So, you want to marry a younger Russian woman.

[anono]

bruce, i enjoy your level head. i know jack and i understood his situation before he posted it. it was not an easy decision to make. for those who think jack should have given her a child, because relationships are give and take, well, why aren't they saying natalia should have given in to jack's desire not to have children and stayed with him and not had a child?

jack does not want a child and natalia does. neither was able to come to the other's side in this, so..well..they are going seperate ways. to suggest that jack took these years away from natalia is nonsense. if she didn't think she had time to find another suitable man to be the father of her children, she would not leave jack.

(the above based only on what i know about this).

[Maxx]

Since Jack is using his one stated reason for his coming divorce as a object lesson to us how about using the others if there are any? Why not? I mean he wants to help us? Right?

[KenC]

Anno,

There is one factor here that you are ignoring: Natalia always did want children and Jack had the position of maybe.  She was consistant in her need to have children (as I understand things).

KenC

[jb]

I just think it's sad a marriage of 6+ years is breaking up.... For whatever reason.  I don't think is's a good idea for those folks sitting on the sidelines to begin playing a "Blame Game", none of you are privvy to all the facts in the case,,, now, then, or ever.  

Unless I badly mis-read the beginning of the thread, the theological, (for those middle aged men among you who still worship at the feet of the younger RW), message Jack was trying to preach in his opening post was in the nature of a warning concerning the possible pitfalls a man should be aware of if he's contemplating a union with a much younger women.  That there might be a price to be paid for a young and beautiful trophy bride, I thought he did a good job of it.

I do think it's ironic when I think back over all the years of rancor filled posts Jack laid on me when I steadfastly opposed the general notion that 20+ year age differences was a thing to be much desired and sought after.  Jack runs a MOB agency, he won't lack for company.  He just now knows, as Andrew pointed out, these relationships have a "best used by" date on them.  

It's a hard lesson, but at 51 years of age it's not too late. He has my sympathy and best wishes for a brighter future, whichever way he decides to go.

[TigerPaws]

Anyone who had read this board for anytime knows jb's rant on trophy/younger wifes but that has little to do with Jack's stated reasons for their divorce and in my humble opinion Jack has been very open and honest about his reasons. Were there more issues between the two of them, of that I am sure but it is none of anyone elses business.

There is NOTHING wrong with wanting or having a trophy/younger wife if you as a man are ready to accept what goes along with your choice. Jack came to the decision that he did not want children and his wife wanted them. Maybe he came to this decision later than he should have that we could discuss but not his decision about his choice of a ladies age or beauity.

[ConnerVT]

Sorry, TP, but this has nothing to do about jb's opinion.  And your opinion will certainly have some bias due to your situation, so I will read it as such.

All jb said was to echo Jack's statements in the opening of the thread.  ALL MEN, regardless of age, regardless of the country of origin of their spouse, when marrying a woman of child bearing age, must be aware that a decision may need to be made if a new child may be added to their family.  This decision has added levels of difficulty when one of the parties involved (the man) is significantly older than most people raising children.

I wish Jack and Natalia the best.  It is a difficult and mature decision they make, and I'll respect their privacy by not being a sideline quarterback.

[Turboguy]

I am not meaning this as anything negative about anyone, but shouldn't children be discussed before you get married?   I agree one of the problems with an older guy marrying a younger gal might be that he does not want kids and she does.  It just seems to me that is a topic for the dating stage not after a few years of marriage.   I am not ruling out that a woman can change her mind.  After all that is a woman's perogative. 

0ne of the things that really surpised me in meeting some of the guys I have is the guys who are older and are particularly looking for someone to have children with.   For example when I was on the Kiev tour with EC nearly a year ago one of the guys I became friends with was 63 and looking for a 21 year old and one of his priorities was having a child which he had never done.   One of the better friends I had on another tour earlier in the year was in his mid 50's and looking for exactly the same.  He and I are still friends and he is still looking.  My other good friend from that tour was the opposite.  He had been there and done that and definately wanted a woman who did not want children

[Journeyman]

I wish Jack and Natalia the best. It is a difficult and mature decision they make, and I'll respect their privacy by not being a sideline quarterback.

I agree.  It is really difficult to handle everything logically every time when feelings develop.  Years ago, I got deeply involved with a gal (American) for about two years.  However, when we started going out, within the first month of our dating, she was remarkably honest with me about the fact that she couldn't have children.  She had had to have a complete hysterectomy years before.  I really liked her at the time, and considered the implications of it all for me -- considering the fact that I had not yet had kids, but still wanted them (my own).  But she and I really liked each other.  We talked about the issue from time to time, and she always knew that it remained an issue for me.  Finally, after 2 years together, I told her that I just couldn't foreclose on the opportunity for me to still have my own kids.  She understood, but it was still VERY hard for her.  Still, we managed to have a good parting, and remained friends for years after, because we both treated each other well both during the relationship, and even during the dissolution.  We were both happy to remain close, even though we mourned the loss of what we had.

