How do you know when a FSUW is in Love with you?

[Gator]

Wait until you know, it is not a race, you do not get a prize if you rush it ahead of nature.

I thought this answer to the OP's question was brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Then you wrote,

Besides, the happiest you will ever be is in that highly romantic fantasy world located in time somewhere between meeting and marriage, well before the nasty part comes into play: reality and responsibility

This bewildered me.  Perhaps you were saying what Tamara wrote,   

While dating, it's all romance. But routine life and obstacles really prove if love is real.

Yes, there is work to be done in the reality of marriage – crying babies, dirty dishes, unpaid bills, schedule conflicts.  Nevertheless, a couple should make sure that they find some time every day to be romantic with each other:  tender words, unsolicited deeds, gentle touches, the occasional flowers, etc.  The romance is as important as resolving conflicts productively, respecting the other's opinion, being honest, etc.  Do all of this together with the romance and you will feel a sense a happiness more profound and deeper than that felt in the haze of infatuation.  Oh, don't forget the laughter.

[kievstar]

M-Diva - you sound a lot like a lot of young career orientated AW in big cities in USA (which is not bad). Like screen name "diva" also is similar to young AW in big city .  Just a couple of comments.  French and Americans generally hate each other so not good to go to Paris for a wife (I lived in Paris for about 4 months was nice but not Ukraine as Kiev is more beautiful).  Regarding Moscow and Kiev big city girls - Personally I do not want a wife who works (she can do hobbies, vacation with friends, take care of children,or charity work) but do not want a 40 plus hour working week wife and as you know in Kiev and Moscow many women work a lot more than 40 hours a week as they want a career.  Smaller cities tend to have more family orientated girls or at least many seem to think that in the USA.  But your right pursuing a women with money is not always good but many men do this even the RM.  But most men on this board and / or who go to Ukraine do not make a millionaire a year let alone have several million of cash free. 

[I/O]

There are fewer of us

I wonder is "Ed-the-8-to-1-man" reading this?

I/O

[possum]

Ok, at the risk of getting myself in hot water..

M_Diva,

No offense, but you sound like a capital city diva who lives sort of a sheltered life and has no real clue about the current situation in the country at large.. Take, for example, your claim that young Russians all have their own places and are completely debt free.. That is an outrageous claim because the fact of the matter, as someone else pointed out, is that the only way for most young Russians to acquire a place of their own is if their grandparents die.. Mortgage is not available to most Russians regardless of their age.. Also, consumer loans have grown in popularity among the younger crowd in recent years.. Or maybe you don't consider an outstanding loan a form of debt?.

And what's with you putting people into these neat little "classes" according to their social status and cultural background?. Do you have any idea how creepy you sound?. Next you're going to tell us there's class warfare going on in Russia..

[Misha]

That is an outrageous claim because the fact of the matter, as someone else pointed out, is that the only way for most young Russians to acquire a place of their own is if their grandparents die.. Mortgage is not available to most Russians regardless of their age..

There is another problem: what if grandmother lived in a village with no jobs or one of the thousands of villages that no longer exists in Russia.

And what's with you putting people into these neat little "classes" according to their social status and cultural background?. Do you have any idea how creepy you sound?. Next you're going to tell us there's class warfare going on in Russia..

I agree with you. However, some would say that there is already a class warfare going on. One blogger whose ideas I respect, Paul Goble, has an interesting piece looking a the two Russias: urban and rural and how they are increasingly at odds.

[Gator]

And what's with you putting people into these neat little "classes" according to their social status and cultural background?. Do you have any idea how creepy you sound?.

Marina is probably not your type of woman, nor are you her type of man, yet I feel you would be good for her. 

[Gator]

I wonder is "Ed-the-8-to-1-man" reading this?

 

[possum]

I agree with you. However, some would say that there is already a class warfare going on.

What he talks about in his article is not class warfare per se, it's more of a 'Moscow vs. the rest of Russia' type thing..  We've been oppressed by Moscow since before the collapse of the Soviet Union, so there's nothing new about that..

[Misha]

What he talks about in his article is not class warfare per se, it's more of a 'Moscow vs. the rest of Russia' type thing..  We've been oppressed by Moscow since before the collapse of the Soviet Union, so there's nothing new about that..

