St.Pete's Trip Report Jan 2009

[Misha]

But it does make sense to meet girls who has already been attracted to this environment and live there now.

Yes, if he plans on moving to St. Petersburg to live with her. Move a woman from St. Petersburg to Toronto or a woman from Yakutsk to Toronto and both will have to learn how to live in a new city, both will have to adapt, both will have to adjust to a new country, a new culture.

P.S. As I noted, a woman from St. Petersburg will not automatically love the arts simply because she lives in that city. Better to find a woman who wants to move to Toronto and who already loves the arts, than to find a woman from St. Petersburg simply because he thinks she lives in the art capital of Russia. JMHO.

[Wienerin]

Aw c'mon Wienerin, tell them the truth:  you're a White Sox fan, right?

Nope! (and in Piter I wasn't Zenit fan - if you know what I mean ) (with demonic laughter) Sox - suck! Big time! We are Bulls fans - even now, though for sentimental reasons mostly... and my scattered family are fans of the Bulls too. If I knew how to insert a picture from my PC - I'd show you my son and grandson in Bulls jackets in SPb

[Simoni]

Yes, if he plans on moving to St. Petersburg to live with her.

Big cities are more similar to one another than a city is to a small town.  For example, in my city we have crowds of people,  four theaters within 20 blocks of our condo, hundreds of restaurants, dozens of art galleries with openings every weekend, live music everywhere, and so forth.  And need I say sidewalks?

My point is that the cultural adjustment is great enough already without moving a girl to a ghost town or a "city" that has no art district or night life.  The cities may be different, but at least they are cities.

[Misha]

Big cities are more similar to one another than a city is to a small town.  For example, in my city we have crowds of people,  four theaters within 20 blocks of our condo, hundreds of restaurants, dozens of art galleries with openings every weekend, live music everywhere, and so forth.  And need I say sidewalks?

And? Will the woman from a small Russian city with a couple hundred thousand people be unable to understand the concept of a restaurant? Will she never have seen a sidewalk? Will she not be interested in going to an art gallery opening? Listen, I understand the concept as to why there are certain advantages to living in a big city, but what I don't understand is why you seem to be insisting that only a woman from St. Petersburg or other big city will be able to appreciate your restaurants, your art galleries, your live music everywhere? Do you somehow believe that the unwashed uncouth masses that do not live in St. Petersburg, Moscow or Kiev and Miami are unable to appreciate what your city has to offer?

My point is that the cultural adjustment is great enough already without moving a girl to a ghost town or a "city" that has no art district or night life.  The cities may be different, but at least they are cities.

Where exactly am I arguing the contrary? [My wife for one enjoys my ghost town, by the way, but that is another matter.] I agree with you that cities may be different, but at least they are cities. That is why I am saying that a woman from a small Russian city won't be that much different than the woman from the big FSU cities as BOTH COME FROM CITIES! The woman from a small city is just as likely to enjoy all your amenities as the woman from the bigger city.   

[Simoni]

My response was a reaction to your statement
 

Yes, if he plans on moving to St. Petersburg to live with her.

My argument is that people who have lived all their lives in the city will enjoy city life.  American girls dream of moving to the suburbs but avoiding downtowns; Russian girls want to live in cities.

I suppose I am also reacting to your posts elsewhere where you argue that big city girls from the fsu like moving to small outposts.  I have not seen that to a large scale.

But back on track-- the OP is well served by dating girls in a big art center like St. Pete as he lives in a city center of almost 6 million people himself.  It will lead to an easier adjustment.

[Wienerin]

I love cities. When sightseeing or vacationing - we'll go to see something in a city or town, but nonetheless urban, not beauties of the Nature (big water alwayus an exception... but to return to the city )

And yes, there's a city "gene"... If you grew up in a big and beautiful city, and your family and your friends all were like this, - however you tried to "adapt" to something less wouldn't be enough.

And I've heard this argument that "not everyone from St.Petersburg goes to the Hermitage or to the Mariinka every day" - which is true enough, and I've known people, who never went to either one, and ventured "to the city" (that's downtown) only for some shopping 2-3 times a year.

But the author was looking for a partner in what makes life beautiful and worthwhile for him, - sharing and enjoying together. So HIS future wife would have been the one with this "gene" - not the one, who only dimly, from school excursions remembered that yes, there was a Hermitage somewhere.