Yes, try to be logical both early on, and throughout a relationship.  But, boy it's tough to do consistently, especially when strong feelings get underway.  They key is, I think, to always be honest, and then to treat each other with kindness and respect.  Then, you cannot be responsible for the other person's choices.  I spent 2 years thinking that I could change to accept the result of having no children.  I really cared for her, and we just natually wanted to be together, and did so. When the time came, it was hard (like Jack's experience), but we survived it, with friendship and warm feelings intact.  Again, the key is being honest, kind, and remain accepting of the possibilities (both happy and sad).  After that, you just can't do much more to be respectful or responsible toward or for the other person.  You can't make up someones mind for them, telling them what they must or should do, or shutting yourself off from them if they still want to be with you.  

Journeyman

[corp]

Well, after 8 years in The White House Hillary did say one thing that I agreed with.
 "The only two people who know what goes on in a marriage ... are the two people in the marriage."

Jack I hope things work out for the both of you, I regret your breakup.

PLease allow me to offer my thoughts as well to this thread.

Not to be a smart A$$ but was the "lesson" of this thread really needed?

If we have middle age men on this board that need to be told that
 "a woman that does not have children ... will want them sooner or later"
.... We are in trouble.

Should it have come as a surprise to Jack or anyone else that a young wife will want a child?
If so, you are so f_ckin out of touch with the most basic elements of life you bess stay home, rather than hurt yourself or someone else.

PS; From the tone of a few posts... I think the term "lease agreement" is more fitting than "marriage."

[Jet]

My appolgies for such a late reply but I only stumbled onto this thread tonight. We were still dealing with post hurricane power/internet issues when this topic was posted (10/24-11/4).

Jack,

I know you and I have butted heads in the past, but I would like to offer my sincere condolences over your loss. Divorce sucks, no matter what the reason, but divorcing a person you still truly care for is especially difficult.

Good luck to both of you in the future,

Jim

[al-c]

We should not critigue Jack's choice.  Some of us may have decided much differently, if for no other reason just to keep our loving wives, but none of us are Jack and none of us really know what it is like to be him.  I respect Jack for sharing this painful decision with us, and I am confident he acted in his best interests and that of his now former wife.

I would have certainly gone for having the child, but again I am not Jack.  I am 48 and already raised two smart ass teenagers who are now responsible and mature adults, thanks in no small part to the effort I put in to raise them right.  I was smarter and assier than the two of them put together.   They tried to compete with me but always lost.

I take it as a given that a RW who never had children is going to want one, regardless of what she tells me now, so if I am not prepared to do that with her, I will not give her any consideration.  If she writes to me, my answer in my first letter is "Thanks but no thanks".

[tim 360]

Women, anywhere are not quite so simple as that.  To some women a "maybe" will become a "yes" given a little time.  Even a "no" can wither into a "maybe" and then...a "yes".

There is also the time factor and people have been known to change their minds as the clock ticks or as DNA induced "motherhood" programming kicks in.  I have known many women who at 26, 27, 28 said they did not want children.  Yet by 30 or 32 MUST have a child.  People change.  The urge for a woman to have a child is universial and not confined to any culture.  And I have met a few women who at 40 suddenly feel a strong compelling urge to have a child...although in previous years they did not.  Much to the chagrin of their husbands.

  The instruction manual for a man is a quick read,  very direct and about 5 pages.  The manual for a woman is a thousand and has re-writes and addendums attached.

Today she absolutely does not want a child.  Yet,  do not be surprised if in a couple years she absolutely must have a child.

[Michelangelo]

[user=62]tim 360[/user] wrote:

Women, anywhereare not quite so simple as that. To some women a "maybe" will become a "yes" given a little time. Even a "no" can wither into a "maybe" and then...a "yes".

The instruction manual for a man is a quick read, very direct and about 5 pages. The manual for a woman is a thousand and has re-writes and addendums attached.

Today she absolutely does not want a child. Yet, do not be surprised if in a couple years she absolutely must have a child.

Nice post, Tim--and 100% correct.  Women do change their minds (gasp!)  

[andrewfi]

Tim, she has coonsistently wanted kids, it was Jack who did not. Somehow, I think that conviction is not going to get any less strong on her part!

