How do you know when a FSUW is in Love with you?

[Sculpto]

Don't quite understand your point here. Are you saying that cross-cultural romantic love is impossible? That a RW cannot fall in love with a man who is not Russia?

Thats not what she is saying Misha.. what she means is there is no compelling financial reason for young women in St. Pete, at least in her social circle, to specifically seek out a western man.  She is also saying that finances were the prime motivator for women in the past.  Any romantic notions about western men have long since disappeared, probably due to bad publicity from SexTourist and Hans Reiser etc.

Honestly.. she is the prototype of the New Russian female.  Sexually liberated, highly educated, financially independent.  Her comments should be all that much more evidence that the BS on agencies is exactly that.. BS.  Times HAVE changed.

Though, I better be careful about speaking for her.. she will probably find something disagreeable in my comments. 

I would also say that her view is limited to a relative minority of women.  But, that is my opinion.

[Misha]

Thats not what she is saying Misha.. what she means is there is no compelling financial reason for young women in St. Pete, at least in her social circle, to specifically seek out a western man.

I understood that part, but in the passage that I cited it makes it seem that romantic love is not possible. In any case, I was hoping she would clarify what she was saying.

[Blues Fairy]

I would think that, on the contrary, there's more room for romantic love if the prospect of marriage is the one of instant economic improvement.  You are definitely more nervous about the material aspects if your significant other is equally or less well-off than you are.  But if the guy can provide decently, what's the problem?  You can bathe in romantic love to your heart's content. 

[Sculpto]

I understood that part, but in the passage that I cited it makes it seem that romantic love is not possible. In any case, I was hoping she would clarify what she was saying.

I suspect she will be back.

I didn't read it that way though.  I think she is saying practical concerns interfere and disrupt the natural flow of romance.  Given my personal situation right now I do not disagree.. practicalities are definitely interfering with romance for me and my GF.  If I lived there I could simply be there for her and let things progress without the pressure of visas and so on.

[Sculpto]

I would think that, on the contrary, there's more room for romantic love if the prospect of marriage is the one of instant economic improvement.  You are definitely more nervous about the material aspects if your significant other is equally or less well-off than you are.  But if the guy can provide decently, what's the problem?  You can bathe in romantic love to your heart's content. 

Blues.. for once we agree on something.    Although, I think her critique implies that other practicalities of international romance interfere with the flow.

[Misha]

I think she is saying practical concerns interfere and disrupt the natural flow of romance.  

She writes that romantic love is a question of brain chemicals, or in her words "early romantic love is a chemical process." If this is the case, then how exactly do practical concerns interfere with the chemical process?

[Blues Fairy]

She writes that romantic love is a question of brain chemicals, or in her words "early romantic love is a chemical process." If this is the case, then how exactly do practical concerns interfere with the chemical process?

Giving tasks to the frontal lobes does interfere with the processes taking place in the limbic system.  That's one method used to manage panic attacks; I imagine it can also be used to treat romantic "chemical" love. 

[ECOCKS]

Does this make sense in the context of my original post that you were questioning?

Marina

Yes and no.  It makes a bit more sense but, sadly, mostly reinforces my initial impression.

It may just be your overall usage of the word "happiness" though.  That's why I was trying to determine context.

Love and drug-addiction have some amusing parallels and it could well be that a majority or near-majority of the people in the world are now so overstimulated that they are adopting this definition of "happiness" as well.  

Your use of the absolute remains disturbing and disquieting, at least to me.  I earnestly hope that someday you realize that the "happiest" point of your life didn't occur before marriage.  If not, I at least hope that the "happiest" point of your life was high enough that the rest of your life still fell in the range of happy or maybe happier than others.

Best of luck to you (in the absolute sense).

[M_Diva]

I am not sure how that part was misunderstood.

No, I did not mean or intend to say that cross cultural relationships are impossible, they are suspect for many people however since when all things are equal, such pairings are rare and perfectly satisfying, they just are not entered into often. When introducing modifiers of one type or another, say, a perceived large economic difference, the number of such relationship increase a lot. Why are more men going to Ukraine and not France where there are closer compatibility of cultural experiences? The girls are just as pretty, and nice as in Ukraine. Any why men are not going to say Moscow so much when the only real difference is level of optimism for current life.
Those seeking are using economic differences as a tool to attract a partner that might not otherwise be interested.