True, but not everybody is Moscow and St. Petersburg is living Marina's gilded life 

[possum]

Marina is probably not your type of woman, nor are you her type of man, yet I feel you would be good for her. 

I don't know about that.. I better check with my mother before I do anything..

[Diplomacy]

Good call Possum, I guess the old habits of men, can not change with the social reformation taking place. 

Diva:

Thank you for your response.

Here are some glaring issues IMO.  You make a broad statement with people in America in an all inclusive bucket, then use your frame of reference or social standing that represents a fraction of the population in Russia.

If you take my Fraternity for example.  A larger percentage of the brother's parents paid for University at about $25,000 a year.  Then when they were done a lot went to work in family business or industry that the family was well established in.

Some had house given to them, some had business start up paid for, some had a lot of debt coming out of school.  See there were different socioeconomic standings in the Fraternity.

There were a lot of different nationalities, religions, and cultures shared.  USA is a melting pot, but many do not seek out or embrace different cultures. 

As for housing, it has been said how this is happening in FSU.  What if there are 4 Grandchildren?  There is only 2 apartments and what if Baba lives for 80 years.  To me that is not controlling your own destiny.  Great if you can get it, but so is the lottery.  How many people live in the apartment?

See where you have a similar group in America?

How good do you feel that you can support two children and then have disposable income near the amount you have now?

See, that is where the discussion needs to go as forward thinking. 

There is an awful lot of once very rich men that are begging for help and offering shares or even ownership of the company as payment.

What happens if Oil and Gas are kept down for years?

What do you think the life you have now is like then? 

[M_Diva]

I don't know about that.. I better check with my mother before I do anything..

If you had checked with your mother, she would tell you to study sociology a bit and find that I did not create these classifications, I am reporting to those who possibly are not familiar with the social sciences. She would also tell you that jumping to conclusions without evidence reflects badly on you and her, she probably taught you better than that, along with manners which seem to have been overlooked.

I bought my apartment, just like most people here. I worked hard to pay for it way before it was built. I bought it while still in school and did not take title until 6 years later. Gilded world?  You sound bitter and angry as missed opportunities that arrive everyday if you are alert enough, aware enough and proactvie enough. Your statements, are not becoming and reflect badly on your mothers efforts to turn you into a honorable man.

Good luck as the fast moving society passes you by.

[Sculpto]

I knew I could count on your guys to poke some big holes in Marina's commentary.  If I didn't know better I would say she is my girlfriend in disguise.  She made all the same arguments not long ago... right up until her Dad got sick and she discovered the glory of the Russian medical system for those without bribe money.  LOL  And, you should hear her now after being attacked.. her love of Russia has gone frm blind patriotism to some kind of abstract nostalgia of the ancient glories tempered by the reality that for most people Russia remains a backwards and often brutal society.

There is IMO a new class of young Russians that are not only exceptionally patriotic and optimistic about the future, but, also highly brainwashed into the unquestioned belief of the superiority of everything Russian.  I like to call them "Putindroog".  They remind me of young Americans from rich suburbs in midwestern cities who have been well cared for and sheltered by doting parents all their lives.  When such people come to places like SF they get a wake up call to the realities that exist outside their known circles and it can be exceptionally disturbing to their perceptions.  

That said.. the world views Marina expresses are common certainly in StP and Moscu and I suspect are becoming more common in smaller places where the "haves" are becming a larger demographic.  My Ukrainian friend here in SF sounds like her also as she claims she had a much better lifestyle in Kiev than is possible here in SF.  On the other hand.. the skills she had in Kiev don't qualify her for anything here.. I suspect the same would be true for many of the New Russians who demonstrate the same kind of bravado as Marina.  Talk all you want about how great Russia is and then try to compete in the road race around here where the best and brightest from the whole world come to participate in the heart of the high tech revolution in Silicon Valley.

And finally.. Marina.. please don't take my comments in any way as an attack on you.  I actually like the optimism you have, even if somewhat misinformed and endearingly naive.  

[Sculpto]

Good luck as the fast moving society passes you by.

Marina.. please explain to me something.  I have a very good friend in StP who is an exceptional young artist.  She informs me that in StP there are very few opportunities available for young women.. either work as a cam model on a porno site or sell herbalife.  My friend is very well educated... but comes from the outer reaches where the remains of the Soviet Union are still crumbling..

