Moscow round 2

[Sculpto]

Perhaps it is even more.  Some people need space, a cave to shut out the world, especially to separate from a spouse who is always there in your face.  Sculpto and his future bride (???) will be working in the same adobe where they eat, sleep and play.  It could easily become too much, especially considering the sparks that fly when these two get together.  "For better or worse...but not for lunch."

Gator gets it.  Bullseye.

[Sculpto]

I agree w/Wienerin.

It's tempting to believe this woman is simply mercurial and maybe a tiny but crazy; I believe her behavior has a much simpler explanation.

Amazing how compliant and gullible you can be. Basically, this woman can treat you any way she pleases and you may get upset about it initially but all she needs to do is pout and apologize and you eagerly cover up her tracks for her. And now she knows what card to play - no matter how badly she acts with you she can always retreat to the old "I'm scared! I read on the internet about bad American men taking Russian women away from their homes!" You're so eager to believe her that she could have told you that she moved out of your rental flat because there was a flying saucer hovering over the building, and you'd believe her and then claim your actions are the result of your being more open minded. 

So this was your way of laying down the law and refusing to be treated like garbage? You dangle an engagement ring in front of her but have the "willpower" to avoid putting it on her finger until she shows proper remorse or jumps through enough hoops to prove her love for you?  While she's pretending to play the penitent now, you can be sure she's laughing with her friends at your pathetic attempts to play tough with her.

Sculpto, before you get angry w/me, at least read what I have to say, it comes from my own experience and a genuine desire to avoid seeing you used and discarded. I hope I'm wrong about your GF and perhaps at some point in the future I'll have to admit it. I will be glad to do so. But I don't think it will come to that. Long ago, I was involved w/a Ukrainian woman whom I had strong feelings for, even though she ran hot one minute, cold the next. On my three trips to visit her, she acted almost exactly like your gf. Our first few days together were always difficult, she was silent much of the time and very irritable. Because of my feelings for her, I was eager to attribute her behavior to nervousness, cultural differences, anything except for the obvious truth that she didn't love me and in fact could barely tolerate my presence.

Much later I understood her actions - she loved someone else but had no future with him as he was married. She was often annoyed with me when we were together, probably a combination of feeling bad about betraying her lover coupled with her desire to be elsewhere. Then, like your gf, she would rally on our last two days together and drink a lot, want sex constantly, and shower me with boozy, counterfeit affection. Always just enough so that I went home thinking things were headed in the right direction.

BTW, her family was always ill when I was in town and she always had an excuse as to why I couldn't meet them. Sound familiar?

Sorry I can't be a cheerleader on this one, but there are plenty of others who will blow smoke up your popka and tell you what you wish to hear.

Groov.. you might be right.. or not, I don't know yet.  Thus I march on.

[Sculpto]

     Freedom, freedom, freedom. The main reason anyone from outside USA comes to live in USA is FREEDOM. Pre-nup's  never build trust, they take freedom and trust away. If you choose to write a pre-nup (really, what you have written is a marriage contract to try and control her) you will loose her as quickly as you found her, in a heart beat.

     This artistic woman can not be harnessed like a horse and trained anymore than you can be. You cannot put blinders on her and expect her to do as you say because it is written in your pre-nup. If she breaks the marriage contract, then what? There is no other reason to write such a thing unless to control. It won't work. Give up on the idea unless you are worth millions. Get to know her true heart. So far you have seen only what she wants you to see. These women are excellent actors. They deserve Emmy's for their performances. So far I don't see much love or trust in these past pages of posts. I see manipulation and control from both sides. The saga will continue, it is an addiction.

Marry for love, not lust. Then you won't have fear of loosing her, or have need of a marriage contract or Pre-nups. If there is any question that she really loves you, slow down and make sure. Then proceed with caution. After a year or two, think about that ring again.

