Adultery, DV charges and moral fiber

[KenC]

most of these agencies understand what is going on here. these guys are coming over here with no clue, they think that because they are an american they somehow have a trump card or are instantly desirable, probably because of their money.

they actually think these women are "mail order brides" and think because they (the man) is making a choice, whichever little puppy they chose is supposed to obedietly follow them home.

I think this kind of sums up some very important points.  The target market for agencies is the naive middle aged AM.  This "target market man" wants to believe the agency hype.  They want to believe that the young hottie really does want to live out her life with him in his cozy home.  What they fail to understand that once the woman comes to America, they will have to stand up to the compitition.  The compitition is all the other AM that the RW did not have exposure to in the fsu.

KenC

Bruno,

Again I am disappointed that you choose to make a post that not only breaks up the page, but is only marginally on subject.  Geez.

KenC

[Maxx]

Million and one stories in the MOB business

 The target market for agencies is the naive middle aged AM.  This "target market man" wants to believe the agency hype.  They want to believe that the young hottie really does want to live out her life with him in his cozy home.
KenC
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First, thanks Bruno. I do not know what you posted but I know that a long link can make reading a page a real bear 

[line]

 

WARNING: Do not read if you have a low tolerance for sentimental foolishness: 

[line]

I was somewhat one of these guys. My "young hottie" was 33 to my 48 years so perhaps not so young plus she had a 6 year old son.

I realized I was getting old. That someday I would have difficulty running my business without help as I work alone. I process gold scrap into pure gold so I need people around me whom I can trust. So I had naive idea of finding a younger energetic (not so energetic, she slept 12 hours a day) wife that was pretty and had a son who like machinas. The idea was I would take the boy with me when I visited my clients. He would do some light work around the business. We would mix business with having fun such as working on my supercharged 67 Barracuda that I keep in the warehouse, and taking it for cruises. Mom would take turns with him riding shotgun. LOL. Mom had the added advantage of being an economist so she could help with the books. Then as the years clicked by (4 years so far) he would take on more and more responsibilities and Mom and I when he grew and became a man would take more and more vacations. A close family working together and building a future. I thought "good plan!".

However I mostly wanted a younger, pretty, funny and interesting wife who would be my companion and lover. Being my companion occupied about 99.9% of my thinking. The other 00.1% was when I was shopping for her at Victoria's Secret .

What sweet nonsense.  

So was I a bad guy? Naive yes, but was I taking advantage of her by offering her and her son a secure and comfortable life in exchange for a lasting marriage? 

Now what I see it there are good guys and bad guys among the naive and stupid. Usually both come to the same end. I can't dislike these guys as a whole because I was one of them.

Maxx 

[jb]

Good points, anono, and yes, I believe agencies bear a great burden of shame and blame in this.

We can use up a lot of words in this explaination, but a few key phrases keep coming to my mind when dealing with agencies and agency girls.
Such as:

A man should know he's; "sorting the wheat from the chaff."

A man should know he's; "running against big odds for a successsful marriage when the girl is out of his league."

A man should know he's; "dealing with a totally different culture."

A man should know he's; "likely being measured for a mule suit."

A man should know he's; "looking for a diamond in a bucket of sh!t."

A man should know; "Caveat emptor"


 

[Maxx]

Good points jb. If a guy knew what you meant by all you wrote he would  already have had his education in this business. Few do going in.

Maxx

 

[PeeWee]

 

I recall Shane Neff. What happened to him? Was he from another forum or this one? if a different forum is it still thriving?

 

PeeWee

I'd love to see some hard statistics about the success of these RW-AM marriages.

That would be hard to do. As pointed out, a big percentage of AM/RW marriages are made up from a stock of AM who have little or no relationship skills. These marriages are hanging by a thread from the get-go. On the other hand, every marriage I know of that is between a "good" woman and an astute man are both thriving and happy.

