Envy and understanding

[Diplomacy]

Before the rise and fall of the Iron curtain IMO the Russians and Americans were both of equal power at the end of WW2(Great Patriotic War) other than of course the A Bomb.

For many decades IMO the Olympics were the barometer of world prowess for the Russians citizens.  So they were believing that they were keeping up with the World in at least some of the average citizens minds.

Then comes the fall of the curtain and the wealthy could go to America and see the reality of the decades.  Come back and report what they have seen.

Intellect is very subjective IMO.  It really depends if you are talking to someone schooled in a similar discipline and if you are being taught from the same vantage point.

A large percentage of the Russians in power still believe a lot of the Anti-American propaganda as truth. 

Of course the truth is most likely in the middle somewhere.  I am sure we did some undermining against Russian, just as they were undermining us within the citizens of Russia.

What does everyone think, right on, way out in left field?

Are we in a situation where nobody can change unless we can get people together that will be neutral?

Is it in fact Envy we are dealing with?

[Shadow]

Just look around and you will see that a lot of anti-Russian propaganda also still is believed.
The truth is always in the middle (though not in Europe ) and most history is written from the eyes of the victor, then re-written as time goes forward.

The problem is that different people have their own way of solving conflicts. Without having knowledge of customs and way of thinking of the other side, it is likely to create misunderstandings.

It has nothing to do with intelligence or schooling, but all with the will to see each others point of view.

[ECOCKS]

I don't know.  It seems that we each had equally well-thoughtout propaganda campaigns, but I look around and see that ours seems to have disseminated much less fiction and left an understanding considerably closer to fact. 

I get questions from older students about Cheyenne Mountain, civil rights, conscription of our military and the like which give me glimpses.  Talking to my wife about the YP and comparing it to her perception of the Boy and Girl Scouts was enlightening.  I had a pretty fair understanding of what Young Pioneers was and how it worked.  She seems to have a lot of mis/disinformation on the subject.  That seems representative when I compare the various questions and discussions. 

Particularly, the area of control seems to be completely upside down.  I get numerous questions which indicate that there was a generally held belief that government was far more active in day-to-day affairs than was actually the case.  Lots of questions about how the government forced Hollywood to do things, the plight of the civil rights movement, numerous near-revolutions, etc.  Revisionist history comes up often.  I haven't heard or seen much that indicates the "propaganda" I was fed was wrong.

[Diplomacy]

I am not old enough to remember the US propaganda.  In my readings though it looked like the white house was very much trying to befriend Russia and support them for their immense contributions to the war.

On the sidelines Hoover never liked them and was chomping at the bit.  He got that ammo when there was information handed over by a man that defected to Canada.  It proved that there was a spy network, one of Britain's top scientists was actually working for the Russians.

[ECOCKS]

I meant more the social side.

My wife has some stories about YP projects and how the young people of the day spent their time.  Some of the projects strike me as meeting a Soviet objective but thast is little different from the CCC and WPA projects in US history.  The older men often have some fond memories of the military service, I have seen pictures from one friend's tour of duty in an intelligence unit in Cuba at the same time I was at Gitmo.

The key has been in the questions they ask.  The Colorado Bug, American oppression of our minorities, provocative saber-rattling in Europe and so on.

People are people, unfortunately, governments are governments.

[kievstar]

There is a strong hate of countries in power in this world.  Many jealous people and countries. 

USA media back in the 1970's and early 1980's in television and other avenues made Russia to be bad and wanting to nuke us.  Russia media probably did the same to make USA look bad. 

Europe does not like USA very much now as USA can do what they want and not much Europe can do about it. 

Powers change over time but jealous and envious countries do not.  Amazing how weak western Europe is in todays age but 100 years ago was strong. 

Who will be the next super power?  Russia has failed twice in past 30 years.  China and India continue to struggle.  USA will not continue to be the super power it is as the younger generation is very lazy or illegal in the country.

Hard to think of a country with a strong military and a young generation willing to promote country instead of materialistic gain.  Maybe USA has another 50 years as no good contender out there. 

[Shadow]

Modern day wars are not fought on the battlefield. Except some countries where they live in the past, warfare is changed to the economies.

[mrs.Shadow]

Since Gorbatchev times I did not see anti-American propaganda. And after watching American and European news I saw that anti-Russian propaganda is over taking...
Most noticed in anti-Russian propaganda: America and England, that is my opinion. Though I see that Europe little by little changes its view on Russia to more positive, probably because of more integration of business.

The thing is that most Russians make their opinion on America from American movies. And they like America. But with the contact (arriving to America) many of them have to be disappointed. But it is not on political view, just big difference between knowledge about country from movies and direct contact.

