Moscow round 2

[Sculpto]

Okay, this kind of thing is what I was talking about by growing naturally and being naturally ready for the visa.  If we are giving you cause to be overly paranoid, then get away from here for a while and focus completely on building the relationship you wish to build.  Of course, I would miss the continuing Sculpto Saga, but that would probably be the best thing you could do to get the real answers you are looking for.

I have thought about dropping out for a while.. but.. right ow I have soooo much time on my hands it is good to be able to post.

If you both can easily think the other is blowing you off, then there is something missing.  That something may grow in time, but it's not there yet. That is my point from yesterday about not being ready for the visa.

The problem is simply communication media.  When she is in tomsk she has access to her own computer and internet which she pays for, or, I have sent her $50 a couple of times also for phone and web.  There is a never a phone problem when she is in Tomsk, but, her city code is Tomsk and I think that is what is causing the problem in Moscow.  She calls me and my phone doesn't ring but later I see there was a missed call.  her SMS messages are not getting to me..  when I call her it rings and rings but there is no answer.. it is not ringing on her end.  She gets about half of my sms messages.  Before the last trip we were having the same phone problems on and off when she was in Moscow and I was a little suspicious about it, but, when I was there I saw she was having phone problems with Russian numbers too so I recognized there is a real tech issue there.

Grow the relationship. You love her and it's obvious you want to make it happen, conformity or not, so throw everything you've got into it and into her.  You can't straddle the fence without grave injury at some point. 

You are 100% correct.  There are two things that have gotten me straddling the fence.. Scott's situation and other postings from this thread.  But, when I talk to her, even when I go into the conversation with negative thoughts, her words always eliminate whatever issues I have.  For example.. her telling me she will send the Birth Cert without me asking about it.  Every time I have doubts about her it is her words that put me back on track. 

Yes, but what some are saying here is that this patience to understand her doesn't mean marry her first, THEN understand her... or do the visa, THEN understand her... be patient with her AND the process.

OK, there is a simple reason why I am not on board with this.  I think a big part of the problem is I have been single too long.  It is possible I have NEVER understood what women really want. In my life I have been fantastic at two things in relationships.. starting them and ending them.  I have not been good at keeping them going.  So, I think the reality is not that I need to understand her specifically, but, I need to understand women in general.  So, part of the patience I am trying to have is a rejection of my instincts to bolt whenever my arse isn't getting kissed. 

Way back in my art school days I had a GF that I was very into.  We had been together about a year and I was thinking I wanted to stay with her.  I asked her.. "Do you want to be an artists wife?"  She wanted to know what I meant.  I described a scenario in which she would put all her efforts into supporting and taking care of me.  The quinticential barefoot wife.  Guess what her answer was?  As I have tried to progress towards a more equal kind of relationship I have had to learn to turn my selfishness off. 

If you put everything into it, but find you are grasping straws, then you have your negative answer.  If she reciprocates long term, then your relationship will grow. 

Here you hit on exactly the point I have been trying to get across.  Each time I make an effort for her she does recognize it and reciprocate.  Most recently, when her Father died and I immediately put money on her card to get a plane ticket back to Tomsk.  She didn't ask for it.. I just did it and told her to go to the bank and then the airport.  Two days later when I spoke with her again.. "Mom said to you thanks to put me on plane"  and "I will to be with you till we dead"

Whether we are right or wrong about "A" is immaterial. If you (or her) do this in half measures, then it's a virtually guaranteed failure.  I think a full measure of effort will have the best result, one way or the other -- without the pressure of the visa on you guys. 

Honestly I don't think it is the visa that is creating pressure.  I think it is that she is accustomed to having money that she earns on her own and having security that she creates.  She is not accustomed to depending on anyone except herself.  It seems very difficult for her to accept my emotional and material support, almost like she is afraid to believe in it because once she does believe in it something will happen to make it disappear.  Clearly she has had some major disappointments in life, even at her young age, but, she is not open about what they are, with the exception of losing her Dad.  I have tried to ask her why she is so un-trusting, but, she dismisses it with the wave of a hand and just says "people bad, Russians bad".  If I ever know what the answer is to that it will most likely be a long time from now.

