Learning English for Non-natives

[ECOCKS]

So that everyone can fully express themselves on their opinions of the best method or methods of acquiring the English language with the objective of building up fluency, please indicate which methods you found most effective in your or your spouses language study. Offering up why you think certain methods work better than others, in a civil discussion format, should prove beneficial to all those who are considering this path or progressing along it.

[Simoni]

I will elaborate.

She studied English since age five in Ukraine.  There, she did have EFL (English as a Foreign Language) classes, as well as independent tutors.  She credits watching and listening to Hollywood movies at the local "English Club" as being a big help.  Her English became good enough that she worked as a terp for her Turkish based company.  English by then had become the international business language.

When she came to the US, she did score very high on her TEFOL, good enough to get into just about any university here, and did so.   Her English was strong enough to compete for university grades with her peers-- top US students.

For her, formal EFL classes at home in Ukraine seemed to be the key.

My two cents worth for guys with wife's who need to improve English fluency is immersion.  And lots of language talk (language nuances) with hubby.  Avoid living in Russian speaking communities.  That way, your wife will learn English much more quickly.

[Misha]

methods you found most effective in your or your spouses language study

These are the stages in my wife's learning of English so far:

1. We found on the web listings of the 200 and 1000 most common words in English and she made flash cards. She studied (and still studies them). Not enough to learn on her own, but made it easier for her to recognize words when she was studying English in class;
2. English languages classes sponsored by the Canadian government and free to permanent residents. She studies in relatively small classes English. This was great. They have a good method to help those with zero English learn English.
3. Work: since September, my wife has been working part-time in an after-school program. She has to constantly talk with the children and coworkers. Has helped her immensely with her English.

[mendeleyev]

For those interested, Pimsleur has a "English for native Russian speakers" 4 CD program to get her started.  If you live in a large city, chances are your library is member of a nationwide books on tape (mp3) library which gives you the ability to download Pimsleur products to your computer.  This you can make CD copies to mail to your lady.

[boaterguy]

My wife as Simoni said above has learned more Engish from immersion. She blossemed when she got over being selfconsious and began talking with people. We tried the ESL classes here but she didn't like it at all. It was just to heavily weighted to teaching Spanish speakers and much of the discussion was in Spanish. I have tons of other teaching aides including a program where she can talk and listen to herself. Problem is she just isn't motivated by them. I guess you could say we ae procrastenetors. Was also goon do the flacard thing. Maybe 1 day!

[Tamara]

I have been learning English since 2nd grade and have to say that formal instruction I obtained at school and in the university in Russia was the key.  It provided solid grammar and vocabulary foundation.  Later when I came to live and work in Canada and US, I certainly acquired more colloquial expressions, advanced my fluency and got used to American pronunciation. Again, I believe the key to my success in English was formal instruction.

[possum]

I believe the only way to achieve complete fluency in a language is by immersion.. A degree in English is no guarantee that the person is going to be fluent or even a half-decent speaker.. We have a lot of people here in my hometown and elsewhere in Russia who like to tout their foreign language credentials but at the same time can't put a sentence together in the languages they supposedly mastered in university.. and if they can, it still comes out wrong a lot of the time because they're syntax is off.. I guess my point is, you really have to hear something enough times from a native speaker before you can say it right.. So all of you people with degrees out there, please, feel free to tell me how wrong I am, but know this- in all the years I've been around English speakers in Russia, I've never met one person who could hold a candle to me either in terms of grammar, spelling, or syntax of the English language, and all the formal language training I ever got was in school between grades 6 and 11..

[SANDRO43]

I agree on the importance of formal instruction, however its effectiveness depends much on the teacher(s): grammar, morphology, syntax, etc. can be taught in very dull ways (at least that was so in my experience) as any other subject, and become a huge put-off.

Motivation and interest are great aids. I already recounted how I suddenly jumped to the top of my class at 12 in 7th grade (1st year of English tuition then) simply because I had stumbled upon the original versions of Walt Disney's comics . I started buying and reading them regularly, but not with the aim of improving my English .