As she told you, fear of controlling abusive husbands are a serious issue facing RW moving away from their homeland.  Why on earth would any woman in their right mind trade one prison for another? The ring episode? that didn't earn any points. It will backfire shortly. Eventually her fears will all sink into her mind and you will get the PMS treatment again. If not PMS, then it will be drinking or another behaviour.  Drop the idea of control and be a true leader. These women are far more cleaver than we give them credit. You may think you have control, but don't be mistaken. You will be sitting cozy in San Francisco while one night she gets a visit from an old F--k buddy and she will be telling you, she was in the mood and fell into temptation, just like she has before. The general morality in the FSU is far different than USA. It is as common for friends to have sex, as it is to go out to eat at a neighborhood restaurant. After all, as Nadya put it, " its a biological need, let's take care of it", "it's just hormones".

Women are moody on any given day for any reason. Learn to live with it or don't get involved at all. I have been with many, they all shared the same issues. Pride mixed with low self worth. Insecure but trying to show strength.  Loving, tender and caring but also can be hateful and vicious Mother Bear. Her children will come first before her husband. Make sure you can live with this.  If you can not live with the silence, the bad mood days, the bad mood weeks or months, don't get involved. They can charm the pants off you, then in a moment, frustrate you beyond your limits. They can take you from heaven to hell very quickly. They are all psychologists, or think they are. Many wear their feelings on their heart sleeves, or at least lead you to believe it, but in the end you will find it is just their personal style of mental manipulation. They are masters of it, but in the end, you wake up, your eyes are open and you see things as they really are. This is where this garden path has taken me after a dozen years of this journey. I hope you glean something from the experience spoken here. If not, maybe someone else will.

Be careful Sculpto, you only live once. Be careful.

Mishenka

Mishenka,
Very thoughtfull and well written post.  Youa re correct that the document i created is more of a marriage contract than a pre-nup.  But, we needed a framework to discuss things, specific things, that did not deserve to be left to assumption.  I was fair in how I wrote it autlining not only what I expect from her but what she can expect for me.  When we went through it she did not agree to everything, things I offered or expected, and we discussed these points and came to agreements both could live with.  I don't think there was any attempt at control on either of our parts.. on the contrary, just defining what to expect.  For example.. I asked her to iron my shirts and in exchange I would polish her shoes.. I suck at irnoing and am awesome at polishing.. and lot of other little details like that.

[TwoBitBandit]

I could have met a LOT of women at the grocery store.  Every time I went to the grocery store alone I got a lot of IOIs (indicators of interest) from women of various age groups.  At first I thought I was imagining it, but, after a few times I realized I was not.  One one occasion I observed two men in the store and how women reacted to them.  Both men were about my age.  One guy was buying alcohol and looked the better part of a drunk.  People in general were almost hostile to him and the women ignored him.  The other guy was tall and handsome and was buying wholesome healthy food.  Women kept eyeing him the same way they were eyeing me. 

Same thing on the Metro.  the IOIs were frequent and sometimes very obvious.  The more interesting ones were when the ladies would avoid direct eye contact, but, look at me when they thought I wasn't looking, and then I would look directly at them and they would "look away". 

I've also noticed that I get tons more eye contact in the FSU than in the United States.  I once discussed this with my Russian teacher and once with an interpreter I used once when I was in Russia.  Both of them told me that its was more of a cultural trait.  Looking someone in the eye on the street is considered bold or rude in the United States, but not so much in Russia.  My Russian teacher advised me not to treat it as much of a "strong IOI" over there.  It may be that the girl is just sizing up the guy on the street who doesn't look Russian rather than because she thinks he's cute.

[Mikebos32]

It generally seems to me like she has some trust issues and that you are trying to talk her into this. Also, I dont understand the contract thing. It would seem to me that two grown adults who can communicate with one another and want to be together and work together should not have to resort to this. Seems a bit more like a deal to be brokered than love to me. This whole post makes me sad a bit.

[Misha]

It could be as mundane as getting something going on ebay to developing a monetized blog or god forbid a marriage agency. 

Yes, god forbid another marriage agency  Selling stuff on Ebay can make some money, she might make a few buck with a blog (though there is a great deal of competition). However, this is still far from my definition of an "entrepreneur."

I don't know why you would even doubt that. 

Because I am a realist and believe that it is better not to paint a rosier picture than what is likely to be the case as this will lead to disappointment and possibly bitterness.

