St.Pete's Trip Report Jan 2009

[GoodOlBoy]

Day 6
Got a call from “K” advising she had an exam in a couple of days, and felt she needed to stay in and study.  She was very apologetic, and I told her it was of course not a problem and perfectly understandable and we rescheduled for Day 8.
I spent Day 6 on my own.

Day 8
Spoke with “K” and she suggested I join her and some friends to celebrate the end of their exams.  It seemed a little strange to me, and I was curious as to what they would make of me. 

As we returned to the table where her friends were they were teasing me about “Who had I been dancing with, that “K” took me away from?” 
Having said that, although I think that she is indeed serious about seeking a WM, I think she is simply too young for me.


At 6pm I got a call from her apologising and telling me she had been up until 7am at a party with friends, and had slept all day and was hung over and would not be able to see me. 

I know that I will be pounced on for the comments that I will make, but somebody has to take the bullet and bring up the dangers of trying to juggle too many women...  

I agree Misha, BUT, I also have to add the age and quality of the women he selected to juggle.

Schoolgirls and Drinking Heavily?..... come on guy.

You are supposedly in your 40's, what are you doing?

Try somebody a LITTLE closer to your age, say in their low to mid 30's.

Schoolgirls don't want anything to do with 40 something year old men. 


GOB

[Gator]

For the record, I'm not going to engage in any debate or defense of my trip.  I've seen how that works out on this board.  I will only respond if there is a factual mistatement of my original report.  

And you should not debate.  Thank you for correcting our misconception about the ages of your dates.

Just to be factual, what are the ages of the different women you met?  Someone who is still in university is under 21 unless her studies were interrupted by something.  The hungover one who was drinking until 7am can not be considered serious in my book, regardless of ages, a point that Tamara was making.

[Faux Pas]

And thus it starts...

I considered not posting a TR, as it certainly was nothing for me to feel good about.  This is of course a deeply personal experience, and I have my misgivings about baring it to a group of strangers in a public forum

However I felt I had a responsibiltiy to post as I think there is a implicit bias that guys are more likely to want to report on this good experiences (victories?) and hide their bad experiences.  I also considerd posting a "no comments" TR, but hoped that my request for a minimum of "snide comments and bickering" would be respected.

I'd just like to note that as per my report, my target demographic was "under 30".  Somehow that turned into "under 25", and now it is "20 yr old hotties only".

For the record, I'm not going to engage in any debate or defense of my trip.  I've seen how that works out on this board.  I will only respond if there is a factual mistatement of my original report.  

Thanks daveyj, I enjoyed your trip report. I think is is also a good learning example of how the best laid plans can turn into a failure (your words) on the WMVM just as the WOVO can. I saw no where that anyone can point and say you did "something/anything" wrong. Thank gawd you didn't post pictures

I have a question though. On the days and nights you were alone did you venture out on your own and wing it, at all? I spent 12 days and nights on a WOVO trip to St Pete. 11 days and nights I was busy and enjoying myself with my one. On the 12th day and night I was alone and went out and still had a wonderful time. I spoke no russian except for a few words and phrases but I found it exceptionally easy to approach women and people in general. Some would come to my rescue when they heard me speak english but I spent most of a day and much of my last night having a great time with complete strangers. I seriously found St Pete to be one of the most interesting world class cities with truly world class people. I look forward to returning one day with my future RW.

I would advise not to give up the search so readily. It appears you learned some things to avoid and make a second trip much more successful.

[Vinnvinny]

School girls don't want anything to do with 40 something year old men. 

.... unless they can find one to finance their end of exams party. 

[Misha]

I agree Misha, BUT, I also have to add the age and quality of the women he selected to juggle.

School girls and Drinking Heavily come on guy.

You are right, I overlooked all the references to studying for exams. This would mean women that are 20 or 21 at most  

[GoodOlBoy]

Someone who is still in university is under 21 unless her studies were interrupted by something.  The hungover one who was drinking until 7am can not be considered serious in my book, regardless of ages, a point that Tamara was making.

But Gator, maybe they are what we call in the GoodOl' South "slow learners".

You know, from all the "drinking". 



GOB

[Gator]

Some points being made:

1.   I agree with Tamara that some RW are more serious than others.  For some reason, Davey’s correspondence did not measure the degree of seriousness.

