Are you REALLY looking for a keeper?

[ECOCKS]

All the talk about English language and personal communication these last couple of days got me thinking.  So, here are some thoughts for those of you looking for a serious, long-term relationship. 

Wanting a keeper? If so, I offer you some advice.  To wit:

Preparing for the search.

Be honest and normal.  If you try to pretend to be something you are not, it is going to magnify the pain of the eventual crash.  If this doesn't matter to you, I submit that you are not in this for a long-term relationship, but only to cut some more notches on your gun (YEOW! That HAS to hurt!)

Decide what things are important for you and which are just "nice" if they come along with the right woman.  Are you looking for a trophy to show your friends and family back home?  Or someone who makes you happy to be alive and gives you a reason to aspire to new heights?

Be realistic. You can and will find women 30 years younger than you for dating, but look at yourself in the mirror and ask if you are ready to be 70 when she's 40. Are you looking to live the legend? Are you focused on finding someone younger than your granddaughter?  Grow up. You can stretch the "normal" range here but you should walk down Kreshatyk in the summer time behind a 25 year difference couple and watch the people laughing at them behind their back as they pass by.

Explain clearly what life will be like in your home, neighborhood, city, etc.  Make sure her idea of your home country doesn't come from Pretty Woman, Wall Street, Harry Potter, Chariots of Fire, etc. (Did you ever stop to think that Canadians get off easily on this? Great White North - Hoser! is an easy reputation to live up/down to.)  If she will be expected to work, make sure she understands what she will realistically be able to find a job doing.  Here is that English and educational background thing again.

Scared of scammers? 

Again, be honest and that will clean out a lot of them.  Instead of using your savings account to take them clubbing at Arena City 4 nights a week and to Avalon or Concorde every night (Kyiv high-end, overpriced fashion spots - substitute your city's equivalents) take them to Puzata Hata for lunch and stick with moderate-priced, good quality spots like Blinoff's and Vesuvio's for most meals.  First date spots that make a decent impression but set a moderate pace are Scherezade or Opanas.  Oh, and if you don't like sushi, don't get them started.   

Even better, offer to cook spaghetti for them (careful with the meatballs, lots of vegetarian's here, let them add their own) or fish with steamed vegetables for one or two meals.  You'll set a completely different pace that will convince the scammer you're not going to be a quick score and the best gals will be intrigued at your depth and potential.  BTW, forget finding decent hamburger meat here if you're a tourist plan on using sausage.

Set a reasonable pace. Explain clearly how often you are prepared to come visit and what your view is on the timing of things.  You will knock a lot of them out if you explain that you are expecting to spend a lot of time emailing and phoning, with occasional visits for dating (her) over the next year or two.

Be informed.  When you meet a new girl, laugh as you tell them about the guys who have already warned you about the travel and medical scams.  Make it very clear that this is not going to work on you.  The scammer will move on to easier pickings if you make it clear that you are not a sucker for these ploys.

Hint:  Miss home?  Drop by McDonald's or even Friday's once or twice but be clear that the food isn't quite right and even at home it isn't an everyday thing to go to places like this.  Unless you really ARE a McD's addict, then go there for breakfast or 11:00 lunch (she doesn't eat lunch at 11AM I assure you).

Push on meeting her family sometime after the second or third date.  I could be wrong but I am thinking that not many professional or semi-pro scammers will have their babushka, brother, sister, 3 aunts, 5 cousins and 3 nieces in on the deal.  They get a little embarrassed if they have been serial dating and introducing the guys to the family. If you do get to her apartment or a family gathering be sure to bring along some chocolate and at least a bottle of Inkerman red, vodka if you want to play macho man drinking games with her uncles and brothers (and babushka).  Note: Avoid more than token sampling of Aunt Elena's samogon or pervak for the first time or two.

Buying 3 or 5 flowers will make the point of your thoughts and understanding of customs.  Giving her 11 or 13 (or more) makes her start to eye your wallet and think it is like the horn a' plenty.