I think it takes a pretty open minded person to embrace another culture on other than the most superficial level and few people from any particular region or country are really open to adopting major changes to their cultural training.
If a person was just as likely to find a great relationship in a region where they had not "advantage", such as an American man going to France to pursue a relationship, I think the basis for the relationship would be on sounder footing because of the equality between the couple. Starting out with such a practical consideration as money does not bode well for a relationship to develop naturally by plain old attraction to a person. Is the same attraction there when a once economically unbalanced couple suddenly becomes balanced?  There are many case studies of these factors and I believe on an objective level, I am reading them correctly, as the evidence leads.
When I see a man come here to live as his new wife has lived, the nature of the relationship is entirely different than if she was to go to him, In the case of him going to fit into her life, the balance is immediate. When she, if poorer, goes to his greatest strength of difference, the imbalance is intensified for a few years. A higher percentage of imbalanced relationships fail than those where the people are from similar social class, economic class and shared cultural experiences.
Just as the studies predict, I see more successful relationships that start on equal footing than where there is a large difference in whatever elements define the relationship..money, attractiveness, education etc. I know dozens of western men who came here to St Petersburg to pursue a relationship and stayed. My best male friend is an American man, he came for the culture and stayed. I have no doubt he will find an appropriate partner right here...someday.

[Diplomacy]

How often is a Russian man In SPG going to the treat the woman as an equal in this scenario?

[Misha]

Giving tasks to the frontal lobes does interfere with the processes taking place in the limbic system.  That's one method used to manage panic attacks; I imagine it can also be used to treat romantic "chemical" love. 

Either that or the smell of money is a pheromone that has a powerful effect on the chemicals of the brain

[M_Diva]

I am not sure of what you are asking. A local man getting together with a local woman, sharing life long cultural experiences, language, social cuing, social class, probably economic class would have a lot of things going for them.

If you are refering to treatment, manners, consideration, etc than I say men I meet are very well mannered, and romantic, I have no problem with the men around me, I can't complain at all. If a man was not considerate or well mannered he would not be around me. This younger generation of men are quite pleasant to be around, the girls have trained them to be less arrogant as their fathers and there is a lot of competetion for ladies so they have become very considerate.  They are also well educated, happy and optimistic, fun loving and rather patient. I think the men from 22-32 or so has really handled the growth in gender equality well, better than their fathers.

[Diplomacy]

Not when it is a culture dominated by men.  Then you are not thought of by the men as equal.

[M_Diva]

How often do you hang out with young Russian men? Young women here are have a great deal of independence and are not much dominated by men. The young men know we do not really need them, like our mothers did, so they have learned a whole different set of social behaviors. If anything young women have a bit of the upper hand. There are fewer of us, we often have slightly better paying jobs, we are independent in many ways for the first time in Russian history and I admire how well the young men have adopted to the equality in such a short time frame. Of all the many men I know I can't think of one who would not be pleasant to hang out with for the day, and never have to worry about him pulling anything unwanted.  It is a new Russia, many of the young people are very international in their views and experiences.

[Simoni]

Why are more men going to Ukraine and not France where there are closer compatibility of cultural experiences? The girls are just as pretty, and nice as in Ukraine.

Having spent time in Paris and Kiev, I can report this is not true.  Not even close.  The girls in Ukraine (and Moscow) are MUCH prettier than in France!

[ECOCKS]

Having spent time in Paris and Kiev, I can report this is not true.  Not even close.  The girls in Ukraine (and Moscow) are MUCH prettier than in France!

100% agreement with regard to UW and RW being more attractive and prettier.

[Diplomacy]

It depends on how one defines Russians.   I know ethnic Russians that live in Ukraine, but no friends in Russia Proper that I know of.  My vantage point is Ukraine and that I have a lot of friends in.  Both Eastern and Western.

I am seeing a lot of the same that you talk about amongst the 18-35 age group.  Great things really, just trying to get that point across too.  My guess is you are on the lower end of that range.  

Although I would very much caution you that many think the upper hand you speak of is perceived and easily diminished or negated.  Time tells that answer.

What brings you to the forum?

[Diplomacy]

I think you miss one point, it is the combination intellect, beauty, humor, playfulness, and refinement of the FSU women that set you apart.  The stubborn factor seems to be pretty close between French Women and FSUW

[Sculpto]

Having once been engaged with a French woman.. let me say simply.. Russian women are in a class by themselves.