2.   I disagree with SlightlyJaded’s comment that age disparity was a major factor.  A factor, yes, yet there are many ways for a man to compensate for an age disparity:  charm, intellect, money, seriousness, bearing (strong man), sexual appeal, etc.  If every factor is equal except age, a RW will naturally gravitate towards someone her age (as in not more than 2-4 years older).  However, never is everything equal.

3.   I disagree to some extent with Misha that the WMVM nature of the trip was a problem.  Although it did not help and perhaps turned off a couple of women, it begs the question:  If Daveyj had to choose just one, which one should he have chosen?  None, as far as I can tell.  

4.   I agree with SMS60 that something else may explain the lack of success.  However, I do not think Daveyj knows.  That is why I suggested that someone such as Tamara should call a few of the women and report her conclusions to Daveyj.

The key point is to help Daveyj decide if he should forget about RW.  And if not, what should be his plan.

There is another point.  Perhaps Daveyj's T/R is more of a sign of the times versus many moons ago when RW queued up in the hope of being chosen by a OWW.

[Misha]

3.   I disagree to some extent with Misha that the WMVM nature of the trip was a problem.  Although it did not help and perhaps turned off a couple of women, it begs the question:  If Daveyj had to choose just one, which one should he have chosen?  None, as far as I can tell.  

Again, no woman want to know that she is fourth IMHO. I am just curious as to what Dave told "T." The challenge would be IMHO keeping all women thinking they were the priority on the trip. Being told that you are already booked for the next three nights with no valid excuse will be tough  Fortunately, I never had this problem. I would only book a date with the next woman, once I knew that things would not work out with the previous woman I dated. 

[Daveman]

I think this is a clear cut example of what we were speaking about yesterday. His filtering process hasn't matured to the point necessary to strike out into the alternate methods. Perhaps choosing all the ladies mostly by their photos, perhaps ascribing some character traits to the photos.  Not being able to make the determination as to which ladies harbor true interest as opposed to wanting to goof around.

I still say he should take Simoni's advice and go to a large city, get in touch with the largest or one of the larger agencies, pay to play and meet a bunch of ladies already interested in a relationship with the right foreign man.

A postmortem berating over his choices is ludicrous.   The constructive suggestions could make a difference in the future.

[Vinnvinny]

On the 12th day and night I was alone and went out and still had a wonderful time. I spoke no russian except for a few words and phrases but I found it exceptionally easy to approach women and people in general. Some would come to my rescue when they heard me speak english but I spent most of a day and much of my last night having a great time with complete strangers.

Seems like you have invented a WOVM approach. Should this be added to the glossary?   

[GoodOlBoy]

Thank gawd you didn't post pictures ....

I agree Faux Pas, because we have those "pesky" child pornography laws in the GoodOl' USA.  :evil:


GOB

[Gator]

I still say he should take Simoni's advice and go to a large city, get in touch with the largest or one of the larger agencies, pay to play and meet a bunch of ladies already interested in a relationship with the right foreign man.

I would agree if DaveyJ is ready for another try.  Is he?

If a man does a WMVM without knowing enough to judge the seriousness of a woman (what DaveyJ did), he should advance to the next level as described by Simoni and meet 3-5 women per day for tea and cake.  Some agencies have a large enough inventory of RW/UW to do exactly that.  However, my experience suggests such agencies are in the provincial cities of Russia and Ukraine, not Moscow and St. Piter.  Kiev?

[Misha]

I still say he should take Simoni's advice and go to a large city, get in touch with the largest or one of the larger agencies, pay to play and meet a bunch of ladies already interested in a relationship with the right foreign man.

A postmortem berating over his choices is ludicrous.   The constructive suggestions could make a difference in the future.

It is hard to be constructive about future choice when you do not understand the choices made in the past.

Would using an agency have made a difference? I have my doubts. How many twenty year olds, as Gator noted, are listed in any legitimate agencies in St. Petersburg willing to meet a visiting 40-year-old foreigner at the drop of a hat? My guess is that you could count them on your fingers and have a few left over 

[brucen36]

I'm not an expert by any means but this is my opinion DaveyJ.  I think people like SeriouslyJ and others are in fact right, a 40-something (even if he looks 35) has a low probability of snagging a 20-something.  And large age differences on average lead to more problems than not.  There are two solutions to this problem, you can do as many said which is to change the search criteria, perhaps including more mature women - certainly a wise tactic I would say.  However, if you heart is indeed set on someone below 30, then the other option is of course obvious.  The way to be successful at a low probability event is to increase the number of attempts.  This, will increase the number of hits (not the chances, but the number.)  Thus, I would say do not give up and go back into the pool, but this time arm yourself with many many more meetings.  And I mean many more.  It's a numbers game and eventually that 7+ under-30 year old will hit.  