All too often we see stories, (one is too many), like c5driver's. The first one I recall reading was the story of Shane Neff's death spiral. Maxx's saga was another. The essence of this is that a lot of these men seem to think that they've heavily invested of themself in the relationship with the RW, when in fact, we learn they think spending the equivilant of one or two years worth of annual vacation time away from their jobs is a "serious investment". Men also tend to look at the dollar sums as an investment, while they ignore the need for an emotional investment. They place huge importance on the fact that they e-mailed and phoned regularly during the months before the visa was granted. Any woman with an agenda can maintain the MOB hype-driven facade via e-mail and phone calls for months, even years, without missing a beat when it serves her purpose to do so. Frankly, all that means is the men were looking for a RW to solve all their relationship problems. Men coming out of a recent divorce are especially vunerable to making this mistake. A one or two year old divorce decree does not mean you don't still have emotional baggage and scarring.

Regarding c5driver's case, from personal experience, I believe any man can step outside the box for a moment and evaluate his situation better than we can second-guess his situation on a forum, but,,, if a woman is not the least bit in love with her man, she will display traits of short patience, she will pick fights over any real or precieved faults, she will lose her temper over the most trivial matters, she will sulk, she will be be aloof or withdrawn, she will withhold sex, she will not attempt to control her anger, she will constantly demand bigger, better, and more lavish material goods, more expensive living space, and display general unhappiness. The man is never right, she is never wrong. These are what I call the "divorce red flags". This is an unhappy woman and in extreme cases this unhappiness will lead to openly hostile attitudes and even blatant unfaithfulness such as c5 has discribed. A woman knows that there is no more brutal and killing blow to a man's self esteem than to publically humiliate him by sleeping with his friends or neighbors.

I believe men are pretty easy to figure out. Men are able to indulge in a relationship with just about any reasonalbly good looking woman and be relatively happy. As long as the wife isn't chasing him around the house with a butcher knife, he thinks his marrige is pretty good. Women are consideralby more picky about their happiness. Unless she really loves her mate, all the money and material wealth in the world will not stop the constant bickering, pissing, groaning, moaning, compaining, and general PMS-like behavior.

A woman who actually loves her man will not display these red flags.

[/quote]

[Maxx]

 

I recall Shane Neff. What happened to him? Was he from another forum or this one? if a different forum is it still thriving?

 

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RW-X2/

It doesn't seem like it gets allot of activity. Last I heard from about a year ago Shane was heading to southern Russia or one of the Stans to met a RW or a few. His big blowout was in the late 90's from what I understand.

Maxx

 

[Journeyman]

A few of you might recall that Shane Neff made an appearance on the old Ricky Lake show about 2 years ago.  That show (which I taped to see later) was a circus (of course), and intentionally portrayed everything about the subject in the worst possible light.  On that show, Shane said that he didn't think that he would venture toward the FSU again.  When asked why, he replied that he simply didn't think that he had the money to do it again.  He was actually rather dignified on the show, generally keeping his cool as they tried over and over again to provoke him.  I could understand how his personality "enabled" him to tolerate his misbehaving GCG for as long as he did.  

I recall reading Shane's rather seminal tome about his experience back in 2002, when he posted it on his web site.  I read it shortly after I had put my first RW (fiancee-GCG) back on the airplane to Russia. Anyway, I copied his story to my hard drive at the time since I could understand a little of what he (and someone like Maxx) had experienced.  I had gotten off very, very light by comparison to them both.  That hard drive in now sitting in an old Pentium II that I unplugged for the last time over a year ago.

I recommend his story as worthwhile reading.  In it, he fully admits to his naivete, unwarranted optimism, and willingness to overlook all kinds of red flags.  However, it also provided enormous detail regarding the behaviors of a scheming GCG.  Quite riveting reading, as I recall.

If anyone knows an easy way to get a copy of Shane's story (with copyright permission), or a link thereto, please say so.  Again, I would strongly recommend it to those just starting out in this effort.  A very sobering account of one man's reality.  I don't recall Maxx having written his story down all in one place, as Shane had.  Am I mistaken?  It seems that I recall Shane's story going on for 20+ pages, single spaced.  He pointed out and detailed all the mistakes he made, and was remarkably honest.

Maxx, thanks again for your continuing contributions on this subject (and all others) herein.

