maybe they should rename these agencies...

[Nastya]

Bruno
When an old man is hunting for a sexy babe - perhaps he wants to be a  sugar daddy?!? I mean if you hunt for sex and you'll probably get it  AND there are no conterfeits for sex - you either get it or you don't.  So its a matter of defining what one wants, I guess.

BC
65 euros for a cup of coffee?! Thats a rip-off!!!! :brightidea: Treat 'em with water and juice instead - introduce healthy eathing habits LOL

[Aleksia]

I think Nastya is right. Most of the women in Russia now, or Ukraine, etc. can afford to pay for themselves. If a girl is young, she is trying to get something for free, but again, not all this way. It will be wrong to generalize these things.

I have heard about a lot of foreign men who are taking girls to McDonald on the first meeting.

[Farrel]

THANKS Aleksia Now I'm not one voice in the desert!!

[Aleksia]

Anono, look at this from a different side. You are inviting a woman to meet. She offers a restaurant. You deny and suggest going to the coffee shop. What should she think? Many women, especially who are experienced in meeting with the foreign men, or read a lot of stories in Internet, will assume that a man is cheap, trying to save money on them. Please, understand, I do not call you this, I am telling you how a woman can think. I understand you as well, that you want them to be interested in you, and not in what you can give them. But you have to see things from their prospective as well. So, it's a difficult situation from both sides.

[Leslie]

Hi,

You know this can only happen on the first couple of dates.  The way to control this is very simple.  You are paying.  You decide where to go. 

I had a woman try to take me to "Mandarin" (in Kyiv) on a first date.  I said no.  I got the familiar line so I replied we can go anywhere you like if you are paying :cool:

Women who try this on are NOT worth bothering with. 

Sure you can go to a fancy restaurent but later.  On the third or fourth date.

If you want to lead with your wallet go right ahead.  A man makes his own decisions.  Just dont post on the board when you have been taken for a ride.  Over the years I have read hundreds of stories like this. 

I have no sympathy for stupidity.

 

[Admin]

I have no sympathy for stupidity.

The problem is distinguishing between "stupidity" and mere "ignorance." The way I see it, if a guy has the disposable income/reserve to waste on one of these gals, it is pretty likely he isn't "stupid" - at least, from the perspective of intelligence and cognitive ability to learn. To have amassed that disposal income/reserve, he probably (nothing is absolute, of course) had to demonstrate somewhere along the way a modicum (at least) of intelligence - hence, the "stupidity" label is not exactly accurate.

"Ignorance," on the other hand, is an entirely different matter and is entirely possible to afflict a VERY large segment of the men traveling to the FSU. In that regard, RWD is positioned to offer assistance to overcome that ignorance and help, through education, to reduce (or eliminate) the scamming behavior as much as possible.

- Dan

[Bruno]

Stupidity manifested by the educated

Recently a great deal of attention has been paid to another class of stupidity: stupid actions by those that are highly educated and worldly. It is an important subject as it is increasingly evident that powerful, and generally very intelligent, people sometimes do stupid things. In recent years a number of notions such as groupthink have been developed to explain this. This is a fairly new topic for researchers and there are still few academic works on the subject, though in the 19th Century Oscar Wilde wrote There is no sin except stupidity.

Otherwise intelligent individuals may also become stupid when their rational thought is derailed by strong opinions or rigid beliefs. In this case the victim falls into confirmation bias and begins selecting data: becoming intentionally blind and deaf to contrary evidence, while at the same time collecting evidence which supports the beliefs. Rather than being based on low intelligence or missing knowledge, this is the stupidity of closed-mindedness and willful ignorance. Note that modern science specifically evolved to combat this form of stupidity. During scientific thought we constantly criticise our own beliefs and assumptions (attempt to disprove hypotheses), while also using humility and extreme self-honesty to reduce our ego-based biases.

The Encyclopedia of Stupidity by Matthijs van Boxel is based on the author's contention that "stupidity is in fact the foundation of our civilization" and his idea that no one is intelligent enough to realise how stupid they are. This is not as stupid as it sounds if one includes in the definition of stupidity "unwitting self-destruction, the ability to act against one's best wishes". A saying attributed to Albert Einstein is "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Therefore stupidity is not solely the opposite of intelligence but may also be considered a very human kind of flawed or mistaken intelligence, the darkness that makes the light of true intelligence visible.