B

[2tallbill]

This member thanks you for your attention but cannot return your interest.

Try to contact someone else.
New members are joining every day!

Ok, that was funny

[Vinnvinny]

Provided the lady is older than say 25 then I think many of the negative comments regarding age gaps can be misleading. If a couple with a 20 year age difference really click and they are genuinely in love then their chances of maintaining that relationship is far higher than a couple with a smaller age difference who don’t share such a high level of compatibility.

More relevant IMHO is where and how the search is conducted. I have never been to St Petersburg but I gather it’s pretty similar to Moscow, Kiev etc. If a WM is contacting ladies in those cities using popular websites then I get the impression you have to be very lucky to find what you are looking for. And it’s not just the major cities; let me give you an example based upon personal experience.

Nikolaev: I forget how many agencies I was told there are in Nikolaev … around 200 I think. Walk around the main streets there and you can’t help but see fellow WM, they are everywhere. In the bars, the restaurants, the shops … WM, pretty girls and interpreters. Judging from the men who I have met then I don’t think too many guys leave there with much more than a lighter wallet.

Kherson: About 40 miles away from Nikolaev with only a slightly smaller population. I have been there around 10 times in the past 6 months and the amount of WM I have seen can be counted on one hand and I have never seen any Amercian guys. In Kherson I think there are about 3 or 4 agencies. The girl I met there (see temporary avatar) had been looking for a WM for 3 years, speaks fluent English, had received just a handful of emails and before me had just one guy go a visit her.

Do you think there is significantly more marriage minded ladies in Nikolaev than there are in Kherson? Do you think the ladies are significantly more beautiful in Nikolaev than they are in Kherson? The answer is no, of course they are not.

In the following few months many WM will be flocking to Nikolaev and very few will visit Kherson and most that do go there will be only doing so to go to the socials which, as we know, many genuine ladies avoid. Newbies should take note.

[2tallbill]

And thus it starts...

I considered not posting a TR, as it certainly was nothing for me to feel good about.  This is of course a deeply personal experience, and I have my misgivings about baring it to a group of strangers in a public forum

However I felt I had a responsibiltiy to post as I think there is a implicit bias that guys are more likely to want to report on this good experiences (victories?) and hide their bad experiences.  I also considerd posting a "no comments" TR, but hoped that my request for a minimum of "snide comments and bickering" would be respected.

I'd just like to note that as per my report, my target demographic was "under 30".  Somehow that turned into "under 25", and now it is "20 yr old hotties only".

For the record, I'm not going to engage in any debate or defense of my trip.  I've seen how that works out on this board.  I will only respond if there is a factual mistatement of my original report.  

There are always a number of members who sometimes side track a trip report or get way
off base. Many people haven't written one and have no idea what is involved in doing it, or
don't think about the emotions a guy is going through while writing one. A guy goes thinking
that he will meet his soul mate and ends up with rejection, all while telling to whole cyberworld
about it. Kinda humbling for sure.

There is a section that allows no comments, a PM to one of the Mods will
get it moved there if you wish. But I would keep it here if I were you. You
will get 10 pieces of good advice for every bad piece and it will be your job
to sort them out.

Deciding to pursue RW is not for the faint of heart, the easily discouraged, or the
thinned skin. I have pursued RW for a while now and have had my @ss handed to
me a time or two.

My unsolicited advice is to get up, dust yourself off, review exactly what you want. Look
at what you learned, make changes that work for you and fit your personal style and goals.
Go do it again with the lessons learned from this.

Don't worry about a poster here or there because most of the members here will be supportive.

Udachi !!! (Good Luck!!!)