Journeyman

[catzenmouse]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RW-X2/

It doesn't seem like it gets allot of activity. Last I heard from about a year ago Shane was heading to southern Russia or one of the Stans to met a RW or a few. His big blowout was in the late 90's from what I understand.

Maxx

Shane did to to Russia for awhile. Don't know if he's still there or not now. He left RW-X2 (as did I) as it changed with different moderators taking over. If you want to get in touch with him there is a Yahoo group called WooWeasel which was created to pick on Winston Wu and Brad Sharp. I was invited to join and did to see what was going on there but dropped it after reading through a bit of the posts. Some were quite funny but overall it's not a helpful sort of group. From the contacts that I had with Shane on RW-X and RW-X2 I found him to be a decent person who was willing to share his experiences.

Ken

[anono]

hi journeyman, i saw the same show and thought the same thing. shane barely got a word in edgewise. it was all BS and they tried to provoke him as well as misrepresenting everything else.

has anyone ever watched a women's show where they bring a man on to tell his side of the story? ever see a man get even part of his story heard without a bunch of hisses and boos? they gang up on him and he never does get his say.

it was a totally worthless program (as are almost all, if not all) women's shows. the man never gets a fair hearing.

i think there are many good ladies here, some even at the agencies. i am disagreeing even more with andrewfi in his thread, that without exception, they are all GCG's.

most say they just want to look farther than the city they live in. many know most of the american men are "keyboard kowboys" and never show up.

when i told "j" i want her to vist the usa, she said "ok". she has about 4 levels of emotion when she speaks and that was at the lowest level. when i told her i may move to ukraine and live here, it went to the highest lvel and she said "yes, yes, yes, i want!!!" she could not care less about living in the usa.

back to topic, most of these guys are not connecting with these women. they are ignoring all the red and yellow flags. no wonder these things happen to the wishfullfillment types.

[anono]

clyde's son, i read your post..and i know of another guy who says his wife likes to argue. maybe i just got real lucky but i have not seen one shred of evidence that "j" is like what you describe. i hate to say this because i do not know the whole story but next time she did what you describe, i wouldn't even bother telling her to go back to ukraine. i'd go get the ticket and help her pack.life is too short to live under those conditions. i'd rather be alone than unhappy.

[Bruno]

i know of another guy who says his wife likes to argue. maybe i just got real lucky but i have not seen one shred of evidence that "j" is like what you describe.

Anono, you are not yet married... you are always in the seduction process and if she have real interest in you, she will keep a low profile until the final "yes"...

In several couple, thing change just after the marriage... if you are able to life in Ukraine and stay together with "J" without marry her, make it... both will be needed to seduce the other each day and keep the "flame"... in several case, the marriage is the "end" of a interesting periode and several men or women don't work anymore to build the relation... it is why several marriage break down during the first year...

 

[Maxx]

I don't recall Maxx having written his story down all in one place, as Shane had. Am I mistaken?

I posted my "Divorcing my RW wife" thread on RWG. It started with about a page or two that I realized I had married a GCG, I filed the divorce, went and told her (mistake) and she disappeared, then finding out through her friends she went to a woman's shelter but no charges were levied at me yet. All this in about 2 pages.

I posted this with several followup post from a few posters that post here now and others from over there. Then I posted that I went to the Sheriff's office to see how the process serve was going and they told me that they tried to process serve her at the shelter but the shelter would not let them (the VAWA act gives them this power and immunity from prosecution or examination). Instead they had a summons for me to come to court in 5 days and face rape charges among other things. I posted all this.

I got allot advice from the board, much of it very good or great in retrospect. I then went to the trial. And it ended with me being found guilty of "pushing and shoving" based on only her word against mine.

The divorce ended without her getting anything. I posted details but not all the secret stuff going on in the background as I feared she and her friends would read it on the board.

The name "Elvira" became synonymous with a bad RW with GCG intentions. As in "you don't want to get an Elvira?". Maxx with "getting "Maxxed"" and so on.  I figured I did something good with making people aware of the risks associated with making a poor choice.