[CaptB]

Sculto,

You mentioned in your last few posts that you have seen her in in her element......the mess that is her life........and now it is time for "vacation" away from the pressures of daily life. What you do not realize is......you have been on vacation with her (in Moscow)........and it has'nt been a bed of roses.....thus far. If you really want to see her in her true element.......you don't need "another vacation".......you need to go visit her in her "true element".....which is her city of residence. My wife....other wives here associated with members of this forum.....have not had particularly easy lives......but we were never subjected to such "behavioral episodes" in their hometown.....let-alone....."on vacation".......in other parts of Russia. A vacation elsewhere (other than Russia)......can be "fun".......and "less stressful".......when you have "found" a partner. But meeting her in Moscow......was meeting her on "vacation". If that was rough....at best.....you really need to see how she is on a daily basis......in her home town. Why? Because then you have at your disposal.....all of her friends, relatives, co-workers and a lifetime of knowing her.....and how they all regard.....her. Whisking her off to SF someday......probably won't change her true character. Forums such as this are strewn with bad relationships. Many times "both" parties are to blame. RW thinking her future husband will "fall into line".......the husband thinking red flags he chooses to ignore.....will disapear.....when her feet touch US soil.............the land of milk and honey.

My wife actually changed very little after relocating to the US. She is still the same sweet, intelligent, caring, optimistic individual I met..........in her home city. Her only regret is that......unlike many of her RW girlfriends......she has been unable to mold me into the man I "could" be. But she decided along time ago......that she could accept.......the man that I was......when we met

Sculpto.......the first two times you met your girl in Moscow.......you "were"......on vacation......as was she. My wife even has several girlfriends back home.....who "never" meet guys in their hometown.....ever. They do have some nice vacations though. But that is another story.


Good Luck

Capt B

[bobb]

Sculto,
...Her only regret is that......unlike many of her RW girlfriends......she has been unable to mold me into the man I "could" be. But she decided along time ago......that she could accept.......the man that I was......when we met

A truly wise woman.  Your comment hits the nail on the head for what I consider one of the major reasons for unhappiness in relationships the world over.  The continual belief that AW, ,RW, etc. feel they can mold their man into who they think he should be.  I feel if you can't accept the person for who they are, flaws and all, then a person should seriously re-consider what they think is love.   

I honestly feel a person listens to 'advice' or opinions on a board like this without ever changing their thinking.  Unlike some topics where the originator has asked for advice, Sculpto has just told his story.

It will be interesting to see where this leads. 

The only thing I can finish with is I hope you find happiness together.

[Sculpto]

Sculto,

You mentioned in your last few posts that you have seen her in in her element......the mess that is her life........and now it is time for "vacation" away from the pressures of daily life. What you do not realize is......you have been on vacation with her (in Moscow)........and it has'nt been a bed of roses.....thus far. If you really want to see her in her true element.......you don't need "another vacation".......you need to go visit her in her "true element".....which is her city of residence. My wife....other wives here associated with members of this forum.....have not had particularly easy lives......but we were never subjected to such "behavioral episodes" in their hometown.....let-alone....."on vacation".......in other parts of Russia. A vacation elsewhere (other than Russia)......can be "fun".......and "less stressful".......when you have "found" a partner. But meeting her in Moscow......was meeting her on "vacation". If that was rough....at best.....you really need to see how she is on a daily basis......in her home town. Why? Because then you have at your disposal.....all of her friends, relatives, co-workers and a lifetime of knowing her.....and how they all regard.....her. Whisking her off to SF someday......probably won't change her true character. Forums such as this are strewn with bad relationships. Many times "both" parties are to blame. RW thinking her future husband will "fall into line".......the husband thinking red flags he chooses to ignore.....will disapear.....when her feet touch US soil.............the land of milk and honey.

My wife actually changed very little after relocating to the US. She is still the same sweet, intelligent, caring, optimistic individual I met..........in her home city. Her only regret is that......unlike many of her RW girlfriends......she has been unable to mold me into the man I "could" be. But she decided along time ago......that she could accept.......the man that I was......when we met

Sculpto.......the first two times you met your girl in Moscow.......you "were"......on vacation......as was she. My wife even has several girlfriends back home.....who "never" meet guys in their hometown.....ever. They do have some nice vacations though. But that is another story.