Don't hesitate to ask the guys and gals here what their opinion is.  Several will tell you the brutal, but honest truth.

AND, if you really want to test them, announce that you are seriously considering moving to Ukraine, Russia, Belorus, Estonia, etc. for 5 to 6 years so you will really get to know their culture and family!

[ScottinCrimea]

Be honest and normal.  If you try to pretend to be something you are not, it is going to magnify the pain of the eventual crash.  If this doesn't matter to you, I submit that you are not in this for a long-term relationship, but only to cut some more notches on your gun (YEOW! That HAS to hurt!)


AND, if you really want to test them, announce that you are seriously considering moving to Ukraine, Russia, Belorus, Estonia, etc. for 5 to 6 years so you will really get to know their culture and family!

Be honest but lie to test them?

[ECOCKS]

LOL - your choice.  However, I did say IF you want to test them.  I did but I wasn't lying when I said it so why should anyone else.  How important is it to YOU?

[Doll]

LOL - your choice.  However, I did say IF you want to test them.  I did but I wasn't lying when I said it so why should anyone else.  How important is it to YOU?

It is cheap

[topofthekey]

Man o man. Am I really looking for a keeper? I think most of us are. I am. All this talk in ECOCKS words about the english language is an important decision that has nothing to do with not wanting a keeper. I'm not sure you are presenting anything here that I haven't read in several threads prior throughout the archives. Personally if you say you are willing to relocate to another country you better be willing to go through with it. These ladies we are meeting... we generally expect them to move over the ocean to live with us. It would be pretty screwed up to tell them you are willing to live in their country just to test them.

Back to your original question. I'd suspect the vast vast majority of guys here are looking for a keeper. There are some noted exceptions though that you'll notice in a couple recent trip reports and some guy's crazy porn/scammer rant under the scammers forum.

[ECOCKS]

Absolutely Top.  I was just assembling it in one place for a discussion point.  This has nothing to do with the English language question on the Dating a Non-English Speaker thread though.

[topofthekey]

Absolutely Top.  I was just assembling it in one place for a discussion point.  This has nothing to do with the English language question on the Dating a Non-English Speaker thread though.

I'll give you this. Its probably OK to state a hypothetical question because there will be a lot of those as you both get to know each other. That's different than actually making her think you are willing to move to her country though.

[SilverBUllet]

All the talk about English language and personal communication these last couple of days got me thinking.  So, here are some thoughts for those of you looking for a serious, long-term relationship. 

Wanting a keeper? If so, I offer you some advice.  To wit:

Preparing for the search.

Be honest and normal.  If you try to pretend to be something you are not, it is going to magnify the pain of the eventual crash.  If this doesn't matter to you, I submit that you are not in this for a long-term relationship, but only to cut some more notches on your gun (YEOW! That HAS to hurt!) Remember the challenge is to keep one. Tell the truth and not make any promises you can not keep.

Decide what things are important for you and which are just "nice" if they come along with the right woman.  Are you looking for a trophy to show your friends and family back home?  Or someone who makes you happy to be alive and gives you a reason to aspire to new heights? With too much of a "throphy" only, too easy on the eyes, you risk having your lady snatched up by your "friends"[/font]

Be realistic. You can and will find women 30 years younger than you for dating, but look at yourself in the mirror and ask if you are ready to be 70 when she's 40. Are you looking to live the legend? Are you focused on finding someone younger than your granddaughter?  Grow up. You can stretch the "normal" range here but you should walk down Kreshatyk in the summer time behind a 25 year difference couple and watch the people laughing at them behind their back as they pass by. This one not so easy due to biological factor. Many men are looking for a woman to start a family with. Regardless of your own age, if a woman has passed 35 years that is going to be difficult. Also many men prefer someon who has not been married before. Some of the more mature ladies have both prior marriages and children in their portfolio. [/[/b]color]  [/color]