I wouldn't get involved with another French woman under any circumstances.

[M_Diva]

What brings me here?  I was invited by letter by Dan, the moderator. I had some rather unpopular views on another forum and surprised them by defending my position with effectiveness....for a girl;>) I suppose he thought i would shake things up or at least offer a different view.

My posting briefly on the other forum was on the suggestion of close American friend who thought I would be interested in reading what was being said about Russia and Russians on that forum. He knew me well enough to know I enjoy a good debate. They of course think I am a crusty old Russian man who must be too drunk to understand their wisdom of being able to diagnose an entire 11 time zone wide country from the comfort and isolation of their easy chairs in front of Fox news. 6,000km away.
And these people claimed to want Russian women. The culture, government and men are hated but somehow the women escape their wrath.
I am interested in cultures, studied cultural anthropology and European languages at university and took a Masters degree from SPU. I really like to observe social behaviors and cultural differences, family types and structures.
Russia is caught between several traditions, a dominate female progenitor but lineage is taken from the male progenitor. Have you ever seen a Russian man make a major decision without consulting mother or grandmother?

Contrary to most outside opinions, there is a whole generation of young people are getting things done, having a ball doing it and would rather be here than anywhere else...except occasionally going somewhere with warm sand, hot breezes and palm trees. I work in the summer as a tour guide as in independent contractor for two major hotels and stay very busy for 4-5 months of the year. My living expenses are low, ridiculously low compared to Europe or the US so I can work on projects for fun or my curiosity during the winter and spring. My main expenses are food and shoes, I love high heels and little black dresses;>)

The photo I used was taken a few days ago(New Years day) by my GF who picked up my new Nikon D90 despite having never used a DSLR before  and just pressed the shutter release while I was watching a band in a pub. I liked the photo because it was so casual, without any intent to take it or knowing what she was doing. Usually I am taking photos of her and my other GFs so it is fair that she snuck up on me. I have been toying with the idea of doing photography for a living, I enjoy this new craft, primarily fashion, architecture and portraiture. I built up a little studio in my apartment to experiment and learn. I recently installed to 600w/s Monolights, softboxes, a beauty dish, and umbrellas and wireless triggers. The girls love to come over to play model while I play photographer. sometimes after a few glasses of wine it gets pretty wild and fun. I only modeled once myself, for a national catalog of juniors and sports wear and earned enough to buy my Toyota. Modeling is a lot of work for catalog work, about 180 outfits in only 8 days. I guess they liked it because I get calls frequently for print ads and TV but I have not done them. I think every Russian woman grows up with either the desire or innate talent for modeling. If I pick up a camera, even on the street, all the girls within view strike a pose and know which is their flattering side. That is good for an aspiring photographer since everyone I run across wants to model for me. Last week a few young ladies and one of their mothers came over and wanted Glamour shots for their BFs. That was great fun, we laughed so often and hard it was hard to get shots. We tried to make them as sexy as possible without being risque and the new lighting rig allowed some great lighting effects.
So, there it is, a long answer to a simple short question:>)
It is now 6am and I have still not gone to sleep yet...Good Night
Sweet Dreams

[Blues Fairy]

Have you ever seen a Russian man make a major decision without consulting mother or grandmother?

Sure. Plenty. 

The fact that Russian mothers and babushkas like to give unsolicited advice does not necessarily mean their advice is always taken.

[mspanky]

I am not sure how that part was misunderstood.

No, I did not mean or intend to say that cross cultural relationships are impossible, they are suspect for many people however since when all things are equal, such pairings are rare and perfectly satisfying, they just are not entered into often. When introducing modifiers of one type or another, say, a perceived large economic difference, the number of such relationship increase a lot. Why are more men going to Ukraine and not France where there are closer compatibility of cultural experiences? The girls are just as pretty, and nice as in Ukraine. Any why men are not going to say Moscow so much when the only real difference is level of optimism for current life.
Those seeking are using economic differences as a tool to attract a partner that might not otherwise be interested.

