IMBRA questions

[phantom]

I have some questions about the IMBRA.  When I joined the agencies, I had to fill out the IMBRA form.  Now, I have also met some women on mail.ru as well, and the one lady with the teenage daughter chats with me some, outside of the agency.  The Avar has also found me on my IM and myspace, seeming to want to move our contact away from the agency.  Which is fine, and also the aquaintance whose wife connected me with the one girl.  Now, as I'll be meeting all or some of them.  Does the IMBRA apply to the ones outside of the agency, if it works with one of them, instead of the agency women?  What if the contact started at the agency?  Just wondering on that.

[Admin]

I have some questions about the IMBRA.  When I joined the agencies, I had to fill out the IMBRA form.  Now, I have also met some women on mail.ru as well, and the one lady with the teenage daughter chats with me some, outside of the agency.  The Avar has also found me on my IM and myspace, seeming to want to move our contact away from the agency.  Which is fine, and also the aquaintance whose wife connected me with the one girl.  Now, as I'll be meeting all or some of them.  Does the IMBRA apply to the ones outside of the agency, if it works with one of them, instead of the agency women?  What if the contact started at the agency?  Just wondering on that.

phantom,

The entire IMBRA legislation can be found here -- http://www.goodwife.com/index.php?pid=14

Scroll down and look for Sec. 833 paragraph (e)(4) relating to definition of an IMB. Here is the relevant excerpt:

(4) INTERNATIONAL MARRIAGE BROKER-

      (A) IN GENERAL- The term `international marriage broker' means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the United States, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between United States citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted to the United States as permanent residents and foreign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals.

      (B) EXCEPTIONS- Such term does not include--

            (i) a traditional matchmaking organization of a cultural or religious nature that operates on a nonprofit basis and otherwise operates in compliance with the laws of the countries in which it operates, including the laws of the United States; or

            (ii) an entity that provides dating services if its principal business is not to provide international dating services between United States citizens or United States residents and foreign nationals and it charges comparable rates and offers comparable services to all individuals it serves regardless of the individual's gender or country of citizenship.

As I understand your situation, the question revolves around whether mail.ru would be considered an IMB under the terms of IMBRA.

If their principal business is not to provide international dating services, then they would not be subject to IMBRA. My understanding of mail.ru is they are primarily an email provider - but I am not certain of that.

Note that IMBRA contains explicit and implicit language to include agencies organized outside the borders of the US. In other words, foreign-based organizations are also bound by IMBRA.

One might argue the extra-territorial nature of this law, however, for the time being, it *is* the law.

The *REAL* test is when your fiance goes for her interview at the local Embassy. There, the Consular Officer is likely to inquire about whether you met through an IMB, and your response to Question 19 on Form I-129F asking the same thing. If you answer in the affirmative, then there will be the expectation that IMBRA regulations were followed.

You can find out more about the IMBRA process by clicking on this link -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=46

I hope this helps.

- Dan

[topofthekey]

what about those free personals.ru cupids and all those other online sites that don't do the IMBRA thing. Do they count as an international marriage broker?

[Admin]

what about those free personals.ru cupids and all those other online sites that don't do the IMBRA thing. Do they count as an international marriage broker?

About all I can tell you is to read the definition above. It outlines what is, and what is not, an IMB.

There are a lot of IMB's who ignore IMBRA - and at least one who trumpets their "circumvention" of IMBRA. This has worked, till now, due to lax enforcement of IMBRA as noted in GAO's report last year.

While IMBRA has enforcement provisions with possible fines and incarceration levied against the IMB - the *real* risk, IMO, is to those who would follow the counsel of the profiteering and corrupt IMB's who offer "circumvention" of IMBRA as a reason to use their 'services.' Those customers of such 'services' are likely to find themselves afoul of the law, with consequent denials and/or delays.

Every person needs to ask themselves if it is worth the risk.

- Dan

[phantom]

Thanks Dan,

That explains it and the link was very useful.  Now I understand it better, just wasn't sure about it.

[Chillidog]

Dan,

read thru IMBRA still does not make any sense to me. 

example: Allsinglerussiangirls

"lady posts a profile. I post a profile"
we exchange a couple of emails thru their "email system"
we exchange personal email address "again thru their email system" (any and all exchange of personal information is allowed on this site)
from that point forward all communication thru personal email/telephone

I can't follow if this is covered under IMBRA laws?

no one I have ever met (FSUW) has been thru an "agency". all similar to above. just unfortunatley have not gotten to the K1/CR1 stage yet to know if I am breaking this law?

this scenerio would be similar to putting a profile up on Match or Yahoo personals and then after a couple of emails exchanged deciding to correspond thru our own personal emails.