Explain clearly what life will be like in your home, neighborhood, city, etc.  Make sure her idea of your home country doesn't come from Pretty Woman, Wall Street, Harry Potter, Chariots of Fire, etc. (Did you ever stop to think that Canadians get off easily on this? Great White North - Hoser! is an easy reputation to live up/down to.)  If she will be expected to work, make sure she understands what she will realistically be able to find a job doing.  Here is that English and educational background thing again.
Not only a hard sell for Canadians where many live in isolated areas, but also many Americans who live in rual areas, farm communities with a local Wal-Mart and only fast good restaurants closest to the local variant of fine dining. For someon from Kyiv or Odessa, they will integrate better in metropolitian areas (New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, and the like.[/color] [/font]

Scared of scammers? 

Again, be honest and that will clean out a lot of them.  Instead of using your savings account to take them clubbing at Arena City 4 nights a week and to Avalon or Concorde every night (Kyiv high-end, overpriced fashion spots - substitute your city's equivalents) take them to Puzata Hata for lunch and stick with moderate-priced, good quality spots like Blinoff's and Vesuvio's for most meals.  First date spots that make a decent impression but set a moderate pace are Scherezade or Opanas.  Oh, and if you don't like sushi, don't get them started.  Now you are talking, Puzata Hata (hungry again already), http://www.puzatahata.kiev.ua/eng/about/Double Coffee, etc. Go to places were ordinary locals go, not the high end spots. Then you can take your lady shopping afterwards and she will be much happier.  

Even better, offer to cook spaghetti for them (careful with the meatballs, lots of vegetarian's here, let them add their own) or fish with steamed vegetables for one or two meals.  You'll set a completely different pace that will convince the scammer you're not going to be a quick score and the best gals will be intrigued at your depth and potential.  BTW, forget finding decent hamburger meat here if you're a tourist plan on using sausage.

Set a reasonable pace. Explain clearly how often you are prepared to come visit and what your view is on the timing of things.  You will knock a lot of them out if you explain that you are expecting to spend a lot of time emailing and phoning, with occasional visits for dating (her) over the next year or two. The lady are also missing out on other options if you can never make up your mind. Eastern Europena women often expection action and not only talk. To drag on for years might be too long also for serious ladies.
Be informed.  When you meet a new girl, laugh as you tell them about the guys who have already warned you about the travel and medical scams.  Make it very clear that this is not going to work on you.  The scammer will move on to easier pickings if you make it clear that you are not a sucker for these ploys. The ladies may have been warned about American scammers too, so be diplomatic and respectful even too suspected scammers. Then just move on if something is not right. Remmeber local ladies can be critical about a foreigner too.

Hint:  Miss home?  Drop by McDonald's or even Friday's once or twice but be clear that the food isn't quite right and even at home it isn't an everyday thing to go to places like this.  Unless you really ARE a McD's addict, then go there for breakfast or 11:00 lunch (she doesn't eat lunch at 11AM I assure you).

Push on meeting her family sometime after the second or third date.  I could be wrong but I am thinking that not many professional or semi-pro scammers will have their babushka, brother, sister, 3 aunts, 5 cousins and 3 nieces in on the deal.  They get a little embarrassed if they have been serial dating and introducing the guys to the family. If you do get to her apartment or a family gathering be sure to bring along some chocolate and at least a bottle of Inkerman red, vodka if you want to play macho man drinking games with her uncles and brothers (and babushka).  Note: Avoid more than token sampling of Aunt Elena's samogon or pervak for the first time or two. You need to be a little bit more serious yourself also at this stage. A lady would not risk her good reputation by bringing a endless row of Americans home who are just window shopping. Understand why a lady also for this reason can be careful of introducing you to her family. In America it is not nomal to meet the prospective inlaws after just 3 dates, perhaps not so in Ukraine or Russia either?