As Tamara and Nastya will probably confirm, having to use a foreign language professionally is another way of making rapid progress, though of course not available to all. I became a technical translator by chance: I had quit my job as a research chemist and took it up to mark time, but in the end did it for 6 years before joining IBM, who hired me because of my English (as a Technical Writer, initially).

The above applies more directly to writing skills. For verbal comprehension and speaking skills, IMO there's no substitute to living in the foreign-language environment. My English really took off after I was transferred to IBM UK in London for a whole year.

I just noticed that Possum beat me to it .

[Turboguy]

My wife took the ESL classes for a while but was fluent when she started.   I believe she enjoyed them but I will agree with BoaterGuy it is a mix of ethic backgrounds and heavy on the Spanish.  After attending for a while she told me that she prefered to stay home and study English on her own because she could learn more working on her own than in the classes.   She did make some good friends in the ESL classes however.

I will also agree with Sandro the teacher can make a world of difference.   I took French in H.S. and College and learned a lot in H.S. but my college teacher was terrible.  I think I forgot more French than I learned. 

[Blues Fairy]

... and if they can, it still comes out wrong a lot of the time because they're syntax is off..

Screw the syntax.

[Simoni]

A month after she got here she jumped right into university classes at a highly rated school, surrounded by students with 1400+ SATs.  She was already fluent, but that real life experience and total submersion did wonders.  Her written English had the most progress needed; with all those term papers due, she had a crash course.

[HiTech]

Her written English had the most progress needed;

It appears , your does as well. 


Simoni: Please take this in the fun spirit that it is intended.

[possum]

Screw the syntax.

Leave the syntax alone!. Leave Britney alone!.

[Simoni]

It appears , your does as well. 

Simoni: Please take this in the fun spirit that it is intended.

First draft is the best you will get from me in free forum writing :-)   I have to be paid to do edits    LOL

[boaterguy]

Wow! Perked up this topic! I believe in learning the foundation of a language 1st and then branching out. My wife wants to learn but doesn't want to invest the time! We have very few problems communicating and she usually is able to get her point accross to others. She has an excellent vocabulary but has trouble with tenses and structure.

Classroom studies IMO by themself don't cut it at all. There was a point in my life I was quite fluent in Spanish. Went all the way to the stage of reading books and writing trip reports. Had a few friends that also enjoyed speaking Spanish so the competition was there.

Traveled to Columbia SA. Wow dude! I can't understand a word you are saying! Sounded like a machine gun the people talked so fast.

I have also been trying to learn a little Russian. The one thing I have noticed is most Russians seemto be perfectionists when it comes to speech. Either I am not speaking perfectly or they do not want to acknowledge that I spoke to them in Russian!

[ECOCKS]

You're right about the perfectionism, at least when it comes to pronunciation.

Russians love formal grammar instruction and insist on knowing the rule.  Their frustration level goes through the roof when they find out that many of our language "rules" also have an undocumented and ever-growing list of exceptions.  Russian is deceptive since it has fewer tenses but the whole masc-neutral-fem ending thing somewhat similar to French.

I have found that Russian speakers respond well to formal classes emphasizing grammar up to the intermediate level but then have to break away from the translation crutches and get into conversation activities, the more passionate (emotional passion, pull your tongue back in and close your mouth!) the better!  getting them to put away their Russian-English dictionaries and concentrate on English based activity build skill far more rapidly.

Writing is without a doubt the most neglected of the 4 basic language components by ESL/EFL students.

Ed

[Tamara]

Russians are not necessarily perfectionists, but oftentimes it is essential to use correct grammar to understand a sentence.  While English has strict word order, Russian does not.  Inflections indicate role of a word in a sentence, e.g. they show whether a noun is a subject or an object. 

I think like everybody any Russian really appreciates attempt of a non-native speaker to learn Russian even if their pronunciation is not perfect.

I agree with Ed, that Russian is deceptive.  It does have fewer tenses, but instead we have aspects of the verb.

Regarding writing, it greatly depends on ESL/EFL teacher and school standards. Most of it, however, is done through home work.