One of the problems I had or still do is being discounted as not being able to give good advice. Over at RWG I am marginalized by many. Some of it I brought on myself by clowning around and not adopting an all wise wised up character. I guess it doesn't matter too much. The guys who get into a jam read my story and recognize in themselves their own limitations and failings in good judgement and then contact me for advice.

I have thought of writing my story from start to finish. No slight on Shane but it is far more interesting that his story. As example during my preparations for the divorce I hired Elena Garrett's www.Russian-Detective.com detectives to do some checking on my then wife's background and the financial scam she did to me. I was sent documents, reports and photos. This was before I filed the divorce. It was all undercover stuff such as getting into conversations with people and getting information without them knowing what they are doing. The overall objective of a investigation of this sort is to go in, get what you need and then get out without anyone knowing you were there. Then when the divorce started I sent in a second team of detectives. Two of the detectives were Russian women. Anna was a real beauty IMO



Taken with a Digital Video Camera 

I leaked some of the information I got from them in the divorce and my then wife backed off on all her demands.

Also got some interesting information about the agency I used with undercover photos and so on. What was interesting to me was that I got information and details of certain events and people that I had not told Elena Garrett about or anyone. Suddenly I am getting information about such and such and all the blanks were being filed in. Elena's detectives do a great job. Some of them are ex-KGB and have ties with their old friends in the now named FSB. When those guys say "we want something" it gets done right now and that can be a useful tool for cutting through red tape in bureaucratic Russia and getting people to cooperate.

Anyway all this stuff seems to be too difficult for most to identify with. So if I mention anything this stuff at RWG I usually get ignored or have someone get irritated.

Maxx

[andrewfi]

Well, that's Anna's cover blown then eh?

[Maxx]

Retired Andrew.... She's a lawyer and it was something she did in between jobs.

Maxx

[anono]

maxx, your information is priceless. many thanks

[300spartans]

KenC,

I am a bit mystified as to why you started this thread. Your initial post read a bit like one of those legendary bean efforts. Like jb, you claim to be married to a perfect RW. But both you and jb then throw a bucket over the vast majority of RW and UW. I do not dispute the tenor of your advice that many FSU women going West have a secret agenda. How can you both be sure that your own good woman does not also have a private agenda? Only time will tell. Many WW wait twenty years before getting rid of the bum - often waiting for the kids to grow up. Do you think your own wives like and believe what you post? E.g. most RW are bad, but my wife is a saint. I learned the hard way on another board that my posts, which I thought were secret, were easily discovered by my wife, and she did not like my tendency to be truthful about both her and FSUW generally. One point I could repeat here is that many or even most FSUW have been abused emotionally and physically by their fathers. Some also sexually. FSUW have grown up in desperate situations in a corrupt system. Those willing to go West will do whatever it takes to survive and prosper. Like you KenC I married a young, single and beautiful young woman. The risks are high but so are the rewards. When you mentioned the things that sap did, like buying a car and paying college fees etc and approaching bankruprtcy, I thought maybe you were writing about yourself. But I realised that no, all is well at your household. FSUW will let their mule quickly spend as much money as he is stupid enough to do, and they will not be grateful for it. The Western husband actually gets more respect by being somehat frugal, though stinginess is a no no.

You both also claim that the vast majority of WM are inexperienced in dating matters. This is incorrect in my opinion, and where is your evidence? I used an agency and am now married happily to a UW. Though I was naive in the extreme as to both the women, the fees and the ethics of the agency I used. I learned very quickly though as my wallet emptied.

Consider this - how many WM using FSUW agencies have used or even considered using an agency to meet WW? Probably, very few. The main reason FSUW agencies are useful is because most WM cannot speak Russian and might not even go to the FSU without an agency assisting - at least at first.

My experience indicates that many genuine wife seeking WM using FSU agencies have been married, often for a long time to one woman. Many have children. Some male agency users are serial daters visiting the FSU as sex tourists - some of whom pretend to be seeking wives and post as such on these forums. Some agency activities are rather like pimping or procuring.

The FSU is a tricky place full of tricky people, both men and women. Naive WM are likley to get skinned. At least, they will be overcharged, cheated, conned and pickpocketed. They are not likley to get bashed or suchlike.