Good Luck

Capt B

Cap.. your post has a lot of wisdom in it, though, not entirely accurate.  Her Moscow ventures are far from being vacation, and, this last one in particular though it started off in planning to be so, the reality of her life in Tomsk superceded and she did work, have meetings, and continued on a daily basis to deal with the ongoing situation in Tomsk. 

I am the one who has been on vacation and my being in vacation mode caused her some doubts about me.  Truth is I live a pretty rushed and fairly high stress life in SF.  When I get the heck out of here I turn it off.  As an example...

The apartment we stayed in was acceptable but by no means luxurious.  It is an unremodeled and not very well maintained studio in a 17 story apartment block 40 minutes by metro from the center, plus a marshutka from the metro station.  The light switches didn't work right, the toilet was always running, some of the paint was chipping off the walls, there was dust everywhere and everything felt of overuse and neglect.  If this was my actual home I would not rest until every flaw in the apartment was repaired, fixed, rebuilt, redone, replaced.  But, on vacation, who cares... its just a place to sleep and eat.  "A" was sometimes annoyed that I seemed unmotivated, until, I explained to her that I was in fact on vacation and that my motivations were at rest and continued to explain to her if I was at home every single thing broken or worn out in the apartment would be fixed post haste.  This whole discussion surprised her and put her at ease.

I want to see her in real vacation mode because I need to know she can relax.  What I have seen so far is someone who pushes herself to the ragged edge until she is exhausted and then sleeps until she can't sleep anymore and does it all over again.  Frankly not so different from how I am here at home, but, I also make a point of enforcing some relaxation every day and every week.  She does not appear to do so, nor do her friends, except when they get together to drink once a week or so.  They all made fun of Americans having it so easy...

[Sculpto]

It generally seems to me like she has some trust issues and that you are trying to talk her into this. Also, I dont understand the contract thing. It would seem to me that two grown adults who can communicate with one another and want to be together and work together should not have to resort to this. Seems a bit more like a deal to be brokered than love to me. This whole post makes me sad a bit.

Mike.. yes you are right.. she has trust issues.  I do not think I am trying to talk her into something though.  We want to be together but there are obstacles and I am the stronger of the two of us in finding the path to overcome the obstacles.  "Aint no mountain high enough" would be my attitude whereas she seems more prone to getting knocked around by life.  I think that goes to one of the main cultural differences between Americans and maybe everyone else on the planet.  Maybe we are fools for it, but, we always believe we can change/fix/make better the situation, no matter how bleak, whereas it seems people from many other cultures will nto do so and just seem resigned to not getting what they want from life because "you can't change things". 

I should probably elaborate more on the "contract".

The idea of putting things on paper started becasue she somehow got the idea in her head that as soon as she arrived on American soil I would have her as a "barefoot wife" cooking and cleaning and keeping her hidden from the world.  I am pretty sure she got this idea from the woman she knows in Tomsk and who knows, maybe she found AD forum.. or some other forum where such things are discussed. 

We got stuck on this point for the first two days of my being in Moscow.  Every single conversation returned to this theme and she kept insisting that she is not this kind of woman who will be at home cooking and cleaning and waiting for her husband to come home and give her attention.  No matter what I said to re-assure her that was the furthest thing from my intentions she would not believe it, so, finally I said, "Ok, I will put it on paper and sign it.. that I will NEVER make you into a barefoot wife".  Then, once I started writing I couldn't stop.  (are any of you surprised by that?) 

When we went through the list togehter it was actually the most fun we had talking the entire trip.  She added and deleted stuff.. I added and deleted stuff.. but.. by the end of it there was definitely a much deeper understanding on both our parts of who the other was and what the other expected and was willing and/or able to give.  Both of us were surprised many times during the conversation about a lot of little details that either one of us might otherwise take for granted. 

Even the simple taking off of the shoes turns out to be more complicated than I expected.. I can have my shoes off and wear socks around the house, no slippers.. but, if I went out on the enclosed patio I must put on the slippers.. in general she was not at all happy if I was barefoot and would always insist I put on the socks.. but.. those socks better not ever touch the bed... anyway.. do you get my point now and why the "contract" came about?

