens to be Armenian and asked his advice.  he told me what she says is absolutely true.  He explained if the Father was well he might be willing to accept me, even though I am not Armenian and considerably older than her, based on my behavior and demonstrated virtue as a man, but, because he is not well I am not welcome to visit the family and if I did arrvie there I would not only disgrace her in the eyes of the family but I would be putting my self at risk as so called honor killing is still a reality int he Armenian world.

[There is no reason why her father would even need to be aware that you exist or are in Tomsk. You could be across town and available to provide support for her without his even being aware of it.  I still suspect that there is more to her desire that you stay away from Tomsk than just the issue with her father.  She has a home base and she doesn't want you anywhere near it.

The Armenian tradition is not that the father choses the husband, but that he approves of the husband.  Arranged marriages are not the current trend with them.  My wife's first husband was Armenian, so I'm not without some experience in this. I think her concern is not so much that you are American, but that you are "considerably older than her", and the lifestyle that you represent.  By forbidding you to come to Tomsk while he was still relatively healthy, she blew the chance for you to meet him and prove to him that you are a worthy husband.

Given that she feels bound by some Armenian traditions, have you undertaken a full study of the other Armenian traditions?  Many of them are in direct conflict with you specifically and with the lifestyle that you expect her to accept and to engage in.  You may run into some serious conflicts with her as she is forced to choose between the traditions that she has been raised with and the new lifestyle that she must accept for you both to be compatible.  Whether you like it or not, her father has established the basic ideals upon which she will build her life.  Much of what happens with you both will, for her, be a decision to choose between you and her father, especially at her young age, when she is still more a product of her parents' belief system than of her own. Have you considered the cultural obligations thoroughly?/b]

What I now realize is my young lady who is rather emancipated educationally and in her fledgling career is also trapped by familial cultural obligations.  Coming from a Jewish background I can completely understand her siutation and the difficult choices she must deal with.  For myself it wasn't until I reached my 30's that I was even comfortable dating non Jewish women and could take them seriously.  It took another ten years after that for my parents to stop pressuring me.  So, I get it completely.  She wants to be modern, but, she loves and respects her Father.  I am not going to disrespect her, or her culture, by forcing the issue.

There is no need to force the issue.  I don't recall, are her mother and siblings aware of your presence?

So, I have decided to let it rest.  The Moscow trip is not cancelled or postponed at this point.  I can change the ticket if I must, but, hopefully that will not happen.  The deadline is next Friday.

Sculpto, I recognize that you and I have vastly different view on many things, but that in no way affects be opinions of you as a person.  I think that we could sit down together and really enjoy each other's company.  My intent here is not to denigrate you as a person, but to raise valid questions regarding your thought processes.  There is nothing I wish more than that you find happiness with someone, but I feel personally obligated to question some of your actions and ideas because they go contrary to my own personal experiences.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, I recognize that you and I have vastly different view on many things, but that in no way affects be opinions of you as a person.  I think that we could sit down together and really enjoy each other's company.  My intent here is not to denigrate you as a person, but to raise valid questions regarding your thought processes.  There is nothing I wish more than that you find happiness with someone, but I feel personally obligated to question some of your actions and ideas because they go contrary to my own personal experiences.

Thanks Scott.  You know, to me one of the greatest beauties in the world is that it is possible to reach the same destination by a practically infinite selection of pathways. 

And to be honest, some fo the questioning that has occured here HAS pushed me to force particular subjects with "A".  The conversation you quoted, regarding arriving in Tomsk is the most recent.  I put my foot down, told her she needed to be more specific and explain herself.  I know it was hard for her, she doesn't like spelling everything out.  She thinks it is a sign of "American dullness" when I do not understand (read her mind) everything that is going on.  I also threw in a little scare tactic and reminded her that when she arrives here there are going to be tons of things she is not going to understand and would she rather I let her guess at them or prefer that I explain things to her.  There was a long pause and then she started talking and frankly once the door was opened she didn't shut up for a while.  I consider that a very big step int he right direction for her.

I think she was also a bit surprised when I told her I had researched Armenian traditions and then questioned her about a whole list of things.  Armenian Americans and Armenian Russians and Armenian Armenians have a "practically infinite selection" of variations on a theme.  Awesome!  I can't wait to see the evolution.  I am also very curious how she will react to her first Passover dinner, which is the only Jewish tradition I still keep in anything resembling a devout way.  My Mother would "kill" me if I let that go.  Anyway, I look forward to my first Chrismaka with "A".  We should start the party on the Day of Guadalupe, December 12, which I celebrate and end it on Chinese New Year, shoot, might as well keep it going until Valentines Day.. well.. for that matter till March 8.. AWESOME!

[Misha]

Misha.. sense of humor please.. I should have put the "sarcasm" sign up next to the "pay" for cleaning.  She told me that after I told her I would rather pay for a house cleaner than spend my valuable time scrubbing floors.