I lived there for quite a while with my then fiance and like the edginess of the place. Life in the West is sometimes a bit too ordered, peaceful and dull.

Finally, KenC and jb, remember - there but for the grace of God go I. It is easy to call those men getting divorced from connniving FSUW losers. You see the faults in these men, yet you both believe you are fault free. But there is a big element of luck in finding a good FSUW. So far, I seem to have been lucky. After a few more years I may become a bit more cocky. But I hope I never lose sympathy for those poor saps taken for a brutal ride, often leading to emotional and financial devastation.



       

[KenC]

[user=150]300spartans[/user] wrote:

KenC,

I am a bit mystified as to why you started this thread.

With all the threads concerning false DV charges and RW being able to pull off the best deceptions imaginable, I thought it would be a good area to discuss.

 Your initial post read a bit like one of those legendary bean efforts. Like jb, you claim to be married to a perfect RW. But both you and jb then throw a bucket over the vast majority of RW and UW. I do not dispute the tenor of your advice that many FSU women going West have a secret agenda. How can you both be sure that your own good woman does not also have a private agenda? Only time will tell.

I can't and won't speak for jb, but my wife is far from perfect.  After knowing my wife for seven years, she is either very slow to play her move, or I may have gotten to know her, just a bit.  At this point in time there is still no guarantee that my marriage will be ever lasting, but if it should go sideways now it will be because of more typical reasons and not because of some premeditated scam.

 Many WW wait twenty years before getting rid of the bum - often waiting for the kids to grow up.

Any marriage can end.  I had a 21 year marriage end too.  It wasn't a premeditated scam, things just happen and people change over a great period of time.

Do you think your own wives like and believe what you post? E.g. most RW are bad, but my wife is a saint. I learned the hard way on another board that my posts, which I thought were secret, were easily discovered by my wife, and she did not like my tendency to be truthful about both her and FSUW generally.

My wife's view point on RW involved in MOB business would make your head spin.  She is no where as nice about them as I am.  She also isn't a saint, but that is OK too because neither am I.

One point I could repeat here is that many or even most FSUW have been abused emotionally and physically by their fathers. Some also sexually. FSUW have grown up in desperate situations in a corrupt system. Those willing to go West will do whatever it takes to survive and prosper.

I don't have any idea what you are basing this opinion on, but my Father in law was a very good Dad to my wife.  She also didn't come from a desperate family situation.

 Like you KenC I married a young, single and beautiful young woman. The risks are high but so are the rewards. When you mentioned the things that sap did, like buying a car and paying college fees etc and approaching bankruprtcy, I thought maybe you were writing about yourself. But I realised that no, all is well at your household. FSUW will let their mule quickly spend as much money as he is stupid enough to do, and they will not be grateful for it.

I see your point on this, but the more time you are actually happily married the less likely this is to be true.  The greatest actress in the world could not play this role for such a long period of time.

The Western husband actually gets more respect by being somehat frugal, though stinginess is a no no.

I agree with this.  Any woman will respect you more if you occasionally just say "NO".

You both also claim that the vast majority of WM are inexperienced in dating matters. This is incorrect in my opinion, and where is your evidence?

I base my opinion on the many couples I have met over the years.

I used an agency and am now married happily to a UW. Though I was naive in the extreme as to both the women, the fees and the ethics of the agency I used. I learned very quickly though as my wallet emptied.

Consider this - how many WM using FSUW agencies have used or even considered using an agency to meet WW? Probably, very few. The main reason FSUW agencies are useful is because most WM cannot speak Russian and might not even go to the FSU without an agency assisting - at least at first.

My experience indicates that many genuine wife seeking WM using FSU agencies have been married, often for a long time to one woman. Many have children. Some male agency users are serial daters visiting the FSU as sex tourists - some of whom pretend to be seeking wives and post as such on these forums. Some agency activities are rather like pimping or procuring.

My opinion on this is that if a man uses an agency for anything more than introductions and trip coordination (flat rentals, interpreters, airport transportation ect) they are in trouble.  Too many men look for the agencies to make too many decisions for them.