 

[SMS60]

I think the way it works is if you "pay" a "fee" to join, correspond, meet, ect it is considered a IMB. Most free sites would not be considered IMB.

Some of the sites in US are not included, like Match.com. It gets confusing.

From what I can gather it does not make a difference weather you check the yes box on the I-129F. If you are unsure check yes. I have not seen any problems from petitions checked with yes versus ones checked no.

If you want to be sure, e-mail the site you are using and inquire weather they are considered an IMB.

Save the answer and dont worry.

[BC]

no one I have ever met (FSUW) has been thru an "agency". all similar to above. just unfortunatley have not gotten to the K1/CR1 stage yet to know if I am breaking this law?

this scenerio would be similar to putting a profile up on Match or Yahoo personals and then after a couple of emails exchanged deciding to correspond thru our own personal emails.
 

Match or Yahoo are exempted from IMBRA since they serve no particular international market with destination USA.

I doubt any AM is doing anything illegal at all as long as the K1 application is honestly completed.  I did not see any criminal penalties to the applicants whether or not the agencies properly applied IMBRA.  Might be weighed in during the approval process at some time so would hate to be the first case if they do.

[Admin]

Dan,

read thru IMBRA still does not make any sense to me. 

example: Allsinglerussiangirls

"lady posts a profile. I post a profile"
we exchange a couple of emails thru their "email system"
we exchange personal email address "again thru their email system" (any and all exchange of personal information is allowed on this site)
from that point forward all communication thru personal email/telephone

I can't follow if this is covered under IMBRA laws?

no one I have ever met (FSUW) has been thru an "agency". all similar to above. just unfortunatley have not gotten to the K1/CR1 stage yet to know if I am breaking this law?

this scenerio would be similar to putting a profile up on Match or Yahoo personals and then after a couple of emails exchanged deciding to correspond thru our own personal emails.

CR-1 (IR-1) is not presently addressed by IMBRA - only K-1/K-2 and K-3/K-4 are currently addressed by IMBRA legislation.

In the example you raised - there is a two-part test.

First is whether their *principal* business is to provide introduction services between US Citizens and Foreign Nationals. Second part is - do they charge "comparable" fees irrespective of gender and country of citizenship?

If the answer to the first part of the question is 'No' - their principal business is NOT to provide introduction services for international dating - then they are not subject to IMBRA. Match is primarily focused on US dating, and only peripherally involved with international dating. Yahoo is even further distanced from a "principal" focus on international dating. I believe that is how they claim exemption from IMBRA.

Since I am not familiar with 'Allsinglerussiangirls' - I am not sure of their "principal" business focus.

Even *if* it is their "principal" business focus and the answer to the first part is 'Yes' - if they charge all participants "comparable" fees, irrespective of gender or country of citizenship - then it appears they might be granted an IMBRA exemption - though, to the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing yet as a document granting IMBRA exempt status.

I still think it comes down to the degree of risk tolerance on the part of the couple. As a customer, demanding IMBRA compliance from whomever you work with is the least-risk option - even if distasteful (as it would be for me).

Please note, I am not an attorney, so this represents my understanding of the legislation.

FWIW

- Dan

[BC]

Even *if* it is their "principal" business focus and the answer to the first part is 'Yes' - if they charge all participants "comparable" fees, irrespective of gender or country of citizenship - then it appears they might be granted an IMBRA exemption - though, to the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing yet as a document granting IMBRA exempt status.

That's the toughie.. forcing some agencies to charge their ladies the same prices as the men to enjoy exempt status.. will never happen.

In practical terms, until now, the only positive effect for a bunch of money spent writing this law is the pamphlet.. and it is even questionable if it has been published or in common use yet.

[Admin]

That's the toughie.. forcing some agencies to charge their ladies the same prices as the men to enjoy exempt status.. will never happen.

In practical terms, until now, the only positive effect for a bunch of money spent writing this law is the pamphlet.. and it is even questionable if it has been published or in common use yet.

The information brochure is NOT available yet. There was an open comment period that expired some time ago - so they managed to get a draft published, but are now (I guess) trying to incorporate comments before finalizing. Once final, it is sent by DHS to Dept of State for translating into (IIRC) at least 7 languages initially, with many others to come in future months. DoS is responsible for disseminating the brochure to the general public.

- Dan

PS. Topic about the pamphlet/brochure (including a PDF of the draft) posted here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7986.0

[Chillidog]

Since I am not familiar with 'Allsinglerussiangirls' - I am not sure of their "principal" business focus.


Please note, I am not an attorney, so this represents my understanding of the legislation.