 

 

[Leslie]

Dan,

Bruno undrstands me well

I think any intelligent guy could spend a few evenings reading the archived posts and stories and come to the general conclusion that guys who try to buy their dreams very rarely get what they pay for.....

This still does not prevent a percentage of these guys acting in precisely the same way.  Robert correctly asesses their reasoning.  Money is the only card they have to play....

Short first dates are a good strategy.  If you like each other a second (longer) date is easily organized. If you dont well an hour can seem like an eternity but it is soon over.

Most guys grow out of the strategy that you can "buy" a first date in High School. 

 Remember.  You have rare tickets to a pop concert and you ask a good looking popular girl to come with you.  You reason she will say yes because she will want to go to the concert and then you imagine she will become your girlfriend !  The bubble bursts when she tells you no or worse still goes to the event with you and flirts with other guys....

If you offer an expensive sushi dinner date to entice a woman on a first date then you are playing the same game!!  Only the women are way foxier than in High school. 

In Kyiv there are a lot of women who sponge off foriegners as a career:hairraising:

I dont want to argue this point further.  Any guy reading this thread can come to his own conclusions. 

 

[jb]

Leslie,

Don't feel bad, I've recited this same point countless times.   Regarding sending sums of money monthly, lavishing expensive gifts upon  a girl you've only met a few days ago, or din-din in expensive places  as a first date when a simple coffee or juice would do, is nuts.   Whenever I say it as a generality, ie., "it's not a good plan to try to  buy a wife", everyone agrees.  Yet when I point out the error of  ways to an individual, ie., "things went badly because you attempted to  buy a wife", I can count on getting an arguement, a lot of,,, "this  case was special", or simply, (Doug's favorite),  "you just don't  understand".  Sadly I do understand, the man's wallet was the only  thing he had to offer and he quickly threw it in the ring.

This is especially applicable when a middle aged guy goes for the teeny  bopper.  If a man truly thinks money and experience can buy youth  and beauty, then I sit back and wait for the horror story to come.

[andrewfi]

But, on the other hand, sometimes, I will take an attractive woman out on a date to an expensive restaurant and do the whole bit, simply because I want to! The times are usually very pleasant, everyone knows their role and at the least I am not planning marriage, or at least not one that lasts longer than a night or two.

I think that problems arise when guys confuse what one might do for fun with what they are wanting to do. For sure, I would not be acting the same way if I was thinking of marriage (or maybe I might, given that I have the gift of time.)

[jb]

Yes, Andrew, been there, done that..... About a million times.

However, I don't see the correllation between you wining and dining one  local lady in hopes of scoring big in the short term, and a guy who  flies half way 'round the world on a WS/N?VM excursion.  You are  splurging for one woman for one evening, he expects to date two or  three women per day for a week or ten days.

To my feeble mind, there's a world of difference

[andrewfi]

I know, that is what I wrote, but at the same time, guys coming over here see what happens around them and do the same thing, or perhaps, if they are actively dating in their own community (unlikely, I know!), they maybe also do the same thing as I and others without recognising the differnence and thinking that this is what is expected, or the norm.

Monkey see, monkey do!

Especially when encouraged by fear of rejection, pressure from women and agency reps such as interpreters and of course what they read on discussion boards.

A nieve wife hunter does not know the dynamic that applies whenhe goes to a restaurant, or bar and sees foreign guys and locals splashing out on nice meals in the company of some enviable bit of totty! His wife hunt is my evening treat, but they can both look exactly the same.

 

[BC]

Everyone likes to be king (or queen) for one day..

It is the foolish that think it will last longer..

[jb]

Ooops posted in the wrong thread

[Nastya]

Leslie
Great line: "[size="3"]You are paying. You decide where to go.[/size]"

For all of yous out there searching: Common sense!! And more common  sense And thank you Aleksia for speaking up for Russian women.

[rusty32861]

Right on brother Right on I like the way you think

[Photo Guy]

Yes- common sense. But, a guy often has to walk a fine line that requires an artful approach, an approach that is sensitive to her reaction to your spending or lack of spending.