The FSU is a tricky place full of tricky people, both men and women. Naive WM are likley to get skinned. At least, they will be overcharged, cheated, conned and pickpocketed. They are not likley to get bashed or suchlike.

I lived there for quite a while with my then fiance and like the edginess of the place. Life in the West is sometimes a bit too ordered, peaceful and dull.

I agree with this totally.

Finally, KenC and jb, remember - there but for the grace of God go I. It is easy to call those men getting divorced from connniving FSUW losers. You see the faults in these men, yet you both believe you are fault free. But there is a big element of luck in finding a good FSUW. So far, I seem to have been lucky. After a few more years I may become a bit more cocky. But I hope I never lose sympathy for those poor saps taken for a brutal ride, often leading to emotional and financial devastation.

The emphasis of my original post was to question the lack of morality found in these GCG's and not the foolishness of the mules.  I don't consider myself "fault free" and yes, you will become more confident in your choices as time goes on, as you should.  Luck never hurts.

KenC 

[jb]

I had an initial urge to respond to Spartan's post, but after a little thought, that passed.... However since Ken has seen fit to open the can of worms,,,,

Like jb, you claim to be married to a perfect RW.

I never said my wife was perfect.  She is, in fact, capable of being as mule-headed as the next woman.  However we do get along somewhat nicely.  The fact that she continues to plod along in harness with me as we approach our 5th wedding anniversary speaks fairly well of her intentions.  

I agree with Ken in that the odds of a GCG hanging in there long past the arrival date of the GC are so slim as to be marginal.  I've known my wife for a very long time, but knowing a woman and being married to her are very different things, as any married man would attest.

Is there some magic number of years one must spend with a woman before he can claim success?  I don't think so. Any marriage can go downhill at any time, and for some of the oddest reasons.  But I think we are speaking of initial  "intentions" here, that condition or situation which  prompted that beautiful young girl to place an ad on an internet dating site in the first place. I believe that was the thrust of Ken's original post.  I firmly believe he's onto something as he recounts the hazards of young agency girls and one week whirlwind romances with older middle-aged men.  All that glitters is not gold.  A man in that situation must simply pay his money and take his chances, but he should also know that he bucks long odds in choosing poorly.  Selecting a mate based solely on good looks and a hard body is thin criteria and I don't think I'm being an overly hardnosed SOB for pointing this out.  

I also don't think there is some magic number of trips a man must make, nor do I believe there any guarantees issued with your marriage license.  I also tend to feel that a 90 day trial marriage during a K-1 visa is insuffient time to make life altering decisions.  If the woman's intentions are not solid, then 90 days will not reveal what the sucker needs to know before he marches down the asile.

I've also been around these boards long enough to know that no amount of clue-batting is going to change anyone's mind once he has made the decision to be an idiot.  YMMV.

[Maxx]

I got to give KenC a great deal of credit posting on these boards. Most men in his situation would just forget about the rest of us. Yet he keeps trying to get the word out. Actually there is a core of men here I could say the same about.

In regards to Ken's luck I would have to say he surely was. Not just about finding his lovely wife but about a few other things that helped him. These things always stuck out to me as I did not have these advantages going into this process. Naming them;

1) Dealing with a Western owned and operated agency in the FSU. In other words not using a Russian owned agency with American partners. But using an agency that had Americans (Canadians, Belgiums etc. would be fine as well) living there in Russia who could keep an eye on things.

 2) Getting a sit down heart to heart talk with the agency owner there about the pitfalls of choosing the wrong woman. And their help in identifying what was a good woman and the plan to verify this.

In regard to his luck I am not saying it was "dumb luck" as he used intellegence and was in a good position to make a wise choice. But somehow his stumbling upon or being directed to the right people/agency helped him find his jewel of a wife. You can say that luck is also involved when someone finds RWD before they venture into this process and then get an education about the perils, pitfalls and rewards of seeking a RW as a wife. 

Maxx    

[300spartans]

Leslie,

Gads man what a cheap shot. Both KenC and jb prove that they can both take it as well as dish it out. I am not sure how I got your gander up?