Here is another example.. I had noticed on both trips that she was sometimes less affectionate when there was company.  If it was just "M" she was normal, but, if there was a larger group absolutely no PDA.  I am not a big fan of PDA, but, a little can be nice, especially if drinking and feeling "warm".  The night of the 9th during the party I asked her to come sit with me.. she gave me a look and all the other girls gave me a look.. then a flurry of rapid conversation in Russian.  Finally I interupted and asked what was being discussed.. it was "M" that answered as her English is better than "A"..

"Eric, we talk about the mentality of men and the difference of culture"

'What do you mean?'

"For Russians it is not common for the couple to show feelings in front of guests"

'Really?  I didn't know about that'

then "A" says.. "Ereek, when you will to read about Russian culture?"

'Where do you think I am going to read about such a custom as you describe, and, in my mentality I will break every rule such as this because such rules do nothing to make people happy'

"A" yes you right but I Russian and you guest in Russia"

[Misha]

I am the stronger of the two of us in finding the path to overcome the obstacles.

Desperation?

Maybe we are fools for it, but, we always believe we can change/fix/make better the situation

The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Some things can't be changed IMHO.

"For Russians it is not common for the couple to show feelings in front of guests"

Feelings? Maybe they won't neck in front of guests, but I can't see whey they would not show "feelings." Why would she not want to sit besides you? Perhaps she is not showing any because she does not really have any?

[Sculpto]

Yes, god forbid another marriage agency  Selling stuff on Ebay can make some money, she might make a few buck with a blog (though there is a great deal of competition). However, this is still far from my definition of an "entrepreneur."

Because I am a realist and believe that it is better not to paint a rosier picture than what is likely to be the case as this will lead to disappointment and possibly bitterness.

Misha.. this girl is really independent and making good money at her young age right now in Russia.. enough to support her Fathers family and have money to spare.  I have seen how she works and she is obsessive, determined and focused.  The best example I can give here is her progress in English.  When we first started chatting she couldn't speak English at all and used an online translator as did I.  In one year she taught herself quite passable English, on her own, from chatting with me, though, her accent needs a lot of work she has a good vocabulary and she did it without any help from anyone except me and it was not like I was trying to teach her English at the time.

If she decides she is going to do something, be it ebay vending, becoming a matchmaker, blogging or anything else I am quite sure not only will she do it but she will have success at it.  In fact, she does not understand recreation very well.. her opinion right now is.. why do something if it doesn't make money... I have a lot of hobbies.. do lots of things purely for my soul.. for the time being this is completely lost on her and is in fact another reason I want to take her out of Russia for our next meeting.  

In Mexico I learned the art of "nothing".  The ability to just be still and be at peace with oneself and ones surroundings.  When I am here in SF it is VERY difficult for me to do so.. I have a lot on my plate and there is a lot to do, be it professional or hobby, I am always busy.  But, as I said in another post.. I also make a point of turning it off for some period of time every day and at least one whole day every week.  I didn't always and before I learned to do so I was not a very happy person.  I see the same defect in her and would like to help her find a path to a more balanced life.  She might not accept or embrace what I want to show her and that would in fact be a more significant negative than a lot of other things that have happened.

Here is a story about something that happened once when my father came to visit me in Mexico and why I am a bit obsessed with this topic.  My father is the prototypical alpha male.. hyper competetive, stubborn and angry most of the time.   He wanted to come visit me in Mexico but dad doesn't do rustic.. so.. I arranged for us to stay at a very special, magical jungle lodge.  This is a place where the jungle is trimmed back into a veritable garden that attracts tons of wild animals.. it is a garden of eden.  Well.. it also happens that the service tends to be VERY slow and Dad is one of those guys who demands on the spot service.  They didn't bring his drink fast enough.. he got angry and yelled at the poor waitress.. poor girl working 15 hours a day for $75 a month and my jackass father yelled at her.  Well.. it wasnt three minutes before the owner of this place came over.. the owner is a personal friend.. "What is the problem Senor?"  Jackass Dad yells at him too.. friend quietly just walks away without even responding.  Dad gets even more angry and stomps off to his cabin.  A short while later the owner of the hotel comes to my cabin and asks us to leave his hotel.. "Eso no se vale aqui"  This is not valid here... can you imagine the rage Dad went into when I informed him that his behavior got us kicked out of the hotel?  