On one hand, you don't want her to get the impression that her possible future with you will be an extravagant lifestyle. (unless that actually IS your plan) On the other hand, she KNOWS you are a 'rich' Westerner, who is seeing her during the course of spending thousands of dollars on travel expenses. It's natural for her to want to see a glimmer of that wealth.

Those are two opposing forces. I could be wrong, but I think scammers are focused on the latter idea of your role as 'rich Westerner', while a nice benevolent angel/whore potential fiancee will simply follow your lead of spending in a sensible manner.
Aren't most of these women frugal? I mean, aren't they
very conscious of spending and budgeting in their day to day lives?
A contientious woman will not throw that sensibility away, will they? ...During the course of casual conversation, tell them 'Money does not grow on trees.'  And watch to see if the seed of that idea begins to grow. The appropriate woman will latch onto your mindset, won't they?

[andrewfi]

Photoguy ~ many people are frugal, but not all. A 'cultural difference' if you will is that hereabouts may guys are willing to spend what they have in the pursuanceof a goal, be it hedonistic or practical. Other groups, such as Americans, might end to save for a rainy day.

In practical terms this means that a guy who is in pursuit of a woman may well be willing to spend a chunk of money in buying nice things, going to nice places etc and eating pasta when not with the object of his affections. The result being that most women who are pursued by men (and that is by no means all, but is MOST  of the wome you guys are chasing - natch!) are accustomed to guys who a re not penny pinchers. Many guys from what I read here would be considered 'selfish' by loacl standards. It is a criticism that has been recently levelled at me. My response was that I was in the processs of setting up a bsuiness, buyng stuff and spending for the future. I would be more wealthy next year than I was last year, but the guys to whom she was comparing me would still be poor next year. Our relationship has since taken a turn for the worse...

Whay you guys need to do is to manage expectations. This can be done in many ways, but the bottom line is that you will not get far with a genuine and attractive woman unless you are able to meet or exceed local standards. Act like a pauper, count money, even mention money in front of your date and your stock will fall. If you do not want to spend too much money then do not do expensive things. If your managed standards are not high enough then she will move on and you both learned.

Of course this money stuff ignores the emotional aspects. If you feel you need money to impress a woman then you are the wrong man in the wrong place. This is like buying expensive jewellery or stuff. If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. Same here. If you are worried about money issues and how it appears, you can not afford the environment/woman/lifestyle. Play at your own level, not lower and not higher.

'A-ha!' you say, 'how do we know what our level is when we are in a new environment?' Simple answer is that you do not and that is why you need to spend time, in the environment, learning, in the environment. A week is not enough. Don't spend enough time and you store up problems for the future. The less well off you are, the harder it is. It is much easier to play below your level than it is to play above, but if your natural level is low, then life is very hard as you are much more likely to be out of your league.

Remember, the poor man's 'gold digger' is the rich man's 'good girl'! It all depends on the relative positons of the players!

[jb]

Quite right Andrew,

The advice I gave to a few others, men who are now happily married for some years, is to make up your mind to the folowing:

1.)  This endevor will probably take more than 2-3 years to  complete to a satisfactory end.  If you are in a hurry to get  married this is prolly not the way you want to go.

2.)  Make up your mind as to the real reason you want to visit the  FSU.  Are you seriously looking for a wife, or,,, are you just  wanting to go someplace cheap where you can party and hopefully have  unlimited sex with the pretty young girls?  You can shine us on,  but you should, at least, be honest with yourself.   Once you  are in-country you might be surprised at how little money it takes on a  per/day basis to do the former, while the latter can or will be  expensive.

3.)  Evaluate yourself and your g/f with a cold detachment.   Always remember you don't know this woman very well after a single one  or two week visit.  Asking yourself questions is always a good  idea, but you must do it when not in the presence of a pretty and  willing young woman.  Those questions should include some  self-reflection about the relative maturity of yourself and the lady if  she's under 30 and you are over 45, and the age differences you think  you can deal with once the object of your affection has landed in your  home town. That dream-come-true young beauty might be fun while there,  but become a nightmare at home.  If, upon sober reflection,  there's any chance the girl at your side will be mistaken for your  daughter rather than your mate, then a step back might be in order.