[Faux Pas]

Possum

Do you ever visit the American center at TSU?

[possum]

Possum

Do you ever visit the American center at TSU?

No, I never set foot on TSU grounds.. Why?

[ECOCKS]

Please delete.

[Admin]

Our path to get Olya fluent with English went like this:

* When we met, I spoke enough Russian that we did not need to speak English. So much so that when Olya interviewed at the US Embassy in Warsaw, I translated for her with the Consular Officer.
* This persisted for the first few months after she joined me here in the US in mid-2001.
* After a couple of months here, and largely based on her interest in attending university, she went to this language school -- http://www.englishamerica.com/
* The vast majority of students were Asian and Hispanic, with only a couple of FSU (Baltics, IIRC) students.
* She attended full-time for maybe two months.
* The experience for her was valuable in three ways:
 - She rapidly improved her English skills - to the point she took equivalency exams and was sufficiently fluent to enter university within a few months of completing the CSE program.
 - Her exposure to students from other ethnic background had a significant and positive impact on breaking down any childhood ethnic bigotry left from Ukraine.
 - She was not yet driving and needed to learn to navigate the public transportation system in the Denver metro area. Since we live in the West, public transport is not nearly so developed as in Europe or even the Eastern US, hence, it was a major challenge and she managed it extremely well and provided her a sense of independence. That independence was expanded when she later got her drivers license, but learning the public transport system because she was motivated to attend the English school was a MAJOR step to establishing her independence in the US.

BTW - her GPA with university courses is 4.0 (on a 4.0 scale), so I guess she did pretty well with the English side of things.

Our daughter, now 5, is having a much easier time of it. She already reads, writes, and speaks Russian (probably her PRIMARY language, and she attends weekly formal Russian classes now), English and Ukrainian (least of the three), at a very advanced level. Soon, we will add Spanish to the mix - and probably French or German in the near future, though she expresses an interest in Chinese.

Anyway - that is our story.

- Dan

Oops. Forgot one thing. We also found a free private tutor through a local church. They offer an outreach program that provides free private tutoring and Olya attended once per week for several months - at the same time she was attending the CSE program. The tutors are not formally trained - they are almost all retirees who participate in their outreach. In fact, the first lady we met was a VERY interesting lady who had worked (literally) with Mother Theresa in India. Olya remains close friends with her tutor (and her family) even today.

[ECOCKS]

Interesting, especially the bit about taking the ESL class and the diversity of the students.  Teaching University-level business classes here in Ukraine, I have had 3 black students, 7-8 Asian, 1 Nepalese and 1 Iranian out of approximately 250 students in the last 2 years.  I am sure the effect of the classroom mix was different for her at first.  Glad it worked out well.

It is also interesting to note that despite the deficiencies of the univeristy system here, the vast majority of students who go to US graduate programs do quite well in coping with the very different atmosphere and expectations.

[mendeleyev]

Reminds one of the funny story by Yakov Smirnoff, Russian commedian.

He immigrated to the USA and settled in New York, speaking not a word of English.  Deciding that immersion was the best way, he determined to lock himself in his apartment for a month and play the television nearly 24 hours daily.  So he obtained 2 tv sets and turned them both on to begin this routine.

About 2 weeks into his project a Russian acquaintance came to visit. 

-Yakov he asked, why are you watching so much television?

-So I can learn English was his reply.

-Then you'd better switch away from the Spanish channels was his friends retort!   

[Faux Pas]

No, I never set foot on TSU grounds.. Why?

No reason, just wondering. Your english is near immaculate for a Russian. Apparently, they have a very thorough American center there and extensive curriculum on english and American studies. I did visit it but it was during a time that classes were out. The center was open but nobody there.

[possum]

No reason, just wondering. Your english is near immaculate for a Russian. Apparently, they have a very thorough American center there and extensive curriculum on english and American studies. I did visit it but it was during a time that classes were out. The center was open but nobody there.

They just let you in there?. I thought you had to be a student to get in, that's part of why I've stayed away from that place.