I am married to a Ukrainian woman, am not "the" 1weekwonder, although some of my past actions were consistent with that title which I believe KenC coined elsewhere.

I agree strongly with jb that 3 months is not enough to base a marriage decision on. My wife and I had lived together for well over twelve months before we got married. A year of that time was in Ukraine.

My own view, again agreeing with jb, is that if my wife stays with me for say twelve months after attaining permanent residency, then she is not a GCG nor did she have a preconceived long term trade up plan.

jb says watch the body language etc. I agree strongly, for example, I could not pretend to love somebody for even 24 hours. Women are better at it, but even so the trickers are sure to often let their guard down when tired, drunk or angry. I think the womans attitude to close body contact is helpful. If she likes you to keep your distance, this is not good. Mind you, FSUW are pretty volatile so it is necessary to filter out the extremes at times.

Re this skill in dating thing, it may be that the best daters might be less suitable husbands and wives - they may be more inclined to be unfaithful.

[Leslie]

I apologise for confusing you with a troll.

My post is beyond the 12 hour limit otherwise I would delete it.



[from Dan] I took care of deleting it Leslie.

[Maxx]

[user=150]300spartans[/user] wrote:

jb says watch the body language etc. I agree strongly, for example, I could not pretend to love somebody for even 24 hours. Women are better at it, but even so the trickers are sure to often let their guard down when tired, drunk or angry. I think the womans attitude to close body contact is helpful. If she likes you to keep your distance, this is not good. Mind you, FSUW are pretty volatile so it is necessary to filter out the extremes at times.

Re this skill in dating thing, it may be that the best daters might be less suitable husbands and wives - they may be more inclined to be unfaithful.

Late last night I read these words and I thought "what great material this is for expansion". Body language reading over time and sorting out those times (and those times of the month) of extremes in temper and mood to get an overall gauge of whether she really digs you or not and if not what is her true reason to be with you? Green card? Financial? Other? Of course the real interest I have is the clues of body language. After all her desire for sex can be confused with her liking you, right? 

The second part hit home on some thinking I had on this subject lately of dating skills. It is urged around here and elsewhere to get those dating skills before entering the FSU dating pool.

As to the above I am not clueless I just think this subject should be expanded upon so I am throwing out the questions. Good post 300Spartans.

Maxx

 

[Albert]

From a previous post:  "Andrewfi said it a long time ago, a very high percentage of the hot chicks who populate the MOB sites are little more than prostitutes,,, pure and simple. I made the mistake of disbelieving him at the time, but I've come to agree with him after watching the local MOB's in action. Most of these girls are just bad news trash."

To add some perspective here, I will state:  I have been to FSU over 20 times and have dated over 150 FSU women.  I have spent several weeks with 10 or so of them.  I have never met any prostitutes (or even scammers) in this entire group.  But, I have also never met any women though marriage agencies and I have not dated hot chicks (if this means teenagers and 20 somethings who are 9s or 10s).  I have only been with women who were 35 years or older. Over 95% of the women I dated were university graduates, many with other advanced degrees, and in professional (not prostitute) jobs.

The vast majority of these women were very pleasant, well mannered, did not want to go to expensive restaurants, were willing to cook home meals, wanted to go to ballet vs night club, were not obsessed with getting out of FSU, etc., etc.

In short, they seemed to me to have very good moral fiber.
However, they were mostly very, very feminine and highly interested in sex.  Some might consider that a moral problem, but I do not.

[andrewfi]

Maxx and others, whilst body language is a useful tool, we should never forget that it has different languages and dialects as well. So, it is no good learning about body language as you see it around you, but you must learn about it in the target group that you hope to interact with. Of course, it is not just understanding what they do, but also making sure that you are 'speaking' the right language.

 

[Maxx]

Of course, it is not just understanding what they do, but also making sure that you are 'speaking' the right language.

 

In my opinion playing clueless (which is easy to do, just let your tongue hang out) is the best approach. Then sit back and watch what they do. Wolves act more bold around sheep than they do around Pit Bulls. Play dumb.

Maxx