[Sculpto]

Maybe before you go to Tomsk, you might want to learn as much of the Russian language as possible? 

Even if things don't work out with "A", I am sure it will come in handy for you later! 

That is a good idea.  I was actually looking at Russian language courses in Moscow yesterday.  Its about $450 for 20 lessons in one week.  A bit pricy but doable.. on the home front I have posted on CL many times for langauge exchange and get a lot of response but people always seem to flake out.  I think the girls that respond are looking for a boyfriend and once they learn I have a GF already they lose interest.. not sure but its what I think.  The computer i have available right now will not run the mangolanguages site so hopefully later this week I have anew PC coming and can use that site and make sme progress.. I certainly have enough time on my hands right now to focus on that.

And to the second point.. if this doesn't work out with "A" I will not pursue another FSUW.  When I made my first trip four years ago I read some sites and forums about how much money this takes and i set a budget.. I am nearing that budget and will go over it finishing up with "A", but, if it does not work out with her I would be putting my Mexico plans into serious jeopardy to continue to go to the FSU. 

[Mishenka]

Hey Sculpto, I understand right where you are. We all need to be more positive!  The missed phone calls with skype and so many disconnects. Checking for emails that never come. Hearing her answer the phone on her side but she can't hear me, she hangs up wondering. There is only one thing more frustrating than hearing the phone ring ten times and no answer, that is hearing "allo, alllloooo Allo!" click. Bad connection. Then 4 days later when I finally get through it's "why haven't you called me!!!"  I used to hear that all the time. Technology in America is supposed to be better? Sorry, not a chance, Skype stinks. Anyone have anything better?

I think Galina has gone silent this last 10 days or so, she thinks I have gone silent. So I text and hope she is getting the message. Like you, after a few words to confirm our love, I am better after speaking with her. It only takes a few negative thoughts to discourage us.  Long distance relationships are beyond difficult. They are insane.  Like you, I go from wanting to end it to feeling more secure a few minutes into a call. Now our calls are fewer and further between. The love fires are cooling, the excitement of travel and plans for the future are fading fast. When two lovers stop communicating, love grows cold and soon,,,,,, you forget why you fell in love. You ask, what happened? nothing,  that's the problem.  Nothing happend and nothing is happening. For us who are artistic, when there is no progress in our relationships, we get the itch to move on. Thus the negative frustrations leading to wanting to end the insanity.
You can learn Russian much cheaper than 450 a week. Find a college student who needs a little extra money, you will have a better teacher and cost you next to nothing. I can ask Asya if she will spend some time with you. She is in Moscow now. She might have time to teach you. She is more fluent in English and Russian than we are. cheers,
Mishenka

[GoodOlBoy]

And to the second point.. if this doesn't work out with "A" I will not pursue another FSUW. ........ I am nearing that budget and will go over it finishing up with "A"....

Sculpto, aren't you afraid of the consequences of putting a limit (budget) on your pursuit of this relationship?

I just worry that doing so might make you stay in a "bad" situation (maybe in your mind....lack of money to move on to another RW)?


GOB

[ScottinCrimea]

I think worse than the disconnects and poor connections is that message, "The caller is not available to receive your call at the moment..."  Usually this meant that her phone battery was dead or that she had shut it off and my mind would wander to the question of why she would turn her phone off.  Was she somewhere or with someone that she didn't want to have to answer any calls?  There was always a good explanation, but the mind can certainly play tricks on you when she is so far away.