I need to know my "A" can let things go.  If she can't that would be a defect I can not live with and would be just cause for me to end the relationship.  I can live with her being obsessed and workaholic most of the time.. but.. I need to know she can turn it off and just have fun, without alcohol.

[Sculpto]

Desperation?

how about dedication, determination, commitment... desperation really is not part of the equation no matter how much you want to think it is..

[quote author=Misha link=topic=9139.msg173933#msg173933
The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Some things can't be changed IMHO.
[/quote]

Misha.. have you ever invented anything that didn't exist before?  Have you ever created something against all odds?  Have you ever aspired to do the impossible?  Frankly, you are not the kind of person that would make it to the top of Everest from what you just said and that is fine for you.. but not for me.

[quote author=Misha link=topic=9139.msg173933#msg173933
Feelings? Maybe they won't neck in front of guests, but I can't see whey they would not show "feelings." Why would she not want to sit besides you? Perhaps she is not showing any because she does not really have any?
[/quote]

Or perhaps me wanting to sit there with my arm around her made her uncomfortable.  When at other times she was sitting next to me and there were long periods of Russian conversation she always put her hand on top of mine, said, "wait, we will to speak in Russian, after I will to say to you"

[Misha]

Sculpto, keep in mind that 179-or-so people have climbed climbing Everest  :evil:

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, keep in mind that 179-or-so people have climbed climbing Everest  :evil:

I am not sure what you mean.. was that a typo?  Did you mean 179 people have died climbing Everest?  If so.. what is your point? 

[Ade]

"A" was sometimes annoyed that I seemed unmotivated, until, I explained to her that I was in fact on vacation and that my motivations were at rest and continued to explain to her if I was at home every single thing broken or worn out in the apartment would be fixed post haste.  This whole discussion surprised her and put her at ease.

I don't really understand what you mean by "unmotivated" in this context Sculpto. Can you explain a little what sort of "motivations" she was talking about? Was she talking about your ambitions or something else?

Here is another example.. I had noticed on both trips that she was sometimes less affectionate when there was company.  If it was just "M" she was normal, but, if there was a larger group absolutely no PDA.  I am not a big fan of PDA, but, a little can be nice, especially if drinking and feeling "warm".  The night of the 9th during the party I asked her to come sit with me.. she gave me a look and all the other girls gave me a look.. then a flurry of rapid conversation in Russian.  Finally I interupted and asked what was being discussed.. it was "M" that answered as her English is better than "A"..

"Eric, we talk about the mentality of men and the difference of culture"

'What do you mean?'

"For Russians it is not common for the couple to show feelings in front of guests"

'Really?  I didn't know about that'

then "A" says.. "Ereek, when you will to read about Russian culture?"

'Where do you think I am going to read about such a custom as you describe, and, in my mentality I will break every rule such as this because such rules do nothing to make people happy'

"A" yes you right but I Russian and you guest in Russia"

Well, my fiancée disagrees strongly with the above. She says that it's not true generally especially in your girlfriends age group and particularly when among friends in a private apartment. Yes, maybe some wouldn't be much into PDA among total strangers in a café somewhere but even that is quite common these days with younger people. Maybe those with Armenian backgrounds differ? Did all her friends have this background?

[Shadow]

Here is another example.. I had noticed on both trips that she was sometimes less affectionate when there was company.  If it was just "M" she was normal, but, if there was a larger group absolutely no PDA.  I am not a big fan of PDA, but, a little can be nice, especially if drinking and feeling "warm".  The night of the 9th during the party I asked her to come sit with me.. she gave me a look and all the other girls gave me a look.. then a flurry of rapid conversation in Russian.  Finally I interupted and asked what was being discussed.. it was "M" that answered as her English is better than "A"..

"Eric, we talk about the mentality of men and the difference of culture"

'What do you mean?'

