Is it Real ?

[groovlstk]

Why? Read the posts and see who I disagreed with and why. I just find odd this idea this idea that some men just chose to be gay and somehow decided one fine morning to be gay because of the lifestyle. To paraphrase SeriouslyJaded, I can't say that I chose to be heterosexual, simply was and my erotic fantasies were always about women long before my first sexual experience with a woman. Though the research is still in its infancy, it is certainly convincing enough that there are a biological factors at play that shape sexual attraction before a child is born. The need to believe that homosexuality is chosen, speaks volumes IMHO.   

Misha, I'd agree w/this, but a deeper question is why would proof that homosexuality has a genetic basis make it any more or less "legitimate?" I'm no sociologist so maybe someone here can shed some light on my dim observations: What's the difference between a gay man who acts on his instincts to love other men and some 60ish RWD fart who chases 20-year-old Russian women? If scientific proof that genetics account for the gay man's behavior "legitimizes" it, wouldn't the same argument apply to our RWD geezer? The gay man is exonerated for his behavior because he can't change his instincts, while the RWD geezer is roundly condemned by both men and women, young and old. If and when such scientific proof is documented, I'd be interested to see how many old geezers take a cue and say, "I can't help but chase young women, it's my genes talkin' and I'm just along for the ride!" 

[Misha]

Misha, I'd agree w/this, but a deeper question is why would proof that homosexuality has a genetic basis make it any more or less "legitimate?"

It doesn't, but those who believe that it is a "choice" tend to believe that it can be "cured." I would say that for some (not necessarily a belief held by anybody on this forum), the need to believe that being homosexual is a "choice" is also rooted in religion. If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, then to say that God creates men and women who by birth have no choice but to sin would raise some uncomfortable questions about the nature of God IMHO. It is easier to say that homosexuality is a choice, a lifestyle, and gay men and women "choose" to sin and can be cured through prayer. If they chose to sin, they therefore choose to be damned.

[BC]

Well, gay and lesbians do not usually say that feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, just that they are attracted to people of the same sex. IIRC, those who feel trapped in the "wrong body" call themselves transgendered.

In homosexual and lesbian couples I have interacted with, I was able to identify fairly clearly masculine and feminine type roles, thus my thoughts about 'gradients' of lifestyle differences.

[BC]

It doesn't, but those who believe that it is a "choice" tend to believe that it can be "cured." I would say that for some (not necessarily a belief held by anybody on this forum), the need to believe that being homosexual is a "choice" is also rooted in religion. If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, then to say that God creates men and women who by birth have no choice but to sin would raise some uncomfortable questions about the nature of God IMHO. It is easier to say that homosexuality is a choice, a lifestyle, and gay men and women "choose" to sin and can be cured through prayer. If they chose to sin, they therefore choose to be damned.

Oh boy.. lets not complicate this even more...  One irresolvable discourse at a time is enough.. LOL

[brucen36]

It doesn't, but those who believe that it is a "choice" tend to believe that it can be "cured." I would say that for some (not necessarily a belief held by anybody on this forum), the need to believe that being homosexual is a "choice" is also rooted in religion. If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, then to say that God creates men and women who by birth have no choice but to sin would raise some uncomfortable questions about the nature of God IMHO. It is easier to say that homosexuality is a choice, a lifestyle, and gay men and women "choose" to sin and can be cured through prayer. If they chose to sin, they therefore choose to be damned.

This is a good point.  Most faith based beliefs are driven by early childhood religious brainwashing.

[Misha]

In homosexual and lesbian couples I have interacted with, I was able to identify fairly clearly masculine and feminine type roles, thus my thoughts about 'gradients' of lifestyle differences.

Yes, but ask them if they could magically wake up the next morning and change gender if they would, I would wager that pretty much all of them would say no. There are people who do feel trapped in the wrong body and who do go through hormonal treatments and operations to change their gender (this week's Law & Order: SVU dealt with this issue ).

This is one case I remember reading about years ago that will certainly send some of the men here in an apoplexy  :evil: It was the case of a man who had a sex change operation and afterward came out as a lesbian. Though it sound nonsensical, it does make sense. This was the case of a man, who felt that he was really a she trapped in a man's body and considered himself a herself. Nonetheless, once she was "freed" of a male body, she was as a woman attracted to other women.  

[Misha]

If scientific proof that genetics account for the gay man's behavior "legitimizes" it, wouldn't the same argument apply to our RWD geezer?

