Greetings from Odessa

[aikorob]

Good Morning folks,

I am currently sitting in a flat on Deribasovskaya as I write this. This is my second trip back to see N ; and meet her parents as well.

First, some observations about the city--this is my fourth trip in the past 2 years, and Odessa is growing-somebody has some money to invest. The pace of building seems to have picked up in the past 6 months; there are lots of complete renovations and sprucing up, especially in the central area. If I had a chunk of money to spare, it would go in real estate here. I also noticed several streets that were being re-done, as well as many sidewalks (yes, there were people actually working).

 

 

[aikorob]

I think Anono and others have a VERY valid point about the newer ladies from the agencies. I was the second westerner to meet N (the first was a guy doing WMVM and told her he could only spare an hour--not a good first impression of Americans). She is very serious about marriage--she is just not too keen to leave Odessa though. Her parents have been married 34 years, so she has that ideal to strive for. With her parents being together that long, she has seen the ups and downs of a family, and she is realistic that it will not be a fairy tale. My parents have been married 55 years now, so I know as well.

We have been very practical in our talks-- not very romantic. We started writing before Christmas last year, first visit back in April, and more chats and letters. Neither of us has raised the "L"word, after all with such little face time it would really be the thrill of newness, not solid. I think we have built a solid foundation of hopes and plans for a future. We share similar goals and dreams; we are just not sure if it will be together.

After the first UW I brought home (jb and Maxx may remember the story) I am keeping "Mr. Happy" out of the plans for the moment. It is so easy to be caught by a fine pair of legs or a tight popka that you lose sight of the long term goal.

Her English is excellent, no intepreter needed, and that has been another big help getting to know her. How can you plan a life together if you can't even talk to each other? If your lady does not speak English, and is ambivilant about learning, that is a huge flag about her seriousness.

[philb]

Her English is excellent, no intepreter needed, and that has been another big help getting to know her. How can you plan a life together if you can't even talk to each other? If your lady does not speak English, and is ambivilant about learning, that is a huge flag about her seriousness.

Excellent point.  I read posts where people complain about interpreters.  My thought is always what are they doing trying to develop a relationship with someone they can not communicate with in the first place.  That is the the real problem not the interpreters.

As far as the agencies, I would avoid them like the avian flu virus (thought it was a little more appropriate than the plague).  The quality of women and men they are designed to attract is suspect from the start and the decent people whom they do attract can quickly become jaded (as you note).

Good Luck.

[aikorob]

Thanks Phil,

I'll take all the luck I can get. Had a major glitch in plans Monday afternoon. N works as chief accountant at "champagne factory"(as she calls it) and it is time for quarterly tax filing--which means she has to run all over Odessa to different offices to file these papers. Well, she was extremely sick last week, and the weather here has been rainy, windy and in the low 40's. So she had a relapse, and got to spend 24 hrs in the hospital; thankfully she is out now and we will be together after her work today.

What most of us guys have to do is a version of speed-dating, only we have to go past all of the "introductory"questions. N and I have been discussing everything from how we handle finances, ideas about decorating the house, children or not and so on. Communication is the key, and getting everything out in the open now, rather than having a surprise 91 days after she arrives will make things better in the long run. I know it is not romantic, to be discussing everything, but our general situation requires it.

As for agencies; the past 2 trips, I have only used a agency for flats. I know central Odessa well enough to function on my own while she is at work. My hat is off to Anono and others who are able to stay in country for weeks at a time.

Another point for the new guys (one that Donna P used to be adamant about)-girls don't like a WMVM guy. On my first trip to Odessa in Sept 2003, I started writing about 15 ladies, after 2-3 letters, I told them I was writing others as well. More than half ended correspondance then, so by the time I arrived here, I only met with 5. All of them said they understood why I  was meeting others (because of time/ distance) but none of them was happy about it.

[andrewfi]

Of course the women are not happy about it. That does not mean you should not do it though.