And yes, we traveled all over the US, and however much we liked some cities besides Chicago (and even loved - like Boston, Charleston, New Orleans), we'd not wish to live there. We've grown to love Chicago almost as much as St.Petersburg (though our love is more for Piter which isn't any more), but it wasn't a difficult adjustment to something foreign and strange. Just growing into it, getting to know it, acquiring more feeling and taste for it. Making it our own.

The only two other cities where we'd want to live are Paris (both The Boatswain and I), and London (more I than he) - and in neither we also - as in Chicago - felt strangers, who have to accomodate and adjust. We felt completely at home.

And I'm sure that this is because of being born and bred in St.Petersburg.  

[Misha]

And I'm sure that this is because of being born and bred in St.Petersburg.  

This is where I would disagree with you, but I sense that there is no sense arguing with you. Sadly, you share a trait that IMHO too many big city have: an unwavering sense of their innate superiority. I, for one, believe that someone born in a small city can appreciate art and all else that a big city has to offer as much as the resident of "born and bred" in the big city. I believe that horses and cattle are "bred" and not people and I happen to believe that someone from a small town can feel at home in Paris and London as someone born in St. Petersburg. I don't subscribe to such elitist attitudes. But, if you insist on believing that you are somehow superior because you were "born and bred" in St. Petersburg, that is your right 

[Wienerin]

This is where I would disagree with you, but I sense that there is no sense arguing with you. Sadly, you share a trait that IMHO too many big city have: an unwavering sense of their innate superiority. I, for one, believe that someone born in a small city can appreciate art and all else that a big city has to offer as much as the resident of "born and bred" in the big city. I believe that horses and cattle are "bred" and not people and I happen to believe that someone from a small town can feel at home in Paris and London as someone born in St. Petersburg. I don't subscribe to such elitist attitudes. But, if you insist on believing that you are somehow superior because you were "born and bred" in St. Petersburg, that is your right 

Of course you can disagree - but not with me, so sorry. You created for some reason an opponent who say - and you presume feels something totally alien to me and having nothing in common with what I've said. All of this reply to somebody about superiority and other shit (your discourse on "bred" is ridiculous - look the word up in Webster) - what did you mean? Where for G-d's sake did I say anything about anyone not beimng able to appreciate art, music, city life, etc. - because they were raised in a smaller or provincial city?

This is talking to some inner hurt or slight within you, not to me or about me.

Try to read what I say, not what you imagine me saying. I love St.Petersburg. I - and my whole family, relatives, friends and cherished former colleagues are all from the same life and environment which is an old-core Petersburgeans. We are used to a certain way of life. If we have to leave, we seek the same or - since it's obviously impossible, - similar life, similar environment: in people, stones, spirit. We do not thrive (or even wish to live) in the suburbia, in small towns, or even in larger and larger cities, which are foreign to our souls for some reason. Thus of all the places where we've been, we - my friend and I - found only Chicago, Paris and London where we could be happy. Not Moscow or Kiev, not NY or LA or SF, not Washington or Berlin, or Amsterdam. Not Toronto or Dallas.

Not because we are snobbish, or "superior" or whatever you invented in your fertile brain. We like what we like - because of being born and bred in St.Petersburg. WE - not somebody else. What is so difficult to understand about it?

[Misha]

Not because we are snobbish, or "superior" or whatever you invented in your fertile brain. We like what we like - because of being born and bred in St.Petersburg. WE - not somebody else. What is so difficult to understand about it?

I don't have to invent anything in my fertile brain, I just have to read your posts.

The fact of the matter is that I was raised on a farm with the nearest neighbors a few kilometers away. Yet, I managed to live in Toronto and in Moscow, and I am quite confident that I could easily live in Paris and London. I may not have the big city "gene" yet for some reason I am capable of visiting the best museums in the world and somehow refrain from spitting on the floor  I am quite confident in my abilities to thrive in any locale. 

[GoodOlBoy]

The problem I have with your holier than thou behavior is that it threatens Trip Reports, which are one of the best parts of RWD.

Have no fears Simoni.

You will continue to have your "Voyeuristic Appetite" quenched by the "older" lustful RWD members here, when they continue to recount their sordid tales of: "THE HUNT FOR THE YOUNG NUBILE FSU FLESH".  :evil:

After all it is only human nature for these 40's and 50's types of "gentlemen" to brag from the mens locker room's to the boardroom's about their escapades.

So rest assured tonight as you gaze into the "Mirror Of Shame" that no RWD members were "harmed" in my postings on this thread. 


GOB

[Gator]

Adaptabiltiy is something at which the Russian people have been forced to become experts over their history.

Yes, it is natural - social Darwinism. 