4.)  Language barriers are always just exactly that, a barrier to  the development of a good relationship.  Rushing to the altar with  a woman with whom you cannot exchange complex thought pictures with is  foolhardy.  Either learn to speak Russian or stick to those women  who already have some English ability.

5.)  Red flags are still red flags, there are no pink ones or  yellow ones.  It is delusional to view bad traits seen in a  potential mate as merely percentage points towards the possibility of a  good marriage or a failed K-1.  Be 100% sure before you select a  girl at random and rush to complete a I-129F.

These, and other common sense points, have been repeatedly hammered  home by the men who have been there before and are successfully married  today.  I have become immune to the protestations of one week  wonders as they seek to justify their bad decision making processes,  they will always be there with an excuse as to why they are doing  stupid things.  These same men are usually fairly bright in all  other areas, but when it comes to women they are just plain double dumb.

MOB agencies are not usually in the business to see an end to their  cash flow, they don't want to see you marry and leave as a  customer.  If all their girls got married today, they'd be out of  business tomorrow.  At $25-30 per introduction and $10 per round  trip e-mail translation, plus whatever expense money they can squeeze  out of a client while on a visit, it behoves the agency to introduce a  man to as many pretty faces of non-compatable women as possible.   I believe this agency practice has spawned the birth of the  pro-daters.  That's why I've said not to take advice from the  agency owner or agency employees.  They know if you leave without  having found a proper mate you will be back in six months and meanwhile  the cash cow just keeps giving milk.

Of course, it's only my opinion, I've been wrong before.

[BC]

jb,

If it weren't for hormones, pheromones, hermoans and hisgroans your guide would be practically infallible..

..all amazing stuff that override any and all forms of logic, history (experience) and plain ol' good common sense.

[anono]

hi folks..haven't visited the board lately so i just got to this...

interesting post about stupidity/ignorance bruno...

i think i am fairly bright, certainly not stupid but i DID do a lot of ignorant things (and will for the rest of my life, i am afraid) on my first trips here.

for instance, my first "dates" to expensive restuarants....  my thinking? i spend more than $100 back home (then the USA) to take a lesser woman to dinner..why not here? (in kiev).

i had no clue back then, as to what was going on....  you'll never see me do most of the things i did 2-3 years ago

in fact, i cannot post most of what is going on over here because many cannot handle the truth, or do not want to hear it..

leslie is totally correct...  living off foreigners is an industry..an---- INDUSTRY--- here...

i see the same women, same terps, same restaurants, different FOREIGN guy...just did tonight at TGIF...

it is all about money..it just matters to what degree..  

i think i need to emphasize..  IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY.....

you have the prostitutes, which is as "transparent" as it gets..  or you can go to the other extreme, for instance, my yuliya who, on the surface, wants absolutely NOTHING.

but, she knows, simply because i am an american and can afford to come here, i must surely be able to provide financial security.

maybe i should say, it is MOSTLY about money;)))))

i do think she loves me a little bit

[anono]

'A-ha!' you say, 'how do we know what our level is when we are in a new environment?' Simple answer is that you do not and that is why you need to spend time, in the environment, learning, in the environment. A week is not enough. Don't spend enough time and you store up problems for the future. The less well off you are, the harder it is. It is much easier to play below your level than it is to play above, but if your natural level is low, then life is very hard as you are much more likely to be out of your league.

 

Да!   right on andrew

 

i'm sorry photo, but when i read your posts..i just can't help but thinking..man, the guy has no clue...

Aren't most of these women frugal? I mean, aren't they
very conscious of spending and budgeting in their day to day lives?
A contientious woman will not throw that sensibility away, will they? ...During the course of casual conversation, tell them 'Money does not grow on trees.'  And watch to see if the seed of that idea begins to grow. The appropriate woman will latch onto your mindset, won't they?

these women will eat you alive doug....

i will never cease to be amazed at the time and effort some of these women will put forth for a $30 handbag. or to get you to pay an $18 bar bill.

sure, they are going to be "very conscious of spending and budgeting" THEIR MONEY..

wait till you see what they will do with YOUR money.........if you have any.