While Possum and I don't agree on a lot.. I think your comments to him are unjustified and reflect the fragility of the overconfidence you are showing us.

[Misha]

I bought my apartment, just like most people here..

Yes, I am sure like most people. Let me guess, you had a bit of help from dad and mom 

[Sculpto]

Yes, I am sure like most people. Let me guess, you had a bit of help from dad and mom 

Or maybe she "helped" a random Babushka in her last days...  

[Misha]

she would tell you to study sociology

Well, I am sure they taught you in your sociology courses the dangers of generalizing from a small and potentially biased sample. It can lead to skewed results not truly representative of the entire population  :evil:

[M_Diva]

Yes, I am sure like most people. Let me guess, you had a bit of help from dad and mom 

Than again, you would be wrong. Do you always jump to such conclusions without evidence? My father probably would have if a truck had not crushed him when I was 12.

With so many people, all spouting their reasons by what has been written can't be true, I don't know where to begin. I know, I will ignore it and go meet my friends where a good rock band is playing. If any one you wants a serious debate, with reason and evidence I would welcome it but there is no rebuttle to a shot gun approach.
I have better things to do with my time.
Good bye

[Misha]

If any one you wants a serious debate, with reason and evidence I would welcome it but there is no rebuttle to a shot gun approach.

As a Russian sociologist you should have access to statistical evidence supporting your point of view. I would welcome your evidence.

[GoodOlBoy]

I know, I will ignore it and go meet my friends where a good rock band is playing.

Have a good evening at the disco and watch out for those bad RM.   :evil:


GOB

[Sculpto]

I have better things to do with my time.

LOL... my lady does the same thing.. she does not take criticism well and when there is ANY evidence she is wrong she prefers to avoid the debate.  I have been able to make some progress with her on both "issues" and she has loosened up a lot.

I have often wondered what is the source for the lack of willingness to debate or the almost arrogant stubborness when "she" thinks she is right but is presented with clear evidence otherwise.  I have guessed it goes back to the Soviet time and what appears to me as the part of the Russian Soul that likes a strong leader to tell them what to do and what to think. 

[M_Diva]

LOL... my lady does the same thing.. she does not take criticism well and when there is ANY evidence she is wrong she prefers to avoid the debate.  I have been able to make some progress with her on both "issues" and she has loosened up a lot.

I have often wondered what is the source for the lack of willingness to debate or the almost arrogant stubborness when "she" thinks she is right but is presented with clear evidence otherwise.  I have guessed it goes back to the Soviet time and what appears to me as the part of the Russian Soul that likes a strong leader to tell them what to do and what to think. 

The reason i will not engage all at once is that it is NOT a debate but a free-for-all. You think I can't and will not debate you personally and provide ample support for my positions? One a a time but not this gang up, that is not a suitable use of anyone's time.

You might be surprised, a few people have a wider overview than you assume. These sniping cuts and board innuendos are insulting and reveal a distinct lack of character, from any culture.
Apparently there is no interest in substative dialog on this forum, those who have studied these issues are not welcome. I can understand the clannish behavior, it is very common in all walks of life, but it certainly lowers my estimation of participants., You need to tell people right off when joining it is a club house where popular trumps reasoned.
That way there is no need to be troubled by dissenting views or other disturbances.
 Marina

[Misha]

Apparently there is no interest in substative dialog on this forum, those who have studied these issues are not welcome.

Again, if you have studied these issues, you should be able to provide some substance to the debate. So far, you provide anecdotal evidence.

[BC]

Diva,

Sorry to hear about your loss at the young age of 12. A tragedy for sure..

You are catching a lot of flack here, but handling it well I see.. I kinda like your 'spunk'.

What many don't realise is that a lower life expectancy helps more than hinders a countries economy.

What's so good about living past your 'best used by:date' when the costs of doing so are becoming prohibitively expensive?  Such is really a luxury.

To me, many western economies will be in dire difficulty quite soon because their productivity simply cannot support the costs associated with their aging population.

[Misha]

What many don't realise is that a lower life expectancy helps more than hinders a countries economy.

Well, not necessarily. The easiest solution when life expectancy increases is to raise the age of retirement. A 66 is usually just as capable as a 64 year old