As they say, in every joke there is a grain of truth. A person's "humor" can be a pretty good indication in many cases as to what they are truly thinking  :evil:

[Sculpto]

As they say, in every joke there is a grain of truth. A person's "humor" can be a pretty good indication in many cases as to what they are truly thinking  :evil:

You know.. we have never discussed finances after her arrival.  At this point she speaks English but not nearly well enough to get a journalism job.  There are three Russian language papers in the Bay Area.. maybe she can get a job there.. but.. I don't see her going to work at McDs.  So, if I have to give her some sort of an "allowance" until she gets settled in she has opened the door for me to be explicit in what I expect her to do.  I had a live in GF once that spent all day in bed.. expected me to give her money, but she didn't clean, cook or do anything else usefull except something I won't go into detail about.  So, I had a live in hooker basically.. who said she loved me.. yawn...

[Misha]

You know.. we have never discussed finances after her arrival. 

There you go, she is broaching with humor what she does not want to do directly.

This from a Russian poem by Aleksandr Urvantsev:

В каждой шутке -
             доля правды.
         В каждой правде -
Доля лжи.
И от этого отрадна -
Жизнь!

My rough translations:

In every joke, a measure (portion) of truth;
In every truth, a measure (portion) of lies,
And out of this comfort -
Life!

[Sculpto]

I am still getting used to the Russian "method" of talking around subjects.  In case you haven't noticed I am pretty much direct and to the point. 

Last week I sold a bathroom remodel to a Russian lady from Ekaterinaburg.  She was very nice, single btw and not bad looking.  Anyway, her method of negotiation absolutely was "talking around" the hard subjects.  Had I not had a taste of this I would have written her off as a flake and not a good sales prospect, but, I was able to "play" her game and in the end I made the sale and also managed to upsell her to a more expensive choice. 

About two weeks ago another of my clients, who is American, but is having his house built by a contractor from Odessa, had me get in contact with this contractor to organize the installation of the cabinets and counters.  Same deal.. the guy talked around everything, was never nearly as specific as I wanted him to be and was frankly starting to make me crazy.  I put my foot down and told this contractor, "this is how it is going to be, here are the specifics, if you have any issues you want to discuss further write them down in detail and send them to me".  Oddly, since he was causing so much discord, I was suprised that he accepted my "rules" without question and everything has gone forward without a hitch, and, he has given me two referals in the time since the meeting.

Not so long ago I felt this "talk around" thing was a sign of passive aggresive behavior.  That is a personality defect I can not deal with and will not accept into my life.  Been there, done that.  But, I have come to realize that in the case of FSU it is far more complex and clearly a part of the culture and not a personality defect that is a sign of a deeper emotional problem.

I am curious if anyone has any insight into the hows and whys of it?

[Misha]

You know.. we have never discussed finances after her arrival. 

I am surprised that you have not discussed this yet. IMHO, better to be pessimistic and expect that she won't find a job to her liking the first couple of years. If she does, great, if she doesn't at least it will fit the what was expected. Always better to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed.

[Sculpto]

Misha,
I do expect I will be supporting her for a while.  But, without her having any sort of understanding of how expenses etc. work here it never seemed to me to make much sense to try and explain everything, insurance, fuels bills, car payment, etc.  I do know she tends to live, as I think a lot of average Russians do, sort of paycheck to paycheck.  When she has money she spends freely and when she doesn't she is super frugal.  I also know that when I was with her in Moscow she was exceptionally carefull with my money.  She didn't want to eat out, "it waste money" nor would she get in a taxi for the same reason and refused to let me buy her an extra pair of stockings when she got a small tear in her only pair, "they ok, it small and can not to see". 

As an example of the futility of discussing finances.. we did discuss cars and driving.  I had mentioned I would teach her how to drive, and she said why?  "Well, because eventually you will want and need a car so you can get around and I do not have to drive you everywhere."  She replied.. "oh, I don't want car, I will just take metro where I must go".  I laughed and said ok, go for it.  Now, SF has probably the third best public transit in the country, but, I suspect after she takes one ride on the #14 Mission she is going to change her tune pretty fast.  That bus is just as crowded as the Moscow Metro at rush hour and smells a lot worse and is the only bus that gets out of my neighborhood.  Plus, the Bay Area is very spread out so if she wants to get outside of SF its not so simple.  I am also reminded about the UA gal I was hanging out with last summer and some of the comments she made about the behavior of certain ethnic teenagers on the bus.  I would not want my girl to get a negative impression because of the behavior of some ghetto dwelling morons which might hurt friendships I have with responsible people of the same ethnicities.

Though I am not wealthy I do make enough to support two people pretty comfortably so giving a reasonable household allowance with a little extra for the typical female stuff isn't going to be a problem, unless the economy gets a lot worse, then all bets are off, but, I am blessed with a lot of skills so if my current job should evaporate (not likely) I have means to get money. 

[possum]

Not to be judgmental, but rather as a friendly warning - a 21 yo girl is a little girl trapped in a young woman's body.. No matter how smart she is, she's got quite a few years to figure out her own personality, what she really wants out of life, who she wants to associate with, etc., etc..

Sculpto, I know you're dedicated to making this relationship work, and I admire that, but aren't you a little tiny bit concerned about the possible changes she might undergo in the next few years as she matures into a grown woman?.