Bill

[Simoni]

How many twenty year olds, as Gator noted, are listed in any legitimate agencies in St. Petersburg willing to meet a visiting 40-year-old foreigner at the drop of a hat? My guess is that you could count them on your fingers and have a few left over 

Some people seem to be missing what the OP wrote:

Alternatively, it may be that the women in my desired demographic (under 30, 7+, cosmopolitan lifestyle in St.Pete’s) are just not interested in me! Lol..either way it is the same for me.

I find this attack style on posters of TRs to be in poor taste, especially when they twist events and create a straw man they then attack.
The OPs under 30 becomes 20 year olds to some; child porn to others. 

Some try to say students are 21; however, I met a number of students who were 23-26.  It depends on the degree they are earning.

Under 30 certainly means 27 and 28 year olds, which are certainly appropriate for the OP.

Davyj:  disregard those who simply want to elevate themselves by criticizing you.  Listen to the good advice many have given you.

I'd say do it again, but get to a smaller city in Ukraine (St. Pete was not the best choice), and just enjoy meeting people.  Lots of people here have had numerous trips, so chalk this up to experience. 

[Faux Pas]

Seems like you have invented a WOVM approach. Should this be added to the glossary?   

Oh no. I was and am a WOVO. Just my preference. It just so happened that on my last day there I was alone and rather than hole up in the apartment I decided to go out and see what I was capable of getting into. I wasn't and I didn't go to meet more women although that is what I ended up doing, along with some men all of varying ages. I met some interesting ladies in that one day just by chance. There were no dates or agency connections. All were people I met at random at different places. My point was in St Pete, it isn't necessary to pre-arrange meeting people. At least I didn't find that to be the case. I was just wondering if daveyj had attempted to do this as well.

[Misha]

Some people seem to be missing what the OP wrote:
I find this attack style on posters of TRs to be in poor taste, especially when they twist events and create a straw man they then attack.

Simoni, some of us believe in looking at things objectively and realistically.

The fact of the matter is that a 20-year-old woman from St. Petersburg might as well be from a different planet from the 30-year-old RW. Let's simply compare the life histories of two women, one born in January 1989 (i.e. now 20 years old), versus the woman born in 1979 (the 30 year old woman).

The woman born in St. Petersburg in 1989, was a baby when the Berlin Wall fell and a toddler when the Soviet Union disintegrated. She will have few if any memories of those chaotic years in the early 90's. She won't have any memories of how the streets of St. Petersburg were lined with old women selling everything and where the exchange rate was in the thousands of rubles per dollar. I first traveled to St. Petersburg in 1995 and remember what the city looked like then. Quite different from what it certainly looks like now. The young woman born in 1989, was still a child when the last great financial crisis hit Russia (the default of 1998).

What will the 20 year old woman remember? She will have come of age in a period when Russia, and notably her city, was quickly becoming very prosperous. She will have been influenced by the propaganda of the last few years telling her that Russia would soon be the second-richest country and that Russia was once again becoming a great country. She perhaps took part in a few Nashi parties and maybe even a Nashi demonstration against American imperialism. She takes if for granted that people in her city have always had plenty of Mercedes and other "inomarki" and she came of age at a time when she was highly optimistic of her chances of being successful in Russia and living the dream in her country. She is surrounded by young men who want to date her and sees no real reason to fear for her future. Tell me why she would want to date a foreigner and move to the United States or any other foreign country? How does it go, the world is her oyster and she is almost certain to believe she can achieve all her dreams in Russia, including finding a good husband.

Let us compare this to the woman who is now 30. This hypothetical woman remembers the fall of the Soviet Union quite well, she remember the shortages, she remembers the "talons" that could be traded in for milk. She might remember the throngs of people lunging at the store counters to get their ration of milk. She will remember a time when only the mafia drove foreign cars. She might have spent a year or two in the pioneers, but she came of age the young Communists were virtually non-existent and Yeltsin had bigger problems to deal with. The 30 year old woman remembers not only the collapse of the Soviet Union, she was possibly attending university or college when the 1998 default hit Russia. She entered the job market before the boom and did not expect to get a high paying job. She may have been caught up in the hype of recent years, but in the back of her mind, she likely has some doubts as she remembers what she and her family went through in with Perestroika, the early 1990s and after 1998.

Finally, by the time she hits her late twenties, she may be interested in a foreigner not as an escape to a better country, but because she is looking for something she did not find in Russia: a good man to be her husband. The 20-year-old is more likely to go out on a date with a foreigner out of curiosity, but is less likely to be interested in him as a husband for the reasons I have given.