[Mishenka]

My mind wanders constantly,

Galina has a battery powered home phone also. She can't afford to pay for our calls to her mobile. She pays for internet $20 per card, it runs out, and it is shut off. They pay for phone cards the same way, when the time is up, the phone is off. With Galina, she runs out of time with all of the above, including not paying her home phone and it gets shut off. Services are always faulty in Tashkent. We have lived with it for 19 months. If she is not on skype, same storey, can't get through. many times power is shut off. We all have to be more patient and give these women the benefit of the doubt. Most the time she is waiting our call. If she is speaking to other men,,,, etc, we will eventually figure it out. In my case, I watch her son go on line, from his work and I can leave messages with him. she usually finds a way to contact me that same hour. If not i wait. What more can I do? I offer to buy her computer, send money, I gave her a new Moto Phone, she will not accept any more help from me. She wants to save all money for immigration, etc. and setting up our home here. She has become very frugal in this economy. Money is to tight to mention. What's a man to do?

[groovlstk]

We all have to be more patient and give these women the benefit of the doubt. Most the time she is waiting our call. If she is speaking to other men,,,, etc, we will eventually figure it out.

Plenty of guys "figure it out" only when it's too late.

I don't agree w/this, if she cares enough she'll make contact in some way, shape, or form.

When I lost my job after 9/11 I wrote a woman I was fairly serious with, reassuring her that I would find another within a few months. While she promised to "wait" for me and remain faithful, almost immediately she opened up communication channels w/other men. This has also happened to guys on this board whom I know personally.

If you have to delay a trip, a K1, etc., for financial reasons be very careful, particularly if you're using agencies. If there's one lesson I learned during my search, actions and results speak much louder than words and reassurances, especially for long-distance relationships.

[Shadow]

My mind wanders constantly,

Mine too. It was last seen on the highway between Berlin and Moscow. 

[Ade]

If you can't trust the one you're committed or engaged to then what are you doing in a relationship with them? If it's just your insecurities that are getting the better of you then get a grip; baseless distrust, jealousy and paranoia eat away at a relationship and will cause what you most fear.

[Sculpto]

Hey Sculpto, I understand right where you are. We all need to be more positive!  The missed phone calls with skype and so many disconnects. Checking for emails that never come. Hearing her answer the phone on her side but she can't hear me, she hangs up wondering. There is only one thing more frustrating than hearing the phone ring ten times and no answer, that is hearing "allo, alllloooo Allo!" click. Bad connection. Then 4 days later when I finally get through it's "why haven't you called me!!!"  I used to hear that all the time. Technology in America is supposed to be better? Sorry, not a chance, Skype stinks. Anyone have anything better?

I think Galina has gone silent this last 10 days or so, she thinks I have gone silent. So I text and hope she is getting the message. Like you, after a few words to confirm our love, I am better after speaking with her. It only takes a few negative thoughts to discourage us.  Long distance relationships are beyond difficult. They are insane.  Like you, I go from wanting to end it to feeling more secure a few minutes into a call. Now our calls are fewer and further between. The love fires are cooling, the excitement of travel and plans for the future are fading fast. When two lovers stop communicating, love grows cold and soon,,,,,, you forget why you fell in love. You ask, what happened? nothing,  that's the problem.  Nothing happend and nothing is happening. For us who are artistic, when there is no progress in our relationships, we get the itch to move on. Thus the negative frustrations leading to wanting to end the insanity.
You can learn Russian much cheaper than 450 a week. Find a college student who needs a little extra money, you will have a better teacher and cost you next to nothing. I can ask Asya if she will spend some time with you. She is in Moscow now. She might have time to teach you. She is more fluent in English and Russian than we are. cheers,
Mishenka

Thanks for your words Mishenka.  I hope things will work out for you.  You have a good idea about finding a private teacher while in Moscow.  It should not be difficult and I am sure I can make a lot more progress for the same money. 

STUPID PHONES!

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, aren't you afraid of the consequences of putting a limit (budget) on your pursuit of this relationship?

I just worry that doing so might make you stay in a "bad" situation (maybe in your mind....lack of money to move on to another RW)?

GOB.. I am on the verge of going over budget but the budget was planned for the finding and courting.  I am willing to make one more trip.  I do not think finances have any influence on my decision to continue pursuing "A".  There is a seperate budget allowance for bringing her over and the first two years.. I always saw that as a different process seperate from finding and courting..