I think it takes a pretty open minded person to embrace another culture on other than the most superficial level and few people from any particular region or country are really open to adopting major changes to their cultural training.
If a person was just as likely to find a great relationship in a region where they had not "advantage", such as an American man going to France to pursue a relationship, I think the basis for the relationship would be on sounder footing because of the equality between the couple. Starting out with such a practical consideration as money does not bode well for a relationship to develop naturally by plain old attraction to a person. Is the same attraction there when a once economically unbalanced couple suddenly becomes balanced?  There are many case studies of these factors and I believe on an objective level, I am reading them correctly, as the evidence leads.
When I see a man come here to live as his new wife has lived, the nature of the relationship is entirely different than if she was to go to him, In the case of him going to fit into her life, the balance is immediate. When she, if poorer, goes to his greatest strength of difference, the imbalance is intensified for a few years. A higher percentage of imbalanced relationships fail than those where the people are from similar social class, economic class and shared cultural experiences.
Just as the studies predict, I see more successful relationships that start on equal footing than where there is a large difference in whatever elements define the relationship..money, attractiveness, education etc. I know dozens of western men who came here to St Petersburg to pursue a relationship and stayed. My best male friend is an American man, he came for the culture and stayed. I have no doubt he will find an appropriate partner right here...someday.

  Pretty observant for one so young.Stick around.

[Misha]

No, I did not mean or intend to say that cross cultural relationships are impossible, they are suspect for many people however since when all things are equal, such pairings are rare and perfectly satisfying, they just are not entered into often.

Why? I live in Canada, a country with a large immigrant population, and cross cultural relationships happen all the time. One of my best friends is a Romanian immigrant and his wife is Canadian. They have been happily married for over 20 years. Another friend is from Costa Rica and his wife is Canadian. I could go on with another few dozen examples. In many ways cross-cultural marriages are becoming the norm rather than the exception.

Those seeking are using economic differences as a tool to attract a partner that might not otherwise be interested.

Well, I am fortunate. My wife is the one who fell in love with me at first sight  She was attracted to me even before she know how much debt I had LOL 

I think it takes a pretty open minded person to embrace another culture on other than the most superficial level and few people from any particular region or country are really open to adopting major changes to their cultural training.

Why? I don't believe that it is so difficult to embrace another culture.

A higher percentage of imbalanced relationships fail than those where the people are from similar social class, economic class and shared cultural experiences.

What do you suggest? People should only enter into relationships with those people who are from the same similar social class, economic class, from the same culture, having the same experience? So, I grew up on a farm, moved to the city, started off in a working class family and would consider myself part of the middle class. I speak French, English and Russian. To be honest, I don't really know any women who fit into a similar social class, economic class and shared my cultural experiences. Using this criteria, I should have remained single Fortunately, my wife does not complain too much 

Just as the studies predict, I see more successful relationships that start on equal footing than where there is a large difference in whatever elements define the relationship..money, attractiveness, education etc.

I am curious. How old are you? Early twenties? I know many couples that are different, but complementary. It is not necessary for a couple to be identical in every way.

[vwrw]

This one reason I am not particularly convinced that cross cultural relationships are such a good idea for many people, too many practical aspect arise too early. .............

Some one is thinking much too seriously about gain through economic position, the woman for the prospect of gaining it and the man for using it as an attractant where otherwise his sparkling personality and wit were not enough if they were equals.

........... I dare say that as a whole young people of my age in larger cities in Russia have an economic advantage over similar age western people. We mostly own our homes free and clear, have no debt to speak of, have high educations and as much or more discretionary spending money. In the west, they are saddled with tremendous school debt for decades, and might not own a home clear for 30-40 years, and spend much more on monthly basic expenses.

True, the duration of life in FSU is shorter than in USA and as a result many of FSU’s young people have the advantage of inheriting apartment from died grandma whereas young Americans have to buy their first home and pay it out for 30 years .

True, many young Americans have school debts which they have to pay out for decades whereas most FSU’s young people obtain their education at expenses of their parents.

Therefore, you probably right that young people from FSU may have more surplus money to  spend on  their whims. However, do these considerations not seem to you as pragmatic approach  in evaluation of possibilities?  Are your rationales for preferring local men not less pragmatic than  those rationales of the women who preferred cross-cultural relationships for the prospect of gaining economic position ( as you said it)?

[Vaughn]

Why? I don't believe that it is so difficult to embrace another culture.

Around here, Misha, you are considered exceptional. Local AM in North Carolina
have trouble adapting to the ways in neighboring counties.