FWIW

- Dan

Dan,

allsinglerussiangirls would be (is) similar to a ---- bride.ru or cuteonly, International/FSU dating site.

do not believe any of them charge for the women to sign up and register with their site. just the guys (Western men) looking/searching/contacting the women. and I beleive they all allow exhanging of personal information ----personal email addresses, phone numbers, home address within the email exchange on the site itself.

never seen the form I-129 (have never filed a K1). will be making a second visit to a women who our first contact was with allsinglerussingirls dating site. just trying to get as educated as I can, IN CASE there is a K1 filing in the future (my preference would be to marry in Russia, so the woman could have her friends and family involved)

[Admin]

Dan,

allsinglerussiangirls would be (is) similar to a ---- bride.ru or cuteonly, International/FSU dating site.

do not believe any of them charge for the women to sign up and register with their site. just the guys (Western men) looking/searching/contacting the women. and I beleive they all allow exhanging of personal information ----personal email addresses, phone numbers, home address within the email exchange on the site itself.

never seen the form I-129 (have never filed a K1). will be making a second visit to a women who our first contact was with allsinglerussingirls dating site. just trying to get as educated as I can, IN CASE there is a K1 filing in the future (my preference would be to marry in Russia, so the woman could have her friends and family involved)

Chillidog,

My guess - and only a guess - is that ASRG would be subject to IMBRA. They may not agree - and if it detrimentally affects their business, they will probably NOT agree - but the adjudication will come from consular authorities irrespective of the agency's opinion/position. As BC points out - and as you can see in the IMBRA flowchart - there is some question about IMBRA enforcement - but that may be moving toward resolution soon.

If you want to take a look at the I-129F, you can find it as a link from the K-1 Flowchart we recently published - found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=47.

It should give you some idea of the steps involved - and with the *other* flowchart describing IMBRA impacts, you will be better prepared than 99% of the guys if/when you decide to pursue the process.

Good luck to you,

- Dan

[SANDRO43]

allsinglerussiangirls would be (is) similar to a ---- bride.ru or cuteonly, International/FSU dating site.
do not believe any of them charge for the women to sign up and register with their site. just the guys (Western men) looking/searching/contacting the women. and I beleive they all allow exhanging of personal information ----personal email addresses, phone numbers, home address within the email exchange on the site itself.

Chillidog, I can't speak about "allsinglerussiangirls", however:

- Bride.ru: once you pay for membership, you can see any woman's (up to 29/day IIRC) email address, postal address, phone number listed in their profile. After seeing that, "exchange on the site itself" is irrelevant, since you're free to use their contact data whichever way you want.

- Cuteonly: IIRC, this is a 'pay-per-letter' agency and therefore unlikely to permit exchange of personal contact data (which I don't remember if you can 'buy').

Considering both involve some form of payment, they'd fall under the definition of IMB, and therefore under IMBRA rules, IINM .
 

[Chillidog]

- Cuteonly: IIRC, this is a 'pay-per-letter' agency and therefore unlikely to permit exchange of personal contact data (which I don't remember if you can 'buy').
 

SANDRO43

when I used "CuteOnly" in 2005/2006 (first women I visited was from this site) it was NOT a "pay-per-letter" and I beleive it hasn't changed since then. I think in 2005/2006 it was about $60 for 3 months with unlimited emailing and freedom to exchange personal info in these emails.

Sandro & Dan ---thanks, It would appear that ASRG would fall under the IMBRA.

now my next question.

Never filled out any disclosure form. What do I do now? I have already met the girl. In my next meeting  (5 weeks from now) do I bring some sort of disclosure form for her to see? If I should, where would I find such a form?

tried the follow the flow chart ----my head just spun 

[SANDRO43]

SANDRO43when I used "CuteOnly" in 2005/2006 (first women I visited was from this site) it was NOT a "pay-per-letter" and I beleive it hasn't changed since then. I think in 2005/2006 it was about $60 for 3 months with unlimited emailing and freedom to exchange personal info in these emails.

You're right, I just checked now, they say:

"No limits on contacts exchange
Other services cut email addresses from your messages to make you pay again and again. At CuteOnly, feel free to exchange any contacts!"

Anyway, as you surmised, the "$60 for 3 months" does make them an IMB, too .

[Admin]

SANDRO43

when I used "CuteOnly" in 2005/2006 (first women I visited was from this site) it was NOT a "pay-per-letter" and I beleive it hasn't changed since then. I think in 2005/2006 it was about $60 for 3 months with unlimited emailing and freedom to exchange personal info in these emails.

Sandro & Dan ---thanks, It would appear that ASRG would fall under the IMBRA.

now my next question.