It has been pointed out in many threads that finding a good FSU woman is a needle and haystack search.  I had two very costly false starts before I met "A".  Both of them were costly in finance but more importantly in emotion.  I have seen enough now to know that finding the kind of woman I want and need is even more difficult than typical.  Frankly I can not stomach a lot of the values expressed by a lot of FSUWs.  I do not believe the agency hype of familiy orientation, modesty and loyalty for one second at this stage.  It just isn't typical.  The divorce rate is high, women dump their kids on their parents and girls in mini skirts aren't modest...  Obviously there are exceptions, ut, they are not easy to find.  So, if this doesn't work out with "A" why keep searching in a place where the liklihood of finding what I seek is so slim?

Maybe I have been too Mexcianized from my years travelling there, but, I know I can find what I seek pretty easily there.  The compromise I have to make going that route is education.  In Mex it is easy to find a very modest family oriented loyal woman, but, not so easy to find one with those qualities that is also educated and has an independent spirit.  Most likely I will end up with a woman who wants to be joined at the hip and I will constantly be seeking my freedom and space.  I can make that compromise, but, it isn't my first choice.  But it is one I am willing to accept if my laundry list proves to be too long and complicated for the FSU.

[OlgaH]

She can't afford to pay for our calls to her mobile.

Does her mobile service take money for incoming calls?

When Robert called me on my mobile I paid nothing. I call my friends and relatives on their mobiles and they pay nothing. I use Union Telecard.  

[Sculpto]

If you can't trust the one you're committed or engaged to then what are you doing in a relationship with them? If it's just your insecurities that are getting the better of you then get a grip; baseless distrust, jealousy and paranoia eat away at a relationship and will cause what you most fear.

That is why consistent communication is important.  "A" is attractive enough to find a man if she wants.  Her friend "M" is gorgeous and has a ton of men.  If "A" wants a man all she has to do is go out with "M" and she will find someone.  What reassures me a lot of the time is that "A" says she isn't interested in other men and "M" has confirmed this in private, plus, "M" likes me a lot and has in several instances already intervened when language was causing misunderstandings between "A" and I and has promised to continue doing so whenever we need her.  Nevertheless, after almost three months of erratic behavior from "A" I am feeling a bit prone and on the alert for any change in her current behavior that would indicate something has changed.  Fortunately in our most recent conversations she has gone out of her way to reassure me because she knows what I am worried about.

STUPID ROLLER COASTER 

[SMS60]

Does her mobile service take money for incoming calls?

Olga this one thing I learned very quick. I could call to her and it not cost her anything for recieving my call. But I always had to pay out the wassu

[Misha]

Her friend "M" is gorgeous ... "M" likes me a lot and has in several instances already intervened when language was causing misunderstandings between "A" and I and has promised to continue doing so whenever we need her.  Nevertheless, after almost three months of erratic behavior from "A" ...

So, explain to me once more why you are with "A"? Just reading this post leads me to the conclusion that "M" is much nicer, saner and kinder than "A" 

[Gator]

I don't agree w/this, if she cares enough she'll make contact in some way, shape, or form.

I also "don't agree w/this.  However, I never communicated with someone from Tashkent. 

I called my Moscow woman almost everyday for years.  She answered 99% of the time.  Very reassuring. 

When I lost my job after 9/11 I wrote a woman I was fairly serious with, reassuring her that I would find another within a few months. While she promised to "wait" for me and remain faithful, almost immediately she opened up communication channels w/other men. This has also happened to guys on this board whom I know personally.

If you have to delay a trip, a K1, etc., for financial reasons be very careful...

Illustrates the importance that RW attach to financial security, and their perception, whether accurate or not. 

...particularly if you're using agencies.

Huh?

If there's one lesson I learned during my search, actions and results speak much louder than words and reassurances, especially for long-distance relationships.

RW feel the same, perhaps moreso because their culture has more BS.