RW are also experts at expressing their desires and sticking to them, and I met very few who wanted small town life.  The closest was an ex-fiancee who thought Lake Como, Italy was the perfect place to live (and she had worked as a model in Moscow and Europe much of her life). 

If a woman from a village wishes to go live in the city, she will be able to adapt, she will be able to learn, and she will eventually thrive.

Agree.  The operative word is "wishes."  Nevertheless, Daveyj justifiably wanted someone who had the initiative to have already fulfilled her wish.

To believe otherwise is to believe that some humans are somehow born genetically superior.

Your point evades me because I believe this is true.  Not true for races, but true among individuals.  I hope this does not ignite off-topic controversy.

[Wienerin]

I don't have to invent anything in my fertile brain, I just have to read your posts.

The fact of the matter is that I was raised on a farm with the nearest neighbors a few kilometers away. Yet, I managed to live in Toronto and in Moscow, and I am quite confident that I could easily live in Paris and London. I may not have the big city "gene" yet for some reason I am capable of visiting the best museums in the world and somehow refrain from spitting on the floor  I am quite confident in my abilities to thrive in any locale. 

That's what I'm saying - you read my posts then invent something that I didn't write or even imply, that has nothing to do with ME. I'm writing about me - explaining, why I couldn't be happy in one place, but could in another.

What does it have to do with you - and your ability to adapt to Moscow or Toronto? With your visits to museums? With you thriving in any locale? All of which are admirable, - these make life easier for you in some respect.

BUT we aren't talking about you. I was only trying to explain that there are - and could be found in, say St.Petersburg people who are not that adaptable and, moreover, when given a choice - do not WISH to adapt. Why should we?

And here what you're saying is that a) Daveyj shouldn't for some reason be looking for a woman with the views and attitudes similar to his; b) that the ladies in question shouldn't even have these views and attitudes, for Pete's sake! They should be willing to adapt to whatever. Why? Because otherwise they'll be deemed snobs.

Did you take for a wife the very first women you met? Why not? You'd be able to adapt, wouldn't you?

[Misha]

Agree.  The operative word is "wishes."  Nevertheless, Daveyj justifiably wanted someone who had the initiative to have already fulfilled her wish.

Again, if you want an artist, how is being from St. Petersburg a fulfillment of that wish?

 

Your point evades me because I believe this is true.  Not true for races, but true among individuals.  I hope this does not ignite off-topic controversy.

Given our past exchanges, Gator, I am not surprised. Nonetheless, I judge people based on actions and achievements, not the place they where they happen to be born.

[Misha]

That's what I'm saying - you read my posts then invent something that I didn't write or even imply, that has nothing to do with ME. I'm writing about me - explaining, why I couldn't be happy in one place, but could in another.

God, let me repeat once more. I believe that a woman from a small city Russian city who wants to live in a big city in Canada or the United States with her husband can succeed as well as a woman from a big city. Вы понимаете или нет?

[SANDRO43]

If I knew how to insert a picture from my PC - I'd show you my son and grandson in Bulls jackets in SPb

Lena, when you write a post, you'll see an +Additional Options... button at lower left. Click it and it'll expand to show an Attach: option with a Choose... button that'll allow you to browse your PC disk and select any file there of the "doc, gif, jpg, mpg, pdf, png, txt, zip, avi, htm, html, mid, wav, xls, csv, ppt" type.

[SANDRO43]

GOB,
- Earlier, you insisted that 40+ y.o. Davej was only interested in chasing 20 y.o., any evidence to the contrary notwithstanding and tantamount to implicitly labelling him "dirty old man".
- Now:

Have no fears Simoni.
You will continue to have your "Voyeuristic Appetite" quenched by the "older" lustful RWD members here, when they continue to recount their tales of: "THE HUNT FOR THE YOUNG NUBILE FSU FLESH".  :evil:
After all it is only human nature for these 40's and 50's types of "gentlemen" to brag from the mens locker room's to the boardroom's about their escapades.
So rest assured tonight as you gaze into the "Mirror Of Shame" that no RWD members were harmed in the making of this thread. 

you maintain that a happily married member's interest in T/Rs is "Voyeuristic Appetite", and again the words "dirty old man" seem implied.

Why are you so obsessed with unmasking "dirty old men" where none probably exist ?

[Wienerin]

THank you Sandro
Here we go

[Vinnvinny]

All this talk about similar backgrounds, interests, locations etc, etc. What ever happened to the notion of opposites attract? Surely one of the most rewarding aspects of a relationship is to mutually introduce your partner to a ‘World’ they might not under normal circumstances have encountered?