Buying 3 or 5 flowers will make the point of your thoughts and understanding of customs.  Giving her 11 or 13 (or more) makes her start to eye your wallet and think it is like the horn a' plenty. Flowers are a must

Don't hesitate to ask the guys and gals here what their opinion is.  Several will tell you the brutal, but honest truth. It depends on your friends, if they are only players their advise might be worthless. Also many friends are just looking at the exterior attributes and makes comments based on what they see. Take their opinion for what's worth but listen to yourr heart.

AND, if you really want to test them, announce that you are seriously considering moving to Ukraine, Russia, Belorus, Estonia, etc. for 5 to 6 years so you will really get to know their culture and family! Many will actually say good, they don't mind that but they expect a higher standard of living if you go local. 

Good advice! Someone must be talking from experience since this makes sense. A few comments I have added in red. SB

[SilverBUllet]

Good advice! Someone must be talking from experience since this makes sense. A few comments I have added in red. Also now you are talking, Puzata Hata (hungry again already), http://www.puzatahata.kiev.ua/eng/about/ The serious ladies don't mind just a meeting without the high class dining. Just meeting over a cup of coffee works fine too, Double Coffe comes to mind without breaking the bank. SB

[SilverBUllet]

Wanted to add some first hand experience to the discussion provided by Russian women living abroad.

http://russianwomenabroad.com/page16.html

I married a man with two daughters and lots of debts (I found out about debts just before the wedding) Comment: Nice guy  , did break ECOCKS first recommendation, BE HONEST.

ĞI married a man with two daughters and lots of debts (I found out about debts just before the wedding). It happened 3 years ago.
The hardest part was to get used to be in debt all the time and to get fluent in English. Now everything is pretty good. My husband and I are in love with each other and are able to deal with any difficulties. His patience and love helped us to become even closer to each other. He accepts my culture and traditions and we are able to find compromises. I only miss my parents and my sister, but I see my future in this country. In Russia I had to live in a dorm for 9 years. I had a good job, but it started to get worse there soon after I left. Here I had a problem with job. I had to start from the "bottom" as a nursing aid (I am an electronics engineer). But in half year I already was a clerk and in another half year I became a manager. I was able to prove that my education in Russia is not just a piece of paper. I'm happy that this country gives more opportunities and a more secure future. Now I'm staying at home with my little son Alexander. He brightens everything.
I have many Russian friends, although I don't get to see them as often as I want to. But if something bad will happen, I'm sure they'll support me.
My husband's family accepted me very well. And now even one of my brothers-in-law is thinking to find a wife abroad, because he sees our example.
I think I made the best choice. I'm happy here.ğ
Tatyana

[GoodOlBoy]

I married a man with two daughters and lots of debts (I found out about debts just before the wedding) Comment: Nice guy....  [/color].

Nice wife, to talk about her husband in such a way. 

Look, you live here in America now. American Men are nothing like Russian Men. We do not run from our families like RM do. We take care of our "debts" and children (until 18 and older) like REAL men.

Bottom line, stop whining.  

[Simoni]

Wanted to add some first hand experience to the discussion provided by Russian women living abroad.

http://russianwomenabroad.com/page16.html

ĞI married a man with two daughters and lots of debts (I found out about debts just before the wedding). It happened 3 years ago.
The hardest part was to get used to be in debt all the time and to get fluent in English. Now everything is pretty good. My husband and I are in love with each other and are able to deal with any difficulties. His patience and love helped us to become even closer to each other. He accepts my culture and traditions and we are able to find compromises. I only miss my parents and my sister, but I see my future in this country. In Russia I had to live in a dorm for 9 years. I had a good job, but it started to get worse there soon after I left. Here I had a problem with job. I had to start from the "bottom" as a nursing aid (I am an electronics engineer). But in half year I already was a clerk and in another half year I became a manager. I was able to prove that my education in Russia is not just a piece of paper. I'm happy that this country gives more opportunities and a more secure future. Now I'm staying at home with my little son Alexander. He brightens everything.
I have many Russian friends, although I don't get to see them as often as I want to. But if something bad will happen, I'm sure they'll support me.
My husband's family accepted me very well. And now even one of my brothers-in-law is thinking to find a wife abroad, because he sees our example.
I think I made the best choice. I'm happy here.ğ
Tatyana