My personal opinion is:

USA and Russia are not that enemies as it looks like, and on "unknown" side both countries have some deal to lead in some important for them aspects. And all propaganda is just a scenario, which both agree to run.
For us all - they are fighting in politics, and in reality there sitting representatives from both countries and discussing "okay, what else can we do to share the areas of selling weapons?". I do not have facts so do not demand it from me  . Just some opinion, that comes sometimes.

[I/O]

The Shadows: Guys, I enjoy your posts and have every respect for both of you, however I think you might be living "In the Shadows" a little based on your last couple of posts.

Mrs Shadow: I think most "Romantics" would beleive it is so. I am not a romantic.

Mr Shadow: You seem to imply that the war of economics is something new. I disagree. I also suspect there may be some Americans, Europeans, Mid Easterners, Russians, Georgians, Australians, English..............etc who are presently grieving the loss of a loved one in a war zone somewhere who would be surprised by the dismissal of the "Battlefield" as a bygone reality.

I/O

[BC]

It would be interesting to compare US/RU school history books from the 60's to 80's, not only to compare views taught and change over time, but also to see what is missing on either or both sides.

[kievstar]

I am 37 years old now but when I was in school we learned history to 1920.  In college I took business and skipped history.

But I lived in Texas / Michigan for school and we had 1 year of Texas history, 1 year of English history up to civil war, 2 years of ancient history. USA history was very boring.  Ancient history and Texas was more interesting. 

But my current friends in USA say the following about Russia / Ukraine.  Do not trust them, there all spies, women are hot, women are gold diggers, Putin is evil, where is Ukraine, is Ukraine really a country.  Notice only one positive thing - women are hot.  That is do to Russian female tennis players and Russian dancers on dancing with the stars.  Many people in USA do no trust Russians or know anything about the country Ukraine let alone it exists.  Many movies in 1980's had Russians as evil. 

[BC]

But my current friends in USA say the following about Russia / Ukraine.  Do not trust them, there all spies, women are hot, women are gold diggers, Putin is evil, where is Ukraine, is Ukraine really a country.  Notice only one positive thing - women are hot.  That is do to Russian female tennis players and Russian dancers on dancing with the stars.  Many people in USA do no trust Russians or know anything about the country Ukraine let alone it exists.  Many movies in 1980's had Russians as evil. 

Sorta like when I went to High School for the first time in the US after living in Italy..  What kind of boat did you have?  How long did it take you to drive here?  This was back in the late 70's.

The US is for the most part geographically challenged.  Simply too large and too isolated for a majority of the population to gain real travel experiences overseas and mix with other cultures.  Immigration has helped a bit, but it's still more of an oil/water type thing, passing on only scarce second hand impressions, maybe mostly from taxi drivers who seem to be great ambassadors.  Heck even the Italian restaurant staff could not speak a word of Italian, much less present a pizza or pasta that qualified as 'Italian'..  these were normal places, not the high end.

I learned quite a bit about Ethiopia during my last visit to DC (we took a lot of taxi's).  Were it not for the convention we attended, between lodging, food and transportation we would have met precious few descendants from the first waves of immigrants to the US.

[Diplomacy]

The bulk of the first wave stayed in New England, New York, Chicago and California.  It is a shame, there are some authentic Italian cooking going on there.  Even to the point, you can chose Northern, Sicilian, and other regional specific cuisine.

I grew up in New England and had plenty of first generation immigrants.  7 Fish for Christmas Eve, was a must get invite in my town.  I was told it represent the 7 hills of Rome.  True?  Oh, and the Tre Beans Sambuca always. 

If you were served without, it meant get the heck out of there.  Trouble was around, unfortunately we had a few assisted suicides in my otherwise peaceful town.

[ECOCKS]

Hollywood doesn't help the Ukraine/Russian image.

My wife laughed at the scenes in The Italian Job portraying the Ukrainian mafia guy.  Also the Lord of War doesn't exactly paint a favorable picture either.  Even that Elijah Wood movie, Everything is Illuminated, makes this area of the world out as a bunch of con artist/scamming opportunistic wannabes.

Yes, the sports stars and legendary beauty of the women is a big factor in the little bit of positive press.  Yet even that sort of hurts as it comes across more like a, "Well yeah, they're pretty screwed up but they got some damn fine looking women so lets cut them some slack!"

But mostly the negative images these last few years seems to be resulting from the headlines about perpetual corruption of the officials, murdered journalists, rebellious citizenry, unpredictable business climate, the odd invasion or two, political blustering and general chaos in this area of the world that builds the reputation as criminals, power mongers and buffoons.

[Simoni]

The key has been in the questions they ask.  The Colorado Bug, American oppression of our minorities, provocative saber-rattling in Europe and so on.

People are people, unfortunately, governments are governments.