"For Russians it is not common for the couple to show feelings in front of guests"

'Really?  I didn't know about that'

then "A" says.. "Ereek, when you will to read about Russian culture?"

'Where do you think I am going to read about such a custom as you describe, and, in my mentality I will break every rule such as this because such rules do nothing to make people happy'

"A" yes you right but I Russian and you guest in Russia"

If you would ask her to 'make out' in public it might be different, but to sit together as a couple is not against Russian culture.
MrsShadow never had a problem in showing her affection for me in public.

[GoodOlBoy]

Here is another example.. I had noticed on both trips that she was sometimes less affectionate when there was company.  If it was just "M" she was normal, but, if there was a larger group absolutely no PDA.  I am not a big fan of PDA, but, a little can be nice, especially if drinking and feeling "warm".  The night of the 9th during the party I asked her to come sit with me.. she gave me a look and all the other girls gave me a look.. then a flurry of rapid conversation in Russian.  Finally I interupted and asked what was being discussed.. it was "M" that answered as her English is better than "A"..

"Eric, we talk about the mentality of men and the difference of culture"

'What do you mean?'

"For Russians it is not common for the couple to show feelings in front of guests"

'Really?  I didn't know about that'

then "A" says.. "Ereek, when you will to read about Russian culture?"

'Where do you think I am going to read about such a custom as you describe, and, in my mentality I will break every rule such as this because such rules do nothing to make people happy'

"A" yes you right but I Russian and you guest in Russia"

RED FLAG Sculpto.

When a woman doesn't want to be near you with her friends around and doesn't want you to visit her hometown (after how many trips to Russia now?) something is wrong!!!

I asked my wife about this girl not wanting to sit next to you (when she is around her friends) nonsense and Marina said "Something wrong Rick".

My wife is a VERY traditional Siberian woman and she never behaved like this when I stayed in Omsk for 3 months.

She ALWAYS let everyone around us know that I was there with HER and seemed to be proud of it.


GOB

[GoodOlBoy]

.... While she's pretending to play the penitent now, you can be sure she's laughing with her friends at your pathetic attempts to play tough with her.

Probably true.


GOB

[Misha]

I am not sure what you mean.. was that a typo?  Did you mean 179 people have died climbing Everest?  If so.. what is your point? 

Yes, I did mean that 179 people have died climbing Mount Everest or roughly 10% of all who set out to climb the mountain. The point is simple. You wrote: "Frankly, you are not the kind of person that would make it to the top of Everest from what you just said and that is fine for you.." I am reminding you that climbing Mount Everest is a risky proposition even under the best of circumstances, and that if you do foolish things while climbing Mount Everest you are that much likelier to die. Now, if this woman is your Mount Everest, I am using your own metaphor to remind you that undertaking risky activities without thinking rationally may lead to your death, maybe not physical death, but perhaps emotional death.

[groovlstk]

I am the one who has been on vacation and my being in vacation mode caused her some doubts about me.  Truth is I live a pretty rushed and fairly high stress life in SF.  When I get the heck out of here I turn it off.  As an example...

There you go again, blaming yourself for her bad behavior.

I had noticed on both trips that she was sometimes less affectionate when there was company.  If it was just "M" she was normal, but, if there was a larger group absolutely no PDA.

Like GOB said, this is a red flag the size of a football field.

"For Russians it is not common for the couple to show feelings in front of guests"

This is hogwash, but your gf has learned from her past experience and knows she can bamboozle you by trotting out the cultural differences card. You're blind to the truth and she knows it.

[Wienerin]

Sculpto , from what you've been writing about yourself and your girlfriend, you're not going to conquer any Everests any time soon... Everest can be at peace on this account

As to dedicated achievements, - try raising two kids, give them whatever makes for a happy childhood, give them education - anguages, music, books, theater, sports, professions, - and all on a soviet reseacher salary (with 2-3 extra jobs from office cleaning to transalting-interpreting, editing and doing patent experise on the side), working 12-14 hrs a day (or night, when the children were put to bed), getting two MS and 2 PhDs on the way, etc., etc., etc. - not forgetting constant struggle with discrimination, as a woman and as a Jew, - and then we'll talk about your everests, OK?   