Tatyana, in contrast to the rudeness of the poster above, I appreciated your post very much.  Your success story of moving from a clerk to a manager is inspiring, and shows what intelligence and drive can result in.   I think it's great you are now staying home with little Alexander; you'll never regret these years you spend at home with him.  It's great to hear how you have blended in with your husband's family, and that you are happy in the US.   Best wishes,
~Simoni & Marina

[Turboguy]

Tatiana, Like Simoni I did not see your statement in your post as whining at all, and like Simoni I am happy to hear you are happy here and I enjoyed the perspectives you gave in your post.   I do agree with you it is very important to be totally honest with the person you are interested in.   When dating an American woman she can easily see where you live, how you live and who you really are.  With this venture she must take your word for things and if she arrives to a big surprise the results can be devastating whichever way things go. 

Like GoodOlBoy, I do see the possibility that the "Lots of Debts" could be pretty typical of many Americans and perhaps he felt it was normal enough that it was not worth mentioning.   Americans having a hefty mortgage and a fair amount of credit card debt is not unusual.   

There are a lot of differences in the way credit is used in America vs the FSU.  Last night my wife and I were looking though home builders sites in Florida with the possibility that we will have a house built on some property we have there in the not to distant future.  I happened to put some numbers into a mortgage calculator and she seemed a little shocked that there was such a thing as a 30 year mortgage. 

The most common mortgage in America is probably the 30 year variety and historically as the equity gets paid down and the value of the house goes up this becomes the largest part of many peoples net worth.   At the moment things are not quite working that way.   My point is that it is possible that in an American perspective "Lots of debt" may not have been as bad as you perceived it to be but you know that better than I do.

I do agree with you that honesty is critical.  In may case she knew my income was average or a bit above, that I had no personal debt and could afford to do most anything I wanted, and that I lived in a house I bought for $ 3900.00.   She also saw a video walk through of my house so there were no surprises.   I am sure there are women who arrive here with high expectations and in a few days wonder what they have gotten themselves into.

Tatiana, off the topic sometime when you are playing around in the control panel you might want to change your gender selection which currently says you are a male.   I am not saying there could not be a male named Tatiana but if you are your husband may get a bigger surprise than you did with his debts.  I had read your posts in another thread and was trying to understand your perspective and with you being a female it makes more sense.

[ECOCKS]

Might want to refer back and notice that this was posted by Silverbullet, a male, in an effort to provide a RW's first-hand account of her situation.

You are not actually addressing Tatiyana.

[Simoni]

Might want to refer back and notice that this was posted by Silverbullet, a male, in an effort to provide a RW's first-hand account of her situation.

You are not actually addressing Tatiyana.

Silverbullet has the account.  He posted Tatiyana's comments. So those are her words.

I'm sure she would be hurt by the blunt, insensitive response her word's invoked.

[ECOCKS]

Right, but he posted those from a Discussion Board elsewhere here on RWD.  It is my impression that she isn't reading this thread.  Her comment was about the second one down in that discussion blog/comment area which the link takes you to.

[Turboguy]

Thanks for correcting me.

[Simoni]

And me 

But the poster WAS being an a-hole, even if the lady does not read it.

[ECOCKS]

Just clarifying that Tanya didn't seem to be an active participant.  It was unclear to me at first, since SB referred to a first-hand account.  He had the link there so it took me a minute to understand he was copying her comments from another area. Easy misunderstanding by everyone involved.

[SilverBUllet]

Nice wife, to talk about her husband in such a way. 

Look, you live here in America now. American Men are nothing like Russian Men. We do not run from our families like RM do. We take care of our "debts" and children (until 18 and older) like REAL men.