I know women who did put off having kids to make husbands happy. Usually the result was disappointed women.

[al-c]

So the consensus seems to be that regardless of what she says, if she has no kids, you need to figure on her wanting one sooner or later.

 

[KenC]

al-c,

Yes.

KenC

[tim 360]

Andrew,  I was not referring to Jack,  my symapthies are with him and I know this is a very difficult time for him.  I find his situtation a personal and painful one and don't wish to comment further on it,  although I am aware she was a "yes" and he was a "maybe".  Cheerio,

[tim 360]

al-c:  to echo Ken...Yes.

Methinks that if you want to marry a woman who does not want children,  find one who already has one or 2.  But you just never know,  things can change?  And change they can. 

Refer to the instruction manuals and batteries are not included.

[Jack]

Guys, Natalia and I are both very appreciative of your post's. We both say "thank you" for your many kind words, thoughts and wishes.
 
Natlalia is doing quite well. The help and support she has received from everyone in the North Texas community has been overwhelming (well with the exception of one couple who we traced back as the source of many rumors).  We talk several times each week, in fact just spent half an hour discussing our Thanksgivings. She is adapting quite well. Again thank you guys.

[Cold Warrior]

Just saw this Jack, sorry to hear about the divorce. C'mon on man, kids might not be a bad idea. My stepdad married my mom at 50, got 2 more kids and now at 67 it has rejuvenated him. He is all over the place playing football, basket etc. 

I wish the best for you and Natalie.You know it was you,KenC and Dan who were responsible for getting me interested in RW a few years ago over on PL. I have finally met the girl I'm going to marry although we are in no rush at the moment, so I am forever indebted to you guys.

[KenC]

[user=22]Cold Warrior[/user] wrote:

Just saw this Jack, sorry to hear about the divorce. C'mon on man, kids might not be a bad idea. My stepdad married my mom at 50, got 2 more kids and now at 67 it has rejuvenated him. He is all over the place playing football, basket etc. 

I wish the best for you and Natalie.You know it was you,KenC and Dan who were responsible for getting me interested in RW a few years ago over on PL. I have finally met the girl I'm going to marry although we are in no rush at the moment, so I am forever indebted to you guys.

Warrior,

Congrats.  As long as we don't share the blame if things don't work out!:shock:  And please don't rush it, take your time and enjoy the journey.  Best of luck to you.

KenC

[Cold Warrior]

 Warrior,

Congrats.  As long as we don't share the blame if things don't work out!:shock:  And please don't rush it, take your time and enjoy the journey.  Best of luck to you.

KenC

Thanks Ken, I am going slowly but surely, I know I can always count on the wisdom of you guys, and thanks again to Dan for hosting this board.

 

[KenC]

Warrior,

It took a long time for your "weapons of mass seduction" to find their proper target!  You need to share your story with us sometime.

KenC

(I always loved that phrase, but couldn't quite remember it earlier.  Old age and all, you know)

[SochiJon]

Damn! That's a super tough choice to make Jack. Sorry to hear how it went. I recently married a girl who is 18 years younger than me... in fact, she will arrive here next week! We lived together for about 9 months in Russia and married in June. She has no kids but loves them very much and has raised her sisters kids.. as her sister has some problems. Anyway.. I knew there was no getting around the kid issue. She said at the beginning, that she maybe would be ok with no kids.. but the more I knew her, the more i knew she never would be happy without them. She really needs a kid to complete her dreams, as many women do. Also, she said when I am dead and gone... she wants our child or children to be around so she won't be alone in life. I had to think long and hard (no pun intended) and it was a tough choice for me too. Did I really want to start a new family? My daughter is 19 and my son 23!!! I had never thought I would start over.. but I really love her and want her to feel complete. I decided we'd go for it. I feel real excited about it now that I made the choice to go ahead and do it.. in a couple years that is.

I wish you the best... I know how hard this must have been for you.

Jon

[Aleksia]

To have a child after, let's say, 50 is a tuff decision and yes, you have to realize that if a woman does not have children, sooner or later she will want to have one. Even if she is telling differently in the beginning. If you are not ready for that, you should be open and sincere with her. I have a client, who wrote in her first letter that she wants to have at least one child in her future marriage and her now husband, agreed with it. They got married. Now he is telling that he is not ready. His children are adults, he has a couple of grandchildren. Sooner or later this marriage will fall if she will not be able to deal with this. Love to a husband is a big thing here, but love to children sometimes can be stronger. A woman should have a possibility to see fulfilled her desire to become a mother. There are a lot of women who do not have children and do not want to have them, but to be sincere with yourself and your partner right from the beginning is very important.