Well, there is a school of thought that is highly contested, sociobiology, that would say that there is a genetic basis for men being attracted to younger women as they are the most fertile. However, this school of thought would also likely posit that for the woman, her instincts would be driving her to choose an old man for his resources but to have sex with younger men who will provide better offspring. Now that I think of it, it does explain a lot of the train wrecks we have seen here  :evil:

[Ade]

Well, there is a school of thought that is highly contested, sociobiology, that would say that there is a genetic basis for men being attracted to younger women as they are the most fertile. However, this school of thought would also likely posit that for the woman, her instincts would be driving her to choose an old man for his resources but to have sex with younger men who will provide better offspring. Now that I think of it, it does explain a lot of the train wrecks we have seen here  :evil:

Actually, there are quite recent studies that indicate that women will be attracted to different men depending on where they are in their ovulatory cycles; protectors and providers vs the hunky handsome dude with the "good genes".

[Misha]

Actually, there are quite recent studies that indicate that women will be attracted to different men depending on where they are in their ovulatory cycles; protectors and providers vs the hunky handsome dude with the "good genes".

True, the research does show that women are more likely attracted to the young, attractive men with the better genetic potential when she is ovulating.

[Daveman]

Actually, there are quite recent studies that indicate that women will be attracted to different men depending on where they are in their ovulatory cycles; protectors and providers vs the hunky handsome dude with the "good genes".

Is there a link to some info about this study?   We can carry ovulation detection kits with us to know if we stand a chance with the woman at the meeting!.. heh

Mods, I have zero problem with the discussion of homosexuality.. however, is there a way to gather up all of these extraneous posts on the topic and move them to the one titled homosexuality thread (without consuming an inordinate amount of time)?  Kinda strange to have the discussion in the areas newbies would be searching for info on RW, and among various threads...

[Ade]

Is there a link to some info about this study?   We can carry ovulation detection kits with us to know if we stand a chance with the woman at the meeting!.. heh

There are a bunch of studies that indicate variations on this theme; here's one http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/article/time_t_and_macho_men and another http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1559901 - they give the general idea but not exactly the same as the study I saw reported (on TV) but it's out there somewhere if you google hard enough I'm sure.

[Misha]

There are a bunch of studies that indicate variations on this theme;

Here are a few more from BBC that look at the results of this research:


Women's choice of men goes in cycles: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/376321.stm
Infidelity 'is in the genes': http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2369357.stm
Dominant men 'smell attractive': http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4653139.stm

[OlgaH]

And you should.


Olga, you add much here and I assert that the vast majority want you to continue to participate.  I would assume that most men did not comment because that thread looked like another pissing contest and so they did not bother to read it.  I read only a part before my eyes glazed over and I went to something more interesting such as why gays are no different or different, dependent upon one's perspective.  Why all this talk about gays?  Sheeesh.

Don't apologize.  It destroys my image of RW, especially the huge amount of pride each and every RW possesses.  Besides, you have never given me a hard time.

Gator,

Thank you so much. You have always  been a gentleman towards any woman on this board. I just can imagine how many women could post here their thoughts and independent opinions contributing and helping to the board, if some other male participants (and who are not just simply participants) had the class as you have. Many men can learn from you, but some of them will not because of their alpha male ego on the verge of male chauvinism. Because of their pride those alpha males  will never admit that a woman can be right and because of their pride they will never say any words of apology, instead of that they will reject a woman's opinions that is unsuitable to their opinion with all means accusing her of ignorance, intolerance, questioning her foreign language abilities, using inappropriate slang and name calling , and more over they will try to justify their action and will be supported and justified by their alpha male brothers. They can play a role of "I'm a nice guy and brother to my brothers " on the open board, but at the same time they send their full of bitter sarcasm PMs to a woman and some of them even try secretly, behind the woman back, to inform brothers "how really the woman is bad" writing their total lies, unfortunately I also have experienced such alpha male behavior.

Yes, Gator, I can stand up for myself and you are right I should, but honestly I got tired   I'm a Russian woman and as many Russian women I have my own pride and honor to apologize and I do... But as a Russian woman and probably any woman in this World, I don't have any apology for alpha male behavior  

Again thank you, Gator.
Sincerely
Olga

    

[jdk1963]

It doesn't, but those who believe that it is a "choice" tend to believe that it can be "cured." I would say that for some (not necessarily a belief held by anybody on this forum), the need to believe that being homosexual is a "choice" is also rooted in religion. If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, then to say that God creates men and women who by birth have no choice but to sin would raise some uncomfortable questions about the nature of God IMHO. It is easier to say that homosexuality is a choice, a lifestyle, and gay men and women "choose" to sin and can be cured through prayer. If they chose to sin, they therefore choose to be damned.