Sure, you have to have some things in common and share some interests but ..... 

Maybe I am too simple and too open minded. Besides, I would hate to meet someone who is a female clone of me. 

[Wienerin]

God, let me repeat once more. I believe that a woman from a small city Russian city who wants to live in a big city in Canada or the United States with her husband can succeed as well as a woman from a big city. Вы понимаете или нет?

I perfectly understand I just don't know what your example has to do with the subj. Daveyj - correct me if I'm wrong, - isn't seeking a woman from a small Russian city, who is willing to come with her husband to a big city in Canada or USA. This is a no-brainer, just look at all the people, who come from small/er cities and hang on by their teeth to live in Moscow and St.Petersburg

But Daveyj looks for a woman with certain already established view, background, lifestyle - to transplant her to a similar environment (in his view). Being from the pool, where he wanted to get his goldfish, I gave MY opinion as to where the transplantation could be more successful or even no hardship at all.

Didn't you look for a companion of similar views and background? It's only natural, I suppose.

[GoodOlBoy]

GOB,
- In another thread, you insist that 40+ y.o. Davej was only interested in chasing 20 y.o., any evidence to the contrary notwithstanding and tantamount to implicitly labelling him "dirty old man".
- Now:you maintain that a happily married member's interest in T/Rs is "Voyeuristic Appetite", and again the words "dirty old man" seem implied.

Why are you so obsessed with unmasking "dirty old men" where none probably exist ?

Hello Sandro43.

Geetings and salutations.

As a civilized MAN, I find it totally repugnant and repulsive to read such exploits (40 something year old men chasing 20 year old "hung over" schoolgirls).

I have a daughter. She is now her late 20's.

Be sure that if some 40 something year old clown came "sniffing" around my daughter when she was 20.....well I think you get the picture of how I would "handle" him.

But of course here in America 40 something year old men know better than to hang out around schoolyards. If they do, 20 year old schoolgirls call them exactly what they are "dirty old men" (your term, not mine, but I like it ).

My message is simple: "If you come on a public forum, like RWD, don't humiliate your own self by posting such squalid drivel".


GOB

[Misha]

But Daveyj looks for a woman with certain already established view, background, lifestyle - to transplant her to a similar environment (in his view).

I will repeat once more. My point is that if he lives in Toronto, it is not necessary to find a woman in a city that is exactly the same size as his city. A woman from a smaller city will have as much ease and difficulty adapting to Toronto as a woman from a larger city. Also, his "background and lifestyle" have nothing to do with the size of the city. If his goal is to find an artistic soul, he would be much better off find an accomplished artist from a small city than let's say a factory worker or economics student from St. Petersburg.

At least, if he were truly looking for an artist from St. Petersburg, I could understand that, but nothing that Dave has written in this trip report suggests that he was specifically trying to find an artist or even an artistic woman. Rather, it seems to me, that he was presuming that a woman from St. Petersburg would be interested in an artistic lifestyle and milieu simply because she was from St. Petersburg  

[Wienerin]

All this talk about similar backgrounds, interests, locations etc, etc. What ever happened to the notion of opposites attract? Surely one of the most rewarding aspects of a relationship is to mutually introduce your partner to a ‘World’ they might not under normal circumstances have encountered?

Sure, you have to have some things in common and share some interests but ..... 

Maybe I am too simple and too open minded. Besides, I would hate to meet someone who is a female clone of me. 

Great! But we're not talking about you or Misha. We are talking about Daveyj, don't we?
You two guys reminded me of an opld soviet joke:
A man comes to a store (during one of the periodic campaigns for better service) and asks for toilet paper. The salesclerk says: We are out of toilet paper right now, but we can offer you very good sandpaper, rough grade...

[SANDRO43]

GOB, I understand you point  ("Be sure that if some 40 something year old clown came "sniffing" around my daughter when she was 20..."), and also share it.

MY point, however, is that it seems hardly applicable to the two cases I mentioned. IMO, you see evil intentions where none probably were.

[Vinnvinny]

But of course here in America 40 something year old men know better than to hang out around schoolyards. If they do, 20 year old schoolgirls call them exactly what they are "dirty old men" (your term, not mine, but I like it ).

Really? http://rosiedemario.blogspot.com/2006/06/james-woods-has-20-year-old-girlfriend.html

[Vinnvinny]

Love one of the comments re Jamie Woods “men need to grow up and act their age....nothing like dating someone your daughter's age.”

Yep, I can agree with that … there’s nothing to compare it with.