From the perspective of the woman seeking a foreign guy, sharing your attention with others is very dangerous. This has nothing to do with love or affection and everything to do with not sharing the lottery ticket, after all, in the end there can be only one winner! If a woman makes her seeing of you contingent upon abandoning others, dump her forthwith!

[Leslie]

Hi Aikorob,

I remember your story from RWG.  Play the dating game with rules that you are comfortable with.  You are correct when you say -

"Another point for the new guys (one that Donna P used to be adamant about)-girls don't like a WMVM guy"

But only if you qualify it by saying SOME girls.   Some women don't want to compete for a man's affection.  They want to call the shots.  This is certainly the case with Donna Pedro.  If you are attacted by this type of woman well WOVO is for you. 

When I was dating I had a simple rule.  If a woman started playing up because I was dating other women I dumped her.  No arguements.  No discussion.  There are hundreds of attractive, available women in Ukraine for every DECENT guy who makes the trip. 

This type of controlling behaviour is a RED FLAG.  If a woman begins by attempting to shut your options down how will it be when you are married??

 

[aikorob]

Leslie,

That attitude was from ALL of the girls I wrote to before my trip in Sept 2003. I didn't have to shut any of them down, it was their descision not to continue correspondance. Personally it was hard for me to keep every one of them straight, so when I made another trip in April, I made the descision to only write and visit one (with backups of course!). 

 Now that I'm back, things continue to go well between N. and I, our correspondance has more talk of future plans and deeper questions. The only bad thing is her monitor died last week, so no more ICQ, she has to go to internet cafe to write:(

[Leslie]

Hi Aikorob,

If you want to write to someone for several weeks (or months) then I reckon you are right - most women will expect you to travel to meet only them.  It is a matter of investment.  Why spend your time writing to someone (especially if you have to use an Internet cafe) when your future prospect  is only to be one of several options??

It does not make sense.

My wife and ALL of her friends at the agencies won't engage in long correspondence.  They have learned the hard fact - 9 out of 10 guys never make the trip.  Writing more than a dozen letters is just not worth the effort.  They will exchange introductory letters with a guy who is visiting soon.  They will meet guys that visit if the terp gossip suggests the guy is normal.  Write 3-4 e-mails a week for 6 months to a guy who may never get his ass on the plane - NO CHANCE.  The agency staff can do that!

I wish you luck with your relationship.  I hope things work out well for you.  WOVO does work sometimes.  Like every approach you need some luck.  I think it is a beginners approach.  Everyone starts out by writing a few letters.  I personally think it is a very poor strategy for finding a wife.  

Of course you play the dating game any way you want to.... 

 

[anono]

hi leslie, good to see you posting again.

you are right about the terps. jim naseum is doing very well in kyiv. word got out that the ladies he met liked him and he is very successful with the women. then the competition starts.

jim's main girl likes going out with me because she says "he is the only normal one". i told her to just wait ;-)...  if this poor girl thinks i'm "normal", it gives a lot of you guys hope after all.

this speaks volumes about the kind of men these women are meeting. even if the guy is halfway decent, he blows it in another way, by using his wallet or his US passport as some sort of bait, thinking this impresses these women.

i was told by an agency owner in poltava: "there is an american living here. when he first arrived, he acted as if the fact he was an american was good enough to be interested in him. he doesn't act that way now." i guess the guy learned real quick that the ladies were not impressed.

i think a lot of guys go into this not realizing they are meeting some of the best educated white women in the world. at least better educated than they are used to back home. if it isn't education, they are simply bright by nature and can read most of us like a book.


keep up the good TR aikorob..  we all have different perspectives and everyone seems to bring something to this board when they relate their unique experiences.

[catzenmouse]

jim's main girl likes going out with me because she says "he is the only normal one". i told her to just wait ;-)...  if this poor girl thinks i'm "normal", it gives a lot of you guys hope after all.

God help me if I ever become one of the "normal ones" please shoot me!