[Sculpto]

So, explain to me once more why you are with "A"? Just reading this post leads me to the conclusion that "M" is much nicer, saner and kinder than "A" 

"M" is into very rich men and has several on her leash.  She is a good friend, nothing more.

[Gator]

"M" is into very rich men and has several on her leash.  She is a good friend, nothing more.

What is the value of having a golddigger as a good friend?

[Sculpto]

She doesn't want anything from me Gator.. and.. because "A" is not a gold digger and "M" admires and respects "A" she is able to function as a very objective and fair interpretor when needed.  I would also add that "A" teases "M" mercilessly about her manipulations of the rich men she plays with but doesn't want any part of it.

[groovlstk]

...particularly if you're using agencies.

Huh?

All of the agency women I dated, with the exception of those who joined very recently, had experience with foreign keyboard romeos, wackos, and liars. And as a result they were a lot more skeptical when guys came up with excuses as to why they couldn't be together.

[bobb]

It has been pointed out in many threads that finding a good FSU woman is a needle and haystack search.  I had two very costly false starts before I met "A".  Both of them were costly in finance but more importantly in emotion. 

I know this feeling well.  In a two year period I visited 3 different women, one at a time, during 5 visits.  One visit was a go and just see who I met.  I was tired of searching for the needle and was losing confidence in myself.  I needed a break.  I had also ignored red flags, not implying anything with this comment.  Just a general comment for the newbies.  I didn't think I would ever return.  I unexpectedly did start this search again last summer.  From what I remember absorbing from the old RWG board, and my experiences, helped me a great deal.  I feel I have found the needle.

Hearing her answer the phone on her side but she can't hear me, she hangs up wondering. There is only one thing more frustrating than hearing the phone ring ten times and no answer, that is hearing "allo, alllloooo Allo!" click. Bad connection. Then 4 days later when I finally get through it's "why haven't you called me!!!"  I used to hear that all the time. Technology in America is supposed to be better? Sorry, not a chance, Skype stinks. Anyone have anything better?

My fiancee is from Izhevsk and I call every day, sometimes twice a day, and have never had a problem getting through on her home phone or her cell.  I think I'm spending about $20/month with Nobel.com (home) and waytorussia (cell) cards in total.  We use Skype every weekend.  Our success rate with Skype is probably 3 out of 4.  Maybe Skype stinks to Tashkent, but it is OK for me to Izhevsk - 1200 kms to the East of Moscow in the Western Urals, city of around 700k.

[Mishenka]

Does her mobile service take money for incoming calls?

When Robert called me on my mobile I paid nothing. I call my friends and relatives on their mobiles and they pay nothing. I use Union Telecard.  

 Olga, in Tashkent every minute coming and going costs money on the mobile phone company she uses.  I think it might be free to receive SMS.   

Thanks
Mishenka

[Sculpto]

I figured out the phone problems..

I use Metro pcs.. local unlimited with abunch of extras for 50 a month.. their Russian international service puts MTS and Belline through two hubs.. that is what is causing the problem..

I tried allorussia.com yesterday.. about 3.4 cents a minute to cell phones in Moscow.. have to use a pin# but I connected on the first try with much better sound clarity than I was getting before..

"A" is starting a new job on Monday.. she was giggling and laughing and happy.. really nice to hear that "voice" again after so much trouble for so many months..

[Mishenka]

It is always good to hear your woman happy and laughing,,,, I haven't heard happiness from Galina in over 3 months. I will investigate the phone situation. In any case I need to change my schedule soon and stop working 12 hour days, 7 days a week or I will surely loose her. I don't have any time for a normal life. She used to call me every morning to wake me, noon to talk during my lunch hour and every night to tuck me in bed.  Now, the phone isn't ringing.

 

[Sculpto]

Now, the phone isn't ringing.

I still think you need to get on the plane even if she is saying no.  Though, if you go and she is in a bad mood it is not going to be a sweet romantic holiday.. but.. she should understand that you are serious and are going to take care of her.