Future MIL was not at all interested in American suitors for her daughter. 

She was quick to  strike back at me over the Colorado Potato Bug.  I did not even dare to tell her that the Soviet Union used them for propaganda, claiming that the beetles had been dropped by the United States Army Air Forces, when in fact that was not true.

It took a long time, but I finally won her over in terms of my relationship with her daughter. 

The victory came when she sent me a package, when her daughter flew to me in the US.  Inside the package, I found a pill bottle, with one little Colorado Potato Bug inside.

[ECOCKS]

OMG!

She sent YOU a Potato BUG!?!

  

That is so wonderfully rich in symbolism and subtle communications!

And you thought you were a lucky man for the daughter?!?   

Sounds like a wonderful MIL as well!

 

[Shadow]

The Shadows: Guys, I enjoy your posts and have every respect for both of you, however I think you might be living "In the Shadows" a little based on your last couple of posts.

Mrs Shadow: I think most "Romantics" would beleive it is so. I am not a romantic.

Mr Shadow: You seem to imply that the war of economics is something new. I disagree. I also suspect there may be some Americans, Europeans, Mid Easterners, Russians, Georgians, Australians, English..............etc who are presently grieving the loss of a loved one in a war zone somewhere who would be surprised by the dismissal of the "Battlefield" as a bygone reality.

I/O

There are just as many worrying about being a casualty of the latest wave of job losses.

Being a casualty of 'old style' war is a lot worse,as you are bound to lose your life. But you might even look more closer and see that  wars are a way of pushing the economy in a direction. Just look at the timing and effects on world economy, and you will see patterns.

[ECOCKS]

Wars are usually rooted in economics, occasionally in idealogies.

Of course, idealogies are often rooted in economics as well. 

[Sculpto]

I can't think of a single positive portrayal of Russians in any Hollywood media, from the Cold War until now. 

Red Dawn
Rocky
Recent Law and Order episode that had Russian guy who used to "sell women" but now sold endangered animals.

The ultimate was McCain's comment about Putin.

We know far too little as a nation about the FSU.  Before I went to Moscow the reaction I got from people I told about my trip was "watch out for the Mafia" or "Watch out for the police, you know they are corrupt right?"

On the other hand, I would have to disagree that Russian media is not making propoganda that shows the USA in a negative light.  One look at pravda.ru should be enough to recognize there is a strong official anti US message being promoted.  I try to watch Russia Today as often as possible, it comes on every night about 9pm here in SF on the "diversity" channel right after DWTV and right before the Korean broadcast and they also have Italian tv News, Chinese, Pinay, Pakistani, Afgani, Indian and on occasion Al Jazeera.  Anyway, Mr. LaVelle is quite adept at making the US look bad, and, they always seem to find some US pundit who will back up the often bizarre ideas being promoted.

During my time in Mexico I was exposed to a different kind of anti US message.  In that country, amoung intellectuals, the message is really anti imperialist.  They argue against imperialism in military conquest but more often in economic imperialism.  There is considerable legitimacy in that critique and the entire "fair trade" movement is being popularized as a result of decades of activism from outside the US.

[mrs.Shadow]

Ideology is a tool to control masses. Wars are not based on ideology. But wars are based on economic aspects. And here both, USA and Russia, have the same "products".
When you see how two world giants managing to sell weapons all over the world without disturbing each other, you can come logically to the point, that not everything is like mass media brings to you, and both countries have a very good knowledge what to sell where and when.

For controlling masses and showing that "everything is alright in our country" governments need an "enemy"... Fighting with which can unite people of the country and forget about own problems.

That is why I will not be surprised that USA and Russia have their "deal" for running politics. At least I never saw any scandal between both countries about weapons selling to others, though those "others" are shooting and fighting each other.

[I/O]

though those "others" are shooting and fighting each other.

War by proxy?

I/O

[SANDRO43]

7 Fish for Christmas Eve, was a must get invite in my town.  I was told it represent the 7 hills of Rome. True? 

Never heard of it before. Rome's traditional Xmas Eve dish is fried capitone (eel).

[Diplomacy]

Ahh that is no good at all, my childhood was a lie.

[ECOCKS]

I can't think of a single positive portrayal of Russians in any Hollywood media, from the Cold War until now. 

Red Heat with Ahnald?

Couple of the James Bond flicks but I forget the names.

[siberia]

Never heard of it before. Rome's traditional Xmas Eve dish is fried capitone (eel).

Sandro, In the USA the 7 fishes dinner on Christmas Eve is a Sicilian tradition. As is eating baccala that night also.  I imagine as it is with many American traditions, it is based on an Old World tradition rather than being copy of it.  Of course, the commonality is the no meat, only fish for Christmas Eve.