Ken

[ConnerVT]

nor·mal    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (nôrml)
adj.
[list=1]

• Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations. [/*]

[scotty]

what does WOVO mean?

[aikorob]

You could probably argue by the fact we are even doing this, we are not normal:hairraising:

WOVO- write one, visit one

WMVM- write many, visit many

The combinations and possibilities are endless, it just depends on your personality and dating technique.

 After reading Anono's (and others) reports of the mercenary antics of some of these ladies, I am feeling very good about N. During my visit in April, she only wanted to eat at the Steakhouse on Deribasovskaya St.--yellow flag, perhaps- but she only wanted their salad bar--every visit. The only time during either visit that she asked for money was for taxi to get home. I believe I wrote on another thread about her choice in vehicles; she wants an older one because "I know I will have accident". I have sent her a little money over the past six months, but it was always a surprise, she has not asked for any money for "Granny's operation", or a new pair of shoes.

She is both practical and smart; we have spent most of our discussions on her adapting here and our life together; while the romance side is taking a back seat. That may sound backwards, but face it guys--if you fall in love after only a week or two of "face time"; how strong can it be? Yes, some couples can make it work, but for the majority, building a bond strong enough to last takes time. We have a relationship now based on mutual likes and tastes, and yes there is mutual attraction also. Time will tell.

The only metafor that comes to mind is it is like we are building a foundation, deep and secure for a magnificant house; while the one week wonders would be comparable to moving a trailer in and setting it on blocks

 On a side note, on my last day there, the conversation turned to the state of the economy and how Ukraine is doing in general. She is very unimpressed with the Orange Revolution. She works as an accountant at the "Champagne Factory' (her words ) so she has to deal with the government regulary. She says the constant changing of policies and regulations is driving her crazy. According to her, it changes regularly, depending on which crony of Yushchenko is in charge.

[Dutchy013]

I have been visiting East Europe for the last three years, over 20 times by now.

I resent the lack of respect and arrogant behavior of some guys and lack of respect for the women in FSU countries.

Of course we all had our share of scammers on dating sites, women who are only interested in expensive restaurants and gifts, but the majority I have met are decent, sincere and well educated women.

 

[Albert]

WOW Dutchy, you must be reading a different trip report than me.  Where are specific examples in anyone's words of this disrespect for the FSU women that you are commenting on?

[Dutchy013]

Albert,

 

You are right, but it was a general remark to get some feedback.

The remarks on other discussion forms are not so nice.

[BC]

Dutchy,

Men coming around RWD to report scammers usually have a hard time establishing a convincing argument when they present their case.

'ne roy drugomu yamu, sam v neyo popadesh'

[Bruno]

Men coming around RWD to report scammers usually have a hard time establishing a convincing argument when they present their case.

I am one who don't make it easy for the men who submit scammer... but i will act in the same way if a woman submit a potential man scammer...

Several time, women or men think that the other is a scammer because the relation is stopped... they cannot imagine that the other have find other partner or that some incompatibility have exist between the two...

Several "scammer" ( men or women ) are listed due to misluck relation and the wish of reveange from the other side...

 

[jb]

Hello, aikrob, I do remember your saga from the RWG.

From what you've written here it seems you have been keeping your eye  on the ball this time.  I would not be thinking "scammer" when  discussing "N".  It seems to me her expectations are well within  the normal range of a girl during courtship.  Of course, that will  change over time as she senses that the relationship is gaining  momentum, that's also normal.  To not expect her asperations to  increase would be a mistake, after all, a girl wants to marry a man she  can depend on for protection, at the same time she expects him to see  to her material well being.   The only thing I would have  recommended is to increase the frequency and the length of your visits.

Just an aside, as far as the WOVO vs WMVM question is concerned, any  man enough experience with women in general should be able to defend  that position if asked.  Just don't be blatant about it.  The  moment a man starts rubbing her nose in it any self respecting woman  would be outta there.  I think that's the mistake many guys make  when they get too interested in toting up conquests in the bedroom as  they date their way through an agency catalog.