And don't, please try to explain or rationalize your and your GF' behavior and decisions. These are NOT rational, and not a common occurence. In fact IO've only met one girl in Russia who was somewhat alike to your girl - moody, irrational, lying (yes, lying - which you confirmed to me time and again) all the time about her family, acquaintances, jobs, achievements, etc. Whatever. All the while partying/drinking hard enough - so it was a wonder where did she find time and stamina to do all these other things she were boasting about.

Supporting her family (OK, the father is sick - but he has aither his salary if he isn't retired or a pretty decent pension. But what about he mother and siblings, aren't they working? What about her "Armenian" family - Armenians are very clannish?) on a freelance reporter's to a provincial nespaper wages? Working and studying in the university - and spending weeks or even months in Moscow doing nothing? Come on, do not insult our intelligence.

As to her reasons for you never coming to Tomsk, even having a wedding in Moscow - bullshit! Especially as she seems to have acquainted with you already all of her family and friends, except Papa. All the other stuff she's selling you is minor - like Russians not approving engaged couple sitting together or - horror of horrors - putting an arm around
your fiancee. This was just a pack of lies, - and I cannot even fathom a reason for this one... Maybe nobody knows you're a fiancee of hers? You do not know what they're are talking about in Russian before you (THIS IS incredibly rude by any standard, even Russian, believe me), do you?

The "contract" for ironing shirts, etc. (has SF run out of Chinese laundries, I wonder?) - is so pitiful, that I won't even comment on this. Two kindergarten kids playing mama and papa...

[Misha]

My father is the prototypical alpha male.. hyper competetive, stubborn and angry most of the time.  

Dad gets even more angry and stomps off to his cabin.  

I need to know my "A" can let things go.  I can live with her being obsessed and workaholic most of the time.. but.. I need to know she can turn it off and just have fun, without alcohol.

Maybe its just me, but based on your description, it seems that your girlfriend has a very similar personality to your father: stubborn, angry, prone to fits of temper ....

[Daveman]

RED FLAG Sculpto.
 ....
She ALWAYS let everyone around us know that I was there with HER and seemed to be proud of it.


GOB

Absolutely true... without a doubt.  With the FSU ladies I have dated, all were not only very affectionate, and proud to be with me, but even a teeny bit more affectionate/possessive when their friends were near.  "You can look but he's MINE" kind of thing.  Not really more affectionate I guess. It's difficult to explain but easy to observe.

IMO, another possible red flag is related.  She seems to want/have her friends present almost all the time, seemingly to avoid the alone/intimacy time.  All of the ladies I dated introduced me to their friends, and we hung out a little with everyone together, but they didn't want them hanging around much at all.  They all preferred our alone time.  This lady seems to always want her "friends/drinking buddies" around to deflect the alone time. IMO, that could be a significant piece of information.  It would be for me anyway. 

Sculpto, for someone who claims to be experienced with women, you really are going way out into planetary orbit to rationalize away all the obvious, portent laden, neon covered billboards warning you of impending demise.  You can hammer that square peg all day long, but it will never fit and eventually, it's going to break.

I understand you truly believe your situation is different because you are "different".  You are deluding yourself. The artistic colors of the palette might vary, but the portrait is the same. This lady:

A) Is not really into you
B) Is not ready for marriage
C) Does not even come close to fitting with you.  Almost every detail you write indicates that you are not happy with exactly the way she is, but want to "teach" her to understand that she must be different (e.g., relax, love nature)

I really wish I could give some words of encouragement on this but I really can't other than to say I hope we are all full of crap and somehow a miracle will occur.

I like you Sculpto.  You are an interesting fellow and probably a blast to hang out with.. I hope you'll wake up from this fantasy land and stop doing "The Bad Thing" (mentioned several pages ago).

[JR]

SCULPTO,
The way she is now is the way she will be when you are married. From the brief glimpses you have shown us of the both of you, as a couple you don't mix well. So the question you must ask yourself in a completely detached way is this: "Do I want to spend the rest of my life with this behavior?" Leopards don't change their spots. It is unfair of you (and completley unrealistic) to even think things will change once you two are married.
Your decision, choose well because it isn't practice and the ramifications are real, serious and lasting.