It has nothing to do with using agencies or not using agencies, it is simply a matter of social history and circumstance.

[Simoni]

Misha,

Read again what I wrote:

Under 30 means 29 or 27 or 25 and not just the 20 yr old you keep bringing up.  Why do you keep defaulting to 20? 

BTW-- I have written the same discourse many times about the advantages of a girl in her late 20s.  I do believe that a woman is not ready to be serious until then.  But your example just does not apply here.

[Misha]

Under 30 means 29 or 27 and not just the 20 yr old you keep bringing up.  Why do you keep defaulting to 20?  Perhaps because that lets you unload on yet another poster?

Reading the post, it is clear that Dave was dating women closer to the 20 than the 30 age range. I am just pointing out that dating a woman who is close to twenty years of age is unlikely to lead to very productive results, based on the changes that have happened in Russia in the past decade.

[Vaughn]

daveyj,

 Thanks for the eloquently written report. I was compelled to return to your first TR, for the sake of
continuity. Yes, it was certainly a bullet when "Y" announced (or should I say 'quietly mentioned') her
impending marriage.

  Although you failed to return with a good feeling about anything, I believe that this journey was by no means
a wasted effort. I'm encouraging you to give yourself some more time to digest all that didn't happen - and then
resolve to make some constructive changes in your approach.

  For the record, "Y" is/was 25 last autumn. I won't get into the age issue, as I'm 58, my wife is 46, and I have
no business going there. Dating 20-somethings is a distant memory for me. I DO see wisdom in setting the stage
elsewhere. And it HAS crossed my mind to ask, "Why St. Petersburg?"

  From my perspective, daveyj, you're a young man. Still single, well-salaried, in shape. What I cannot accept so
readily is that you've practically waved a white flag after two journeys. As I said, give yourself time to heal, and
don't delude yourself into thinking you've given this your best shot and it's time to hang up the cleats.

  Re-read Tamara's keen observation about announcing of intentions. I think she hit the bull's eye there.

  Wait another month. Call "Y", you have her number. Wish her well, and then kiss St Petersburg goodbye. The
others, as I see it, were mere window dressing for the girl of girls, your "Y". No reason to go back there now.

  Kherson. Dnepr. Izhevsk. Perm. I could list a dozen more I would've loved to have visited as a single
man. You, on the other hand, just might choose to squander the opportunity to see your quest through, and I
find that exceedingly sad.  I urge you to climb back into the saddle when you get over your disappointment.

Vaughn

[Ade]

This member thanks you for your attention but cannot return your interest.

Try to contact someone else.
New members are joining every day!

Oh damn, are you sure? But I've been told that I look like I'm more in my 20s than 40s.

On a more serious note; take my posts as personal insults if you wish but I thought these TR were supposed to be primarily "educational" at least that is the rationalisation that everyone usually gives.

Anyway, I think your total failure really is educational to those misty eyed gullible guys out there that have been taken in by agency propaganda and think that there are droves of nubile young hotties just queuing up waiting for the next forty or fifty year old to step off the plane. They aren't, at least the ones any sensible man would want to marry aren't. That is to say, you can find a worthwhile 20-something hottie searching for their 40 year old dreamboat but there are very few and you have a lot of competition in front of you.  I thought I'd better explicitly qualify this before too many members got their knickers in a twist.

I always used to date local women that were 3 to 10 years younger but I never went out there looking specifically for an age group, that just happened to be the age of the women that were most compatible at the time.  So look for a woman who has the personality, goals, maturity, interests, etc that you find attractive and are compatible and ignore their age - that will take care of itself and is the least important attribute unless you are looking for nothing else but a trophy sex toy.

I'm curious though, what do you think you have in common with a 20-something, and by "20-something" I mean a girl in her early 20's as opposed to a 29 year old? And yes, I am assuming that you were aiming at the less than 25 range, but mainly because those that aren't usually say so; even 25 to 26 would put a 15 to 16 year gap between you, not insurmountable but certainly stretching the odds a little.

[GoodOlBoy]

Daveyj, as a GoodOlBoy, I kinda' pride myself on thinking "out of the box".

So here goes nothing.

Did you happen to think about asking any of these "girls" if one of their Mothers was available? 

Who knows....maybe next time!


GOB