Bottom line, stop whining.  

Please don't generalize too much. Both in Russia and in America there are all kinds of men. Good men, bad men, rich men, poor men, smart men, stupid men, young men, old men.............. It has nothing to do with nationality. Just my 2 cents worth  The husband should have told his wife to be at a much earlier point that he was broke and not spring it on her 5 min before the wedding. Sounds like she is left with trying to make ends meet working hard to support what appears to be a "dead beat" husband with lots of child support required from the prior marriage. Russian women deserve a honest man disclosing everything and not be "entrapped" like this. SB

[SilverBUllet]

Tatyana, in contrast to the rudeness of the poster above, I appreciated your post very much.  Your success story of moving from a clerk to a manager is inspiring, and shows what intelligence and drive can result in.   I think it's great you are now staying home with little Alexander; you'll never regret these years you spend at home with him.  It's great to hear how you have blended in with your husband's family, and that you are happy in the US.   Best wishes,
~Simoni & Marina

Simoni,
I think you misunderstood the posting.  ??? ??? Tatyana did NOT POST HER STORY here. She did that in another site called RUSSIAN WOMEN ABROAD. This is a site where Russian women share their experiences being married to foreign men : http://russianwomenabroad.com/page16.html I copied her story and posted it as a response to this topic since one recommendation made was for men to be HONEST. Tatyana's story starts out with that not until a few days before the marriage her husband told her about all the debt he had which has made life difficult later on for her. The "deadbeat" husband should have had the decency to tell her about that long time before the marriage in my opinion. He was not quite honest with his new wife to be.  SB

[SilverBUllet]

And me 

But the poster WAS being an a-hole, even if the lady does not read it.

Simoni, See my other posting to your question. The lady has posted this on a public web site available for everyone to read. I have properly disclosed the source, so no one should have any problems with this, not even the lady herself.

The point I am making is that by not following another poster's lisiting of many good relationship advices, this lady's own story could be used as an example of what happens when one is not upfront and honest with a wife to be from the very beginning.

I just feel sorry for the lady and hope this will make other men think twice and do a full disclosure prior to marriage and not spring it on 5 minutes before the wedding.  US immigration laws for fiance visas have changed and a full disclosure of financials and criminal background check of the husband to be is now required and is provided to the lady. I call it progress for the female cause. Makes sense?  SB 

[SilverBUllet]

Just clarifying that Tanya didn't seem to be an active participant.  It was unclear to me at first, since SB referred to a first-hand account.  He had the link there so it took me a minute to understand he was copying her comments from another area. Easy misunderstanding by everyone involved.

You got it right. Thanks for clarifying before I got around to respond to the "speed readers"  . It was a "first hand account "not by me, but by the female author who posted her story on a public web site I refereced and duly linked. The new US immigration laws now take care of this "old problem" for Russian and Ukrainian ladies not being told about, for some of their husband's to be, prior criminal records or distressed financial situation. The new law ensures that the lady gets a copy of the criminal background check and get to see the tax returns in advance  SB 

[I/O]

We take care of our "debts" and children (until 18 and older) like REAL men.

Try preaching that up the big end-o-town over the next 12 months or so.

I/O

[Ridersfan]

The new US immigration laws now take care of this "old problem" for Russian and Ukrainian ladies not being told about, for some of their husband's to be, prior criminal records or distressed financial situation. The new law ensures that the lady gets a copy of the criminal background check and get to see the tax returns in advance  SB 

    Being in debt and being financially distressed are not necessarily the same thing. Many men have mortgages and/or car payments. They are in debt but not financially distressed.

   A tax return does little to show the state of someone's finances except to show whether or not they have an income. It does not show the amount of debt an individual has.

   The fact that Tanya's husband was in debt and did not tell her, did not stop her from marrying him so I am guessing it was not as big a deal for her as it seems to be for you.