That is a fairly limited view of religion.  Not anything close to what I was "brainwashed" with as a child.

[Misha]

That is a fairly limited view of religion.  Not anything close to what I was "brainwashed" with as a child.

Well, depends what you were raised with as a child. From what I have observed and read, fundamentalists (Christians and Muslims) tend to be the least tolerant of homosexuality in the same way that fundamentalist Christians tend to be the ones most vehement in their opposition to the teaching of evolution as this also contradicts their religious worldview. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

[HiTech]

Gator,

Thank you so much. You have always  been a gentleman towards any woman on this board. I just can imagine how many women could post here their thoughts and independent opinions contributing and helping to the board, if some other male participants (and who are not just simply participants) had the class as you have. Many men can learn from you, but some of them will not because of their alpha male ego on the verge of male chauvinism. Because of their pride those alpha males  will never admit that a woman can be right and because of their pride they will never say any words of apology, instead of that they will reject a woman's opinions that is unsuitable to their opinion with all means accusing her of ignorance, intolerance, questioning her foreign language abilities, using inappropriate slang and name calling , and more over they will try to justify their action and will be supported and justified by their alpha male brothers. They can play a role of "I'm a nice guy and brother to my brothers " on the open board, but at the same time they send their full of bitter sarcasm PMs to a woman and some of them even try secretly, behind the woman back, to inform brothers "how really the woman is bad" writing their total lies, unfortunately I also have experienced such alpha male behavior.

Yes, Gator, I can stand up for myself and you are right I should, but honestly I got tired  Smiley I'm a Russian woman and as many Russian women I have my own pride and honor to apologize and I do... But as a Russian woman and probably any woman in this World, I don't have any apology for alpha male behavior  Wink

Again thank you, Gator.
Sincerely
Olga

A gentleman should treate a woman with respect  but in no way different than how they treate everyone in general. But what is more likly, a woman who is not 100% fluent in english has miss understood a private message as being insluting to her. Or this same woman who does not 100% understand American culture and social interactions does not understand how some of her post are very insulting people, and does not clearly understand the difference between people disagreeing with her, and being insulted.

I think the foot comement was a bad choice to display frustration, but the comment was not with out a lot of provocation from you. You left him with one of 3 choices, either ignor you , fight back, or brush you aside. Because I have seen that in any debate you will always want to have the last word, and will always play the woonded duck when ever you begin to loose a debate in any way. You will very quickly pull up a straw man, search for any unrelated meens to try put the fault on other people, wrather then really want to debate a topic at hand.

Even in you post to gator which could have been a simple thank you, you again choose to bring up topics that the Admin of this board requested everone to let cool down.

In the previous thread you completly ignored Dans request and continued on as if nothing was said. Now a typical path for you would to try justify why you could continue on with the debate and hence why you thought you were justified in not taking the Admins advice.

You wish to say that women should have a free pass to ack as they wish. I for one do not believe this is the case, If a woman behaves badly as you have, I believe she should be called on the matter. And she should not be given a fee pass when she acts with no humilty as you have.

HiTech
 

[OlgaH]

A gentleman should treate a woman with respect  but in no way different than how they treate everyone in general.

Probably you are right, but look how some "gentlemen" treat each other. And why a man needs a Men's Code of Conduct looking for a woman in Russia/Ukraine/FSU, if he simply can not keep himself in the limit of the basic ethics on the open women discussion forum.

But what is more likly, a woman who is not 100% fluent in english has miss understood a private message as being insluting to her. Or this same woman who does not 100% understand American culture and social interactions does not understand how some of her post are very insulting people, and does not clearly understand the difference between people disagreeing with her, and being insulted.

HiTech, I will give you my answer based on my own example.

I guess I touch your nerve with my "thank you to Gator"    Living in America and working with my husband, communicating and having a conversation with our colleagues, friends and relatives I can tell that American culture in the sphere of ethics pretty much the same. Having the disagreements and difference in opinions with members on this board I have never used any words of personal insults and if there were misunderstandings I say my "sorry", but I have received enough personal insults from some men here when they were disagree with my opinion.   

I think the foot comement was a bad choice to display frustration, but the comment was not with out a lot of provocation from you.

Can you imagine if such guy's frustration with his Russian/FSU lady will happen behind the close door, when the lady will be thousands miles far from her home and he will throw in her face "I'd like to stick my foot in you a$$"?