Never filled out any disclosure form. What do I do now? I have already met the girl. In my next meeting  (5 weeks from now) do I bring some sort of disclosure form for her to see? If I should, where would I find such a form?

tried the follow the flow chart ----my head just spun 

Chillidog,

Most of the responsibilities lie with the IMB. They have these obligations:

(1) search sex offender public registries for information regarding the United States client;
(2) collect certain criminal and marital background information through documentation or an attestation from the United States client;
(3) provide to the foreign national client any records retrieved from the sex offender public registry search and the background information collected in her primary language;
(4) provide to the foreign national client a government-prepared information pamphlet (when available from the Department of State) about the legal rights and resources available in the U.S. to immigrant victims of domestic  violence and other crimes; and
(5) obtain the foreign national client’s signed, written consent to the release of her information to the United States client.

Your best bet is probably to ask the agency you are, or were, working with - how they comply with IMBRA to protect its customers (you and the lady).

Out of curiosity, where did the flowcharts trip you up? I was hopeful they would step a person through the process fairly simply - though, admittedly, the topic itself is far from simple.

- Dan

[Chillidog]

Your best bet is probably to ask the agency you are, or were, working with - how they comply with IMBRA to protect its customers (you and the lady).

Out of curiosity, where did the flowcharts trip you up? I was hopeful they would step a person through the process fairly simply - though, admittedly, the topic itself is far from simple.

- Dan

Dan,

I will send an email to ASRG today, and ask this question inregards to IMBRA and their site. and when I get their reponse I will post it here (it is a popular site and I know of some others who have/are meeting some women from this site) hopefully it will at least answer questions for this particullar Internt FSU dating site.

as for the flow charts and how they tripped me up ---- It was more of a situation (IMBRA flow chart) of not knowing where to start, because there was not "disclosure form" filled out when setting up my account on ASRG or in 2006 with CuteOnly, or even on RussianEuro. These are the only dating sites I have used, because of the fact that personal information can be exchanged freely and that there is no "middle man--agency" involved. I believe some sites for example--Elena's models has you fill out this IMBRA form.

So it (flow chart) is not difficult to follow when you know where to begin. but if you do not know step A then you do not know how to get to step B (if this makes sense to you). I do not think there is anything wrong with the flow charts.

just not knowing if my original contacts fell under these guidelines

[Chillidog]

sent a an email to allsinglerussiangirls on the 19th of April and I am still waiting for a response from this site.

Dan, you have avenues I might be able to try, to see if I can get answer from ASRG on there policy and procedures in regards to the IMBRA?

[Admin]

sent a an email to allsinglerussiangirls on the 19th of April and I am still waiting for a response from this site.

Dan, you have avenues I might be able to try, to see if I can get answer from ASRG on there policy and procedures in regards to the IMBRA?

Chillidog,

We have a decent relationship with many of the agencies, as they often advertise here or at GoodWife. I do not recall ASRG advertising with us, and I do not know if they are affiliated with any other agency, but can check into it and let you know.

My strong suspicion is they do not follow IMBRA, based on their non-response to your question.

BTW - you probably mis-typed the "19th of April" - did you mean January or February or ??

- Dan

[Admin]

I have seen this group before. It is a very large network of sites.

Check out this link -- http://www.allsinglerussiangirls.com/info_corporate.html

It shows some of the other sites they own.

If you check on their "About Us" page (http://www.allsinglerussiangirls.com/info_about.html), you come up with a name - Nikolay Grebnev. If you do a little digging, you can come up with their "Corporate" website -- http://www.datingandmatchmakinginc.com/, and a "Contact" page with address and phone number -- http://www.datingandmatchmakinginc.com/dmsite_50Contact-us.html.

As they have a US office, one would expect them to be IMBRA compliant.

Anyway - there is an address and email you can use to contact them and inquire.

I hope this helps.

- Dan

[Admin]

One more bit of info.

On this page -- http://www.datingandmatchmaking.com/dmsite_10About_60fur-inf.html

There is a phone number. I suspect it is for the person they claim is their "Vice President", but cannot be sure.

- Dan

[Admin]

Here is the email I sent to the emails listed on the page shown above:

Greetings!

My name is Dan, and I own the sites you find in my 'signature' below. RussianWomenDiscussion.com is the premier site for men and women involved in cross-cultural relationships from the Former Soviet Union.

One of our members at RussianWomenDiscussion.com has asked some questions about your company and IMBRA compliance.

Would you please consider joining RWD and responding to their questions? You are able to link directly to the relevant topic here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9107.0.

Regards,
 
- Dan

[Admin]

One of the three emails already returned as undeliverable.

- Dan

[Chillidog]

Dan,

thanks for delving into this. I will also do some emails to the info you provided me. and Yes, it was a "typo" --- April 19  should have been February 19, 2009. Do not know where my mind was or what I was thinking of when I typed "April"