I will show you another simple example: when one member posted a problem about divorcing his wife, some of members even started to question his morality "maybe he has done something to her daughter" (btw where you were at that time  with your remarks? ), that man never fell into any frustration even with such indecent remark.     

You left him with one of 3 choices, either ignor you , fight back, or brush you aside. Because I have seen that in any debate you will always want to have the last word, and will always play the woonded duck when ever you begin to loose a debate in any way. You will very quickly pull up a straw man, search for any unrelated meens to try put the fault on other people, wrather then really want to debate a topic at hand.

Before to make your allegations, read my posts that concern directly Jerry. If what he could do was just to fall into his frustration (as you call elementary rudeness) with my questions and comments, sorry, in such case he will have difficult time with any woman, no matter where she is from. Jerry had a choice to answer on my comments adequately and constructively, he chose to put his "frustration" into insults. If you are going to indulge him in his such action, you are free to do so. I'm not going to indulge any man in such his behavior. 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg167955#msg167955

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168007#msg168007

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168110#msg168110

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168123#msg168123

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168152#msg168152

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168205#msg168205

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168235#msg168235

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168292#msg168292

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168366#msg168366

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168374#msg168374

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168496#msg168496

Even in you post to gator which could have been a simple thank you, you again choose to bring up topics that the Admin of this board requested everone to let cool down.

Let cool down or let to mask and hide the problem?

In the previous thread you completly ignored Dans request and continued on as if nothing was said. Now a typical path for you would to try justify why you could continue on with the debate and hence why you thought you were justified in not taking the Admins advice.

In the previous thread I continued my typical path for me to stand up for myself, for my own woman's honor, when a man accuses a woman in ignorance and intolerance and at the same time he clearly shows his own ignorance and intolerance along with his rudeness

HiTech, you also had a choice to ignore my post to Gator, but you could not  and opened the door.   

You wish to say that women should have a free pass to ack as they wish. I for one do not believe this is the case, If a woman behaves badly as you have, I believe she should be called on the matter. And she should not be given a fee pass when she acts with no humilty as you have.

HiTech

No, HiTech, I don't say that women should have a free pass to act as they wish, I say that some members of the men's club act as they wish, and yes, HiTech, when a woman's opinions are unstable for that men's club in their understanding she behaves badly. 





 

[SMS60]

OlgaH

I'm glad you brought this up. I was going to use another thread but I can now put it here.

I read the "code of ethics" posted this morning and really did not know what to think. Nothing wrong with the code but the hypocrysy involved.

I read some of the trip reports again and really wonder about some items posted. I always question if some are real? Or made up to create traffic and arguments??

I think some people see the problems as BS and treat as is. I know GOB left because of a disagreement with this type of situation. When some people call BS they are frowned upon.

The code is not used in all situations......................

[HiTech]

Quote from: HiTech on Today at 10:02:04 AM
I think the foot comement was a bad choice to display frustration, but the comment was not with out a lot of provocation from you.

Can you imagine if such guy's frustration with his Russian/FSU lady will happen behind the close door, when the lady will be thousands miles far from her home and he will throw in her face "I'd like to stick my foot in you a$$"?

Ahh , just so I understand , you admitidly provoked Jerry and wish to say that Jerry will not do well because he reacted to your provocation?

Just so I really understand what you said, you view it as perfectly fine to provoke some one like Jerry , and then belive they should act repectfully to you when you should not respect them?

Is this the way all Russian women behave?

HiTech, I will give you my answer based on my own example.

I guess I touch your nerve with my "thank you to Gator"  Wink  Living in America and working with my husband, communicating and having a conversation with our colleagues, friends and relatives I can tell that American culture in the sphere of ethics pretty much the same. Having the disagreements and difference in opinions with members on this board I have never used any words of personal insults and if there were misunderstandings I say my "sorry", but I have received enough personal insults from some men here when they were disagree with my opinion.   

Di you really view your knowledge of what is acceptible behavior in western culture as greater than the people who were born in this culture? Do you really view your view of what is an insult greater than Jerrys?

Jerry felt insulted, but rather than apologizing you continue that attack?

HiTech



Dale

[OlgaH]

Ahh , just so I understand , you admitidly provoked Jerry and wish to say that Jerry will not do well because he reacted to your provocation?

Just so I really understand what you said, you view it as perfectly fine to provoke some one like Jerry , and then belive they should act repectfully to you when you should not respect them?

Is this the way all Russian women behave?

You can call my questions and comments to Jerry about his trip reports as a provocation.
But any man should expect there will be many questions from a woman whom he dates and tries to build a relationship, doesn't matter where she is from, to him "why?" and he should also expect to hear her opinions on his answers or his story. And any woman will make her own conclusions and decision on the base how the man gives his story, his answers and able to listen and perceive her comments, especially with some criticism,and her further questions that can even tickle his self-esteem and pride.  And if the man can only fall into frustration firing on her with his insults and accusation of ignorance and intolerance, sorry, he is not ready to date any woman.   

Di you really view your knowledge of what is acceptible behavior in western culture as greater than the people who were born in this culture? Do you really view your view of what is an insult greater than Jerrys?

HiTech, I have showed the thread to some my American friends men and women as well. Their reaction was "Poor Russian woman" and no question why men with frustration try to find a Russian bride and why they are refused, by the women even at the last moment.

Jerry felt insulted, but rather than apologizing you continue that attack?

HiTech

Dale

Insulted with my question and comments to him? See above what I have written about a woman's "Why?" and comments. I don't have any apology and accuses for a man's rudeness and impudence.   

[Admin]

OlgaH

I'm glad you brought this up. I was going to use another thread but I can now put it here.

I read the "code of ethics" posted this morning and really did not know what to think. Nothing wrong with the code but the hypocrysy involved.

I read some of the trip reports again and really wonder about some items posted. I always question if some are real? Or made up to create traffic and arguments??

I think some people see the problems as BS and treat as is. I know GOB left because of a disagreement with this type of situation. When some people call BS they are frowned upon.

The code is not used in all situations......................

SMS,

You must be referencing this post -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9122.0, which seeks to describe a "Code of Conduct" for men.

I am not sure what you mean by "the hypocrysy [sic] involved." Can you clarify?

Specifically, hypocrisy on the part of who?

Since there is the distinct possibility you may interpret my questions as baiting (they are not - I am sincerely curious), I'll also add a couple of things - for perspective:

* RWD has been trying, for many years, to encourage and promote a set of principles and ethics and integrity amongst all. It is evident in many of our past posts, and is commemorated in the following artifacts:

 - The RWD Vision (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=33) describes openly the values we hold and the values we promote, and at their core are integrity and honesty.
- Our Guidelines for Civil Discourse (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7223.0) outlines behaviors to promote civil exchange and discourse aimed at productive results.
 - In recognition of the problems of corrupt and dishonest agencies, we developed a codified set of guidelines for men and women to use in selection of an agency and is commemorated in the Agency Code of Ethics (http://www.certifiedmarriageagencies.org/index.php?pid=2).
 - Very recently, and in recognition of the huge amount of misinformation that has been spread around about cross-cultural dating and marriage, we commissioned a formal study to address many of the myths and issues that have been promoted - some by greedy agencies, and some by power-hungry politicos - the survey results can be found here -- http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p01.html
 - While we take VERY serious issue with the tenets of the IMBRA legislation, we accept it as the current law of the land, and have published tools to help folks truly understand the legislation and its impacts, found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=46

You see - there is a common theme. RWD stands for truth and integrity and we promote it whenever and wherever possible.

The Men's Code of Conduct is another data point along a well-established trend dating back to our founding.

We recognize we have no control over the actions and behaviors of others. We have only principles and a venue for promoting those principles - and we do - repeatedly.

We also recognize that sometimes people get their feelings hurt here at RWD. It has been one of the aspects of running this site that has been the most difficult for me to handle at times. I truly do not wish for people to feel hurt or injured in any way by their participation here - but it happens. And it happens partly because we DO adhere to the principles stated in the RWD Vision.

If everyone is to have the opportunity to be heard, then it stands to reason that with a membership the size of ours, not everyone will agree. When those disagreements erupt, the manner in which they are handled determines if our members are able to disagree and maintain dignity - their own as well as the other arguing parties - or not. Too often, dignity is what is attacked, and then lost.

If you, or anyone else, has suggestions for improved management of RWD, we welcome those comments in the Site Feedback forum, found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=26.0.

- Dan

[Admin]

OlgaH / HiTech / SMS60,

This is now the 2nd (or 3rd) topic that is seeing cross-over from another topic in which some members had a disagreement and I had to lock it.

Please consider that topic DEAD, and let's not pollute other parts of RWD with those sorts of cross-over posts.

If you have suggestions for RWD improvement - you are welcome to make those in the appropriate forum -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=26.0.

- Dan